- This topic has 18,300 replies, 268 voices, and was last updated 1 year, 1 month ago by
.
- Posts
i wish most of us here will come to realize the mystery of the trinity. firstly i strongly believe that God has so many hidden secrets that will only be revealed to us when we want to trust him and throw away our religious beliefs. i will not waste time but tell you this, the Holy spirit is not a third person in trinity, even if 3 bears witness, it dont mean the 3 are the same. i strongly believed in Holy Ghost, Jesus and God as trinity bcos i was brought up that way (religious).But this day i didn’t know why God took me there but He said my son, you are a part of trinity. I know it sounds crazy but just give me a minute.Jesus never said any where in the bible that the Holy Spirit and him are one and the same. But if you will remember this, through out the bible He does not fail to say “my Father and I are one and the same”. Bfor Jesus departed, He fully revealed the plan of His father as we read john17:21-23 the true meaning of TRINITY.now where is the part the Holy Ghost is playing? it leads us to ask again, who is the Holy Ghost?. the Holy Ghost is the spirit of the Father. it is the power of God bringing these 3 together, man ,Jesus and the Father. Jesus came to us thru mary by the power of the Spirit. Jesus went back to God by the same power. Man is reconciled back to God thru Jesus by the power of the same Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the Joining power or factor of these 3 in one. The plan of God was to make man be a part of Him. God is a family God. without man the purpose of the God Head ids not complete. pray, remove religion from your heart and ask God to reveal the mystery of the trinity to you. the fact that it has been a misconception all these ages dont mean it will not be known some day. if you have any more questions about the trinity, u can contact my email, johz772yahoo.com. THANKS
I agree with some of the points you have made here. However, why do we need to even use the word “Trinity” when no one used it in scripture.
Why can’t we just teach that which is revealed in scripture. Why do people feel the need to rehash the Trinity over and over again.
We don’t need that word because it is irrelevant. We know God is one and we know that he wants to be one with us just as he is one with Jesus Christ and Jesus is one with him.
Why can’t we just leave it alone and believe it as it is written?
the word TRINITY i dont really know where it comes from. it could hsve even been from a roman catholic paganism interference but the fact still remains that God must be glorified. bible saya, He uses the foolish things of this world to com-found the wise. the wisdom of God is more than the wisdom of men. if i may say this, the word trinity never appears anywhere in the bible , i was thinking if it came from roman paganism then the pope was trying to make himself a mediator between God and man. how? if we say Father, Son and Holy Spirit, then we must need a mediator to reach them, which if im not wrong, the pope was the perfect mediator. the pope claims to be Gods representative on earth. so we need him to connect to God. and our God is so wise, that is why He made sure He said,I have said that you are gods bcos, gods begat gods and Jesus said, Father, that they may they all be one, as you are in me and I am in you , may they also be in us. these are the direct words of Jesus himself not paul or some other disciples. there are so many religious beliefs that are not scriptural and we dont talk about it bcos we have been blinded by it. do you know why the jews killed Jesus? john 19:7, simply bcos He came to reveal the truth that was not hidden but was in the heart of their religion but would take a man that has the mind if God to understand it. for us to receive a revelation from God we must be a people that can be broken, bcos even Jesus Himself was broken for us. but i thank God for that word trinity bcos it has kept a consciousness of something in the minds of men that had become a puzzle but yet a reality, that there is a need for us to know who and what we are to oue heavenly Father. thanks
Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 02 2012,12:38) Mike, Do you have something that clearly says demons are fallen angels? Do you have something that clearly says Beelzebub is satan?
How about this passage?Mark 3
22 And the teachers of the law who came down from Jerusalem said, “He is possessed by Beelzebub! By the prince of demons he is driving out demons.”23 So Jesus called them and spoke to them in parables: “How can Satan drive out Satan?
It seems clear to me that Satan is Beelzebub, who is the prince of the demons. (Luke 11:18 makes it even more clear.)
In Rev 12:9, we are told about “Satan and his angels”. Do you suppose Satan has angels AND demons under his rule? And that they are two different kinds of created being?
Who are “the sons of God” in Job 1:6?
Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 02 2012,12:38) I understand that demons are false gods.
Where in scripture are they called “false” gods?Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 02 2012,12:47) Where does Pharaoh call Moses 'a god?' 
It was JEHOVAH who said he would make Moses a god to Pharaoh. I was pointing out that, FROM PHARAOH'S VANTAGE POINT AND RELIGIOUS BELIEFS, seeing the signs and wonders “Moses” did, he most likely DID consider Moses to be a god. Especially when Moses said, By this you will know that I am Jehovah: With the staff that is in my hand I will strike the water of the Nile, and it will be changed into blood. Looks like Jehovah not only made Moses a god to Pharaoh, but He actually made him JEHOVAH to Pharaoh! 
(Boy, I bet you wish with all your heart that scripture would have been about Jesus, and not Moses. 
Since it is about Moses, you can use your common sense and understand Moses as a representative of Jehovah. But, if it would have been about Jesus, all that common sense would have gone right out the window in your zeal to proclaim it as a “JESUS IS GOD ALMIGHTY” proof text. ) Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 02 2012,12:47) Quote (mikeboll @ 64) Now WE all know it was Jehovah doing the acts THROUGH Moses and Aaron – just like we all know it was Jehovah doing the signs and wonders THROUGH His holy servant Jesus. Jehovah, the Lord of lords is Jesus.
So to you, the following scripture…………
Acts 2:22
Men of Israel, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know.…………… was speaking about “God Almighty the Son” doing miracles, wonders and signs through “God Almighty the Son”?
Kathi, sometimes you're just too much.
Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 02 2012,12:47) Regarding Pss 138:1 you said: Quote (mikeboll @ 64) And who are they? Men? Angels? Read the article!
I might some day read that article – if I get the chance. But I'm more interested in how YOU explain your belief in these created gods who are not angels.Are you unable to explain it all by yourself?
Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 02 2012,12:48) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 01 2012,17:03) Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 01 2012,14:37) Do you deny that the God of gods and the Lord of lords that the God of gods sent are one? Yes or No?
Yes. Now what?
Mike,
Are you asking me or your conscious?
You. I was assuming you were about to tell me how all this proves Jesus is “Jehovah Jr.”, or whatever.Let 'er rip.
Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 02 2012,12:55) All you have 'painstakingly' explained is that being one in them is the same as being one with them. However in the post that I quoted you said that disciples are not one 'in' them.
Is Jesus one “IN” the Father? Or is he one “WITH” the Father?Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 02 2012,12:58) Mike, I have the NT to show that Jesus is the Lord of lords and our one Lord with the Father who is our one God. According to your logic, the Son could be alone the God of gods and the Lord of lords. 1 Cor 8:6 confirms that there are two who are meant, and they are one.
Kathi, after all this time, you are now left with NOTHING to support your claim that Deuteronomy 10:17 MUST be talking about some “echad unity God”, for you have already acknowledged that it could just as well have been speaking about ONLY the Father being the God of gods AND the Lord of lords – because the Father IS both of those things, right?And 1 Cor 8:6 says nothing about them being “one”. It lists a hierarchy of those who rule over us: God being the highest, and the one He made Lord being the next in line. This understanding is CLEARLY explained, BY THE SAME AUTHOR, in 1 Cor 11:3.
These were from a post you overlooked:
1. Well Kathi? WERE the original disciples of Jesus Christians or not?
2. And DO you worship “God Almighty the Servant of God Almighty” along with worshiping “God Almighty the Master of God Almighty the Servant of God Almighty”?
Quote (t8 @ Nov. 19 2012,08:23) Okay then that means that you have no choice but to believe as I do, that the only true God is the Father and the only true God sent his son who is not the only true God.
Why?Because the one true God sent his son.
1) One true God must be the Father
2) The son must be Jesus Christ.Pretty simple I would have thought.
What weird explanation can you come up with to try and hide this simple truth?
It will be interesting at least to see what length you will go to here.“This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
If you believe this scripture, then you to believe that the Father is the one true God who sent his son Jesus into the world.
Jesus has a God and that God is my God.
And all the Trinitarians said: “Same with us, BUT, Jesus is the one true God too”.
And what does “yes, but” really mean?
Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 28 2012,17:04) Quote (t8 @ Nov. 17 2012,05:58) Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 17 2012,10:26) t8-
Where does scripture say that the judges were theos?
Where have men been called theos?
Where are angels called theos?
FatherEphesians 1:3
Praise be to the God (theos) and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ.Son (Not sure about this one as it could be easily referring to both the Father and the son.)
John 20:28-29
28 Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God! (theos)”
29 Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”Judges/Men
John 10:34
Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, `I have said you are gods (theos)’A quote from here: Psalms 82:6
“I said, `You are “gods” (elohim); you are all sons of the Most High.’Angels
Psalm 97:7
All who worship images are put to shame, those who boast in idols; worship him, all you gods (Elohim)!
Quoted in Hebrews 1:6
And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says, “Let all God's angels worship him.”I can't see a scripture of them being called “theos”, except for Satan if you consider him an angel, albeit a fallen one. Angels are certainly called elohim. Translators often translate elohim as theos, and OT quotes of elohim often come out as NT theos. The instances of where angels are called elohim, they use the word angel instead, probably because it is more precise.
Satan
2 Corinthians 4:4
The god (theos) of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God (theos).Some say that this is not Satan but YHWH because Satan is not a God. But YHWH is the elohim of the Earth, not the world and Satan is a god and a father too.
Idols
Exodus 20:23
Do not make any gods (Elohim) to be alongside me; do not make for yourselves gods (Elohim) of silver or gods (Elohim) of gold.Elohim as it is related to idols is translated at idols and not theos from what I can see.
I replied to your 'scriptural proofs' with this:Quote You replied with verses that do not specifically say that judges were theos, or men were theos, or that angels were called theos. So you need to find other verses that do say this or change your views here. Implications are not acceptable because they are subjective. you, t8, then replied with this:
Quote The scriptures I gave are very clear. I will compose that post again about Jesus saying “Ye are theos” when he was quoting “ye are elohim, ye are sons of the Most High”.
And the scripture that talks about angels being called gods.
But for now, I want to tell you that you are wrong about YHWH being the God of this world. It is Satan who is the ruler of this world. Have you not read where Satan offered Jesus the position to rule the kingdoms that were under his rule. He even said they were his and he could give them to whomever he wanted. (something like that, haven't got time to check).
It sounds to me that you are denying that Satan is the ruler of this world because you believe that YHWH is the ruler of this world. Is that correct?
Well, the verses that you gave for theos being the Father and the Son are clear but not the angels or men.
You claim that John 10 is quoting Psalm 82 and you are correct but Psalm 82 does not say that God is speaking to men anywhere in the verse you quoted as a proof that men are called theos or even elohim. I realize that some teach this but literally, it does not clearly teach this. Try again.
Your claim that Psalm 97:7 is quoted in Hebrews 1:6 is not true. They just have the same truth that all will worship Jesus, gods and angels.
Regarding satan…please define 'world' for me. Wouldn't that mean all people? Isn't all people summed up in all Jews and Gentiles? The Bible tells us that God, not satan, is the God of both the Jews and the Gentiles.
Regarding idols, yes they are referred to as gods who are said to be not gods really at all.
So, do you have any real proof texts that say angels or men are called theos?
It might cut down on your time if you simply read this about John 10, Psalm 81:
Read this and see what you think:
When you get to the link, click on 'Jesus, John 10 and Psalm82.'
Bump for t8Quote (t8 @ Nov. 27 2012,05:53) Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 27 2012,16:45) Quote (t8 @ Nov. 26 2012,19:56) What 3 scriptures. Please post them in one post.
I haven't got time for hunting right now.
t8,
The three scriptures that I have already shown you are:Heb 1:8
But of the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom.For the Greek article, see:
http://interlinearbible.org/hebrews/1-8.htmActs 20:28
Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God, which he obtained with his own blood.For the Greek article, see:
http://interlinearbible.org/acts/20-28.htmJohn 20:28
Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!”For the Greek article, see:
http://interlinearbible.org/john/20-28.htm
thanks kathi. I will reply later as I can't reply in a matter of a few minutes. It is late now, but acknowledging that I have seen this.
Bump for t8Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 05 2012,19:42) Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 02 2012,12:38) Mike, Do you have something that clearly says demons are fallen angels? Do you have something that clearly says Beelzebub is satan?
How about this passage?Mark 3
22 And the teachers of the law who came down from Jerusalem said, “He is possessed by Beelzebub! By the prince of demons he is driving out demons.”23 So Jesus called them and spoke to them in parables: “How can Satan drive out Satan?
It seems clear to me that Satan is Beelzebub, who is the prince of the demons. (Luke 11:18 makes it even more clear.)
In Rev 12:9, we are told about “Satan and his angels”. Do you suppose Satan has angels AND demons under his rule? And that they are two different kinds of created being?
Who are “the sons of God” in Job 1:6?
Mike,
If you believe that in Mark 3 Beelzebub is satan, then you must say that the demons are also satan. No mention of fallen angels here.Regarding Rev 12:9, satan has the fallen angels and demons under his influence but only because God allows it for now.
From what I am learning about demons, they are the disembodied spirits of the nephilim.
Regarding Job 1:6…the 'sons of elohim' are created celestial beings.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 05 2012,19:44) Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 02 2012,12:38) I understand that demons are false gods.
Where in scripture are they called “false” gods?
What does it matter if the words are used specifically? If you believe they are true Gods then you have a dilemma on your hands don't you?Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 05 2012,20:03) Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 02 2012,12:47) Where does Pharaoh call Moses 'a god?' It was JEHOVAH who said he would make Moses a god to Pharaoh. I was pointing out that, FROM PHARAOH'S VANTAGE POINT AND RELIGIOUS BELIEFS, seeing the signs and wonders “Moses” did, he most likely DID consider Moses to be a god. Especially when Moses said, By this you will know that I am Jehovah: With the staff that is in my hand I will strike the water of the Nile, and it will be changed into blood. Looks like Jehovah not only made Moses a god to Pharaoh, but He actually made him JEHOVAH to Pharaoh! (Boy, I bet you wish with all your heart that scripture would have been about Jesus, and not Moses. Since it is about Moses, you can use your common sense and understand Moses as a representative of Jehovah. But, if it would have been about Jesus, all that common sense would have gone right out the window in your zeal to proclaim it as a “JESUS IS GOD ALMIGHTY” proof text. ) Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 02 2012,12:47) Quote (mikeboll @ 64) Now WE all know it was Jehovah doing the acts THROUGH Moses and Aaron – just like we all know it was Jehovah doing the signs and wonders THROUGH His holy servant Jesus. Jehovah, the Lord of lords is Jesus.
So to you, the following scripture…………
Acts 2:22
Men of Israel, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know.…………… was speaking about “God Almighty the Son” doing miracles, wonders and signs through “God Almighty the Son”?
Kathi, sometimes you're just too much.
Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 02 2012,12:47) Regarding Pss 138:1 you said: Quote (mikeboll @ 64) And who are they? Men? Angels? Read the article!
I might some day read that article – if I get the chance. But I'm more interested in how YOU explain your belief in these created gods who are not angels.Are you unable to explain it all by yourself?
Mike,
Interestingly twisted! You forgot to quote this part of what Moses said to Pharaoh:
Thus says the LORD, “By this you shall know that I am the LORD: behold, with the staff that is in my hand I will strike the water that is in the Nile, and it shall turn into blood.Do you see how deceitful that was? Did you intend to be deceitful? So, you can't really show me where Pharaoh called Moses by the name 'God' can you?
Quote …………… was speaking about “God Almighty the Son” doing miracles, wonders and signs through “God Almighty the Son”? No, it was speaking about 'God Almighty the Father doing miracles, wonders and signs through God Almighty the Son who became flesh and lower than the angels and had emptied Himself.
Quote I might some day read that article – if I get the chance. A perfect example of putting something in front of someone's eyes and they refuse to see. Mike, it seems by the great quantity of time that you spend on here, you have plenty of 'chances.'
Quote Are you unable to explain it all by yourself? There are created celestial beings called sons of gods, gods, some called angels, some called demons, principalities, powers, beasts. I do not have it all figured out, do you?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 05 2012,20:04) Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 02 2012,12:48) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 01 2012,17:03) Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 01 2012,14:37) Do you deny that the God of gods and the Lord of lords that the God of gods sent are one? Yes or No?
Yes. Now what?
Mike,
Are you asking me or your conscious?
You. I was assuming you were about to tell me how all this proves Jesus is “Jehovah Jr.”, or whatever.Let 'er rip.
Why do you say that the God of gods is not one with the Lord of lords that the God of gods sent? Please defend your stand.Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 05 2012,20:05) Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 02 2012,12:55) All you have 'painstakingly' explained is that being one in them is the same as being one with them. However in the post that I quoted you said that disciples are not one 'in' them.
Is Jesus one “IN” the Father? Or is he one “WITH” the Father?
Both…and eternally!! They are one, eternally!
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
