The Trinity Doctrine

Participant

The Gospel of Mark, 5:9, describes the following in the country of the Gadarenes:

And he (Jesus) asked him (the man), “What is thy name?” And he answered, saying, “My name is Legion: for we are many.”

God said “I am ONE” not “We are One” nor “I, the LORD are Three“

How is it that even demons can proclaim their unified number but the Trinitarian version of “God” cannot?

January 13, 2010 at 3:07 pm#169903

Participant

Jesus had the perfect chance to declare the Trinity when he said:
“I and my Father are One”

– He could have said:
“I, my father and the Holy Spirit, are One”

– also he said:
“I am ascending to My Father and Your Father, and My God and Your God”
but could did not include the Holy Spirit:

Remember that the Trinitarian “God” makes the Holy Spirit a “Co-Equal Person of the Godhead” – Why is 'HE' not included in the reunion of Christ back in heaven?

January 13, 2010 at 3:40 pm#169908

banana

Participant

Quote (JustAskin @ Jan. 14 2010,02:07)

Jesus had the perfect chance to declare the Trinity when he said:
“I and my Father are One”

– He could have said:
“I, my father and the Holy Spirit, are One”

– also he said:
“I am ascending to My Father and Your Father, and My God and Your God”
but could did not include the Holy Spirit:

Remember that the Trinitarian “God” makes the Holy Spirit a “Co-Equal Person of the Godhead” – Why is 'HE' not included in the reunion of Christ back in heaven?

Good points, also in none of the Books of the Apostles is in the beginning of the Books the Holy Spirit mentioned. Always just the Father and Jesus Christ. They simply can never understand it. I had a conversation about the trinity with our Son who goes to the Baptist Church and I almost got into a heated argument with Him. Just can't understand if God does not open their minds. We can talk to them until were blue in the face. It is God IMO that has to open a persons mind to understand the truth. The whole world is deceived at this time. Only Jesus will be able to set all straight-IMO.
Keep up the good work.
Peace and Love Irene

January 13, 2010 at 3:56 pm#169910

Participant

Quote (JustAskin @ Jan. 13 2010,10:07)

Jesus had the perfect chance to declare the Trinity when he said:
“I and my Father are One”

– He could have said:
“I, my father and the Holy Spirit, are One”

Jesus had the perfect chance to declare the Trinity when he said:
“I and my Father are One”

– He could have said:
“I, my father and the Holy Spirit, are One”

Jesus didn't have to. At this point Jesus had the Holy Spirit without measure, (imagine that, the Father and Jesus have the Holy Spirit without measure).

The ministry of the Holy Spirit dwelling in his followers had not yet come.

However Jesus spoke of “Another” that he and the Father would send (John 14:16, 14:26, 15:26, 16:7), and that the Holy Spirit would be subservient to him. (John 16:13, 14).

As Thinker has pointed out the Holy Spirit does not speak of himself but only speaks what he hears and takes from Jesus and gives to us! This is proof that the “Another” that Jesus and the Father sent is not the Fathers personal Spirit.

But these scriptures and facts is what anti-trinitarians ignore or blot out of their Bibles or twist to their own destruction.

Jesus did not have to announce that God was Triune and in fact it was his purpose to reveal it to those only that had eyes to see and ears to hear.

And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand Luke 8:10

January 13, 2010 at 4:04 pm#169911

KangarooJack

Participant

Uoflfan said:

Quote

To all
Jesus as it says in Scriptures had God in Him 2Cor 5.
Also He(God) made Him(Jesus) who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf. 2Cor 5 also.

This was God's plan from the beginning, also you can take this verse two ways and both are correct even though WJ,and Thinker and other Trinitarians will say it is not.
This verse says that God made it possible for Jesus to be sin on our behalf but it also says that God made Jesus for this very reason, to be and take on our sins.

The first word “made” is the Greek “poieo” which means “to appoint.” It means that God appointed Jesus to be sin for us and it says nothing about Christ's supposed origin.

The second word “made” is “ginomai” which means “to become.” It says that God appointed Christ to be sin for us that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

Only the second word “made” regarding us has reference to some kind of beginning.

thinker

January 13, 2010 at 4:09 pm#169912

Participant

Quote (JustAskin @ Jan. 13 2010,10:07)

Remember that the Trinitarian “God” makes the Holy Spirit a “Co-Equal Person of the Godhead” – Why is 'HE' not included in the reunion of Christ back in heaven?

He is, for the Father and Jesus sits in the throne and the Holy Spirit proceeds from the throne as living water to bring life to all of the creation.

Does this surprise you?

And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

Do you see the three here? Is Jesus a literal lamb? Then the Holy Spirit is not a literal river.

Do you not understand that the Holy Spirit can be living water to us?

Jesus also is life to us for he is the Bread of Life and we eat of his flesh and drink of his blood!

God can become anything and everything to us, and he is!

It is One God in three persons that brings salvation to all of creation.

Jesus spoke of the three more than once. Matt 28:19

January 13, 2010 at 4:25 pm#169914

KangarooJack

Participant

Quote (banana @ Jan. 14 2010,02:40)

Quote (JustAskin @ Jan. 14 2010,02:07)

Jesus had the perfect chance to declare the Trinity when he said:
“I and my Father are One”

– He could have said:
“I, my father and the Holy Spirit, are One”

– also he said:
“I am ascending to My Father and Your Father, and My God and Your God”
but could did not include the Holy Spirit:

Remember that the Trinitarian “God” makes the Holy Spirit a “Co-Equal Person of the Godhead” – Why is 'HE' not included in the reunion of Christ back in heaven?

Irene,

JA is engaging in faulty logic and so are you. You argue from the silence of one given passage and ignore what is expressly declared in other passages.

Peter said that Ananias and Sapphira lied to the Holy Spirit which was lying to God

Quote

1 But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession. 2 And he kept back part of the proceeds, his wife also being aware of it, and brought a certain part and laid it at the apostles’ feet. 3 But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back part of the price of the land for yourself? 4 While it remained, was it not your own? And after it was sold, was it not in your own control? Why have you conceived this thing in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.”

Jesus said that blasphemy against the Holy Spirit cannot be forgiven. Uh, Irene, one can blaspheme only a PERSON and an unforgiveable blasphemy can be against God only.

Irene:

Quote

Only Jesus will be able to set all straight-IMO

So Jesus will set Peter and Himself straight?

thinker

January 13, 2010 at 5:32 pm#169924

KangarooJack

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 14 2010,03:50)

Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 12 2010,19:04)

My Lord! The ratio of protons to electrons is different in each source. If touched by the sun to a great enough degree I would be vaporized. But if touched to a lesser degree I am only burned. I am still “touched” by the sun in that I am touched by that which emanated from it's core.

This is a very good point Jack.

For Jesus dwells in unapproachable light!

Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; Who only hath immortality, “dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto”; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen. 1 Tim 6:16

This light like the core of the Sun, no man can see and live!

What Glory, What a Mighty God?

Keith,

Amen bro! Hebrews 1 expressly declares that Jesus was the emanation of God's glory. Jesus was not as the moon which only reflects the sun's light. He came out of God's bosom (core):

18No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

So JA is correct that Jesus came “from” God but not in the sense He thinks. Jesus is from God as sun rays are from the sun because they emanate from the sun's core. As the emanations of the sun are sun qualitatively so Jesus as the emanation of God's glory is God qualitatively.

Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. John 8:42

The word “from” is the Greek “ek” which literally means “out of.” Jesus said that He came “out of” God, that is, He emanated from God.

3He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high Heb. 1:3 ESV

Jesus is the “radiance” (emanation) of God's glory and the “exact imprint of His nature.”

Analogy: The sun's rays are the “radiance” of the sun's glory and the “exact imprint of the sun's nature.”

As we are touched by the very sun in its rays so we are touched by very God in the person of Jesus.

AMEN AND AMEN! THANK YOU LORD JESUS!

thinker

January 13, 2010 at 5:36 pm#169925

Participant

Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 13 2010,12:32)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 14 2010,03:50)

Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 12 2010,19:04)

This is a very good point Jack.

For Jesus dwells in unapproachable light!

This light like the core of the Sun, no man can see and live!

What Glory, What a Mighty God?

Keith,

Amen bro! Hebrews 1 expressly declares that Jesus was the emanation of God's glory. Jesus was not as the moon which only reflects the sun's light. He came out of God's bosom (core):

18No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. John 8:42

The word “from” is the Greek “ek” which literally means “out of.” Jesus said that He came “out of” God, that is, He emanated from God.

Jesus is the “radiance” (emanation) of God's glory and the “exact imprint of His nature.”

Analogy: The sun's rays are the “radiance” of the sun's glory and the “exact imprint of the sun's nature.”

As we are touched by the very sun in its rays so we are touched by very God in the person of Jesus.

AMEN AND AMEN! THANK YOU LORD JESUS!

thinker

January 13, 2010 at 5:54 pm#169926

Participant

WJ, There are too many points to come back to you on – Did someone say your were a preacher (please excuse me if I got that wrong).

You said “For Jesus dwells in unapproachable light!”

This is so amazingly lax reading of 1 Timothy 6:13-16:

Quote

13 I charge you in the presence of God, who gives life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who testified the good
confession before Pontius Pilate,
14 that you keep the commandment without stain or reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ,
15 which He will bring about at the proper time—He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and
Lord of lords,
16 who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To
Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.

It is quite clear that “He” and “Him” are refeing to God (the Father). Jesus Christ is mention directly and explicitly so there should be no confusion as to whom the references refer.

Do not confuse the reference to “Lord of lords” and “King of kings” as this is dealt with later on in Revelation – something that I have just come to understand.

Please read this again and take the blinkers off – it is the shear determination to say that Jesus is God that is stopping you from reading and understanding a perfectly simple paragraph of verse text.

Who is it that “alone possesses Immortality”? Is it the first person spoken of (God) or the second (Jesus Christ)
(I am sure those of you who know language structure will know the right words here)
Clearly, it is the first (God)!

I am sure if the verses were write using other names there wouldn't even be a discussion.

————————————————-
WJ and TT,

You said “Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of “the Father”, and of “the Son”, and of “the Holy Ghost”: Matt 28:19″ as proof of Jesus qualifying a Trinity

[QUOTE] A quick Google (it's ok to say this – it's in the dictionary) reveals this website (http://www.focus-search.com/shc/matt2819.html) and text within:

(Invoking the Name):
“…
Historians and biblical encyclopedias all agree that it was the name of Jesus that was invoked in baptism for the first 100 years of the newly founded Church. Some (such as Eusibius of Caesarea) contend that Matthew 28:19 originally did not contain the triune formula at all, but rather stated, “Go ye and make disciples of all the nations in my name.” While all extant manuscripts contain the triune formula, some early church records seem to indicate that the text was changed within the first 100 years to reflect the emerging doctrine of the Trinity. (…)

What did the disciples actually do?

The witness of scripture is clear. From the birth of the Church on the Day of Pentecost and throughout the book of Acts, baptism was consistently preached and administered by the apostles in the name of Jesus Christ, sometimes recorded simply as, “in the name of the Lord, or Lord Jesus”.
…”
———————————————————–
I say:
The very fact that “baptise them in the name of father…son …Holy Spirit.” is nowhere followed by the very people Jesus directly charged with this act (but instead say “In the name of Jesus”) brings into question the validity of the common phrase over what is most likely to have been the origianal (The Scriptures usually has further qualifying text for everything that is said or written: Is there a qualifying text for “…father…Son…Holy spirit”?)

Again, only desparation demands that this verse be used as 'Proof' of a Trinity as nowhere else is there such a phrase (The ONLY other one has categorically been proved to be FAKE and is here not mentioned – How desparate can that be to have to prove something with a LIE… – ask the father of the LIE: Satan! but then would he lie to you – no point!!)
————————————————

… (A Tale of two Versions):
“Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.” (Acts 2:33,39)

I say:
The “Co-Equal GOD (a real Person)” of the Trinity is “Given” as a 'Promise' to Jesus (Who is Also a Co-Equal God!)
How so?

Ok, backs against the wall: They are not – but they are – Co-Equal, but one is more CO-Equal than the other because the Father is the Super-God who issues instructions and orders to HIS Spirit who enacts them and then HE (who is 'he') Subordinates tasks to the Son (Who is Co-Equal) and is in fact God Himself anyway (as wj has said above)…

Confused; I have today created a new word Trinitarian: “The art of invoking confusion to the simplest of systems”

Just like a Liar who cannot remember his previous Lie and then has to invent a new Lie to cover the old Lie when he is confronted with the discovery of the first Lie. And then have to keep Lying not realising that every descening person knows he is Lying.

January 13, 2010 at 6:18 pm#169927

Participant

Wj, TT, I'm willing to also concede on some points you make.

There is a common trick that involves making two people dispute bothe end of a matter and then have one put in indesputable truth somewhere along the line.
Because one or other or both of the contenders insists on their point of view they then dispute the indesputable truth and make liars of both of themselves even though initially, one of them was correct (or at lease 'more correct than the other…!'

January 13, 2010 at 6:24 pm#169928

Participant

Quote (JustAskin @ Jan. 13 2010,12:54)

WJ, There are too many points to come back to you on – Did someone say your were a preacher (please excuse me if I got that wrong).

You said “For Jesus dwells in unapproachable light!”

This is so amazingly lax reading of 1 Timothy 6:13-16:

Quote

It is quite clear that “He” and “Him” are refeing to God (the Father). Jesus Christ is mention directly and explicitly so there should be no confusion as to whom the references refer.

Do not confuse the reference to “Lord of lords” and “King of kings” as this is dealt with later on in Revelation – something that I have just come to understand.

Wrong again. Contextually it is the Lord Jesus and his appearing that is mentioned in verse 14 and then immediately proceeded by the word “He”, and then it is confirmed who the King of Kings and Lord of Lords is. It is a given that the Father has immortality. So Paul’s point here is that Jesus is the Only One with Immortality unless you say that he does not have Immortality.

There is nothing secret about who the Lord of Lords and King of Kings is! (Rev 17:14 and 19:16). The problem that you have is Jesus has the Divine title Lord of Lords and King of Kings.

January 13, 2010 at 6:29 pm#169929

Participant

Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 14 2010,03:25)

Quote (banana @ Jan. 14 2010,02:40)

Quote (JustAskin @ Jan. 14 2010,02:07)

Jesus had the perfect chance to declare the Trinity when he said:
“I and my Father are One”

– He could have said:
“I, my father and the Holy Spirit, are One”

– also he said:
“I am ascending to My Father and Your Father, and My God and Your God”
but could did not include the Holy Spirit:

Remember that the Trinitarian “God” makes the Holy Spirit a “Co-Equal Person of the Godhead” – Why is 'HE' not included in the reunion of Christ back in heaven?

Irene,

JA is engaging in faulty logic and so are you. You argue from the silence of one given passage and ignore what is expressly declared in other passages.

Peter said that Ananias and Sapphira lied to the Holy Spirit which was lying to God

Quote

Jesus said that blasphemy against the Holy Spirit cannot be forgiven. Uh, Irene, one can blaspheme only a PERSON and an unforgiveable blasphemy can be against God only.

Irene:

Quote

Only Jesus will be able to set all straight-IMO

So Jesus will set Peter and Himself straight?

thinker

Hi TT,
Of course lying to the Spirit is lying to God as the Spirit is as the finger of God.[Lk11/Mt12]

God was in heaven where Jesus told us to pray to Him [mt6] but God was in Christ [as Spirit] reconciling the world to himself.[2Cor5].

Now we form a temple for God as Spirit[Eph2]

January 13, 2010 at 7:10 pm#169936

Participant

TT, I don't think Non-(or Anti-)Trinitarians think that the Holy Spirit is NOT God.

I think we say that the Holy Spirit is the HOLY SPIRIT of God (The Father):

– Is OF God (The Father)
– the HOLY SPIRIT OF Jehovah (God, the Father)

What we dispute is that Jesus IS God [Almighty] or any sort of non-figurative God!
( e.g. “…His Name shall be called Mighty God”:
This is not a claim to him being an actual God otherwise
the statement is that he SHALL BECOME a Mighty God…
Even you can't dispute that this is false
)
and that there is a Trinity of the three.

(Someone will copy and paste that last sentence to say that I said “and that there is a Trinity of the three.”)

————————
TT, you said “JA is engaging in faulty logic and so are you. You argue from the silence of one given passage and ignore what is expressly declared in other passages.”

Funny, isn't that what we say about you…?

Ok, is there a chance of any of us admitting when the other is right – we are all ready to barrack the other when things are wrong – or even half wrong – but what about when we argree (sic – my own : I like that new word..!)

It has happened at least twice I think – here speaks the spirit of Christ that is from God the Father.

January 13, 2010 at 7:20 pm#169937

Participant

Quote (JustAskin @ Jan. 13 2010,12:54)

WJ and TT,

A quick Google (it's ok to say this – it's in the dictionary) reveals this website (http://www.focus-search.com/shc/matt2819.html) and text within:

What did the disciples actually do?

As usual when all else fails then the anti-trinitarians have to resort to claims that the scriptures are corrupt. They rely on sources like a rumor that Eusibius of Caesarea claimed that the original text did not contain Matt 28:19 in its current form. Yet there are over 10,000 manuscripts that disagree with this rumor of which they have no evidence of tampering! This is very weak indeed.

The Greek structure of the verse is proof that there are three spoken of in scriptures and confirms many other scriptures which proclaim the three.

The text speaks of “One name” for three persons all having the definite article!

This is not at all contradictory to what the Apostles did for they understood exactly what Jesus meant. They key to the verse is the preceding verse which states…

And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, “All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth”. GO YE THEREFORE, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Matt 28:18, 19

Jesus had been given all authority and power, and he had claimed several times that all that the Father has is his! Because of this he said “Go”! The Apostles knew that Jesus had all the authority in his Fathers name and now it was his and that all fullness of Deity was in him. So they fulfilled his commission to go baptizing in the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ! Now everything that was in the Fathers name is in Jesus name, everything that the Holy Spirit would lead them and guide them in would be in the name of Jesus! No contradiction for all the Fullness of Deity resides in him just as all the fullness of Deity resides in the Father and the Holy Spirit!

Desperation denies that the Text is inspired which brings a big question mark on all of the scriptures for them, and especially a big question mark on their theology.

But this is what we refer to as a “pick and choose theology”. When it suits my doctrine the scripture must be right and when it doesn’t, the scripture is corrupt!

January 13, 2010 at 7:22 pm#169938

Participant

I do see some unity between what both of US are saying – the dis-unity will continue everlasting (Certainly with WJ – I have said before and I do not hide from saying it)

TT, I say to you that you have the spirit to change and please do not snap if I say “Pray to God through jesus” for thus he said to do: Noone comes unto the Father but by me.

Jesus may be our reigning heavenly and spiritual King putting his enemy under his footstool but the Father is still Almighty God and to him be Honor, praise and Worship.

To Jesus be Honor, Praise, and Wealth [but not Worship]

Remember, Worship was what Satan/Lucifer sought and why he fell !!!

I am going to study Revelations and come back with some postings.

January 13, 2010 at 7:35 pm#169939

Participant

Quote (JustAskin @ Jan. 13 2010,12:54)

I agree. Its kinda like the word “Lord” when it agrees, Jesus is the “Only Lord and Master”, ahh but wait a minute he can't be the “Only Master and Lord” because only God is, so goes the thinking of the ant-trinitarian. Or when the scripture doesn't agree with their false doctrine then they say “ah it can't be right so the text is corrupt”.

Its like they look in the mirror of truth and forgetting what they see when they turn around and look at their false doctrines written on their wall, they deny the truth and hold on to their doctrines!

January 13, 2010 at 7:37 pm#169940

Participant

Hi WJ,
Mt 28 does not teach that God is a trinity.
There are no parallel verses to substantiate and explain it .
The apostles all baptised in the name of Jesus so how does this all help your theory?

January 13, 2010 at 8:01 pm#169945

Participant

Hi WJ,
Proof text?
There is not one verse in all scripture that says God is a trinity so which books do you rely on?

January 13, 2010 at 8:05 pm#169946