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Hi KW,
Manna is angelic food.
Psalm 78:25
Man did eat the bread of angels;He sent them food in abundance.Nich Hassan wrote:
Quote You really believe angels are all flesh and bone beings?
That is what that account I quoted in Genesis states. It would be incorrect to assume their flesh and blood is like ours since as I said they can change their shape. One angel appeared as a in the flame of a bush while another ascended in the flame of an altar. So I will give you this and that is that an angel may well be able to change from a flesh and blood form to one composed of just spirit. The same can be true of Jesus after his resurrection as he did enter a locked room and also ascended to heaven much like the angel ascended on sacrificial flames.
Nick Hassan wrote:
Quote Is entering a locked room more impressive that walking on water?
Depends on how he entered the room. One can walk on water if you do not break the surface tension. If Jesus phased through the walls it was quite impressive but if he commanded the door unlock and walked in not as impressive as miracles go. Still I cannot do any of those things and all are possible through the power of God.
Phase seems to be a science fiction term which means to walk through the empty space in matter.
Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 21 2009,08:08) TheThinker wrote: Quote Jesus was changed when He went up to heaven. He appeared to Paul as a “great light” that blinded Him.
You mentioned a scripture I had not considered but I do not see where it backs up what you say since it states that the light flashed from heaven and was even seen by Paul’s companions though they did not understand the voice Paul heard.
Acts 22-6-11(NIV) reads:
Quote “About noon as I came near Damascus, suddenly a bright light from heaven flashed around me. I fell to the ground and heard a voice say to me, 'Saul! Saul! Why do you persecute me?' ” 'Who are you, Lord?' I asked. ” 'I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom you are persecuting,' he replied. My companions saw the light, but they did not understand the voice of him who was speaking to me. “'What shall I do, Lord?' I asked. “'Get up,' the Lord said, 'and go into Damascus. There you will be told all that you have been assigned to do.' My companions led me by the hand into Damascus, because the brilliance of the light had blinded me.
I did locate when Paul briefly mentioned the event in one of his letters and that seems to suggest he actually saw Jesus unlike the passage in Acts but still it does not support your conclusion that the light from heaven was Jesus.
1 Corinthians 15:3-8(NIV) reads:
Quote For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve. After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.
Greetings Kerwin,
The interesting thing about Paul's experience is that he included himself among the eye witnesses of Jesus' resurrection though he did not see a physical body.thinker
Nick Hassan reads:
Quote Where in Genesis does it say angels are flesh and blood beings?
The question did not come up so one has to go by observations. The evidence was that they can touch human beings, can eat and drink, and they even may sleep. That all came from the account with Lot. I am quite sure that the flesh and blood of angels is not the flesh and blood of human beings or even animals as it is not perishable.
Technically I can not say if angels have blood or bones since only their flesh was touched but I think that is quibbling over unimportant points.
I was pointing out that Jesus resurrection body was like the body of the angels.
What do you think of these two observations?
Genesis 3:24(NIV) reads:
Quote After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.
And
Numbers 22:23(NIV) reads:
Quote When the donkey saw the angel of the LORD standing in the road with a drawn sword in his hand, she turned off the road into a field. Balaam beat her to get her back on the road.
Nick Hassan wrote:
Quote What angels can look like is no serious clue to their nature.
I assume you mean “inborn or inherent qualities” in which case I have to disagree since we do determine those by observation. In the cases I mentioned which involved the cherubim guarding the Tree of Life and the angel blocking the donkey of Balaam the angels had a physical presence. Jesus also had a physical presence which he used to prove he had flesh and bone. I found it interesting though that the account of the angel that blocked Balaam’s path states the angel was invisible to Balaam himself and it reminds me of the account of Jesus on the road after his resurrection and how he was not recognized by his companions.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 22 2009,23:43) Hi KW,
So being invisible is the same as being unrecognised?
Why was Jesus unrecognized?Luke 24:16(NIV) reads:
Quote but they were kept from recognizing him.
He does disappear in the following scripture.
Luke 24:30-31(NIV) reads:
Quote When he was at the table with them, he took bread, gave thanks, broke it and began to give it to them. Then their eyes were opened and they recognized him, and he disappeared from their sight.
Why do you think his entrance startled the disciples.
Luke 24:36(NIV) reads:
Quote While they were still talking about this, Jesus himself stood among them and said to them, “Peace be with you.”They were startled and frightened, thinking they saw a ghost.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 23 2009,04:43) Hi KW,
Reliance on observations and opinions will not get us far.
You rely on observation and opinions at least what you call opinions.Princeton's WordNet Search 3.0 defines opinion as a personal belief or judgment that is not based on proof or certainty. The idea I get from you is that that is not you definition of “opinion”.
So the question is whether one's beliefs are based on reliable and solid proof or not.
I on the other hand strive to reach a belief that is based on certainty since that is what faith is about. I use deductive reasoning and scientific methodology to reach that conclusion. Scripture is one of my sources but I also use history and observations from nature so as to better understand the context of scripture.
Still not of that is necessary since God exist and can reveal His truth to anyone He chooses to.
Nick Hassan wrote:
Quote Truth is written.
Be patient with me as I have two responses to this statement of yours.
My first response is yes it is but it also comes in other ways just as it is written:
Proverbs 1:20-21(NIV) reads:
Quote Wisdom calls aloud in the street,
she raises her voice in the public squares;
at the head of the noisy streets she cries out,
in the gateways of the city she makes her speech:My second response is to voice a concern and that is that one must beware less the written word become a snare that lures you away from the spirit. I assure you that God wants you to use the reasoning ability He gave to you to come to a complete understanding of what He is telling you and so not be led astray by strange teachings.
Nick Hassan wrote:
Quote It is also expounded by nature's beauty and harmony.
That sounds good!
Hi KW,
The word always harmonises with the Spirit.Sadly some sing their own songs despite the dissonance with scripture
Hello Brothers and Sisters:
Along with part one, an unbelievably vast discussion! So I can only figure someone has already made this point, but any way here is something to consider from a newbie:John 1:John 1
The Deity of Jesus Christ
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.2He was in the beginning with God.
3All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.
I seem to be having trouble using the quote and bold/underline etc functions.
So, I think it was Martian who said on Feb 6:
“24Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb,?
“I, the LORD, am the maker of all things,?
Stretching out the heavens by Myself?
And spreading out the earth all alone,( interesting point by YHWH. He says He created everything alone. Leaves that pre-existent Christ out does it not?)”
But would that not be Christ doing the creating, since several NT scriptures, such as John one, say that Christ is the creator? That nothing was made which was not made by the Word, which is Christ?
Quote Jesus body didn't have blood as that was poured out for the sins of men. –t8
Quote Interesting thought that.
Yet he ate with them on at least two occasions.–Nick.
What if….Jesus actually did sacrifice his body and was raised a spirit, who then went to heaven, as a spirit.
Could a spirit not use different bodies and appear in locked rooms? Does not this solve everything? (Oh, and if we think back to the Hebrew scriptures, spirits that have taken on human form have eaten food before.)MARK 16:12 KING JAMES
“After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country.”
Mark 16:12 DOUAY VERSION
“And after that he appeared in another shape to two of them walking, as they were going into the country.”(Also appears this way in Latin Vulgate; German Luther Bible; Contemporary English Version; New International Version; New American Standard Version)
The Greek word there translated “shape” is morphé, which the Greek-English Lexicon says means “form, shape, fashion, appearance.”
But even apart from what Mark 16:12 says, a careful study of the resurrection appearances makes it clear that the resurrected Jesus materialized different bodies to suit the occasion. On at least two occasions he materialized bodies that resembled the one in which he had been nailed to the stake. (Luke 24:38-40; John 20:20-27) On other occasions the form or shape that he materialized left the disciples in doubt for a while.Many persons believe that Christ took his fleshly body to heaven. They point to the fact that when Christ was raised from the dead, his fleshly body was no longer in the tomb. (Mark 16:5-7) Also, after his death Jesus appeared to his disciples in a fleshly body to show them that he was alive. Once He even had the apostle Thomas put his hand into the hole in His side so that Thomas would believe that He had actually been resurrected. (John 20:24-27) Does this not prove that Christ was raised alive in the same body in which he was put to death?
JOHN 14:19: “A little longer and the world will behold me no more, but you [Jesus’ faithful apostles] will behold me, because I live and you will live.”
(Jesus had promised his apostles that he would come again and take them to heaven to be with him. They could see him because they would be spirit creatures as he is. But the world would not see him again. Compare 1 Timothy 6:16.)ACTS 10:40, 41
“God raised this One [Jesus Christ] up on the third day and granted him to become manifest, not to all the people, but to witnesses appointed beforehand by God.”
(Why did not others see him too? Because he was a spirit creature and when, as angels had done in the past, he materialized fleshly bodies to make himself visible, he did so only in the presence of his disciples.)2 CORINTHIANS 5:16
“Even if we have known Christ according to the flesh, certainly we now know him so no more.”
ACTS 13:34:
“He [God] resurrected him [Jesus] from the dead destined no more to return to corruption.”
(Human bodies are by nature corruptible. That is why 1 Corinthians 15:42, 44 uses the word “corruption” in parallel construction with “physical body.” Jesus will never again have such a body.)JOHN 6:51: “I am the living bread that came down from heaven; if anyone eats of this bread he will live forever; and, for a fact, the bread that I shall give is my flesh in behalf of the life of the world.”
(IN LINE WITH T8'S THOUGHT, having given it, Jesus does not take it back again. He does not thereby deprive mankind of the benefits of the sacrifice of his perfect human life.)HEBREWS 10:10
“We have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ ONCE FOR ALL TIME.”
(Having given up his flesh for the life of the world, Christ could never take it again and become a man once more. For that basic reason his return could never be in the human body that he sacrificed once for all time.)**Illustration:
If a man pays a debt for a friend but then promptly takes back the payment, obviously the debt continues. Likewise, if, when he was resurrected, Jesus had taken back his human body of flesh and blood, which had been given in sacrifice to pay the ransom price, what effect would that have had on the provision he was making to relieve faithful persons of the debt of sin?
Jesus gave “his soul as a ransom in exchange for many.” (Mt 20:28) He was a “corresponding ransom for all.” (1 Tim 2:6)
If someone kidnaps your daughter and demands a ransom price, and you pay it to get your daughter back….do you then get the money back when it's all done? Does it ever work that way?1 CORINTHIANS 15:45
“It is even so written: “The first man Adam became a living soul.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.”1 TIM 3:16
“‘He was made manifest in flesh, was declared righteous in spirit, ”
1 PETER 3:18 (NASB)
“For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;”[“in the spirit,” NE, AT, JB, Dy RS] (At his resurrection from the dead, Jesus was brought forth with a spirit body. In the Greek text the words “flesh” and “spirit” are put in contrast to each other, and both are in the dative case; so, if a translator uses the rendering “by the spirit” he should also consistently say “by the flesh,” or if he uses “in the flesh” he should also say “in the spirit.”)
Before his ascension to heaven Christ, as a mighty, immortal spirit person, did materialize various fleshly bodies to suit the occasion, for the purpose of giving to his disciples visible, palpable evidence of his resurrection.—Joh 20:13-17, 25-27; 21:1, 4; Lu 24:15, 16.
The Bible is very clear when it says: “Christ died once for all time concerning sins . . . , he being put to death in the flesh, but being made alive in the spirit.” (1 Peter 3:18) Humans with flesh-and-blood bodies cannot live in heaven. Of the resurrection to heavenly life, the Bible says: “It is sown a physical body, it is raised up a spiritual body. . . . flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s kingdom.” (1 Corinthians 15:44-50) Only spirit persons with spiritual bodies can live in heaven.
WHY DID THEY NOT RECOGNIZE HIM ? ? ? ? ?
It is true that Jesus appeared in physical form to his disciples after his resurrection. But on certain occasions, WHY DID THEY NOT AT FIRST RECOGNIZE HIM? (Luke 24:15-32; John 20:14-16)
After Jesus’ resurrection MARY MISTOOK HIM for the gardener. (Joh 20:14, 15)
On one occasion, for the benefit of Thomas, Jesus appeared with the physical evidence of nail prints in his hands and a spear wound in his side. But HOW WAS IT POSSIBLE ON THAT OCCASION FOR HIM TO SUDDENLY APPEAR IN THEIR MIDST EVEN THOUGH THE DOORS WERE LOCKED? (John 20:24-29) Jesus evidently materialized bodies on these occasions, as angels had done in the past when appearing to humans.
[/B]Luke 24:36-39: “While they [the disciples] were speaking of these things he himself stood in their midst and said to them: ‘May you have peace.’ But because they were terrified, and had become frightened, they were imagining they beheld a spirit. So he said to them: ‘Why are you troubled, and why is it doubts come up in your hearts? See
my hands and my feet, that it is I myself; feel me and see, because a spirit does not have flesh and bones just as you behold that I have.’”Humans cannot see spirits, so the disciples evidently thought they were seeing an apparition or a vision that had appeared in this locked room. (Compare Mark 6:49, 50.) Jesus assured them that he was no apparition; they could see his body of flesh and could touch him, feeling the bones; he also ate in their presence. Similarly, in the past, angels had materialized in order to be seen by men; they had eaten, and some had even married and fathered children. (Gen. 6:4; 19:1-3) Following his resurrection, Jesus did not always appear in the same body of flesh (perhaps to reinforce in their minds the fact that he was then a spirit), and so he was not immediately recognized even by his close associates. (John 20:14, 15; 21:4-7) However, by his repeatedly appearing to them in materialized bodies and then saying and doing things that they would identify with the Jesus they knew, he strengthened their faith in the fact that he truly had been resurrected from the dead.
[/I]Several times he manifested himself and WAS RECOGNIZED, NOT BY HIS APPEARANCE, BUT BY HIS WORDS AND ACTIONS. (Lu 24:15, 16, 30, 31, 36-45; Mt 28:16-18)
Once a miracle performed at his direction opened his disciples’ eyes to his identity.
JOHN 21:4-7,12
“However, just as it was getting to be morning, Jesus stood on the beach, but the disciples did not, of course, discern that it was Jesus. Then Jesus said to them: “Young children, YOU do not have anything to eat, do YOU?” They answered “No!” to him. He said to them: “Cast the net on the right side of the boat and YOU will find [some].” Then they cast it, but they were no longer able to draw it in because of the multitude of the fishes. Therefore that disciple whom Jesus used to love said to Peter: “It is the Lord!” Hence Simon Peter, upon hearing that it was the Lord, girded about himself his top garment, for he was naked, and plunged into the sea. . . .Jesus said to them: “Come, take YOUR breakfast.” Not one of the disciples had the courage to inquire of him: “Who are you?” because they knew it was the Lord.”(WHY WOULD THEY HAVE TO ASK: ‘WHO ARE YOU?’ OR NEED THE COURAGE TO ASK THIS IF HE HAD HIS FLESHLY BODY THAT WAS RECOGNIZABLE? THERE WOULD BE NO REASON TO ASK: WHO ARE YOU? [I][B]
The reason they knew it was the Lord, wasn’t because he appeared as he did before his death–they recognized him because he performed the miracle.
DAVID.
Quote His post resurrection body still had the holes in it which indicates that it still had the remnants of death in it. Therefore, it was perishable. Jesus was changed when He went up to heaven. –the thinker.
If a spirit can materialize a body, can it materialize a body with holes in the wrists?
I think the point of Jesus appearing in different forms (Mark 16:12) was to emphasize the fact that he was no longer a human–that he had been raised a spirit.
MARK 16:12 KING JAMES
“After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country.”
Mark 16:12 DOUAY VERSION
“And after that he appeared in another shape to two of them walking, as they were going into the country.”Is it so remarkable if one of these forms has holes in the wrists?
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