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Quote (thethinker @ June 03 2009,05:28) Lightenup said: Quote Thinker,
The main thing in the Sonship of Christ is that throughout His existence, He has been the Son of GOD in every step whether it be as one who GOD created through or as the one who GOD revealed Himself to man through or as the one who calls us brethren because He was the first of many of the sons of the resurrection. His resurrection proved to man that He was the Son of GOD when He walked among them. His death was the reason He came to men so as to sanctify them unto redemption. His resurrection gave the sons of Abraham the fulfillment of GOD's promise to them that they would be able to be redeemed to sonship one day as sons of the resurrection.Kathi,
Hebrews 1 says that Christ was for a little while made lower [in rank] than the angels. So Christ's sonship before His exaltation was clearly a lesser position than what the angels enjoyed. Then it says that he was exalted and “begotten” as Son. It is as the “begotten Son” that Jesus has a name that is superior to that of the angels. If Jesus had always been “begotten” then He was never at any time lower than the angels.So Christ's exaltation was not merely about Jesus' sonship being demonstrated as you say. It was also about His acquiring a position that is ABOVE the angels. Jesus EARNED His rank as “begotten Son”.Therefore, the term “begotten” does NOT mean that God reproduced Himself.
thinker
Amen!Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 03 2009,08:38) Hi Kathi Quote (Lightenup @ June 02 2009,13:56) Thinker,
The Son of GOD was never a lesser Son of GOD at any point.
No more than he was a “lesser” God at any point!Blessings WJ
Hey let play a game called “Ignore the Answer”.We know that theos can be used to identify and to qualify. i.e., it can be used to identify WHO God is and be used to talk of the nature or quality of God, WHAT. Man can be used this way too. i.e., 'adam' means man, and 'Adam' identifies the first man. e.g., Eve is man (mankind) but she is not 'Adam' THE man.
We also know that Jesus was in God's form or had divine nature and he emptied himself and took on human nature, and died and returned to the glory that he had with the Father. Simple enough so far right and it is written.
So now, let's forget all this and argue about Jesus being either the one true God or a lesser God. Now we can play this game forever, so long as we ignore that theos can refer to nature/quality and identity. Often the difference is a simple definite article before the word theos and taking the surrounding context too. But if we ignore that, then we can argue to Kingdom come about Jesus either being the Most High God or a lesser God of which he is neither.
t8 I really do not have to argue about what Jesus is. In
Ephesians 4:6 the Father is above all, amd in us all. So we should know that the Father is greater then the Son. God is a tittle. IMO it is a Family name. We belong to the Family of God. No Argument at all.
Peace and Love IreneQuote (thethinker @ June 03 2009,05:28) Lightenup said: Quote Thinker,
The main thing in the Sonship of Christ is that throughout His existence, He has been the Son of GOD in every step whether it be as one who GOD created through or as the one who GOD revealed Himself to man through or as the one who calls us brethren because He was the first of many of the sons of the resurrection. His resurrection proved to man that He was the Son of GOD when He walked among them. His death was the reason He came to men so as to sanctify them unto redemption. His resurrection gave the sons of Abraham the fulfillment of GOD's promise to them that they would be able to be redeemed to sonship one day as sons of the resurrection.Kathi,
Hebrews 1 says that Christ was for a little while made lower [in rank] than the angels. So Christ's sonship before His exaltation was clearly a lesser position than what the angels enjoyed. Then it says that he was exalted and “begotten” as Son. It is as the “begotten Son” that Jesus has a name that is superior to that of the angels. If Jesus had always been “begotten” then He was never at any time lower than the angels.So Christ's exaltation was not merely about Jesus' sonship being demonstrated as you say. It was also about His acquiring a position that is ABOVE the angels. Jesus EARNED His rank as “begotten Son”.Therefore, the term “begotten” does NOT mean that God reproduced Himself.
thinker
Hi TT,
To follow Jesus are you hoping to EARN the name of Son?
Your works of righteousness surely are as filthy rags?
Earning salvation means you could boast.
No man can boast of anything.I would like to say i am new on here but Ive got my stuff down. First was Jesus created i believe he was.
NAS
Col 1:15-19,15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him.
17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.
18 He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything.
19 For it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him,
also in John 5:26 and 27 it says 26 “For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself;
27 and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man.And in John 6 Jesus says
John 6:57 “As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats Me, he also will live because of Me.
Next
I believe Jesus is God but only because God dwells in him when God does not he is not God. What fullness? look back at
Col 1:19 and Col 2:9
19 For it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him,
9 For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form,
Christ also has to give back what he received from God
1Cor. 15:20-28 this is where Jesus GIVES back what he has received from the Most High, God.
20 ¶ But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.
21 For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.
23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming,
24 then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.
25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.
26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death.
27 For HE HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET. But when He says, “All things are put in subjection,” it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him.
28 When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.Quote (Cindy @ June 04 2009,05:02) fam Welcome Good Post. I agree with you on the preexisting of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. You will find that there are those who will agree with you, and those that disagree. You are also right that after the Millennium Jesus will give the Kingdom back to the Father, so God can be all in all. Do you believe in a trinity doctrine?
Notice how I sign, you can call me IrenePeace and Love Irene
No i do not believe in the Trinity Doctrine.Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 04 2009,06:04) Hi not 3,
God, his real Father, was with him, teaching and disciplining him.[Acts 10, Heb 12]
We follow him into sonship by rebirth of the Spirit.
So true. God was his Father from birth, not from the Jordan only.Thanks for clarifying,
MandyQuote (Not3in1 @ June 03 2009,05:53) Hi Thinker, I can see how you are getting your theory. But I wonder, if Jesus had to earn his title as son, what was the whole virgin birth thing? Why was Jesus considered “Lord” at his birth? Surely, with a title such as this, “sonship” would be automatic?
Love,
Mandy
Mandy,
Jesus was announced as Savior from His birth also. Yet He was required to learn obedience through suffering so He might become the “author of eternal salvation” (Heb. 5:7-8). He was NOT the Savior “automatically.”Paul said,
Quote Through the obedience of One the many were made righteous My point that Christ had to earn His title as “begotten Son” still stands. He had to earn the right to be called the “only begotten Son” just as He had to earn the right to the name “Savior.” None of it was “automatic” for Him.
Paul did NOT say,
Quote Through the birth of one the many became righteous thinker
Mandy said:
Quote God was his Father from birth, not from the Jordan only. Mandy,
Hebrews 1 says that God “will be” a Father from the point of Christ's exaltation. It is clear. It says also that before His exaltation Jesus was lower [in rank] than the angels. If God was Christ's Father from birth as you say, then when was Christ ever lower than the angels?thinker
Hi TT,
In what way did God being the Father of His human son Jesus make Jesus greater than the angels or is this another assumption on your part.He was a man.
Adam was a son of God too.Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 04 2009,11:50) Hi TT,
In what way did God being the Father of His human son Jesus make Jesus greater than the angels or is this another assumption on your part.He was a man.
Adam was a son of God too.
Nick,
Read the text man! It says that AFTER Jesus purged our sins He obtained a name that is “more excellent” than the angels,Quote For to which of the angels did He ever say: “You are My Son, TODAY I have begotten You”
I have given you the facts. It is your right to accept or reject them.
thinker
Hi TT,
But you add your assumptions to scripture to proclaim this name which you have decided is true.
'Your assumptions are not useful facts are they?Nick! What are you taking about? After Jesus resurrection He did become greater then the Angels, did He not? I thought that was Thinker said.
John 17:5 here it says that He took on the glory which He had with the Father before the world was. Was He not greater then the Angels then? I always thought that He was and is now. Am I wrong?
Peace and Love IreneHi Irene.
Jesus was not God who became man and then God again.
God does not change.But He did have a son.
Quote (Cindy @ June 05 2009,10:30) Nick! What are you taking about? After Jesus resurrection He did become greater then the Angels, did He not? I thought that was Thinker said.
John 17:5 here it says that He took on the glory which He had with the Father before the world was. Was He not greater then the Angels then? I always thought that He was and is now. Am I wrong?
Peace and Love Irene
Irene,
Thank you. Jesus was “for a little while” made lower than the angels [in rank]. God exalted Him above the angels AFTER He had purged our sins. It's pretty clear.thank you again,
thinker
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 05 2009,10:45) Hi TT,
So he was not the God that exalted him?
What of your trinity god?
You are trying to skirt around it Nick. Can the owner of a vineyard install his son as an EQUAL partner? If so then all the laborers had better honor the son EQUALLY or they are out of a job.This kind of talk by you shows that the exaltation of Jesus throws you anti-trinitarians into a spin.
thinker
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