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Quote (katjo @ Feb. 11 2010,05:22) B.D. THINK ABOUT THIS; READ ALL ! “Who is Jesus Christ?”(GOTQUESTIONS.ORG) John 1:1 says “the Word was God.” John 1:14 says “the Word became flesh.” This clearly indicates that Jesus is God in the flesh. Thomas the disciple declared to Jesus, “My Lord and my God” (John 20:28). Jesus does not correct him. The apostle Paul describes Him as, “…our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ” (Titus 2:13). The apostle Peter says the same, “…our God and Savior Jesus Christ” (2 Peter 1:1). God the Father is witness of Jesus’ full identity as well, “But about the Son he says, ‘Your throne, O God, will last forever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.’” Old Testament prophecies of Christ announce His deity, “For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace” (Isaiah 9:6).
Why is the question over Jesus’ true identity so important? Why does it matter whether or not Jesus is God? The most important reason that Jesus has to be God is that if He is not God, His death would not have been sufficient to pay the penalty for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2). Only God could pay such an infinite penalty (Romans 5:8; 2 Corinthians 5:21). Jesus had to be God so that He could pay our debt. Jesus had to be man so He could die. Salvation is available only through faith in Jesus Christ. Jesus’ deity is why He is the only way of salvation. Jesus’ deity is why He proclaimed, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me” (John 14:6).
KATJO
Is The Father and The Son 2 different gods? Because Jesus says about the Father that he is the ONLY TRUE GOD.Quote “But about the Son he says, ‘Your throne, O God, will last forever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.” This is a misquote of the Old testament by Paul, God was not speaking to Jesus it was a scribe honoring a King: Look:
Psalm 45
1My heart is inditing a good matter: I speak of the things which I have made touching the king: my tongue is the pen of a ready writer.2Thou art fairer than the children of men: grace is poured into thy lips: therefore God hath blessed thee for ever.
3Gird thy sword upon thy thigh, O most mighty, with thy glory and thy majesty.
4And in thy majesty ride prosperously because of truth and meekness and righteousness; and thy right hand shall teach thee terrible things.
5Thine arrows are sharp in the heart of the king's enemies; whereby the people fall under thee.
6Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.
7Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
8All thy garments smell of myrrh, and aloes, and cassia, out of the ivory palaces, whereby they have made thee glad.
9Kings' daughters were among thy honourable women: upon thy right hand did stand the queen in gold of Ophir.
and also Isaiah 9:6 is about Hezekiah which name translates to guess what? “Mighty God”
And Jesus is never referred to as the Prince of Peace anyway because Jesus said he did not come to bring peace, but a sword.
If Jesus was God and made himself be a man to raise himself from the dead NO PENALTY AT ALL WOULD BE PAID.
What was the penalty to be for the sinner? If it is physical death, we all still die and if it is Hell it has not nor ever will be paid by Christ Jesus. Do you suppose he is going to Hell and burn on the behalf of sinners who have believed in him? Does that make sense?
How is any penalty paid, please explain.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 11 2010,06:40) Hi TT,
You ignore the elephant in the room again.
God was in Christ.
Half truths Nick. Jesus IS the Good Shepherd.thinker
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 11 2010,03:19) So what you are saying is that Jesus had the Father in him without measure yet he did not fully submit to the Father and let the Father Love through him with an equal love? Blessings WJ
Hi WJ,No; that's what your saying.
Ed J
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 05 2010,10:35) t8 So God does not have a form?
So God is limited to take on any form that he wants without it being an Angel?
Wrong!
WJ
God's form is spirit and he is invisible. This cannot even be challenged without challenging scripture itself. God dwells inside beings however. It is said “God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself” for example.So if God was in Christ, then God wasn't Christ but in him. If God is in an angel, then surely the heavenly glory would be astounding, and you could say that you have seen his form because seeing the invisible God whom no one can see through a heavenly being would surely be a sight to behold as a spiritual body can emanate light and glory like no other (I would imagine). A bit like light passing through a prism. The light is not the prism, but the prism is radiating all the colours of the spectrum and the prism shows the glory of the light.
Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 11 2010,04:10) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 11 2010,03:31) Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 10 2010,11:20) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 09 2010,09:58) Hi WJ,
Indeed Jesus perfectly showed God in nature and power.
God was in him
But God Himself could not love the way Jesus did. The greatest love is to lay down one's own life for another which you say God cannot do. Ergo, Jesus did not show the love of God “perfectly.” The love of Jesus SURPASSED God's love.thinker
JackIt is amazing how they now “REDUCE” the Love of Jesus to less than the Fathers Love when he had the Spirit without measure and he was the one who “Willingly” gave his own life for us.
It never ceases the excuses for not giving the Son the same honour as the Father!
Blessings WJ
Keith,ED J actually thinks that God's giving His Son is a greater love than the Son's laying down His own life.
The greatest love according to ED J: “Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down the life of his son for his friends.”
The greatest love according to Jesus: “Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down his own life for his friends.”
If Jesus was not God in the flesh then His love CLEARLY surpassed the love of God.
thinker
Hi ThinkingMan,John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son,
that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Mt:26:39,42 And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying,
O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou will.
He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father,
if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done.Isaiah 55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts:
and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.
For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither,
but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower,
and bread to the eater: So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth:
it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please,
and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.Quote (bodhitharta @ Feb. 10 2010,13:05) God Almighty is the forgiver of sins and this is what Jesus taught
Well, not quite. He also said he had the power to forgive sins, and he then supposedly gave that power to the apostles.Quote (katjo @ Feb. 11 2010,05:22) B.D. THINK ABOUT THIS; READ ALL ! “Who is Jesus Christ?”(GOTQUESTIONS.ORG) John 1:1 says “the Word was God.” John 1:14 says “the Word became flesh.” This clearly indicates that Jesus is God in the flesh. Thomas the disciple declared to Jesus, “My Lord and my God” (John 20:28). Jesus does not correct him. The apostle Paul describes Him as, “…our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ” (Titus 2:13). The apostle Peter says the same, “…our God and Savior Jesus Christ” (2 Peter 1:1). God the Father is witness of Jesus’ full identity as well, “But about the Son he says, ‘Your throne, O God, will last forever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.’” Old Testament prophecies of Christ announce His deity, “For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace” (Isaiah 9:6).
Why is the question over Jesus’ true identity so important? Why does it matter whether or not Jesus is God? The most important reason that Jesus has to be God is that if He is not God, His death would not have been sufficient to pay the penalty for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2). Only God could pay such an infinite penalty (Romans 5:8; 2 Corinthians 5:21). Jesus had to be God so that He could pay our debt. Jesus had to be man so He could die. Salvation is available only through faith in Jesus Christ. Jesus’ deity is why He is the only way of salvation. Jesus’ deity is why He proclaimed, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me” (John 14:6).
KATJO
I know that was adressed to Bd Katjo but I just want to say that allthough I dont believe in the Trinity, thankyou for pointing out in your own way how Jesus is more than just a Prophet no different than all the others; (As Islam teaches) but is more than that“For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace” (Isaiah 9:6).
Quote (t8 @ Feb. 11 2010,08:03) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 05 2010,10:35) t8 So God does not have a form?
So God is limited to take on any form that he wants without it being an Angel?
Wrong!
WJ
God's form is spirit and he is invisible. This cannot even be challenged without challenging scripture itself. God dwells inside beings however. It is said “God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself” for example.So if God was in Christ, then God wasn't Christ but in him. If God is in an angel, then surely the heavenly glory would be astounding, and you could say that you have seen his form because seeing the invisible God whom no one can see through a heavenly being would surely be a sight to behold as a spiritual body can emanate light and glory like no other (I would imagine). A bit like light passing through a prism. The light is not the prism, but the prism is radiating all the colours of the spectrum and the prism shows the glory of the light.
T8………Good example, right on.peace and love to you and yours………………….gene
Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 11 2010,08:08) [q
Isaiah 55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts:
and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.
For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither,
but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower,
and bread to the eater: So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth:
it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please,
and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
ED J………..Amen to that Post brother.peace and love to you and yours……………gene
KArmarie, So why dont you beleive in the trinity?
katjo
Quote (kejonn @ Feb. 11 2010,08:54) Quote (bodhitharta @ Feb. 10 2010,13:05) God Almighty is the forgiver of sins and this is what Jesus taught
Well, not quite. He also said he had the power to forgive sins, and he then supposedly gave that power to the apostles.
You are right therefore no Sacrificial death is needed.Keep in mind that Jesus said if you forgive the sins of others God will forgive you.
God is the forgiver of sins
Quote (karmarie @ Feb. 11 2010,08:56) Quote (katjo @ Feb. 11 2010,05:22) B.D. THINK ABOUT THIS; READ ALL ! “Who is Jesus Christ?”(GOTQUESTIONS.ORG) John 1:1 says “the Word was God.” John 1:14 says “the Word became flesh.” This clearly indicates that Jesus is God in the flesh. Thomas the disciple declared to Jesus, “My Lord and my God” (John 20:28). Jesus does not correct him. The apostle Paul describes Him as, “…our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ” (Titus 2:13). The apostle Peter says the same, “…our God and Savior Jesus Christ” (2 Peter 1:1). God the Father is witness of Jesus’ full identity as well, “But about the Son he says, ‘Your throne, O God, will last forever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.’” Old Testament prophecies of Christ announce His deity, “For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace” (Isaiah 9:6).
Why is the question over Jesus’ true identity so important? Why does it matter whether or not Jesus is God? The most important reason that Jesus has to be God is that if He is not God, His death would not have been sufficient to pay the penalty for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2). Only God could pay such an infinite penalty (Romans 5:8; 2 Corinthians 5:21). Jesus had to be God so that He could pay our debt. Jesus had to be man so He could die. Salvation is available only through faith in Jesus Christ. Jesus’ deity is why He is the only way of salvation. Jesus’ deity is why He proclaimed, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me” (John 14:6).
KATJO
I know that was adressed to Bd Katjo but I just want to say that allthough I dont believe in the Trinity, thankyou for pointing out in your own way how Jesus is more than just a Prophet no different than all the others; (As Islam teaches) but is more than that“For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace” (Isaiah 9:6).
Isaiah 9:6 is not about Jesus it is about King Hezekiah“For a child has been born to us, a son has been given us. And authority has settled on his shoulders. He has been named “The Mighty God is planning grace; The Eternal Father, a peaceable ruler” – In token of abundant authority and of peace without limit upon David’s throne and kingdom, that it may be firmly established in justice and in equity now and evermore. The zeal of the Lord of Hosts shall bring this to pass.” (JPS)
Christians cite Isaiah 9:5-6 (above) as being a Messianic text and a prophecy about Jesus. With a cursory reading, Jesus may even seem to fit. However, when it is taken it its linguistic, historical, and cultural context it becomes another story entirely.
One problem occurs in the translation of Christian Bibles that render this verse differently, “For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.” (KJV)
Note how the phrase yats gibbor El is translated to “The Mighty God is planning grace” in the JPS while the KJV translates it to, “Counsellor, the Mighty God.” There are no commas in Hebrew or any breaks in this phrase to designate such a thing, so why does the KJV translate it as such? To make this appear to be a string of Godly and Messianic titles.
Note how the same thing is done to the phrase marbeh misrah shalom qets kiche David mamlakh. The JPS translates this to “In token of abundant authority and peace without limit upon David’s throne and kingdom” while the KJV translates this to, “Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom.” The insertion of nonexistent commas to break up the sentence in the KJV renders this in a way that it attempts to distinguish between “the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end” and “upon the throne of David.” The JPS leaves it in tact, making the statement that the increase of government and peace shall be no end on the throne of David. Why does this matter? Because Christians claim that Jesus kingdom is “not of this world”, yet here it distinctly gives an increase of peace among a worldly kingdom – David’s throne!
The most important translation issue to look at may be the tenses. The JPS renders the phrase yeled yalad ben nathan misrah shekem as, “For a child has been born to us, a son has been given us. And authority has settled on his shoulders.” whereas the KJV translates it as, “For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder.” The KJV renders this to be in the future tense, so as to make it seem like a future prophecy about Jesus. The JPS translation, however, is correct. This should be in the past tense, as an event that already happened. The syntax of the Hebrew as well as the surrounding context requires it to be in the past tense.
Now, since it is in past tense (an event that already happened) this should be enough to discourage the belief that it is a prophecy about Jesus. But alas, some may still be clinging to the belief that it is or not convinced by the evidence, so here are some other reasons it can’t be about Jesus:
For one, it is about King Hezekiah. You might cry out in protest, “Wait a minute! This can’t possibly be calling a man, Hezekiah, things like ‘Mighty God’, ‘Prince of Peace’, or ‘Eternal Father’!” Well, this is when the cultural context comes into play. This was a throne name, or a royal title. It is not saying that Hezekiah was the God of Abraham, but rather that Hezekiah represented God as a King on Earth. In fact, this practice existed up until the 1980s in other Semitic kingdoms like Ethiopia, where the Emperor was called “Lord of Lords, King of Kings, etc.”
So how do we know this is about Hezekiah specifically? For one, it is a play on Hezekiah’s name which means God strengthens when Mighty God occurs. Secondly, as covered earlier, it is in the past tense and thus must refer to a recent king in the past. Third, this was exactly who this passage of Jewish scripture was always understood to be about by Jews. This is its historical context. Here are a few examples:
“Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end. R. Tanhum said: Bar Kappara expounded in Sepphoris, Why is every mem in the middle of a word open, whilst this is closed? — The Holy One, blessed be He, wished to appoint Hezekiah as the Messiah, and Sennacherib as Gog and Magog; whereupon the Attribute of Justice said before the Holy One, blessed be He: 'Sovereign of the Universe! If Thou didst not make David the Messiah, who uttered so many hymns and psalms before Thee, wilt Thou appoint Hezekiah as such, who did not hymn Thee in spite of all these miracles which Tho
u wroughtest for him?' Therefore it [sc. the mem] was closed.” (Sanh. 94)“The Holy One, blessed be He, said: Let Hezekiah, who hath eight [shemoneh] names, come and mete out punishment to Sennacherib, who hath [likewise] eight. Hezekiah, as it is written, For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty, Judge, Everlasting, Father, Prince, and Peace.” (Sanh. 94)
“R. Johanan said: Since the days of Hezekiah, for it is said, Of the increase of his government and of peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to establish it, and to uphold it with judgement and with righteousness for henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts shall perform this.” (Shab. 55)
Another example is what this King would do. He would be a “peaceable ruler.” But Jesus said in Matthew 10:34, “”Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.” (NIV) It’s clear how the two goals and verses are inconsistent with one another. And as mentioned earlier, this king was a distinctly earthly king who would bring peace to David’s throne while Jesus was a supposedly heavenly king, whose heaven was “not of this world”, who had no interaction with David’s throne.
Finally, the most obvious might be that Jesus never held these exact titles. Christians may have attributed them to him in part, or similar titles when he was deified later during the Council of Nicea, but not once is Jesus recorded in the NT as holding these exact titles. Nor does the NT attempt to link Jesus with this text.
So what have we discovered? This is a verse that refers to past events, specifically the birth and reign of Hezekiah. In addition, Jesus cannot fit this verse because Jesus came neither to rule an earthly kingdom nor to bring peace to the world. The context of this verse – linguistic, historical, and cultural – simply doesn’t allow it to be a prophecy of Jesus.
http://shemaantimissionary.tripod.com/id5.html
Also once again no blood sacrifice neccesary:
Hosea 14:2-3 Return, Israel, unto the Lord your God, for you have stumbled in your iniquity. Take words with you and return to the Lord; say unto Him, 'May You forgive all iniquity and accept good intentions, and let our lips substitute for bulls.
God prefers mercy over sacrifice, will you worship God today with all your being and stop dividing your attention between HIM and HIS creations?
Quote (bodhitharta @ Feb. 10 2010,18:10) Quote (kejonn @ Feb. 11 2010,08:54) Quote (bodhitharta @ Feb. 10 2010,13:05) God Almighty is the forgiver of sins and this is what Jesus taught
Well, not quite. He also said he had the power to forgive sins, and he then supposedly gave that power to the apostles.
You are right therefore no Sacrificial death is needed.Keep in mind that Jesus said if you forgive the sins of others God will forgive you.
God is the forgiver of sins
No, he did not say that after his power grab. He simply said he had the power to forgive sins, then he passed the power on.Hey, I think I have the power too. Ask me to forgive you, see if it works.
B.D. “A child is born” is Jesus Christ!!Have you ever looked up or read on the dead sea scrolls? It matches the King James almost word for word. If you dont have Jesus you cant have the Father, and without Jesus you dont have the Holy Spirit!
katjo:)
Quote (katjo @ Feb. 11 2010,12:02) B.D. “A child is born” is Jesus Christ!!Have you ever looked up or read on the dead sea scrolls? It matches the King James almost word for word. If you dont have Jesus you cant have the Father, and without Jesus you dont have the Holy Spirit! katjo:)
Why do you think it is referring to Jesus Christ?The reason you believe this is because it was taught to you, it is about Hezekiah for sure, this doesn't take anything away from Jesus it's just not about Jesus. Just like Emmanuel is not relating to Jesus if it were his name would be Emmanuel.
Others have raised people from the dead and healed the sick why is it you don't believe in them? What about Elijah or Elisha?
Do you give them no credit for being Men of God that God gave the Holy Spirit to long before the birth of Christ?
You have to accept that there is a selfish motive for you to prefer Jesus over the others sent by God and that is you believe Jesus died for you but what about the others who died delivering the message of God, do they not matter and what about the ones that didn't die delivering the message but delivered it in obedience are they inferior and if so why?
Isaish 9;7 He will reig n on Davids throne and over His kingdom(scripture tells us the kingdom is Jesus's).Also says the LORD Almighty will accomplish this.(Jesus is also referred to wonderful Counselor, mighty God Prince of peace in other scripts,(9;1 is also speaking of the Lord coming. In the past He humbled the land of Zebulum and the land of Naphtali,BUT IN THE FUTURE(this is speaking of jesus') HE WILL HONOR GALILEE OF THE GENTILES, BY THE WAY OF THE SEA, ALONG THE JORDAN. We are being told thats what was going to happen even before it did. He came in the flesh!
God Bless You…
katjokatjo
Quote (katjo @ Feb. 11 2010,13:11) Isaish 9;7 He will reig n on Davids throne and over His kingdom(scripture tells us the kingdom is Jesus's).Also says the LORD Almighty will accomplish this.(Jesus is also referred to wonderful Counselor, mighty God Prince of peace in other scripts,(9;1 is also speaking of the Lord coming. In the past He humbled the land of Zebulum and the land of Naphtali,BUT IN THE FUTURE(this is speaking of jesus') HE WILL HONOR GALILEE OF THE GENTILES, BY THE WAY OF THE SEA, ALONG THE JORDAN. We are being told thats what was going to happen even before it did. He came in the flesh! God Bless You…
katjokatjo
Hezekiah ruled on David's throne.But wait! You said that Jesus was God but now even you admit that Jesus inherited the throne of David.
Are you believing that God inherited the throne of a Man?
b.d. JESUS IS YOUR SAVIOR! OUR FAITH IS SUPPOSE TO BE IN HIM. He was crucified for you and me. He is who we will spend eternity with. Dont you read about HIm? Those other men wasnt born of the Holy Spirit!
katjo
katjo
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