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Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 28 2009,04:50) Hi Rokkaman,
It is good to see you. I asked you something in the “My eyes are open” thread and am interested in your reply.Anyway, I agree with you in that when we say “God” we should clarify what we mean. When I say “Most High God” I am referring to the Father of Jesus and the source of all that is good-the God of the Bible. When I say “Begotten God” I am referring to the Son of the Most High God who became Jesus. When I say the God of the Qua'ran I am talking about the god of the Islam religion commonly referred to as “Allah” of which I am not a follower of.
Now what is a little complicated is when we say “YHWH” we can find times when someone appeared as a man with the name YHWH. For instance:
Gen 18:1-2
Now the Lord(YHWH) appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre, while he was sitting at the tent door in the heat of the day.
2 When he lifted up his eyes and looked, behold, three men were standing opposite him; and when he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them and bowed himself to the earth,
NASUMany say that this “YHWH” was the pre-incarnate Jesus in which I tend to agree with. I see that in the New Testament that Jesus says that the Father has given Him (Jesus) His (the Father's) name. See here:
John 17:11-12
11 “I am no longer in the world; and yet they themselves are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep them in Your name, the name which You have given Me, that they may be one even as We are.
12 “While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled.
NASUSo, even the name YHWH needs clarification.
Blessings,
Kathi
The answer to that is in the very quote you provided.Holy Father, keep them in Your name, the name which You have given Me
The name you have Given me.
YHWH gave his name to Jesus.
It makes perfect sense if Jesus is YHWH's reflection in everyway.
So who Jesus is and everything he stands for is God.
He's not actually God, but everything he is, is a pure imitation.
Glorfied and righteous in everyway.I do not try to paint Jesus as anything lesser…I recognize his deity as one who has the fullness of God dwelling within him…
Meaning everything that makes God, God…Jesus so too posessess…but it was all Given…that is the difference between him and YHWH.
YHWH is God…Jesus is made in his likeness (was made God).
But Jesus too shares the same God we do. Although he is greater than everything but YHWH himself.I too believe he was in the garden as a pre-existent Jesus …..but you know what?
It's just speculation and wishful thinking. No one knows for sure, and there's no way we can find out through scripture…it's just not clear. Many things are suggested, but we cannot build faith based upon suggestion.
The bible doesn't claim to have all the answers, nor does any religion, nor does science…and if we did have all the answers…we'd have the knowledge of God…in which we are not designed to have.
Imagine a Dog gaining the intellect of a human being….the dog would go nutz and probably kill himself cause he couldn't handle it. It's against his nature.
So as we are in these human bodies, so too is it against our nature to have the wisdom of God…I believe there's only so much we can dig, till we start diggin in forbidden terrirtory that can start distorting our understanding (hell).
—————————————————
And don't get it confused when I say Jesus is God of all things, I use that as a title…not as polytheism =PQuote (bodhitharta @ Oct. 27 2009,04:27) Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 27 2009,15:59) Quote (bodhitharta @ Oct. 26 2009,23:15) Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 27 2009,15:08) Quote (bodhitharta @ Oct. 26 2009,22:43) Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 27 2009,14:25) Quote (bodhitharta @ Oct. 26 2009,15:28) Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 27 2009,05:02) Quote (bodhitharta @ Oct. 26 2009,03:28) Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 26 2009,14:51) Hi Bo,
Do you have a specific Bible verse that says this:Quote …God does not procreate He creates. If I worship God and serve Him only then I would also worship His Son as an expression of my worship to the Father. Why Bo, do you think that it is requested of the angels to worship the Son but it would be blaspheme for man to worship the Son?
Don't get confused…I worship one Most High God and only one Most High God. The Son is the Only Begotten God, not the Most High God. My worship of the Son is an expression of my worship of the Father. The Son is not a “partner” of the Most High God but a Son of the Most High God. There is a difference.
Yes, I do the first entire chapters of the Bible points out that God CREATED everything. If God created everything he could not have procreated anything.
Hi Bo,
I realize that God created the heavens and the earth and that the New Testament shows us that He did this with His Son. We also read that His Son was the firstborn of all creation and it doesn't say that He was the first-created of all creation. So what does firstborn generally mean…the first out of the womb. Where do sons generally come from…reproduction and Jesus spoke about who He came from…the Father. So, either the Son was a literal son as an offspring of the Father or He was the Father that became His own Son, or He was a hybrid man/god who began in Mary, or He was an eternally generated son that always existed and not a true son but merely acts like a son and merely acts like the other person is his father who is not truly his father and they are two persons of a three person single being of which the son-person became a man also. Or he was just a man who was able to not sin…I can't think of any other possibilities.I'm going with the literal son begotten before creation theory because that is what I believe God showed me. It is also very simple and relates to how creation demonstrates what a son is. I would be surprised if you can find that in the quaran because I think that satan would want to lead away from that simple truth.
My opinion,
Kathi
Angels are also called the sons of God before Jesus came to earth but just to let you know the Quran does say:(6) O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) an apostle of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His apostles. Say not “Trinity” : desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah. Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs.
( سورة النساء , An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #171)So the Quran is simply making it a clear issue God that created Jesus by simply saying “BE” and he was. The words of God are spirit and Jesus was spoken into existence and then that Spirit also became flesh through Mary
47She said: “O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man hath touched me?” He said: “Even so: Allah createth what He willeth: When He hath decreed a plan, He but saith to it, 'Be,' and it is!
Sura #3
You see? Allah creates what he wills and Jesus created or Gotten with a Word and it was BE.
Jesus was the only person created with a word because Adam was created from the earth and God breathed life into him but Jesus came from a command such as let there “Be” light
Hi Bo,You said:
Quote You see? Allah creates what he wills and Jesus created or Gotten with a Word and it was BE. You do realize Bo, I do not recognize Allah from the quaran as who I follow-sorry. If you want to convince me that the Son was created you will have to find it in the Bible.
Thanks, Kathi
Why would you not recognize Allah when Arab Christians recognize Allah do you also not recognize Alaha whom Jesus called God in his language of Aramaich?You have already admitted that God created “everything”
Are you saying God created everything but Jesus because if that is the case Jesus would be equal to God in every way. Jesus would not have a Creator God.I think I understand that your view is more like God squezzed himself like toothpaste and Jesus was the result but even so Jesus ordered you to worship who he worships with ALL your heart , soul and Mind and to proclaim his God as the ONLY GOD so why be disobedient?
Bo,
The “God” of the quaran is not the same as the “God” of the Bible even if the word for God is Allah in Aramaic. I do not follow the God of the quaran. God created everything except His Son, that is what I believe. However God would beget is not important enough for us to know because the Bible doesn't tell us how but it does tell us that the Son was begotten and the “only” begotten at that. Since He was the “only” begotten that sets Him apart even from the angels who ar
e called sons. The angels were created the Only Begotten Son was not. His beginning was not by a creative act but a reproductive act because that is how sons are begotten. IMOKathi
So how exactly does God reproduce?By the way, who told you that Allah was not the same God of the Bible.
I will tell you for a certainty that God/The Spirit of God did not tell you that.
Allah is The God of Abraham and there is no other God. God will reveal more to you soon enough but right now you worship two Gods so you will have to first get past that because it is a belief even more straying from the truth than believing in a triune God.
Polytheistic either way.
Bo,
I said that I don't know how God reproduced, we are not told.The God of the quaran is not a Heavenly Father, the God of the Bible is. Here is a list of differences from what I have been told:
The God of the Bible:
Knowable
Personal
Immutable
Trustworthy
Loving
Saves by graceThe God of the Quaran
Unknowable
Non-personal
Changeable
Capricious
Remote
Saves by works of legalismThen there is the Biblical Jesus who is:
Begotten God incarnate (as per my understanding)…both God and man
Died on the cross for our sins
Rose from the deadIslam's Jesus:
Merely one of many prophets
Did not die on a cross
Was taken into paradiseBiblical salvation:
Men and women born sinners in need of a savior
By grace through faith in Jesus Christ
Assurance of salvation possibleIslam's salvation:
Men and women not sinners
They only need teachers and guides
Saved by works of legalism (five pillars of faith)
No assurance of salvation (unless you die as a martyr in a Holy War or Jihad)See, they are different with different teachings.
So do you worship the God of the Bible and the God of the Qur'an then if you do, you worship two opposing Gods and that would truly be a problem with the God of Israel.
I do not worship two different sources, just one and that One has given us His Son (whom He calls “God” BTW see Hebrews 1) who is definitely not in opposition but instead they are in unity. I worship the Father and the Son, they are one in unity. You seem to worship the God of the Bible and the God of the Qur'an and they are two sources not in unity. That would be what the God of Israel is against, IMO.
Kathi
There is only One God.I really respect your striving to understand the scriptures so please don't take our conversation in any other way.
“Invite (all) to the Way of thy Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching; and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious: for thy Lord knoweth best, who have strayed from His Path, and who receive guidance.” Qur'an 16:125
When I study I don't just study the words but I also study the culture and the meaning and usage of phrases so in that pursuit I offer you this:
Psalm 2:7 (King James Version)
7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
This is just to say that David called himself begotten of God. Now you may want to assume that David was speaking about Christ here but he wasn't if we are really being honest about it. But you must understand that it was fairly common
Here is God talking to David about Solomon “I will be His Father and he will be my son. I will never take my love away from him, as I took it away from your predecessor. (Chronicles 17:13)
We also see in the scripture when Isaac is said to be the only son of Abraham but we all know that is not the case but what was the case was that Isaac was chosen to receive the covenant and authority. It seems to me based upon David and Solomon that Jesus was the one receiving the covenant and the promise which would simply mean that he was the only one with true authority to represent God, just as David and Solomon had.
Now in regards to the Quran God is as He is described in The Bible He is THE CREATOR.
(1) Know you not that it is Allah to Whom belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth? And besides Allah you have neither any Wali (protector or Guardian) nor any helper.
( سورة البقرة , Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #107)God is not a male or a female it is more clear to say that God is your Guardian to say God is your Father may be comforting but the fact is God is your Guardian.
Just remember God made Male and Female in His image but God is a Spirit so He is beyond physical limitations or definitions therefore Father is a relative term.
Now this is what you said:
Quote The God of the Bible
Knowable:Yet God says: For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
Isaiah 55:8-10Personal= (1) And indeed We have created man, and We know what his ownself whispers to him. And We are nearer to him than his jugular vein (by Our Knowledge).
( سورة ق , Qaf, Chapter #50, Verse #16)Immutable= (22) The same religion has He established for you as that which He enjoined on Noah – the which We have sent by inspiration to thee – and that which We enjoined on Abraham, Moses, and Jesus: Namely, that ye should remain steadfast in religion, and make no divisions therein: to those who worship other things than Allah, hard is the (way) to which thou callest them. Allah chooses to Himself those whom He pleases, and guides to Himself those who turn (to Him).
( سورة الشورى , Ash-Shura, Chapter #42, Verse #13)18) Then contemplate (O man!) the memorials of Allah.s Mercy!- how He gives life to the earth after its death: verily the same will give life to the men who are dead: for He has power over all things.
( سورة الروم , Ar-Room, Chapter #30, Verse #50)Trustworthy=256 Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things. ( سورة البقرة , Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #256)
Loving= (1) “And ask forgiveness of your Lord and turn unto Him in repentance. Verily, my Lord is Most Merciful, Most loving.”
( سورة هود , Hud, Chapter #11, Verse #90)(4) And He is the Oft-Forgiving, Full of loving-Kindness,
( سورة البروج , Al-Burooj, Chapter #85, Verse #14)Saves by grace= (1) The way of those on whom Thou hast bestowed Thy grace, those whose (portion) is not wrath, and who go not astray.
( سورة الفاتحة , Al-Fatiha, Chapter #1, Verse #7)(11) They glory in the grace and the bounty from Allah, and in the fact that Allah suffereth not the reward of the Faithful to be lost (in the least).
( سورة آل عمران , Aal-e-Imran, Chapter #3, Verse #171)(4) “On that day, if the penalty is averted from any, it is due to Allah.s mercy; And that would be (salvation), the obvious fulfilment of all desire.
( سورة الأنعام
, Al-Anaam, Chapter #6, Verse #16)(8) But Allah will deliver the righteous to their place of salvation: no evil shall touch them, nor shall they grieve.
( سورة الزمر , Az-Zumar, Chapter #39, Verse #61)So as you can see there is Only One God who saves by his Mercy and Grace. but those who do not repent are simply harming themselves you do believe in Hell so therefore you know God will not excuse the guilty and those are those who do not repent and does not believe.
For if ye turn again unto the LORD, your brethren and your children shall find compassion before them that lead them captive, so that they shall come again into this land: for the LORD your God is gracious and merciful, and will not turn away his face from you, if ye return unto him.
2 Chronicles 30:8-10(15) Say: “If ye do love Allah, Follow me: Allah will love you and forgive you your sins: For Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most merciful.”
( سورة آل عمران , Aal-e-Imran, Chapter #3, Verse #31)(26) If any one does evil or wrongs his own soul but afterwards seeks Allah.s forgiveness, he will find Allah Oft-forgiving, Most merciful.
( سورة النساء , An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #110)(31) But if the thief repents after his crime, and amends his conduct, Allah turneth to him in forgiveness; for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most merciful.
( سورة المائدة , Al-Maeda, Chapter #5, Verse #39)(32) Why turn they not to Allah, and seek His forgiveness? For Allah is Oft- forgiving, Most merciful.
( سورة المائدة , Al-Maeda, Chapter #5, Verse #74)(34) When those come to thee who believe in Our signs, Say: “Peace be on you: Your Lord hath inscribed for Himself (the rule of) mercy: verily, if any of you did evil in ignorance, and thereafter repented, and amend (his conduct), lo! He is Oft- forgiving, Most merciful.
( سورة الأنعام , Al-Anaam, Chapter #6, Verse #54)(38) But those who do wrong but repent thereafter and (truly) believe,- verily thy Lord is thereafter Oft-Forgiving, Most merciful.
( سورة الأعراف , Al-Araf, Chapter #7, Verse #153)22 He is Allah, beside Whom La ilaha illa Huwa (none has the right to be worshipped but He) the All-Knower of the unseen and the seen. He is the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful.
23 He is Allah beside Whom La ilaha illa Huwa (none has the right to be worshipped but He), the King, the Holy, the One Free from all defects, the Giver of security, the Watcher over His creatures, the All-Mighty, the Compeller, the Supreme. Glory be to Allah! (High is He) above all that they associate as partners with Him.
24 He is Allah, the Creator, the Inventor of all things, the Bestower of forms. To Him belong the Best Names. All that is in the heavens and the earth glorify Him. And He is the All-Mighty, the All-Wise.( سورة الحشر , Al-Hashr, Chapter #59, Verse #22 – #24 )
God Bless You!
Hi Bo,
You said:Quote Personal= (1) And indeed We have created man, and We know what his ownself whispers to him. And We are nearer to him than his jugular vein (by Our Knowledge).
( سورة ق , Qaf, Chapter #50, Verse #16)Can you tell me who the “we” are in the above quote?
Thanks,
KathiBTW the God of the Quaran IS The God of the bible…The religion's perspective of him is just different and incomplete…as is our understanding.
But The Quaran's information does come from The Ancient Hebrew Bible…
Hi RM,
Their god is of contention and earthly Jihad.
It is not of the bible or of Israel or of Jesus.It is of falsehood.
Like Mormons they copy what is truth to give an aura of authenticity but they cannot save.
Let the dead bury the dead.
Quote (RokkaMan @ Oct. 28 2009,05:23) But we know that YHWH put all things under Jesus. If that is so Jesus is God of all things except the one who put all things under him…Is that not scripture? So disagreeing with me is also disagreeing with scripture.
No disagreement.Quote (RokkaMan @ Oct. 28 2009,05:46) Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 28 2009,04:50) Hi Rokkaman,
It is good to see you. I asked you something in the “My eyes are open” thread and am interested in your reply.Anyway, I agree with you in that when we say “God” we should clarify what we mean. When I say “Most High God” I am referring to the Father of Jesus and the source of all that is good-the God of the Bible. When I say “Begotten God” I am referring to the Son of the Most High God who became Jesus. When I say the God of the Qua'ran I am talking about the god of the Islam religion commonly referred to as “Allah” of which I am not a follower of.
Now what is a little complicated is when we say “YHWH” we can find times when someone appeared as a man with the name YHWH. For instance:
Gen 18:1-2
Now the Lord(YHWH) appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre, while he was sitting at the tent door in the heat of the day.
2 When he lifted up his eyes and looked, behold, three men were standing opposite him; and when he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them and bowed himself to the earth,
NASUMany say that this “YHWH” was the pre-incarnate Jesus in which I tend to agree with. I see that in the New Testament that Jesus says that the Father has given Him (Jesus) His (the Father's) name. See here:
John 17:11-12
11 “I am no longer in the world; and yet they themselves are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep them in Your name, the name which You have given Me, that they may be one even as We are.
12 “While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled.
NASUSo, even the name YHWH needs clarification.
Blessings,
Kathi
The answer to that is in the very quote you provided.Holy Father, keep them in Your name, the name which You have given Me
The name you have Given me.
YHWH gave his name to Jesus.
It makes perfect sense if Jesus is YHWH's reflection in everyway.
So who Jesus is and everything he stands for is God.
He's not actually God, but everything he is, is a pure imitation.
Glorfied and righteous in everyway.I do not try to paint Jesus as anything lesser…I recognize his deity as one who has the fullness of God dwelling within him…
Meaning everything that makes God, God…Jesus so too posessess…but it was all Given…that is the difference between him and YHWH.
YHWH is God…Jesus is made in his likeness (was made God).
But Jesus too shares the same God we do. Although he is greater than everything but YHWH himself.I too believe he was in the garden as a pre-existent Jesus …..but you know what?
It's just speculation and wishful thinking. No one knows for sure, and there's no way we can find out through scripture…it's just not clear. Many things are suggested, but we cannot build faith based upon suggestion.
The bible doesn't claim to have all the answers, nor does any religion, nor does science…and if we did have all the answers…we'd have the knowledge of God…in which we are not designed to have.
Imagine a Dog gaining the intellect of a human being….the dog would go nutz and probably kill himself cause he couldn't handle it. It's against his nature.
So as we are in these human bodies, so too is it against our nature to have the wisdom of God…I believe there's only so much we can dig, till we start diggin in forbidden terrirtory that can start distorting our understanding (hell).
—————————————————
And don't get it confused when I say Jesus is God of all things, I use that as a title…not as polytheism =P
WoW! God is really blessing you and it is just wonderful to see this happen before our very eyes:(1) He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: “We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:” and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.
( سورة آل عمران , Aal-e-Imran, Chapter #3, Verse #7)(2) One day will Allah gather the apostles together, and ask: “What was the response ye received (from men to your teaching)?” They will say: “We have no knowledge: it is Thou Who knowest in full all that is hidden.”
( سورة المائدة , Al-Maeda, Chapter #5, Verse #109)(3) Say: “Verily my Lord doth cast the (mantle of) Truth (over His servants),- He that has full knowledge of (all) that is hidden.”
( سورة سبأ , Saba, Chapter #34, Verse #48)(4) Verily Allah knows (all) the hidden things of the heavens and the earth: verily He has full knowledge of all that is in (men's) hearts.
( سورة فاطر , Fatir, Chapter #35, Verse #38)Hi RM,
So scripture says the FULLNESS OF DEITY was in him.[col]
He was given the fullness of the Spirit of God as Jn 3 tells us
He was filled with the fullness of God just as we can be[Eph3.19]
Because of this as an infilled vessel he revealed God IN HIM[2Cor5]Do you think he was also God?
Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 28 2009,05:56) Quote (bodhitharta @ Oct. 27 2009,04:27) Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 27 2009,15:59) Quote (bodhitharta @ Oct. 26 2009,23:15) Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 27 2009,15:08) Quote (bodhitharta @ Oct. 26 2009,22:43) Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 27 2009,14:25) Quote (bodhitharta @ Oct. 26 2009,15:28) Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 27 2009,05:02) Quote (bodhitharta @ Oct. 26 2009,03:28) Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 26 2009,14:51) Hi Bo,
Do you have a specific Bible verse that says this:Quote …God does not procreate He creates. If I worship God and serve Him only then I would also worship His Son as an expression of my worship to the Father. Why Bo, do you think that it is requested of the angels to worship the Son but it would be blaspheme for man to worship the Son?
Don't get confused…I worship one Most High God and only one Most High God. The Son is the Only Begotten God, not the Most High God. My worship of the Son is an expression of my worship of the Father. The Son is not a “partner” of the Most High God but a Son of the Most High God. There is a difference.
Yes, I do the first entire chapters of the Bible points out that God CREATED everything. If God created everything he could not have procreated anything.
Hi Bo,
I realize that God created the heavens and the earth and that the New Testament shows us that He did this with His Son. We also read that His Son was the firstborn of all creation and it doesn't say that He was the first-created of all creation. So what does firstborn generally mean…the first out of the womb. Where do sons generally come from…reproduction and Jesus spoke about who He came from…the Father. So, either the Son was a literal son as an offspring of the Father or He was the Father that became His own Son, or He was a hybrid man/god who began in Mary, or He was an eternally generated son that always existed and not a true son but merely acts like a son and merely acts like the other person is his father who is not truly his father and they are two persons of a three person single being of which the son-person became a man also. Or he was just a man who was able to not sin…I can't think of any other possibilities.I'm going with the literal son begotten before creation theory because that is what I believe God showed me. It is also very simple and relates to how creation demonstrates what a son is. I would be surprised if you can find that in the quaran because I think that satan would want to lead away from that simple truth.
My opinion,
Kathi
Angels are also called the sons of God before Jesus came to earth but just to let you know the Quran does say:(6) O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) an apostle of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His apostles. Say not “Trinity” : desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah. Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs.
( سورة النساء , An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #171)So the Quran is simply making it a clear issue God that created Jesus by simply saying “BE” and he was. The words of God are spirit and Jesus was spoken into existence and then that Spirit also became flesh through Mary
47She said: “O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man hath touched me?” He said: “Even so: Allah createth what He willeth: When He hath decreed a plan, He but saith to it, 'Be,' and it is!
Sura #3
You see? Allah creates what he wills and Jesus created or Gotten with a Word and it was BE.
Jesus was the only person created with a word because Adam was created from the earth and God breathed life into him but Jesus came from a command such as let there “Be” light
Hi Bo,You said:
Quote You see? Allah creates what he wills and Jesus created or Gotten with a Word and it was BE. You do realize Bo, I do not recognize Allah from the quaran as who I follow-sorry. If you want to convince me that the Son was created you will have to find it in the Bible.
Thanks, Kathi
Why would you not recognize Allah when Arab Christians recognize Allah do you also not recognize Alaha whom Jesus called God in his language of Aramaich?You have already admitted that God created “everything”
Are you saying God created everything but Jesus because if that is the case Jesus would be equal to God in every way. Jesus would not have a Creator God.I think I understand that your view is more like God squezzed himself like toothpaste and Jesus was the result but even so Jesus ordered you to worship who he worships with ALL your heart , soul and Mind and to proclaim his God as the ONLY GOD so why be disobedient?
Bo,
The “God” of the quaran is not the same as the “God” of the Bible even if the word for God is Allah in Aramaic. I do not follow the God of the quaran. God created everything except His Son, that is what I believe. However God would beget is not important e
nough for us to know because the Bible doesn't tell us how but it does tell us that the Son was begotten and the “only” begotten at that. Since He was the “only” begotten that sets Him apart even from the angels who are called sons. The angels were created the Only Begotten Son was not. His beginning was not by a creative act but a reproductive act because that is how sons are begotten. IMOKathi
So how exactly does God reproduce?By the way, who told you that Allah was not the same God of the Bible.
I will tell you for a certainty that God/The Spirit of God did not tell you that.
Allah is The God of Abraham and there is no other God. God will reveal more to you soon enough but right now you worship two Gods so you will have to first get past that because it is a belief even more straying from the truth than believing in a triune God.
Polytheistic either way.
Bo,
I said that I don't know how God reproduced, we are not told.The God of the quaran is not a Heavenly Father, the God of the Bible is. Here is a list of differences from what I have been told:
The God of the Bible:
Knowable
Personal
Immutable
Trustworthy
Loving
Saves by graceThe God of the Quaran
Unknowable
Non-personal
Changeable
Capricious
Remote
Saves by works of legalismThen there is the Biblical Jesus who is:
Begotten God incarnate (as per my understanding)…both God and man
Died on the cross for our sins
Rose from the deadIslam's Jesus:
Merely one of many prophets
Did not die on a cross
Was taken into paradiseBiblical salvation:
Men and women born sinners in need of a savior
By grace through faith in Jesus Christ
Assurance of salvation possibleIslam's salvation:
Men and women not sinners
They only need teachers and guides
Saved by works of legalism (five pillars of faith)
No assurance of salvation (unless you die as a martyr in a Holy War or Jihad)See, they are different with different teachings.
So do you worship the God of the Bible and the God of the Qur'an then if you do, you worship two opposing Gods and that would truly be a problem with the God of Israel.
I do not worship two different sources, just one and that One has given us His Son (whom He calls “God” BTW see Hebrews 1) who is definitely not in opposition but instead they are in unity. I worship the Father and the Son, they are one in unity. You seem to worship the God of the Bible and the God of the Qur'an and they are two sources not in unity. That would be what the God of Israel is against, IMO.
Kathi
There is only One God.I really respect your striving to understand the scriptures so please don't take our conversation in any other way.
“Invite (all) to the Way of thy Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching; and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious: for thy Lord knoweth best, who have strayed from His Path, and who receive guidance.” Qur'an 16:125
When I study I don't just study the words but I also study the culture and the meaning and usage of phrases so in that pursuit I offer you this:
Psalm 2:7 (King James Version)
7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
This is just to say that David called himself begotten of God. Now you may want to assume that David was speaking about Christ here but he wasn't if we are really being honest about it. But you must understand that it was fairly common
Here is God talking to David about Solomon “I will be His Father and he will be my son. I will never take my love away from him, as I took it away from your predecessor. (Chronicles 17:13)
We also see in the scripture when Isaac is said to be the only son of Abraham but we all know that is not the case but what was the case was that Isaac was chosen to receive the covenant and authority. It seems to me based upon David and Solomon that Jesus was the one receiving the covenant and the promise which would simply mean that he was the only one with true authority to represent God, just as David and Solomon had.
Now in regards to the Quran God is as He is described in The Bible He is THE CREATOR.
(1) Know you not that it is Allah to Whom belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth? And besides Allah you have neither any Wali (protector or Guardian) nor any helper.
( سورة البقرة , Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #107)God is not a male or a female it is more clear to say that God is your Guardian to say God is your Father may be comforting but the fact is God is your Guardian.
Just remember God made Male and Female in His image but God is a Spirit so He is beyond physical limitations or definitions therefore Father is a relative term.
Now this is what you said:
Quote The God of the Bible
Knowable:Yet God says: For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
Isaiah 55:8-10Personal= (1) And indeed We have created man, and We know what his ownself whispers to him. And We are nearer to him than his jugular vein (by Our Knowledge).
( سورة ق , Qaf, Chapter #50, Verse #16)Immutable= (22) The same religion has He established for you as that which He enjoined on Noah – the which We have sent by inspiration to thee – and that which We enjoined on Abraham, Moses, and Jesus: Namely, that ye should remain steadfast in religion, and make no divisions therein: to those who worship other things than Allah, hard is the (way) to which thou callest them. Allah chooses to Himself those whom He pleases, and guides to Himself those who turn (to Him).
( سورة الشورى , Ash-Shura, Chapter #42, Verse #13)18) Then contemplate (O man!) the memorials of Allah.s Mercy!- how He gives life to the earth after its death: verily the same will give life to the men who are dead: for He has power over all things.
( سورة الروم , Ar-Room, Chapter #30, Verse #50)Trustworthy=256 Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things. ( سورة البقرة , Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #256)
Loving= (1) “And ask forgiveness of your Lord and turn unto Him in repentance. Verily, my Lord is Most Merciful, Most loving.”
( سورة هود , Hud, Chapter #11, Verse #90)(4) And He is the Oft-Forgiving, Full of loving-Kindness,
( سورة البروج , Al-Burooj, Chapter #85, Verse #14)Saves by grace= (1) The way of those on whom Thou hast bestowed Thy grace, those whose (portion) is not wrath, and who go not astray.
( سورة الفاتحة , Al-Fatiha, Chapter #1, Verse #7)(11) They glory in the grace and the bounty from Allah, and in the fact that Allah suffereth not the reward of the Faithful to be lost (in the least).
( سورة آل عمران , Aal-e-Imran, Chapter #3, Verse #171)(4) “On that day
, if the penalty is averted from any, it is due to Allah.s mercy; And that would be (salvation), the obvious fulfilment of all desire.
( سورة الأنعام , Al-Anaam, Chapter #6, Verse #16)(8) But Allah will deliver the righteous to their place of salvation: no evil shall touch them, nor shall they grieve.
( سورة الزمر , Az-Zumar, Chapter #39, Verse #61)So as you can see there is Only One God who saves by his Mercy and Grace. but those who do not repent are simply harming themselves you do believe in Hell so therefore you know God will not excuse the guilty and those are those who do not repent and does not believe.
For if ye turn again unto the LORD, your brethren and your children shall find compassion before them that lead them captive, so that they shall come again into this land: for the LORD your God is gracious and merciful, and will not turn away his face from you, if ye return unto him.
2 Chronicles 30:8-10(15) Say: “If ye do love Allah, Follow me: Allah will love you and forgive you your sins: For Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most merciful.”
( سورة آل عمران , Aal-e-Imran, Chapter #3, Verse #31)(26) If any one does evil or wrongs his own soul but afterwards seeks Allah.s forgiveness, he will find Allah Oft-forgiving, Most merciful.
( سورة النساء , An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #110)(31) But if the thief repents after his crime, and amends his conduct, Allah turneth to him in forgiveness; for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most merciful.
( سورة المائدة , Al-Maeda, Chapter #5, Verse #39)(32) Why turn they not to Allah, and seek His forgiveness? For Allah is Oft- forgiving, Most merciful.
( سورة المائدة , Al-Maeda, Chapter #5, Verse #74)(34) When those come to thee who believe in Our signs, Say: “Peace be on you: Your Lord hath inscribed for Himself (the rule of) mercy: verily, if any of you did evil in ignorance, and thereafter repented, and amend (his conduct), lo! He is Oft- forgiving, Most merciful.
( سورة الأنعام , Al-Anaam, Chapter #6, Verse #54)(38) But those who do wrong but repent thereafter and (truly) believe,- verily thy Lord is thereafter Oft-Forgiving, Most merciful.
( سورة الأعراف , Al-Araf, Chapter #7, Verse #153)22 He is Allah, beside Whom La ilaha illa Huwa (none has the right to be worshipped but He) the All-Knower of the unseen and the seen. He is the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful.
23 He is Allah beside Whom La ilaha illa Huwa (none has the right to be worshipped but He), the King, the Holy, the One Free from all defects, the Giver of security, the Watcher over His creatures, the All-Mighty, the Compeller, the Supreme. Glory be to Allah! (High is He) above all that they associate as partners with Him.
24 He is Allah, the Creator, the Inventor of all things, the Bestower of forms. To Him belong the Best Names. All that is in the heavens and the earth glorify Him. And He is the All-Mighty, the All-Wise.( سورة الحشر , Al-Hashr, Chapter #59, Verse #22 – #24 )
God Bless You!
Hi Bo,
You said:Quote Personal= (1) And indeed We have created man, and We know what his ownself whispers to him. And We are nearer to him than his jugular vein (by Our Knowledge).
( سورة ق , Qaf, Chapter #50, Verse #16)Can you tell me who the “we” are in the above quote?
Thanks,
Kathi
The “Powers of God” just like Elohim. In Fact The creative Spirit that proceeds from God but that is not God is exactly how Jesus was created and eventually was made manifest as flesh.In other words the Same creative Spirit that God used to create everything else, that Spirit became Flesh but it is important to understand that it had beome light and all manner of things before Jesus but when it comes to man notice God did not say “Let there be Man” but with Jesus he created him with the word “Be” it was a direct creation of flesh with his Word whereas originally man was formed from the earth and then the Creative Spirit of God was breathed into him and he became a living soul but with Jesus he simply said “Be” and Jesus was.
Adam was made from the virgin earth and Jesus was created in a virgin of earth.
Bo,
You said:Quote
The “Powers of God” just like Elohim. In Fact The creative Spirit that proceeds from God but that is not God is exactly how Jesus was created and eventually was made manifest as flesh.In other words the Same creative Spirit that God used to create everything else, that Spirit became Flesh but it is important to understand that it had beome light and all manner of things before Jesus but when it comes to man notice God did not say “Let there be Man” but with Jesus he created him with the word “Be” it was a direct creation of flesh with his Word whereas originally man was formed from the earth and then the Creative Spirit of God was breathed into him and he became a living soul but with Jesus he simply said “Be” and Jesus was.
Adam was made from the virgin earth and Jesus was created in a virgin of earth.
So, are you saying that the creative spirit that proceeds from God became many things and then became Jesus? So, is this creative spirit evolving from one type of thing to another? When this creative spirit changes from one thing to another then would you say that each of those things were created? I'm just trying to understand where you are coming from, Bo.
Thanks,
KathiQuote (Lightenup @ Oct. 28 2009,14:59) Bo,
You said:Quote
The “Powers of God” just like Elohim. In Fact The creative Spirit that proceeds from God but that is not God is exactly how Jesus was created and eventually was made manifest as flesh.In other words the Same creative Spirit that God used to create everything else, that Spirit became Flesh but it is important to understand that it had beome light and all manner of things before Jesus but when it comes to man notice God did not say “Let there be Man” but with Jesus he created him with the word “Be” it was a direct creation of flesh with his Word whereas originally man was formed from the earth and then the Creative Spirit of God was breathed into him and he became a living soul but with Jesus he simply said “Be” and Jesus was.
Adam was made from the virgin earth and Jesus was created in a virgin of earth.
So, are you saying that the creative spirit that proceeds from God became many things and then became Jesus? So, is this creative spirit evolving from one type of thing to another? When this creative spirit changes from one thing to another then would you say that each of those things were created? I'm just trying to understand where you are coming from, Bo.
Thanks,
Kathi
The Word might here be construed as God's creative intellect, his creative power out of which all things come into existence. Jesus' defining characteristic is his creative power, manifest in his own unique creation and in his miracles.This creative power, the power of the creative word, is the same creative power through which God brought all things into existence. However this in no way implies or leads one to the conclusion of Christ's divinity. Jesus use of the power of God's creative word does not make him God incarnate. Having power conferred on him does not make him identical to the One who does the conferring.
Nor does the fact that Jesus was God's “Word” projected into Mary make him God – no more than Adam (a.s.) who was created through God's creative word without the intermediary of a human parent. If Adam who was thus created was not considered identical to God, why should Jesus be so considered.
Thus Jesus is created according to the mould of Adam – but he is as Adam was before the fall from Paradise, before Adam was put into this world, where God's presence is veiled and must be sought through signs. Thus Jesus, from the moment of his miraculous conception to the time he is taken up to God, is one who was “Insaan al-Kamil”. i.e Perfected
He has seen with the perfection of his inner eye the secrets of this Universe. When he tells man of Paradise he has seen it, when he talks of God he knows Him. His every word is spoken from knowledge. He sees and hears and moves through God. The Spirit of Allah is his guide. Furthermore, he is an apostle of God, that is, one charged by God to provide guidance for mankind and to bring man towards the path of perfection and salvation – and to be a sign which hints at the heights to which man is capable of rising.
It is a fundamental principle in Islam that one who is not guided cannot guide. Thus Jesus is a fully realized man and an apostle of God. Jesus thus becomes, in Islam, a symbol (or sign) of the immense potential that exists within man's fundamental nature. The Prophet's of God are sent to guide man and to show man how to actualize this potential within him.
But even one who actualizes this potential and attains a type of union with God, does not become God. God remains God.
Conferring divinity upon any of God's servants or creatures, even one as exalted as Jesus, is characterized as a betrayal of this Trust which God bestowed upon man.
Thanks Bo for your opinion. I do disagree that the Son was created though. All created things have a different nature from their creator. A man has the nature of man, a tree has the nature of a tree, etc. The Son however has a divine nature. We know that someone that is begotten receives the nature of who beget him.
Does the Qua'ran teach that Mary was a virgin and she conceived without the agency of a man but instead by the power of the Holy Spirit? Maybe you have already mentioned this. Please tell me again if that is the case.
Thanks,
KathiQuote (Lightenup @ Oct. 29 2009,15:47) Thanks Bo for your opinion. I do disagree that the Son was created though. All created things have a different nature from their creator. A man has the nature of man, a tree has the nature of a tree, etc. The Son however has a divine nature. We know that someone that is begotten receives the nature of who beget him. Does the Qua'ran teach that Mary was a virgin and she conceived without the agency of a man but instead by the power of the Holy Spirit? Maybe you have already mentioned this. Please tell me again if that is the case.
Thanks,
Kathi
Sura #1916 Relate in the Book (the story of) Mary, when she withdrew from her family to a place in the East.
17 She placed a screen (to screen herself) from them; then We sent her our angel, and he appeared before her as a man in all respects.
18 She said: “I seek refuge from thee to ((Allah)) Most Gracious: (come not near) if thou dost fear Allah.”
19 He said: “Nay, I am only a messenger from thy Lord, (to announce) to thee the gift of a holy son.
20 She said: “How shall I have a son, seeing that no man has touched me, and I am not unchaste?”
21 He said: “So (it will be): Thy Lord saith, 'that is easy for Me: and (We wish) to appoint him as a Sign unto men and a Mercy from Us':It is a matter (so) decreed.”Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 30 2009,17:32) Bo, who's the father of that son given to Mary?
There is no actual Father hence the miracle. Jesus being created is greater than being a son, anyone can procreate and have a son but nine but God can create a NEW creation.You can call God the Father of Jesus it is not a problem at all if you understand the context. God is the Father of all creation and regarding Humans He created Adam and called him also His son and therefore that would make every living human who is the Son of Adam a son of God and with Jesus, God simply made another being like Adam from scratch using Mary for the form.
Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.
Luke 3:37-38Now I'm glad you wrote what you wrote because sometimes we are our own best teachers especially since God is guiding you so tell me Who's the Father of Adam in-fact who is the Mother of Adam?
If you think the birth of Jesus is a miracle how much more is it a miracle to create Adam? I could get a virgin pregnant easily but no matter what I do to clay and dirt I can not make a living being so to understand the greatness of the creation of Jesus you would have to understand the greatness of the creation of Adam.
If God is simply the Father of Jesus then the Miracle of Adam is far greater, Adam even had within him his Wife he was the only man that gave birth to a woman.
Bo,
You say that Christ had no actual Father and that proves that the God of the Qua'ran is different than the God of the Bible because the Bible says that Jesus' Father is God Himself. God so loved the world that He gave His Only Begotten Son. It doesn't say that He gave His created son. There lies a big difference.If you want to think about a miracle think about this, the Son of God who had existed already since before creation as a living being and then morphing into a human baby's body because He and His Father cared for us. I think that is pretty impressive but you are right, creation of Adam is amazing also.
Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 30 2009,18:16) Bo,
You say that Christ had no actual Father and that proves that the God of the Qua'ran is different than the God of the Bible because the Bible says that Jesus' Father is God Himself. God so loved the world that He gave His Only Begotten Son. It doesn't say that He gave His created son. There lies a big difference.If you want to think about a miracle think about this, the Son of God who had existed already since before creation as a living being and then morphing into a human baby's body because He and His Father cared for us. I think that is pretty impressive but you are right, creation of Adam is amazing also.
I must ask you if Jesus was a being before coming to earth did he go himself into Mary or did God place him in Mary?at what time wasn't God your Father?
Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 29 2009,15:47) Thanks Bo for your opinion. I do disagree that the Son was created though. All created things have a different nature from their creator. A man has the nature of man, a tree has the nature of a tree, etc. The Son however has a divine nature. We know that someone that is begotten receives the nature of who beget him. Does the Qua'ran teach that Mary was a virgin and she conceived without the agency of a man but instead by the power of the Holy Spirit? Maybe you have already mentioned this. Please tell me again if that is the case.
Thanks,
Kathi
We are created in God's image…Jesus was begotten in God's image. This allows us to be God's adopted children…and Jesus his biological son.Quote (RokkaMan @ Oct. 31 2009,03:35) Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 29 2009,15:47) Thanks Bo for your opinion. I do disagree that the Son was created though. All created things have a different nature from their creator. A man has the nature of man, a tree has the nature of a tree, etc. The Son however has a divine nature. We know that someone that is begotten receives the nature of who beget him. Does the Qua'ran teach that Mary was a virgin and she conceived without the agency of a man but instead by the power of the Holy Spirit? Maybe you have already mentioned this. Please tell me again if that is the case.
Thanks,
Kathi
We are created in God's image…Jesus was begotten in God's image. This allows us to be God's adopted children…and Jesus his biological son.
Adam was not called God's adopted son so why do you say that?The problem is taking metaphors as fact. Even at Jesus's birth the angel said Jesus “Shall be called” the son of God. The angel didn't say this child is the son of God because “son of God” is a designation of closeness to God it is not literal why would God need to beget a Son when He can create at will.
When Adam was created he was without sin at all and the bible clearly tells you that Jesus is the second Adam so if he is the second Adam according to scripture how can he be the first in all things?
And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
1 Corinthians 15:44-46If he is called the LAST Adam how is it you believe he is the first in all things? It's because you follow the scriptures without understanding literature and styles of writing.
Now look:
Colossians 1:15 (King James Version)
15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
This verse is saying that Jesus is a creature which is a created being.
Hebrews 1:5 (King James Version)
5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
Now if Jesus was his actual son why would God say “He will be to him a Father”? He says this day I have begotten and it is already after him being born of Mary.
God doesn't say You have always been begotten and I have always been your Father and it's because the writing is in metaphor.
Now where did Jesus say to his disciples that God needs to adopt anyone Jesus tells them to pray “Our Father” he never tells them that they are not really his children but once again Paul uses allegory and metaphor
Romans 9:3-5 (King James Version)
3For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
4Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
Now God not being a natural parent to anyone adopts even Christ himself saying “On this day” and “I will be a Father to him”
This is absolute proof that God as Father is simply a metaphor because God does not procreate He does not beget in the human context nor is he begotten and since cannot be begotten neither could a God be begotten from Him for once something is begot it is not like God Almighty.
If God were to destroy Christ who would prevent him:
(1) In blasphemy indeed are those that say that Allah is christ the son of Mary. Say: “Who then hath the least power against Allah, if His will were to destroy christ the son of Mary, his mother, and all every – one that is on the earth? For to Allah belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is between. He createth what He pleaseth. For Allah hath power over all things.”
( سورة المائدة , Al-Maeda, Chapter #5, Verse #17)Quote (bodhitharta @ Oct. 31 2009,05:00) Quote (RokkaMan @ Oct. 31 2009,03:35) Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 29 2009,15:47) Thanks Bo for your opinion. I do disagree that the Son was created though. All created things have a different nature from their creator. A man has the nature of man, a tree has the nature of a tree, etc. The Son however has a divine nature. We know that someone that is begotten receives the nature of who beget him. Does the Qua'ran teach that Mary was a virgin and she conceived without the agency of a man but instead by the power of the Holy Spirit? Maybe you have already mentioned this. Please tell me again if that is the case.
Thanks,
Kathi
We are created in God's image…Jesus was begotten in God's image. This allows us to be God's adopted children…and Jesus his biological son.
Adam was not called God's adopted son so why do you say that?The problem is taking metaphors as fact. Even at Jesus's birth the angel said Jesus “Shall be called” the son of God. The angel didn't say this child is the son of God because “son of God” is a designation of closeness to God it is not literal why would God need to beget a Son when He can create at will.
When Adam was created he was without sin at all and the bible clearly tells you that Jesus is the second Adam so if he is the second Adam according to scripture how can he be the first in all things?
And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
1 Corinthians 15:44-46If he is called the LAST Adam how is it you believe he is the first in all things? It's because you follow the scriptures without understanding literature and styles of writing.
Now look:
Colossians 1:15 (King James Version)
15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
This verse is saying that Jesus is a creature which is a created being.
Hebrews 1:5 (King James Version)
5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
Now if Jesus was his actual son why would God say “He will be to him a Father”? He says this day I have begotten and it is already after him being born of Mary.
God doesn't say You have always been begotten and I have always been your Father and it's because the writing is in metaphor.
Now where did Jesus say to his disciples that God needs to adopt anyone Jesus tells them to pray “Our Father” he never tells them that they are not really his children but once again Paul uses allegory and metaphor
Romans 9:3-5 (King James Version)
3For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
4Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
Now God not being a natural parent to anyone adopts even Christ himself saying “On this day” and “I will be a Father to him”
This is absolute proof that God as Father is simply a metaphor because God does not procreate He does not beget in the human context nor is he begotten and since cannot be begotten neither could a God be begotten from Him for once something is begot it is not like God Almighty.
If God were to destroy Christ who would prevent him:
(1) In blasphemy indeed are those that say that Allah is christ the son of Mary. Say: “Who then hath the least power against Allah, if His will were to destroy christ the son of Mary, his mother, and all every – one that is on the earth? For to Allah belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is between. He createth what He pleaseth. For Allah hath power over all things.”
( سورة المائدة , Al-Maeda, Chapter #5, Verse #17)
If I never believed Jesus is YHWH then what does this post mean to me? Nothing, doesn't change my views…because it doesn't pertain to them.Second when he said…The last adam will be a quickening spirit…it is not talking about Jesus and Adam as in who came first and last in this world…and at the same time (paradox) it is.
It speaks who came first physically on earth…First Adam, Last Jesus. That too is a metaphor seeing as how if it were taking literal, you could confuse Jesus as being Adam…
But metaphorically its stating what I stated earlier…Jesus is equal to adam PHYSICALLY….because they both have the same power over mankind….that is why Adam and Jesus are both referred to as adam….first and last.
But it is not referencing their actual place in existence.
Jhn 1:1 tells us their place in existence…In the beginning was the word…the word was with god and the word was god. The word was made flesh.
This shows us Jesus existed before creation…or was the first born of creation. He was MADE flesh after Adam was.
So when you quote this don't use it as a stance on who existed first…you can for who existed in flesh on earth first, but not who existed in creation first, because we know that to be Jesus.
Third…when you quoted: 15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
That falls in line with my belief…Jesus is God's reflected image in creation. What does firstborn of every creature mean? He is the firstborn of everything/anything that is NOT YHWH.
How he was created is by method of coming forth from YHWH.
God created man from the soil of the earth that was already created….But we know earth was created from the soil of Jesus. And Jesus was created from the soil of YHWH….
So we call Jesus The Begotten Son of YHWH because he was the only thing that was created by the Soil YHWH…
Amen, Praise Jesus.YHWH is infinite he alwasy existed, Jesus came forth from him…once that happened I guess time was established…so to say this day you become my son doesn't mean anything.
I mean, YOU ARE NOT ALWAYS A FATHER?
When your son is born, that is the day he becomes your son, and you his father. So for you to think Jesus can't be his son because he has to ALWAYS of been his son is rediculous.
Jesus came forth in creation…creation was established with time…so YHWH did nto become a Father nor did Jesus Become a son…until creation began.
I would like to think that was the day YHWH said you will be my son and I your father…also YHWH doesn't have to live by creations standards…if he wants to assimilate any piece of creation to his family…he can do so.
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