The Trinity Doctrine

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Not3in1 @ Feb. 24 2009,04:42)

Quote (david @ Feb. 12 2009,14:50) Quote In the New Testament when “God” is referred to, does indicate the Father or the Son? Out of the 1300 or so times “god” appears in the Greek Scriptures, a few of these times are Jesus.  The vast majority are his Father.  In fact, about 5 of those times, it is referring to the Father as the God “of” Jesus. What do our Trinitarian brethren make of the scriptures that say the Father is the God of Jesus?

Hi MandyI understand your frustration about Christians claiming their truth and their God is the God. But as you know it does seem that many here are serving a different God.However it is true that someone has to have the truth, because there is only “One Truth” and only God should and will be the judge of means heart to know who is his and who is not his own.Misconceptions are not necessarily proof of relationship with or lack of relationship with God.IMOAnyway on to your question…

Quote (Not3in1 @ Feb. 24 2009,04:42)

What do our Trinitarian brethren make of the scriptures that say the Father is the God of Jesus?

Here is something to consider…

1. God also calls Jesus “God” and “Lord”. I do not think the Father is implying there is more than “One God” or “One Lord”, do you? Remember God is not a name but a title that refers to the “One True God” or “false gods”, since God and Paul and others say there is “Only One True God”. So now we have to decide why would the Father call Jesus “God” if he is not one with him in every way, because Jesus is not a “false God” is he? John 1:1, John 20:28, 2 Peter 1:1, and 1 Jn 5:20 This same Jesus came in the flesh and was born a son, therefore as a man he referred to the Father as his God, but more so as his Father.

2. The scriptures do not give us the name of the Father.The JWs claim that Jehovah is his name, but we know that  for fear of pronouncing the Holy name of God the Hebrews left out letters of the name YHWH and its exact pronunciation was lost. This was already in effect when the “Septuagint”,  the Hebrew to Greek translation of the Torah some 300 years BC was translated. About 70 Hebrew scholars brought the Hebrew word for YHWH (the tetragammation) over to Greek as “kyrios”. Amazingly the word “kyrios” is almost invariably used in the Greek manuscripts (thousands of them) for Jesus, (Yeshua) which means: “YHWH is Salvation”.

3. If you do a search you will be amazed at how many times the name “Jesus” (Gr Iēsous) or “Christ” (Gr Christos) is mentioned in the NT scriptures as apposed to “Father” (Gr patēr). Does this belittle the Father?No. In my mind it is entirely possible that the Father allowed the exact pronunciation of his name to be lost because he wanted one name to be known, that is the name “Jesus” the name by which all men are saved and by him only can any man know the Father. No man could know or come to the Father unless it was by or through Jesus. Jesus alone could reveal the Father. In fact Jesus claimed not only men could come to or know the Father but that he was the only one that had ever seen him.  No wonder they wanted to stone him for he was placing himself between them and the Father and therefore making himself equal to the Father. Jesus said they were to honour him as the Father.If it wasn’t this way and men knew the name of the “Father” then men would be trying to come to the Father without Jesus and would be invoking his Holy name apart from Jesus who is the only way. Men are still trying to come to God apart from Jesus only they do not have the name. And if they do not have “Jesus” they do not have the Father.Why didn’t Jesus speak the Fathers name? Surely he knew it.Here are some facts about the titles Father, Lord, Christ, and the name Jesus.

• Father (Gr patēr)Found in the NT scriptures “268” times and almost always referring to the Father God. A few meaning earthly fathers.
• Lord (Gr kyrios) Found in the NT scriptures “748” times and almost always referring to Jesus. A few meaning the Father God.
• God (Gr Theos) Found in the NT scriptures “1348” and almost always referring to the Father. Some referring to Jesus.
• Jesus (Gr Iēsous) Found in the NT scriptures “972” times and always referring to Jesus.
• Christ (Gr Christos) Found in the NT scriptures “569” times and always referring to JesusHere are the totalsFatherFather (Gr patēr)  =  268 timesGod (theos)     =     1343 times268 + 1343 = 1611 times the Father is mentioned by titles.JesusJesus (Gr Iēsous)   = 972 timesChrist (Christos)      =         569 timesLord (kyrios)        =         748 times972 times Jesus is mentioned by name.569 + 748 = 1317 times Jesus is mentioned by titlesTotal times the Father is mentioned in the NT scriptures is 1611.Total times Jesus is mentioned in the NT scriptures is 2289I realize these numbers are not exact but only to give us a little insight on how Jesus and the Apostles perceived things.This again does not belittle the Father but in fact honors the Father who said “Hear ye him”.In the Hebrew Monotheistic world to elevate a person to such honor and position between man and God would be “Idolatry”.But we know that they were not Idolaters don’t we? If time permits I may post some more on this.Blessings WJ

 

 

[Not3in1]

Quote (Cindy @ Feb. 24 2009,10:43)

Mandy I have a question for you or several questions. We are to worship in Spirit and in Truth. So we search for the truth. Line upon line , precept upon precept. Can I prove that there is a trinity? It is not to be found in the Bible. Can I however prove that it is wrong? yes. One Scripture. Ephesians 4:6 one God and Father of all, who is above all….. I feel that it is the main Scripture that shows that the trinity is wrong. no3in1. Only one God and Father of all. There are other Scriptures,but for my hands I will only write one. preexisting Col. 1:15-17 Rev. 3:14 John 1:1 John 17:5 Covenants– Luke 22:20 Just a few truths which some of us fall over. Now if you will get angry because I say truths IMO I can't help that you feel that way. It does make me sad, because I do love you. I do wish that we would be united in all, but we are all human and have fallen short of the glory of God. That does includes me. Peace and Love Irene

Hi Irene,

You know I love you and Georg, and so I say this with respect, but you have proved nothing.

All can be debated, a gazillion different ways (depending on your brand/preference of religion).

Scripture can be twisted to mean anything to anyone.  
One book.
Many different faiths.

I use Keith (and hopefull he won't mind) as an example.  He believes in the Trinity.  He believes that he can support his belief with scripture.  He HAS supported his belief with scripture.  Other's have used the very same scriptures to point to a different view.  WHO IS CORRECT?  Who decides?

I think it is absolutely ridiculous for brother's and sister's in Christ Jesus to argue about who is “in” and who is “out”. Let's face it, if the bible doesn't tell us in clear language, who the hell do we think we are to make those judgement calls?

[NickHassan]

Hi not3,
Scripture.
So is this trinity written?

[KangarooJack]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 24 2009,12:01)

Hi tt, So we should believe the implication that C sees in the reaction of the Jews? Is it written?

Nick,
The apostle John concurred with the reaction of the Jews.

Quote

Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He had not only broken the sabbath, but also said that God was His own father making Himself equal with God. (John 5:18)

It is the apostle John who said that Jesus made Himself “equal” with God. Therefore, John himself concurred about Jesus' claim. Get yourself a good pair of reading glasses.

thinker

[Not3in1]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 24 2009,12:06)

Hi not3, Scripture. So is this trinity written?

Scripture – what?  Scripture gives you the right to say who is in and who is out?  Tell me how?  Because apparently not everyone goes by the same guidlines.  These guidlines (read: scripture) must not be very clear.  Ya, clear as mud.

Is the Trinity written?  Who are you asking?  Me?  Because my answer will be different than Keith's.  Which one of us is the true brother or sister in the Lord?  One of us worships a false God, while the other one gets to pass “GO” and enter into the Kingdom.  Hmmm.  Who decides?

One book.
Two different/opposing ideas.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 24 2009,12:12)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 24 2009,12:01) Hi tt, So we should believe the implication that C sees in the reaction of the Jews? Is it written? Nick, The apostle John concurred with the reaction of the Jews. Quote Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He had not only broken the sabbath, but also said that God was His own father making Himself equal with God. (John 5:18) It is the apostle John who said that Jesus made Himself “equal” with God. Therefore, John himself concurred about Jesus' claim. Get yourself a good pair of reading glasses. thinker

Hi TT

Amen! In fact it is also John that used the same Gr word “Theos” in John 1:1 John 1:18, 20:28 and 1 John 5:20 without any hint that what Jesus was claiming was untrue. John also remembered his words in John 14 where Jesus claimed that Philip had seen God and was in fact talking to him.

“If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. Jesus saith unto him, “Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?” John 14:7-9

BTW Welcome to the sight. I have enjoyed reading your post.

WJ

[NickHassan]

Hi WJ,
Do you think in Jn14 Jesus was claiming to BE his own father God?
God was in him reconciling the world to Himself[2Cor5]

[Not3in1]

Keith,
Thanks for your post! I'll be back to read more tonight. Right now I'm a little descouraged by most of what I've been reading here today. Take care and thanks for your time and effort.

Love,
Mandy

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Corinthian @ Feb. 23 2009,15:40)

I seem to be having trouble using the quote and bold/underline etc functions. So, I think it was Martian who said on Feb 6: “24Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb,?       “I, the LORD, am the maker of all things,?       Stretching out the heavens by Myself?       And spreading out the earth all alone, ( interesting point by YHWH. He says He created everything alone.  Leaves that pre-existent Christ out does it not?)” But would that not be Christ doing the creating, since several NT scriptures, such as John one, say that Christ is the creator? That nothing was made which was not made by the Word, which is Christ?

Hi Corinthian

Welcome to this sight. It will be challenging here, most here are not “Trinitarian”.

Yes only God created all things “By himself” with “None other” and “alone”.

Yet we know that Jesus is the creator, HMM so who could God be?

The Father, Son and Holy Spirit = One GOD

Blesings

WJ

[KangarooJack]

Not3 said:

Quote

Right now I'm a little descouraged by most of what I've been reading here today.

Why are you discouraged?

thinker

[NickHassan]

Hi WJ,
He wasn't his own father, which would not surprise most people.
He was going back to his father and our father and his God and our God

Jn20
17Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

[NickHassan]

Hi WJ,
I want the same God as Jesus.
Do you not?

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 24 2009,12:25)

Hi WJ, Do you think in Jn14 Jesus was claiming to BE his own father God? God was in him reconciling the world to Himself[2Cor5]

Hi NH

No I am not a Modalist. Of course the Father was in Jesus, but Jesus was also in the Father, does that exclude the Father from being God?

But what part of Jesus words do you not understand…

“Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not “KNOWN ME”, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?” John 14:7-9

Philip wanted Jesus to show him who God is and what was Jesus response?

You can see it the way you want NH, but as far as I am concerned I see it in light of the other scriptures John wrote like John 1:1 and 1:18 and 20:28. He started this Gospel telling you who Jesus was, “The Word was God” by whom all things were created and without whom nothing was made that was made.

WJ

[david]

Quote (SEEKING @ Feb. 23 2009,23:29)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 23 2009,02:16) Hi david, You say “Following his resurrection, Jesus did not always appear in the same body of flesh “ I believe this is JW dogma but why do they teach it as it is not written? Mar 16:12  After these things he appeared in another form to two of them, as they were walking into the country.

despite the fact that I quoted that in bold 8 times, Nick still didn't see it. Odd.

[david]

Speaking of partial blindness Nick,…..
apparently it is written Nick. it seems to be presisely what is written.

[david]

Quote

David, I couldn't disagree more. If Jesus had not appeared in the exact same body mutiliated and unchanged, then the resurrection was a hoax. His appearance in the same body unchanged is the proof of His resurrection.

which scripture says he'd be resurrected as a man? What do you think of this scirputre?
Mar 16:12 After these things he appeared in another form to two of them, as they were walking into the country.

Would appearing in “another form” mean he was, in your words “unchanged”?

[kerwin]

David and others,

David wrote:

Quote

Would appearing in “another form” mean he was, in your words “unchanged”?

You need more scriptures to back up your point than Mark 16:12 as it was not transcribed on all early manuscripts and may have been added later or may have been dropped either accidentally or on purpose.

Still there is plenty of parallel accounts that tell us the disciples were kept from recognizing Jesus even those who knew him well.   Why God chose to do that I do not know.

I am currently studying Jesus’ ascension to heaven but the scripture account seems to be bear of details.

Luke 24:51(NIV) reads:

Quote

While he was blessing them, he left them and was taken up into heaven.

And

Mark 16:19(NIV) reads:

Quote

After the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, he was taken up into heaven and he sat at the right hand of God

So I have two scriptures of which one is of a questionable source.  If anybody knows other ones then please supply them.  Thank you.

I also found two observations of men who had not died and yet ascended to heaven.

2 Kings 2:11-12(NIV) reads:

Quote

As they were walking along and talking together, suddenly a chariot of fire and horses of fire appeared and separated the two of them, and Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind. Elisha saw this and cried out, “My father! My father! The chariots and horsemen of Israel!” And Elisha saw him no more. Then he took hold of his own clothes and tore them apart.

And

Genesis 5:24(NIV) reads:

Quote

Enoch walked with God; then he was no more, because God took him away.

This is an observation of an angel that ascends to heaven:

Judges 13:20(NIV) reads:

Quote

As the flame blazed up from the altar toward heaven, the angel of the LORD ascended in the flame. Seeing this, Manoah and his wife fell with their faces to the ground.

This is an account of a dream about angels ascending to heaven and descending to earth.  Dreams can be symbolical so I am not sure what we can learn from this observation.

Genesis 28:12(NIV) reads:

Quote

He had a dream in which he saw a stairway resting on the earth, with its top reaching to heaven, and the angels of God were ascending and descending on it.

Last I present a prophecy about angels ascending and descending from an open heaven unto the Son of Man.

John 1:51(NIV) reads:

Quote

He then added, “I tell you the truth, you shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending on the Son of Man.”

[NickHassan]

Hi KW,
No doubt heaven is the home of angels and they, being not of the flesh of earth, are equipped.
Flesh and blood of course cannot inherit the kingdom.[1Cor15]

[kerwin]

Nick Hassan wrote:

Quote

No doubt heaven is the home of angels and they, being not of the flesh of earth, are equipped.

I agree that the flesh and bone of angels is not that of man but they are not spectral like ghosts either.

[NickHassan]

Hi KW,
Do you think all angels can mate with humans or just the Sons of God[gen6]

[Author]

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