The Trinity Doctrine

[Pastry]

Charles

This is what I found in Zechariah.

Zec 2:1 ¶ I lifted up mine eyes again, and looked, and behold a man with a measuring line in his hand.

Zec 2:2 Then said I, Whither goest thou? And he said unto me, To measure Jerusalem, to see what is the breadth thereof, and what is the length thereof.

Georg

[mikeboll64]

Yeah, that one threw me for a loop too, Georg. It is Zechariah 3:1-2 that he quoted.

[Pastry]

Thank you Mike, I looked at other books, but did not check chapter 3 of Zechariah.

OK Charles, I got it.

Zec 3:1 ¶ And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.  

The angel of the LORD, the angel of God.

Zec 3:2   And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?  

The angel of the LORD is here referred to as LORD, speaking to Satan standing next to Joshua.

The LORD rebuke thee, may God rebuke thee, because it was God that chose Jerusalem.

Georg

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 09 2012,07:22)

Quote (t8 @ Nov. 29 2011,10:21) Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 26 2011,06:43) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 26 2011,05:55) Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 25 2011,12:38) 3) Yes (1)Please tell us all WHEN you found out then.  (2)Because you just got done saying you never knew anything about any family problems, right? Hi Mike, 1) April fools day 2) No God bless Ed J Let your yes be yes and no be no. You are talking in riddles. Hi T8, Here is the link where Mike told us that Kathi left because of family problems… https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….;st=260 (First Post dated April 1, 2010) God bless Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

That link doesn't work.

[Ed J]

Quote (t8 @ Feb. 09 2012,14:19)

Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 09 2012,07:22) Quote (t8 @ Nov. 29 2011,10:21) Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 26 2011,06:43) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 26 2011,05:55) Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 25 2011,12:38) 3) Yes (1)Please tell us all WHEN you found out then.  (2)Because you just got done saying you never knew anything about any family problems, right? Hi Mike, 1) April fools day 2) No God bless Ed J Let your yes be yes and no be no. You are talking in riddles. Hi T8, Here is the link where Mike told us that Kathi left because of family problems… https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….;st=260 (First Post dated April 1, 2010) God bless Ed J That link doesn't work.

Hi T8,

I know; during the re-figuring of the site it became disabled.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[carmel]

Quote

Pastry,Feb. 09 2012,12:25]Thank you Mike, I looked at other books, but did not check chapter 3 of Zechariah. OK Charles, I got it. Zec 3:1 ¶ And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.   The angel of the LORD, the angel of God. Zec 3:2   And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?   The angel of the LORD is here referred to as LORD, speaking to Satan standing next to Joshua. The LORD rebuke thee, may God rebuke thee, because it was God that chose Jerusalem. Georg

Quote

The LORD rebuke thee, may God rebuke thee, because it was God that chose Jerusalem.

Pastry,

With every respect anybody could add, and change scriptures in order to suit his MAN MADE ITERPRETATION, but we would remain in the dark.

Now let's try to get some light IF possible!!!

WITHOUT ADDING, DEDUCTING, AND  OR CHANGING SCRIPTURE!!!!

Zec 3:1 ¶ And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.  

2 And the LORD said to Satan: The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan: and the LORD that chose Jerusalem rebuke thee:

HE SHOWED ME JOSHUA:

WHO IS THIS HE??? PRESUMABLY THE ANGEL OF THE LORD AS WELL.

Am I right if I imagine a scene with JOSHUA in front of the angel of the lord,and on the right hand of JOSHUA  there was also Satan resisting him.

IT IS GOOD TO KNOW WHAT SATAN IS RESISTING HIM FOR!!!

2 And the LORD said to Satan: The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan  

So here the angel of the lord  is PERSONIFYING the Father himself, and said:

THE LORD REBUKE YOU.

Why since the angel is acting as the Father didn't say:

I REBUKE YOU, in respect of And the LORD said to Satan:?

So to me it should be: And the LORD said to Satan: I rebuke you Satan.

What do you think???

Like that it would make us certain that GOD THE FATHER REBUKED SATAN. NO???

But as it is, instead, it is making us aware that the FATHER who is in the figure of the ANGEL OF THE LORD, is saying that THE LORD, who could not be the Father, BUT ANOTHER PARTICULAR LORD IS REBUKING Satan, since there are many lords according to Paul himself.

In the last part then the FATHER CONCLUDES:

and the LORD that chose Jerusalem rebuke thee

So here the interesting part is that there's also another lord THAT CHOSE JERUSALEM, WHO REBUKES SATAN.

So we have one PARTICULAR LORD REBUKES SATAN

and  ANOTHER ONE WHO CHOSE JERUSALEM WHO ALSO REBUKES SATAN.

SO TWO DIFFERENT LORDS!!!

As you could see that I didn’t added, deducted, or changed scripture, but through reflection, I discerned another message from it, and discovered some light!!!! I BELIEVE.

SO TO ME THE FATHER FOR SURE NEVER ACTUALLY REBUKED SATAN BUT OTHER TWO PARTICULAR LORDS!!!

Myself I believe that the answer is within the name JERUSALEM  and I am convinced that it is used
METAPHORICALLY NOT AS A CITY ONLY.

As soon as we make sure what the name JERUSALM refers to, we would also  be able to discover the right interpretation.

My question is this:

Can through deep reflection discern what JERUSALEM  stands for in scripture GENERALLY SPEKING APART FROM A CITY???

Three of the  most popular names who are related to each other ,and also HAVE A METAPHORICAL RELATION AS WELL which are mentioned in scripture, are ISRAEL , JERUSALEM,  AND SION.

WOULD YOU ENDEAVOR TO MAKE ME AWARE OF THEIR MEANING???

Peace and love in Jesus

Charles

[mikeboll64]

Hi Charles,

Many times in the OT, the angel or vice regent of Jehovah was referred to as “Jehovah”, or “God”.

Would you like some scriptural examples? (I believe this is what Georg is trying to tell you.)

[Pastry]

Charles

What exactly did you say different, then what I said in 3 lines?

Georg

[carmel]

Quote (Pastry @ Feb. 10 2012,12:36)

Charles What exactly did you say different, then what I said in 3 lines? Georg

Quote

What exactly did you say different, then what I said in 3 lines?

YOUR VERSION:

The LORD rebuke thee, may God rebuke thee, because it was God that chose Jerusalem.

ORIGINAL VERSION

2  The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan: and the LORD that chose Jerusalem rebuke thee:

As you can see, you created “MAY GOD REBUKE YOU”, and “BECAUSE IT WAS GOD THAT chose Jerusalem”

You also eliminated the word AND which to me it is indicating, that there is another particular LORD who chose Jerusalem.
So it is completely different since scripture used the title LORD.

Do you think that scripture uses the various titles for GOD FOR FUN?

It is not right to put God wherever there is LORD, although eventually it would be God, but we would have achieved nothing.

Scripture would have done that in the first place, and used God all the way throughout the entire bible, and would have created only a hoax for sure.

In scripture God the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are called LORDS in different circumstances, and it is of great importance to establish which is which, and why.  

Let’s put GOD and see what we create:

GOD rebuke you Satan, and GOD that chose Jerusalem rebuke you.  

DOES IT LOOK THAT IT IS THE SAME GOD.

DOESN’T IT LOOK MORE THAT THERE ARE TWO GODS,THERFORE IT DOESN’T MAKE SENSE.

But using LORD it make sense ONLY in order to discover the REASON WHY, and to establish the right interpretation.

Scripture is crammed with symbolic names.

Do you agree about my question, which is very important to establish the symbolical meaning of the name JERUSALEM apart from being a name of a city.

As soon as we establish this we would also establish which LORD chose JERUSALEM, and then we would also establish the other LORD who rebuked Satan in the first place.

The whole vision is definitely a prophecy regarding Jesus Christ, and it is not an easy task to discern.

It is also the most inferior way,WHEN ONE look at scripture literally only.

Peace and love in Jesus

Charles

[cavedave]

Many times we make things far more diffacult then they need to be. God is Spirit and there is now where you can go and be away from Him. So many think as Gods Spirit as something
He does as an after thought. Many things are written to those with limited understanding so He gives us pictures and shadows of things and then men do as they always do they make the pictures into doctrine and kill all those who cross the lines of thier limited understanding. The one God is not a spirit cut up in pieces. God is Spirit Him and His word are one.
And we are one with Him in Christ. The funny part is all the scripture in the world will not get any to see these things.
Only knowing Him or being in Him will do this. As Paul said no one told me these things. He knew about God because he knew Him. He Christ Gods very word the living word not the dead letter was now his life. This is how it should be with all those who are truly His all else is folly. The one true God is Spirit. He gives us all of who He is in Christ and now Christ is in us if we have truly been born from above. The sons of God would never kill or cut off a brother or sister for what they believe it would be the same as cutting off your own arm. Sometime children will do this to their parents. This is spritural not natural children or parents. In this day many of the children will rise up to kill the parents or elders thinking they will lose thier place in the world or church system. Though in the times ahead none will be able to stay the hand of our Father for He is a mighty God and all the world will know this for sure shorlty.

[Ed J]

Quote (cavedave @ Feb. 17 2012,22:59)

He Christ Gods very word the living word not the dead letter was now his life.

Hi cavedave,

English must not be your original tongue,
because this sentence makes no sense?     …I need an interpreter.  

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[cavedave]

Hello Ed
Did not write it to stump you. In fact I was not thinking of any body in a personal way at all. And as far as english being my first lanuage I would have to agree with you. I do the best I can with what i have you have the God of all grace in you I would hope He would help you I am sure just ask Him.

[Ed J]

Quote (cavedave @ Feb. 17 2012,23:46)

Hello Ed Did not write it to stump you. In fact I was not thinking of any body in a personal way at all. And as far as english being my first lanuage I would have to agree with you. I do the best I can with what i have you have the God of all grace in you I would hope He would help you I am sure just ask Him.

Bless you cavedave!

I hope your stay here will truly be blessing to all.
English is relatively new to both Terraricca and Pastry.
My comment was NOT meant as an insult, but merely truth.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[Pastry]

Quote (Devolution @ Dec. 11 2011,18:53)

There are two versions of trinity that i am aware of. One group as i understand, believe that the Holy Spirit is an individual person. The other believe that the Holy Spirit is just an expression of the Father (meaning He is not an individual, but an individual expression). Though the Holy Spirit can become anything God so desires, and though the Holy Spirit has been described in scripture as “He”, i believe that description is merely denoting His source gender. There are other arguments to make, but i only wish to concentrate on the Holy Spirit being a 3rd person, or a 3rd expression of the Father. This is very important. If i can show that the Holy Spirit is not a person/expression, then this should, one would hope, have trinitarians questioning their entire doctrine….”should”….if truth is their motivation that is (being general about “them” & their motivation). Actually, it should make them finally abandon this entire doctrine in my opinion. I am not oneness, whatever that is, nor part of any religious group, nor taught by one…i am just a believer who is trying his best for our Lord… and this is what i noticed in scripture… Here we go… Firstly, before i get to scripture, lets imagine that your family is faced with one of the single most important events your family will ever experience. So important, that it would be a huge insult if not all of your family showed up…an inexcusable insult… We have just an example in scripture of a monumental event…and everyone is there in heaven to witness it… Well, almost everyone !! Revelation 5. 1 > And i saw in the right hand of Him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals. The Father is there…Skip forward… 6 >And i beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. The four beasts are there, Jesus is there, the elders are there…skip forward… 11 >And i beheld, and i heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders; and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands. So the angels are there too…skip forward… Wait a sec….that's it !!! No more attendees are present there in heaven for this huge event…. So, my question is….Where is the Holy Spirit?

Devolution

You ask a good question at the end, unfortunately there are only a handful of people reading this forum.

Now let me ask a question; for the trinitarians.

Why is it that when the Holy Spirit is mentioned, it always says; God's Holy Spirit, or, the Spirit “OF” God?

Also, why is it that Paul in his letters always thanks God, never the Holy Spirit?

Look at this scripture;

2Jo 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

Should it not say, “”has all three””?

Georg

[Pastry]

Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 22 2011,16:32)

Devolution, You have demonstrated that the Holy Spirit is probably not a 3rd person but you have not demonstrated that He is not the 'inner person' of the Father and Son united which is what I believe.  I don't believe that the Holy Spirit is merely the spirit of truth although the Holy Spirit would certainly portray and lead in truth.  Man's spirit is his 'inner person' and that is why I think that the spirit of the Father and the spirit of the Son would be their 'inner person' except that their 'inner person' would  be able to extend from them as one united spirit to creation without ever completely leaving them.  I believe that their spirit is their means of being in many places at once yet not personally.  It is how they can be in heaven and also dwell in the believer…through their inner person.  Just some thoughts. Take care, Kathi

Hi Kathi

There is a simpler way of putting what you refer to as the “inner person”, it's called, the mind.
Referring to your inner person; does that make you two? or, does your inner person do things on her own?
What did Paul meant by when he said.

Phl 2:5 ¶ Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:  

What mind was in Jesus? was it not God's Holy Mind, his Holy Spirit?

Is it not true that what you call, the inner person, is our mind? is it not our mind that Paul referred to when he said.

1Cr 2:11   For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him?…

Why did Paul referred to our mind as spirit? because as all spirits are invisible, so is our mind. Our mind acts according to what information is stored in our brain, that part is visible.

Georg

[NickHassan]

Hi Georg,
Logic still is your foundation.

[Pastry]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 18 2012,04:34)

Hi Georg, Logic still is your foundation.

No Nick, scriptures are, you should try it some time; you would have a firmer grip on things.

Georg

[Lightenup]

Quote (Pastry @ Feb. 17 2012,12:14)

Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 22 2011,16:32) Devolution, You have demonstrated that the Holy Spirit is probably not a 3rd person but you have not demonstrated that He is not the 'inner person' of the Father and Son united which is what I believe.  I don't believe that the Holy Spirit is merely the spirit of truth although the Holy Spirit would certainly portray and lead in truth.  Man's spirit is his 'inner person' and that is why I think that the spirit of the Father and the spirit of the Son would be their 'inner person' except that their 'inner person' would  be able to extend from them as one united spirit to creation without ever completely leaving them.  I believe that their spirit is their means of being in many places at once yet not personally.  It is how they can be in heaven and also dwell in the believer…through their inner person.  Just some thoughts. Take care, Kathi Hi Kathi There is a simpler way of putting what you refer to as the “inner person”, it's called, the mind. Referring to your inner person; does that make you two? or, does your inner person do things on her own? What did Paul meant by when he said. Phl 2:5 ¶ Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:   What mind was in Jesus? was it not God's Holy Mind, his Holy Spirit? Is it not true that what you call, the inner person, is our mind? is it not our mind that Paul referred to when he said. 1Cr 2:11   For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him?… Why did Paul referred to our mind as spirit? because as all spirits are invisible, so is our mind. Our mind acts according to what information is stored in our brain, that part is visible. Georg

Georg,
Here are some scriptures to consider regarding the 'inner person/man.'

Eph 3:16
King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;

2 Corinthians 4:16
King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day.

Romans 7:22
King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

1 Pet 3:4
King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.

Georg, it has been a while since I looked into this but I think that the mind has something to do with the spirit, it in itself is not the spirit but the spirit searches and knows the mind. The heart has something to do with it also. The inner person of humans is that which is missing of a man laying in his casket. The inner person of God extends from God to search our hearts and minds and renews our hearts and minds to be like the heart and mind of Christ.

When we go to a funeral and view the body, is it not uncommon to think that 'he/she' is not there but with the Lord?

Anyway, it is an interesting study.
Kathi

[Pastry]

Kathi

If our inner man is not our mind, then I must have a double I have not met yet.

Why does Paul call it a mind one time, and spirit another; are not both invisible?

The heart has nothing to do with anything, except to pump blood. It may pump faster at times when we are exited, and slower when we're scared; but our decisions are made with our mind/spirit depending what information is in our brain.

Yes, a dead body does look empty, empty of life, but he/she is not with the Lord; not consciously that is.
I give you some scriptures you need to look at.

Ps. 104:29 “Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled, thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust.”

Eccl. 3:19 “For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man has no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.”

v. 20 “All go unto one place, all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.”

Eccl. 9:5 “For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.”

Ps. 6:5 “For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?”

Ps. 88:10 “Wilt thou show wonders to the dead? Shall the dead arise and praise thee?”

v. 11 “Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave? Or thy faithfulness in destruction?”

v. 12 “Shall thy wonders be known in the dark? And thy righteousness in the land of forgetfulness?”

Ps. 115:17 “The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.”

Georg

[Lightenup]

Hi Georg,
Doesn't this verse discount your theory that mind = spirit?

1 Cor 14:14For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful. 15What is the outcome then? I will pray with the spirit and I will pray with the mind also; I will sing with the spirit and I will sing with the mind also.

Kathi

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