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Nick Hassan wrote:
Quote Flesh and blood in heaven? Paul was not convinced and neither am I.
In 2 Corinthians 12:2 Paul was not expressing a lack of being convinced but he was expressing a lack of knowledge about a particular case. I was pointing out that he was unsure whether a man entered heaven with a physical body or not and so was not expressing such confidence in his first letter to the Corinthians. Instead he was making the point that the perishable body will not be inheriting heaven though it may visit.
You on the other hand seem to be cherry picking what Paul states. I was pointing out what he stated in different scriptures and then looking for an interpretation that would render them all true. That is why I gave the long argument that I gave.
Nick Hassan wrote:
Quote So will we all inherit a damaged imperishable body?
Appearances are deceptive. Jesus had lethal wounds in his flesh but nerveless was still alive and was not even bleeding from what I understand. That tells us that his body was not the same body we presently have since those wounds are lethal and do bleed. From that I will conclude that Jesus’ body wounds and all is the form God chose for him much like he might give one type of animal a body that has poor eyesight and no limbs. In the same way He will give us the body He chooses to and His choice is good no matter if some would regard that body as “damaged”.
Quote (SEEKING @ Feb. 20 2009,03:41) [quote=kerwin,Feb. 19 2009,14:19]
Kerwin,If I may ask you, consider your statement and cited scripture once again.
We know a physical body may exist in heaven since Paul stated:
2 Corinthians 12:2(NIV) reads:
Quote I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know—God knows.
Let me disect that in light of your statement, “we know.”
Paul said, Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know God knows.
I conclude, to the contrary – we do not know – God knows.
I agree with your conclusion which is why I used the word “may”. I believe that expressed the uncertainty that existed in Paul's statement.Hi KW,
So because the body of Jesus did not rot it must be the imperishable one?
Rather I believe it had to stay battered and torn to show scripture had been fulfilled.Acts 2
25For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:26Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:
27Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
28Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.
29Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
30Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
31He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
Somehow I think it is not the same now
Rev19
11And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.12His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 19 2009,14:55) Quote (SEEKING @ Feb. 20 2009,03:41) [quote=kerwin,Feb. 19 2009,14:19]
Kerwin,If I may ask you, consider your statement and cited scripture once again.
We know a physical body may exist in heaven since Paul stated:
2 Corinthians 12:2(NIV) reads:
Quote I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know—God knows.
Let me disect that in light of your statement, “we know.”
Paul said, Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know God knows.
I conclude, to the contrary – we do not know – God knows.
I agree with your conclusion which is why I used the word “may”. I believe that expressed the uncertainty that existed in Paul's statement.
I appreciate your clarification. I understand now.
Thank you!Quote (t8 @ Feb. 20 2009,09:18) Jesus body didn't have blood as that was poured out for the sins of men.
Hi t8,
Interesting thought that.Yet he ate with them on at least two occasions.
And the disciples on the way to Emmaeus did not spot anything unusual.
I guess a normal body keeps manufacturing blood from the marrow.
Nick Hassan wrote:
Quote So because the body of Jesus did not rot it must be the imperishable one?
That would follow since an imperishable body does not rot or pass away.
Still I would like to review what I understand your position is.
You believe the imperishable body is not a physical body because Paul taught that “flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven”. I then pointed out that you were too broad in applying what you have heard, since Paul seemed to be speaking of the perishable body and not the imperishable. I then also pointed to a second passage where Paul taught there is a possibility that a person did visit heaven in a physical form. I did that to demonstrate that physical forms may well exist in heaven.
We also spoke of Jesus and how you believe that he rose from the dead in a perishable body while I believe he rose from the dead in an imperishable body. I am not sure what evidence you have to back up your position so I will not mention any. If you have any then feel free to share it. The evidence I presented was manifold.
I pointed that Paul taught that humans are buried with a perishable body and rise up with an imperishable one. He did not express any exceptions but you still believe Jesus was an exception to the rule Paul taught. I actually do know of several exceptions and one of those is Lazarus. Of all those exceptions though not one bears the signs of what killed them and all their bodies perished in the normal way or at least we have no record otherwise.
The next point of dispute involved Jesus wounds and whether or not they indicated that Jesus was raised with an imperishable body. My point is that the body was imperishable because it did not perish despite having lethal wounds and in fact it did not bleed. I am not sure what your explanation for a perishable body not perishing is. The point of why the body did not rot is of a similar vein.
I believe I have covered most of our disagreement though I may have missed some. If you wish to correct me then feel free to do so. This is all a different issue than the topic of this thread and appears to be a distraction from the discussion about whether the tenet of an immaculate conception is at odds with the tenet of Jesus pre-existing his conception and birth. Still it may have something to do with it that I am seeing clearly at this time.
Seeking wrote:
Quote I appreciate your clarification. I understand now.
You are welcome. I also appreciate you pointing out what you believed was a possible error. I must confess I may have thoughtlessly make that error in another post. You gentle rebuke led me to review my actions. I shall strive not to do so again and by the power of God I can succeed in not doing so for all things are possible through God.
Kerwin,
I've been reading quite a few of your responses here, and I appreciate your point of view.You are a nice voice added to these debates.
Love,
MandyQuote (Not3in1 @ Feb. 20 2009,12:41) Kerwin,
I've been reading quite a few of your responses here, and I appreciate your point of view.You are a nice voice added to these debates.
Love,
Mandy
Thank you for the compliment. I also saw some of your posts on Jesus' pre-existence and thought they were well thought out.Kerwin wrote:
Quote We also spoke of Jesus and how you believe that he rose from the dead in a perishable body while I believe he rose from the dead in an imperishable body. Kerwin,
Nick is right on this one. Jesus rose from the dead in His perishable body. His post resurrection body still had the holes in it which indicates that it still had the remnants of death in it. Therefore, it was perishable. Jesus was changed when He went up to heaven. He appeared to Paul as a “great light” that blinded Him. This form is His ever abiding form. I'm not saying that Jesus exists as pure light (but maybe). In the least we must say that His imperishable body emanates light. This was not true of the body of His post resurrection appearances.thinker
TheThinker wrote:
Quote Jesus was changed when He went up to heaven. He appeared to Paul as a “great light” that blinded Him.
You mentioned a scripture I had not considered but I do not see where it backs up what you say since it states that the light flashed from heaven and was even seen by Paul’s companions though they did not understand the voice Paul heard.
Acts 22-6-11(NIV) reads:
Quote “About noon as I came near Damascus, suddenly a bright light from heaven flashed around me. I fell to the ground and heard a voice say to me, 'Saul! Saul! Why do you persecute me?' ” 'Who are you, Lord?' I asked. ” 'I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom you are persecuting,' he replied. My companions saw the light, but they did not understand the voice of him who was speaking to me. “'What shall I do, Lord?' I asked. “'Get up,' the Lord said, 'and go into Damascus. There you will be told all that you have been assigned to do.' My companions led me by the hand into Damascus, because the brilliance of the light had blinded me.
I did locate when Paul briefly mentioned the event in one of his letters and that seems to suggest he actually saw Jesus unlike the passage in Acts but still it does not support your conclusion that the light from heaven was Jesus.
1 Corinthians 15:3-8(NIV) reads:
Quote For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve. After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.
Hi,
Here is an interesting verse.
Job 4:15
Then a spirit passed before my face; the hair of my flesh stood up:Nick Hassan wrote:
Quote So the best we can hope for being like the Lamb is a cut and torn flesh and bones body?
If that is God's will that is what will be done and God’s will is good.
Nick Hassan wrote:
Quote Flesh cannot inherit the kingdom [1Cor15]
It is true that perishable flesh cannot inherit the Kingdom but no one said anything about imperishable flesh and blood like Jesus had after his resurrection.
Nick Hassan wrote:
Quote Flesh is of earth and there is no heavenly flesh.
You are correct that the perishable flesh is from this corrupt earth but there will be a new earth that is not perishable. I also see nowhere in scripture where it states there is no heavenly flesh and in fact Angels appear to have flesh as the following scripture records.
Genesis19:1-4(NIV) reads:
Quote The two angels arrived at Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gateway of the city. When he saw them, he got up to meet them and bowed down with his face to the ground. “My lords,” he said, “please turn aside to your servant's house. You can wash your feet and spend the night and then go on your way early in the morning.” “No,” they answered, “we will spend the night in the square.” But he insisted so strongly that they did go with him and entered his house. He prepared a meal for them, baking bread without yeast, and they ate. Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom—both young and old—surrounded the house.
These Angels like Jesus after he was resurrected ate food and later they touched Lot by pulling him out of harm’s way. Does this mean they have perishable bodies?
The Gnostics believe that the material would is evil and the spiritual world is good so they teach that there is no heavenly flesh. You seem to believe in that tenet of theirs at least in some cases.
Hi KW,
Angels are not flesh beings.Matthew 22:30
“For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven.Mark 12:25
“For when they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven.Luke 20:36
for they cannot even die anymore, because they are like angels, and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.Nick Hassan wrote:
Quote Angels are not flesh beings.
So you believe in the Gnostic teaching that Jesus was not flesh after his resurrection at the angels in the story of Lot did just the same things as Jesus did.
Luke 24:40-43(NIV) reads:
Quote When he had said this, he showed them his hands and feet. And while they still did not believe it because of joy and amazement, he asked them, “Do you have anything here to eat?” They gave him a piece of broiled fish, and he took it and ate it in their presence.
If that scripture convinced you that Jesus had flesh and blood then why don't you believe that the angels who did the same things also had flesh and blood. It is quite clear that scripture does not say what you have been taught it says.
Now I will agree that a ghost does not have flesh and blood but the resurected body will not be that of a ghost.
Hi KW,
Jesus was flesh after his resurrection.
He said so.
Lk24
39Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.Angels often appear as men.
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Hebrews 13:2
Do not neglect to show hospitality to strangers, for by this some have entertained angels without knowing it.But they are spirits.
Heb1
13But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?14Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?
Your accusations do you no favours.
Nick Hassan wrote:
Quote Your accusations do you no favors
My accusation is based on fact but your denial is strong. It is clear that you have decided to say that the angels who both ate and touched did not have flesh and bone while you use the evidence that Jesus ate and was touched to prove he has flesh and bone. Your claims are inconsistent. If you wish to be consistent then you must make the same conclusion based on the same evidence.
Now if scripture chooses to cause angels who have flesh and bone spirits then scripture has a reason for it and the reason can be researched. It may be that we are using the wrong definition for spirit and another one fits that would not cause a contradiction in scripture.
It may be that Jesus like some angels had the ability to shape shift after his resurrection and that could be how he entered the locked room. I assume there are also other ways an angel could enter a locked room including unlocking the door and entering through the doorway.
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