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Quote Jesus came forth in creation…creation was established with time…so YHWH did nto become a Father nor did Jesus Become a son…until creation began. According to what you wrote above it proves my point. You said YHWH did not become a Father until creation began in saying that you Acknowedge that God is above being a literal Father as He has always been God from Everlasting.
Also you assume that Jesus was created or born at the time of creation yet this is absent in genesis? Was God trying to hide Jesus for thousands of years?
As I have told you the term Son of God is not as unique as you think.
Hasidism and the Galilee
Also preaching and teaching during the time of the Messiah, and also coming from the region of Galilee, were the religious pietists and worshipers known as the “Hasidim.” In fact, says Shmuel Safrai, all the references to the Hasidim in the Second Temple Period relate to the Galilee.
Although Jerusalem Pharisees tended to look down their long noses at Galileans, and others away from Jerusalem, in the period before (compare John 7:52) and immediately after the destruction of the Second Temple in 70 A.D., the Galilee was noted as a place where Torah was taught in public, and in many respects the moral and religious behavior of the Galileans was on a higher level than that of the Judeans. Rabbinic literature refers to Galilean sages teaching in their academies and in the open air of the Galilee, much as Yeshua the Messiah did. Says Safrai:
“Jesus, who was quite closer to the Hasidim and perhaps even involved with some of them, does not therefore reflect Galilean boorishness or ignorance, but rather the dynamism and ongoing creativity of Jewish life in Galilee.”
The Hasidim, like Yeshua the Messiah and the apostles, referred to YEHOVAH God in a very intimate way as “father,” or “abba.” The intimate term “my father in heaven” is found only once in a rabbinical text, and that is actually a text belonging to Hasidic literature. In Hasidic works however the phrase is found often — no fewer than seventeen times in “Seder Eliyahu.” This literature is unique in that it reflects what remains of Hasidic thought and practice embedded in the greater corpus of rabbinic literature. Says Shmuel Safrai:
“It appears . . . that the Hasidim and those associated with them, including Jesus, considered their relationship with God to be one of extreme familiarity . . . However, in Hasidic circles the relationship of a Hasid to God was not just one of 'child of God,' but of a son who can brazenly make requests of his father that someone else cannot make. The Hasid addressed God as 'abba,' 'my father,' or 'my father in heaven,' and the LORD responded the way he responded to 'Hanina, my son.'”
Generally, it was the Hasidic element within the Pharisaical movement to which the people looked when they desired prayer for healing, or exorcism of evil spirits. They had more faith in the prayers of a Galilean Hasid, than in a Jerusalem priest, who were not considered to be that “close” to YEHOVAH God. When the Hasid prayed, they “begged” YEHOVAH, like a little child begs his father. It was “obvious” to them that their prayers would be answered — they had true “faith.”
The Hasidim, also like Yeshua, stressed the qualities and advantages spiritually of poverty. In Hasidic thought, poverty is the ideal state that leads to all other positive and praiseworthy qualities of character. Rabbinic sources, or the Pharisees, on the other hand, seemed to value wealth and at least moderate income, and as a consequence many during the time of the Messiah had become corrupted by the accouterments of power and authority, and the “pleasures” of life that wealth could bring. The tomb of Caiaphas, for example, which was recently found in Jerusalem, showed that he was a wealthy high priest who made use of the perks of his office for self advantage.
What was the view of the Messiah concerning poverty? In the sermon on the mount, He declared: “Blessed are ye that hunger now: for ye shall be filled. Blessed are ye that weep now: for ye shall laugh” (Luke 6:21). “But woe unto you that are rich! for ye have received your consolation. Woe unto you that are full! for ye shall hunger. Woe unto you that laugh now! for ye shall mourn and weep” (verses 24-25). When the young rich man came asking him what to do to inherit eternal life, Yeshua told him he should keep the commandments (Matt.19:17-19). When the man said he kept them, and asked what he still lacked, Yeshua replied: “If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me” (v.21). On hearing that saying, the young man departed sorrowful — for he had great wealth, and was not willing to part with it (v.22).
Considering the deceitfulness of riches, Yeshua then told his disciples: “Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God” (Matt.19:23-24).
The Pharisees of the school of Hillel the Elder already differed from the Hasidim in this respect, during the time of the Messiah. According to Hasidic thought, YEHOVAH God tested Israel in the furnace and found no quality more conducive to holiness than poverty. This view was not, however, common among the Rabbinic sages or Pharisees. Although the typical Pharisee did not esteem to great wealth, he did not look upon poverty as a spiritual blessing to be desired, either.
In another example, Hillel taught that “The ignorant man cannot be a fearer of sin, and the am ha-eretz [poor man or “farmer”, literally, “man of the earth”] cannot be a Hasid.” He was reacting to the teaching of the Hasid who emphasized that DEEDS are more important than “study.” Hillel disagreed, obviously, and emphasized the importance of study of Torah. The story is told about Rabbi Yehoshua ben Hananiah who had to admonish a priestly Hasid who was seemingly ignorant of a number of laws of ritual purity. Says Shmuel Safrai,
“Unlike the sages, however, the Hasidim did not seek a balance between 'study' and 'deed,' but maintained that the deed is to be preferred even at the expense of Torah study. When they mentioned the saying in the Mishnah that refers to the fruits of certain deeds that are enjoyed in the world to come, they delete the saying's conclusion which states that 'the study of Torah is equal to them all.'”
There are a number of anti-Hasidic stories found in rabbinic literature. Even as the Pharisees looked down on the Messiah, and rejected him, they also tended to denigrate and hold in contempt the lowly Hasidim. However, the Hasidim in their views were much closer to the Messiah than the Jerusalem Pharisees, or either the schools of Hillel or Shammai.
Another contrast between the Pharisees and the Hasidim was their view of “faith” and “trust” in YEHOVAH God. The Pharisees took a more worldly, “practical” view of this matter. If a city were surrounded by an enemy king, who demanded the life of a righteous man in the city, or else he would destroy the city, the Pharisees reasoned that it is better for one man to die than an entire city — and would give him up. Most rabbis today would probably say the same thing. It seems practical — common sense.
However, the Hasidim believe YEHOVAH God answers prayer, and they would refuse the evil king's request, and pray to YEHOVAH and trust in Him to defend and protect the city! “According to the teaching of the Hasidim, the residents of the city would not have been harmed had they refused to hand Ulla over to the author
ities. Elijah blamed Rabbi Yehoshua for not trusting in God's intervention.”Concludes Shmuel Safrai: “Basically, we have only veiled references to Hasidic teachings in a literature that is close in spirit but not identical to theirs. This is enough, however, to show us how similar Jesus was to this first-century Galilean group. For the most part, his deeds were in keeping with the tenets of that group.”
However, Yeshua also had much more in common with some of the Pharisees than with others. A careful investigation of the teachings of the schools of Shammai and Hillel shows that in many respects, the school of Hillel came closer to the teachings of the Messiah.
http://www.hope-of-israel.org/hasidim.htm
Don't just read the Bible study the culture and history in which it is in context to.
Thanks for the long post but the difference between christianity and Islam, (I do believe that is what you study based on your various quotes)…Is that
I follow Jesus Christ, the son of the everlasting almighty God.
You follow a prophet who came after Jesus, who used Jesus' quote in regards to the holy spirit…(confusing the holy spirit with himself) as merit to his prophethood.
He may of been a prophet truly…but his teachings contradict the same prophet (Jesus) that claimed and proved he was the Son of God.
Islam also believes Jesus never died…and if thats the case, christianity is false and goes against the very words of Jesus when he said he would die for our sins.
So Islam reveres Jesus as a prophet yet calls him a liar.
That is where we differ, and with that…we have no common ground for debate.
Quote (RokkaMan @ Oct. 31 2009,06:43) Thanks for the long post but the difference between christianity and Islam, (I do believe that is what you study based on your various quotes)…Is that I follow Jesus Christ, the son of the everlasting almighty God.
You follow a prophet who came after Jesus, who used Jesus' quote in regards to the holy spirit…(confusing the holy spirit with himself) as merit to his prophethood.
He may of been a prophet truly…but his teachings contradict the same prophet (Jesus) that claimed and proved he was the Son of God.
Islam also believes Jesus never died…and if thats the case, christianity is false and goes against the very words of Jesus when he said he would die for our sins.
So Islam reveres Jesus as a prophet yet calls him a liar.
That is where we differ, and with that…we have no common ground for debate.
You just need to learn more and that's not a problem because God is working strong within you now.You follow a prophet that came after Jesus or do you not know that much of what you follow is the Gospel of Paul and that is not a point of contention with me but the fact is Jesus was sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel and Paul was sent to the gentiles.
Christianity need not be false for Islam to be right. Jesus said he will be your mediator and he will, he need not had to die for that to occur.
Jesus asked God to save him and Jesus also said thatGod always hears him so by that alone shows Jesus did not want to die in the cross and Islam agrees that God always hears Jesus and would not forsake him and in-fact did save him from the cross.
What I find interesting is how people want to be saved by Jesus but don't want Jesus to be saved by God but if you are saved by Jesus you are saved from death so if Jesus is saved by God he also need not die.
Haha, when Jesus saves us…he saves us from death in our sin…The price for sins is Death.
That is why Jesus had to die…believe me I would love to of replaced myself with Jesus in a heart beat. But I can't….
Just as much as if I were on the cross he'd want to take my place instead…
Someone had to die for the price of sin, that is God's law…and God will not break his own words.
It so happens Jesus was fufilling OUR condemnation…so through him we will be saved.
As he died, God saved him from death and ressurected him and raised him to heaven.
So now when we die, instead of going to hell and burning for our sins…we too will be ressurected….
For when Jesus was on that cross…God look at him and saw us…but when God looks at us he sees Jesus
Amenhi to all
it seems to me that the bible was for the perpose to God to have a people who will represent him on earth and fullfill is will so they could be the exemple to all other nations,they have failt to do so,so God as find good to bring forward is only begoten son,to pay the price of theyr sins but also because of wath they ad than it was extended to all the humain race in due time,this is Jesus Christ the only man to give up is live so that God can forgive theyr sins by producing good deeds.and in exenge receive everlasting live.there is no one in any other religion story,book,beleives of any kind who as this reconsiliation with God and have a future ……Quote (RokkaMan @ Oct. 31 2009,07:04) Haha, when Jesus saves us…he saves us from death in our sin…The price for sins is Death. That is why Jesus had to die…believe me I would love to of replaced myself with Jesus in a heart beat. But I can't….
Just as much as if I were on the cross he'd want to take my place instead…
Someone had to die for the price of sin, that is God's law…and God will not break his own words.
It so happens Jesus was fufilling OUR condemnation…so through him we will be saved.
As he died, God saved him from death and ressurected him and raised him to heaven.
So now when we die, instead of going to hell and burning for our sins…we too will be ressurected….
For when Jesus was on that cross…God look at him and saw us…but when God looks at us he sees Jesus
Amen
If the price of sin is burning in Hell then how is it you say Jesus paid that price? He is not burning in Hell, he is in the presence of God.It is appointed for all men to die once and we still will so what actually was paid? Jesus didn't die spritually did he?
God saved him from death because he was not killed or crucified but God raised him up to his presence ALIVE why do you think descriptions of Jesus is revelations is that of someone who has been aging?
When he returns you will see Jesus Christ the only person to have lived over 2000 years old hence the scriptures show the possibility of such in genesis. The soul that sinneth shall die and yet you agree that Jesus did not sin.
Quote (bodhitharta @ Oct. 30 2009,02:42) Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 30 2009,18:16) Bo,
You say that Christ had no actual Father and that proves that the God of the Qua'ran is different than the God of the Bible because the Bible says that Jesus' Father is God Himself. God so loved the world that He gave His Only Begotten Son. It doesn't say that He gave His created son. There lies a big difference.If you want to think about a miracle think about this, the Son of God who had existed already since before creation as a living being and then morphing into a human baby's body because He and His Father cared for us. I think that is pretty impressive but you are right, creation of Adam is amazing also.
I must ask you if Jesus was a being before coming to earth did he go himself into Mary or did God place him in Mary?at what time wasn't God your Father?
Hi Bo,
It was a cooperative effort, both had a part in it from what I can tell.Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 31 2009,13:07) Quote (bodhitharta @ Oct. 30 2009,02:42) Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 30 2009,18:16) Bo,
You say that Christ had no actual Father and that proves that the God of the Qua'ran is different than the God of the Bible because the Bible says that Jesus' Father is God Himself. God so loved the world that He gave His Only Begotten Son. It doesn't say that He gave His created son. There lies a big difference.If you want to think about a miracle think about this, the Son of God who had existed already since before creation as a living being and then morphing into a human baby's body because He and His Father cared for us. I think that is pretty impressive but you are right, creation of Adam is amazing also.
I must ask you if Jesus was a being before coming to earth did he go himself into Mary or did God place him in Mary?at what time wasn't God your Father?
Hi Bo,
It was a cooperative effort, both had a part in it from what I can tell.
So God didn't send Jesus? They agreed he would go?Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 31 2009,13:47) Hi BD,
Satan was our father till we met the Son of God.
That's not Jesus told his disciples or anyone when he taught them how to pray. was it?Hi BD,
Who is talking of prayer here?
You must be born again into the Son of God.
Then the way to the heart of the Father God is open.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 31 2009,14:16) Hi BD,
Who is talking of prayer here?
You must be born again into the Son of God.
Then the way to the heart of the Father God is open.
Jesus said you must be born again he didn't say be born again into him did he?Quote (bodhitharta @ Oct. 31 2009,14:29) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 31 2009,14:16) Hi BD,
Who is talking of prayer here?
You must be born again into the Son of God.
Then the way to the heart of the Father God is open.
Jesus said you must be born again he didn't say be born again into him did he?
Where else would you be born into? The sinful world…or born into the spiritual things of christ?The same christ who died to provide a gateway to YHWH himself.
Hi BD,
Have you not joined the body of Christ partaking of Christ [Heb3] with the Lord Jesus as your head, and become a branch of the Vine[ jn10]?
You need to be baptised into Christ to put on Christ [gal3.27]and his Spirit from his Father must come to live in you[Gal4.19]
There is no life outside of that vine or any ability to produce good fruit but only thorns and thistles.Quote (RokkaMan @ Nov. 01 2009,07:35) Quote (bodhitharta @ Oct. 31 2009,14:29) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 31 2009,14:16) Hi BD,
Who is talking of prayer here?
You must be born again into the Son of God.
Then the way to the heart of the Father God is open.
Jesus said you must be born again he didn't say be born again into him did he?
Where else would you be born into? The sinful world…or born into the spiritual things of christ?The same christ who died to provide a gateway to YHWH himself.
You are not born into anything. To be born again means to turn away from the sinful world and follow the path of all the prophets into Godliness.Hi BD,
Really?
You can rebirth yourself?
Any old self appointed prophet is good enough?No Jesus is the source for us of the waters that well up to everlasting life [jn7]and rebirth is of that Spirit, not man's willing.[Jn1]
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 01 2009,11:04) Hi BD,
Really?
You can rebirth yourself?
Any old self appointed prophet is good enough?No Jesus is the source for us of the waters that well up to everlasting life [jn7]and rebirth is of that Spirit, not man's willing.[Jn1]
Jesus said you can be born again whike he was still on earth so you must not design your own vision it is what it is.Quote (bodhitharta @ Oct. 30 2009,22:03) Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 31 2009,13:07) Quote (bodhitharta @ Oct. 30 2009,02:42) Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 30 2009,18:16) Bo,
You say that Christ had no actual Father and that proves that the God of the Qua'ran is different than the God of the Bible because the Bible says that Jesus' Father is God Himself. God so loved the world that He gave His Only Begotten Son. It doesn't say that He gave His created son. There lies a big difference.If you want to think about a miracle think about this, the Son of God who had existed already since before creation as a living being and then morphing into a human baby's body because He and His Father cared for us. I think that is pretty impressive but you are right, creation of Adam is amazing also.
I must ask you if Jesus was a being before coming to earth did he go himself into Mary or did God place him in Mary?at what time wasn't God your Father?
Hi Bo,
It was a cooperative effort, both had a part in it from what I can tell.
So God didn't send Jesus? They agreed he would go?
Bo,
God did send Him and He willingly went. Both were involved in Christ's coming in the flesh.My opinion,
KathiQuote (bodhitharta @ Oct. 30 2009,02:42) Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 30 2009,18:16) Bo,
You say that Christ had no actual Father and that proves that the God of the Qua'ran is different than the God of the Bible because the Bible says that Jesus' Father is God Himself. God so loved the world that He gave His Only Begotten Son. It doesn't say that He gave His created son. There lies a big difference.If you want to think about a miracle think about this, the Son of God who had existed already since before creation as a living being and then morphing into a human baby's body because He and His Father cared for us. I think that is pretty impressive but you are right, creation of Adam is amazing also.
I must ask you if Jesus was a being before coming to earth did he go himself into Mary or did God place him in Mary?at what time wasn't God your Father?
Bo,
You asked “at what time was God not your Father?” and in my personal journey, I have always accepted God as my Father. Other's learn of Him when they are older and knowingly turn from their old ways and make Jesus Lord of their lives and repent from their sins. That is what being “born again” is. It is then when they too know that God is not only someone bigger than creation but that God is their Father and they are His child. Being “born again” means that you now not only have an earthly father but you also have a heavenly Father. The lost do not know that they have a Father who knows them intimately and who longs for a relationship with them.I hope that answers your question.
Your friend,
Kathi
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