The Trinity Doctrine

[KangarooJack]

Georg said:

Quote

thinker Raising Jesus to the “right hand” of the Father, is a promotion to the highest position in God's kingdom; in no way is it a position of equality. Daniel was raised to the highest position in the kingdom of Babylon by Nebuchadnezzar, that did not make him an equal to the king. Joseph was given highest position by Pharaoh, that did not make him an equal to Pharaoh. God has no equal. Exd 8:10 And he said, To morrow. And he said, Be it according to thy word: that thou mayest know that there is none like unto the LORD our God.   Isa 40:25 To whom then will ye liken me, or shall I be equal? saith the Holy One.   1Cr 8:4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.   There was one God in the OT, and there is one God in the NT. The idea of a triad god was given authority by Tertullian, one of the earliest Christian writers in the early third Century, however, the believe in a triad god is as old as the Egyptians.

Hi Georg,
You're mistaken. When Jesus was raised to the Father's right hand He received ALL authority. He also inherited everything the Father has. He said, “ALL that the Father has IS MINE” (John 16). This means He is EQUAL with the Father. And in Rev. 5:12-14 Jesus is honored and worshiped EQUALLY with the Father.

thinker

[bodhitharta]

Quote (thethinker @ June 16 2009,05:38)

bodhitharta said: Quote Does it not bother you that you deleted half a verse and simply left out: Revelation 5 14 And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever Why did you leave out “him that liveth for ever and ever”? bd, The Greek text I have does not have that phrase “him that lives forever and ever.” If you insist that it be included then it is the Lamb who is being worshiped. For verse 13 says it is the Lamb who lives forever and ever. Thanks bro. You helped me out. Appreciative, thinker

13 And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying:

“ Blessing and honor and glory and power
Be to Him who sits on the throne,
And to the Lamb, forever and ever!”[g]

14 Then the four living creatures said, “Amen!” And the twenty-four[h] elders fell down and worshiped Him who lives forever and ever.[i]

both 13 and 14 have forever and ever but what you don't understand is 13 is saying that blessing, honor and power are due to both but in 14 they worshipped Him who sits on the throne.

By the way I do apologize if the greek text has only part of the verse, I wonder why someone added the rest.

God bless you.

[KangarooJack]

To All,
Bodhitharta said that He has dealt trinitarianism a “death blow.” I don't think so. The recent posts of some here reflect that I have hit a nerve. I am being called names now . I was called “dishonest” by one and even a “hypocrite” by another  here who himself denies that Jesus Christ came in the flesh. If a “death blow” was dealt then you all would just ignore me.

thinker  

[bodhitharta]

Quote (thethinker @ June 16 2009,05:48)

bodhitharta said: Quote Man is not made in the image of two persons. To say let us make man in our image is not to say us is God and Jesus because God speaks to the heavenly hosts. bd, Then who are the “US” in Genesis 1:26? The Father said that the Son created the heavens and the earth (Heb. 1:10). Wouldn't it be reasonable then to conclude that the Son is one of the “US” speaking? thinker

No it would not be logical because there are angels in heaven and again it seems here that Paul is pulling verses from the old testament and assigning them how he pleases.

2 Samuel 7:14 (King James Version)

14I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men:

[KangarooJack]

bodhitharta said:

Quote

13 And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying:     “ Blessing and honor and glory and power     Be to Him who sits on the throne,     And to the Lamb, forever and ever!”[g] 14 Then the four living creatures said, “Amen!” And the twenty-four[h] elders fell down and worshiped Him who lives forever and ever.[i] both 13 and 14 have forever and ever  but what you don't understand is 13 is saying that blessing, honor and power are due to both but in 14 they worshipped Him who sits on the throne. By the way I do apologize if the greek text has only part of the verse, I wonder why someone added the rest. God bless you.

bd,
I do accept your apology. You are a fair man. It does NOT say that they worshiped Him who sat on the throne. It says that they worshiped Him “who lives forever and ever.” This is the Lamb in verse 13. First you accuse me for omitting the phrase and then you turn around and change it.

What was that you said about a “death blow?” You are scurrying around now trying to fix your blunder! And you're digging even a deeper hole for yourself in the process.

thinker

[bodhitharta]

Quote (thethinker @ June 16 2009,06:07)

To All, Bodhitharta said that He has dealt trinitarianism a “death blow.” I don't think so. The recent posts of some here reflect that I have hit a nerve. I am being called names now . I was called “dishonest” by one and even a “hypocrite” by another  here who himself denies that Jesus Christ came in the flesh. If a “death blow” was dealt then you all would just ignore me. thinker

There is no reason to ignore you as it takes time to sort out these things and right now you are fighting hard to be right because everyone wants to be right not just you. Everyone will from time to time wil fight spiritual dishonesty within not just you as I told you already you are my friend.

Are we not all doing our very best to shine whatever light we have to shine?

We are engaging and in this engaging we study from all different angles and we uncover things we would not have found by ourselves and this helps us to explain our positions more effectively and if need be those positions are altered based upon study.

If the trinity doctrine is correct I want to see it
If Islam is not correct I want to see it
If Jesus is God Almighty I want to see it
If we are all gods I want to see it
If demons don't exist and it's all in our heads I want to see it
If the Bible is the only book that should be read I want to see it

If the bible has been corrupted I want to see it

But never again should anyone here just be blind and be led in a ditch. Knowledge is of God

[bodhitharta]

Quote (thethinker @ June 16 2009,06:21)

bodhitharta said: Quote 13 And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying:     “ Blessing and honor and glory and power     Be to Him who sits on the throne,     And to the Lamb, forever and ever!”[g] 14 Then the four living creatures said, “Amen!” And the twenty-four[h] elders fell down and worshiped Him who lives forever and ever.[i] both 13 and 14 have forever and ever  but what you don't understand is 13 is saying that blessing, honor and power are due to both but in 14 they worshipped Him who sits on the throne. By the way I do apologize if the greek text has only part of the verse, I wonder why someone added the rest. God bless you. bd, I do accept your apology. You are a fair man. It does NOT say that they worshiped Him who sat on the throne. It says that they worshiped Him “who lives forever and ever.” This is the Lamb in verse 13. First you accuse me for omitting the phrase and then you turn around and change it. What was that you said about a “death blow?” You are scurrying around now trying to fix your blunder! And you're digging even a deeper hole for yourself in the process. thinker

The verse doesn't call the Lamb “Him”

[bodhitharta]

Quote (thethinker @ June 16 2009,06:21)

bodhitharta said: Quote 13 And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying:     “ Blessing and honor and glory and power     Be to Him who sits on the throne,     And to the Lamb, forever and ever!”[g] 14 Then the four living creatures said, “Amen!” And the twenty-four[h] elders fell down and worshiped Him who lives forever and ever.[i] both 13 and 14 have forever and ever  but what you don't understand is 13 is saying that blessing, honor and power are due to both but in 14 they worshipped Him who sits on the throne. By the way I do apologize if the greek text has only part of the verse, I wonder why someone added the rest. God bless you. bd, I do accept your apology. You are a fair man. It does NOT say that they worshiped Him who sat on the throne. It says that they worshiped Him “who lives forever and ever.” This is the Lamb in verse 13. First you accuse me for omitting the phrase and then you turn around and change it. What was that you said about a “death blow?” You are scurrying around now trying to fix your blunder! And you're digging even a deeper hole for yourself in the process. thinker

Oh I almost forgot but you do realize the scripture says God and the Lamb, right?

So is the Lamb “God”? Yes or No?

[NickHassan]

Hi BD,
Islam is not correct.
It is not found in the mouth of any proven servant of God.

[bodhitharta]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 16 2009,07:16)

Hi BD, Islam is not correct. It is not found in the mouth of any proven servant of God.

What does that mean exactly? Islam means peace just like shalom in hebrew.

Are you saying that God did not deliver on His promise to Ishmael?

[Cindy]

thinker first of all I am not naughty or unreasonable, Because Gene is the one that so many times have called people names. I am simple getting tired of it. And to me, that is not right if you call yourself a Christian.
How about finding a Scripture that says that there is a trinity doctrine? I used to teach this to our children unfortunately. That was one of the first doctrine that we did prove to ourselves that it was wrong.
By Jesus own words He says that ” my Father is greater then I.” ” I only speak what the Father tells me to say.”
Then there is the Scripture in
Ephesians 4:6 ………one God and Father of all who is above all and in us all.
2 Ch. 2:5 And the temple which I build will be greater, for our God is greater than all Gods.
There is no trinity.
Peace and Love Irene

[942767]

Quote (bodhitharta @ June 16 2009,07:49)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 16 2009,07:16) Hi BD, Islam is not correct. It is not found in the mouth of any proven servant of God. What does that mean exactly? Islam means peace just like shalom in hebrew. Are you saying that God did not deliver on His promise to Ishmael?

Hi BD:

No man can come to the Father except through Jesus, God's Only Begotten Son and His Christ.

Quote

Rom 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, [even] in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Rom 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. Rom 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

The only way that one can be submitted to God is by confessing Jesus as one's Lord.

Can you do this as a Muslim? If you can't then, one cannot be saved through Isalm.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[KangarooJack]

Quote (Cindy @ June 16 2009,08:55)

thinker  first of all I am not naughty or unreasonable, Because Gene is the one that so many times have called people names.  I am simple getting tired of it.  And to me, that is not right if you  call yourself a Christian.   How about finding a Scripture that says that there is a trinity doctrine?  I used to teach this to our children unfortunately.  That was one of the first doctrine that we did prove to ourselves that it was wrong.   By Jesus own words He says that ” my Father is greater then I.”  ” I only speak what the Father tells me to say.”   Then there is the Scripture in Ephesians 4:6 ………one God and  Father of all who is  above all and in us all. 2 Ch. 2:5 And the temple which I build will be greater, for our God is greater than all Gods. There is no trinity. Peace and Love Irene

Irene,

A couple of years ago a man who had been imprisoned for 20 years for a brutal rape was set free because of new DNA  evidence. He was fully exonerated of the crime. This happened in the State I live in. Now suppose he was hired on a job and a month later the boss finds out about his conviction, imprisonment and final exoneration. Then he fires the man. Suppose some of the man's fellow employees were to ask the boss why he was fired and he answers and says “The man is a convicted rapist.”

Would that be the truth? Not really because the boss did not tell the WHOLE story. The WHOLE truth is that the man WAS a convicted rapist but was fully exonerated on the basis of DNA evidence. Therefore, it is not true to say that he IS a convicted rapist.

Your insistent reference to Jesus being less than the Father is not true because it is not the WHOLE story. Jesus WAS less than the Father. He has been exalted since then. This is the whole story. Anything less than the whole story is a falsehood. In a court of law we must swear to tell the WHOLE truth. And if we omit important facts we put ourslves at risk of perjuring ourselves.

You cannot convince me that Jesus is less than the Father now. Jesus said that He has ALL authority now. He said that the Father has committed ALL judgment to Him so that men should honor the Son EVEN AS they honor the Father.

I AM TELLING YOU THE WHOLE STORY. Don't be as the boss in my illustration that left out an important fact.

thinker

[KangarooJack]

bodhitharta said:

Quote

No it would not be logical because there are angels in heaven and again it seems here that Paul is pulling verses from the old testament and assigning them how he pleases. 2 Samuel 7:14 (King James Version) 14I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men:

bd,
The passage in 2 Samuel 7:14 is a reference to David's son Solomon. Where do you get the idea that Paul assigned that word to Christ?  

thinker

[NickHassan]

Hi TT,
So Jesus was less than the Father then exalted by the Father.
And you think this supports a trinity god theory?

[NickHassan]

Hi BD,
You say
“No it would not be logical because there are angels in heaven and again it seems here that Paul is pulling verses from the old testament and assigning them how he pleases.”

Christ was in Paul.
Paul was inspired by the Spirit of Christ.
Would you try to divide Paul from his master and his God?

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (thethinker @ June 15 2009,20:10)

Quote (Cindy @ June 16 2009,08:55) thinker  first of all I am not naughty or unreasonable, Because Gene is the one that so many times have called people names.  I am simple getting tired of it.  And to me, that is not right if you  call yourself a Christian.   How about finding a Scripture that says that there is a trinity doctrine?  I used to teach this to our children unfortunately.  That was one of the first doctrine that we did prove to ourselves that it was wrong.   By Jesus own words He says that ” my Father is greater then I.”  ” I only speak what the Father tells me to say.”   Then there is the Scripture in Ephesians 4:6 ………one God and  Father of all who is  above all and in us all. 2 Ch. 2:5 And the temple which I build will be greater, for our God is greater than all Gods. There is no trinity. Peace and Love Irene Irene, A couple of years ago a man who had been imprisoned for 20 years for a brutal rape was set free because of new DNA  evidence. He was fully exonerated of the crime. This happened in the State I live in. Now suppose he was hired on a job and a month later the boss finds out about his conviction, imprisonment and final exoneration. Then he fires the man. Suppose some of the man's fellow employees were to ask the boss why he was fired and he answers and says “The man is a convicted rapist.” Would that be the truth? Not really because the boss did not tell the WHOLE story. The WHOLE truth is that the man WAS a convicted rapist but was fully exonerated on the basis of DNA evidence. Therefore, it is not true to say that he IS a convicted rapist. Your insistent reference to Jesus being less than the Father is not true because it is not the WHOLE story. Jesus WAS less than the Father. He has been exalted since then. This is the whole story. Anything less than the whole story is a falsehood. In a court of law we must swear to tell the WHOLE truth. And if we omit important facts we put ourslves at risk of perjuring ourselves. You cannot convince me that Jesus is less than the Father now. Jesus said that He has ALL authority now. He said that the Father has committed ALL judgment to Him so that men should honor the Son EVEN AS they honor the Father. I AM TELLING YOU THE WHOLE STORY. Don't be as the boss in my illustration that left out an important fact. thinker

Hi Jack

I have addressed this also with her many times.

I have asked her if she is less than her husband and if so, in what way is she less than her husband?

She thinks that this is proof that Jesus is not “The True God”.

But that is like saying that because the President of the USA is greater than her husband George then that means that George is less of a human than the president.

WJ

[bodhitharta]

Quote (thethinker @ June 16 2009,12:18)

bodhitharta said: Quote No it would not be logical because there are angels in heaven and again it seems here that Paul is pulling verses from the old testament and assigning them how he pleases. 2 Samuel 7:14 (King James Version) 14I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men: bd, The passage in 2 Samuel 7:14 is a reference to David's son Solomon. Where do you get the idea that Paul assigned that word to Christ?   thinker

Because he said God said it about Jesus and he did not

[bodhitharta]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 16 2009,12:28)

Hi BD, You say “No it would not be logical because there are angels in heaven and again it seems here that Paul is pulling verses from the old testament and assigning them how he pleases.” Christ was in Paul. Paul was inspired by the Spirit of Christ. Would you try to divide Paul from his master and his God?

You said that after Christ no prophet is acceptable but then you accept Paul as a prophet. Hmmmm.

[NickHassan]

Hi BD,
You ask
“Are you saying that God did not deliver on His promise to Ishmael?”

Salvation though the Son of God is available to all.
He is the fulfillment of all the promises.
It is finished.

[Author]

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