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Hi KW,
You say about your idea of Jesus being ANOINTED IN THE WOMB“John 1 most likely makes the point but it is hard to understand.”
Where??“Luke 1:35 also makes the point if you know what the angel is speaking of when he states “called the Son of God”.
So how does being the SON OF GOD relate to ANOINTING??
“Luke 1:35(NIV) wrote:Quote
The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God. “
This tells how he was born the Son of God not about any anointing.
The Spirit of anointing came on him at the Jordan.Quote I also disagree with the Jehovah Witnesses' Christology as the preexistence of Jesus is at contradiction with the idea he was conceived in Mary's womb since no one is created twice. –kerwin.
Which scripture says he was “created” again in the womb?
Which scripture says “no one is created twice”?Here is an actual scripture: “With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.” (mat 19:16)
Kerwin wrote:
Quote I oppose the Trinity tenet just I oppose any that tenet that believes that Jesus is God because it denies that Jesus was tempted by evil just as we are or accuses God being tempted by evil. Kerwin,
Trinitarians do not deny that Jesus was tempted. I challenge you to produce a statement from a Trinitarian that says so.Kerwin said:
Quote Some Trinitarians illogically attempt to have it both ways despite knowing that God is not a God of contradictions. Kerwin,
I applaud you for saying that only “some” Trinitarians illogically attempt to have it both ways. This indicates to me that you are a fair judge. I am a Trinitarian and I believe that Jesus was tempted and also that God was tempted,Quote So Moses said to them, “Why do you tempt the LORD?” (Exodus 17;3) and,
Quote You shall not tempt the Lord your God as you tempted Him in Massah (Deut. 6:16) I anticipate that you will invoke the statement in James which says that God cannot be tempted. Please read James carefully and ponder it before you reply. For I can show that non-trinitarians want to have it “both ways” too.
your friend,
thinkerNick Hassan wrote:
Quote So how does being the SON OF GOD relate to ANOINTING??
The anointing makes you a son of God and the one that is naturally anointed is the Son of God. I tried to point that out by using Romans 1:2-4 where it makes the argument that Jesus was declared the Son of God through his resurrection from the dead. A better example would be both of the following:
Romans 8:15(NIV) reads:
Quote For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship And by him we cry, “Abba, Father.”
And
Galatians 4:6(NIV) reads:
Quote Because you are sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, “Abba, Father.”
Nick Hassan wrote:
Quote This tells how he was born the Son of God not about any anointing.
That only tells about his virgin conception. It states “he will be called the Son of God”. He became the Son of God because God gave Him the Spirit of Sonship from the point at which he could decide between good and evil and those that believe in him are sons because through him they also obtain the Spirit of Sonship.
Nick Hassan wrote:
Quote The Spirit of anointing came on him at the Jordan.
I can certainly see that argument there but since Hebrews 4:15 makes the point that he was tempted even as we are but without sin I conclude he has the Spirit to live by previously to being baptized in the Jordan. The Spirit coming on Him in the Jordon was God’s testimony of who he is.
Hi KW,
Because of his anointing?
Luke 1:35
The angel answered and said to her, ” The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God.Yes.
Those adopted sons reborn into him share his anointing Spirit.But where did Jesus teach about any trinity?
David writes:
Quote Which scripture says he was “created” again in the womb?
The definition of conceive is to begin, originate, found, and in some cases form.
If Jesus was originated in the womb then he certainly was not originated before.
The Greek word translated “conceived” may be better translated “begat” which means to generate offspring. If he was generated in Mary’s womb he did not exist before.
I used dictionary.com for my source for the definitions I used above.
David writes:
Quote Which scripture says “no one is created twice”?
I suppose you can create an item twice and have two items or you can create it once and then destroy it to create it again. Neither of these matches the account of Jesus’ conception.
David writes:
Quote Here is an actual scripture: “With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.” (mat 19:16)
That should not be used to make God a God of contradictions.
Quote The Greek word translated “conceived” may be better translated “begat” which means to generate offspring. If he was generated in Mary’s womb he did not exist before. Just speaking hypothetically, if it was true that Jesus existed before and if God transfered his life into mary's womb, what Greek word would you use?
“The Greek word translated “conceived” may be better translated “begat” which means to generate offspring. If he was generated in Mary’s womb he did not exist before.”–kerwin.
When I make a pie, you could say I cause that pie to come into existence, but in reality, the pie existed before, but in another form.
I have a question Kerwin. Is it the word “conceive” that would be your main argument for believing Jesus didn't pre-exist. To me, it seems like the people on your side of the fence like to play with that one word, from that scripture. But what of these scriptures?
PHILIPPIANS 2:5-8
“Keep this mental attitude in YOU that was also in Christ Jesus, who, although he was existing in God’s form, gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God. No, but he emptied himself and took a slave’s form and came to be in the likeness of men. More than that, when he found himself in fashion as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient as far as death, yes, death on a torture stake.”
(–We are to have the attitude that Christ who despite “EXISTING IN GOD’S FORM”
–Emptied Himself
–Took on a “slaves form,” “the likeness of men,” “in fashion as a man.”)He made himself nothing and became a servant. How can you do that if the first time you exist is as an unborn child?
We who are born as human, cannot say that we humbled ourselves can we?JOHN 17:5
“So now you, Father, glorify me alongside yourself with the glory that I had alongside you before the world was.”
(Is Jesus here talking about being turned back into “a plan” as some think he was before he became flesh? Comparing this scripture to Phil 2:7, we have to understand that Jesus, who “was existing in God’s form” had glory as such, and the fact that he “emptied himself” and “took on a slaves form” shows great humility. Which is what Phil 2:5-7 is telling us we should do–be humble. If Jesus did not exist as a person, how could he possibly have showed humility in this way?)2 CORINTHIANS 8:9
“For YOU know the undeserved kindness of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though he was rich he became poor for YOUR sakes, that YOU might become rich through his poverty.”
(Nothing in scripture indicates that Jesus was materially rich at any time. So I am lead to believe that this most likely is complementary to Phil 2:5-8, referring to him being rich in glory. Of course, as has been suggested, it could mean that he gave up common things like having a place to rest his head, a house, etc. (Mt 8:20)When in Jesus’ earthly life, and in what sense, was he “rich”?
And when did he become “poor”?MICAH 5:2
““And you, O Beth́le·hem Eph́ra·thah, the one too little to get to be among the thousands of Judah, from you there will come out to me the one who is to become ruler in Israel, whose origin is from early times, from the days of time indefinite.”
(I don’t really know how this could more clearly teach that Jesus [who it is talking about], that his “origin is from early times, from the days of time indefinite.”)HEBREWS 2:9
“but we behold Jesus, who has been made a little lower than angels, crowned with glory and honor for having suffered death, that he by God’s undeserved kindness might taste death for every [man].”HEBREWS 10:5
“Hence when he comes into the world he says: “‘Sacrifice and offering you did not want, but you prepared a body for me.”JOHN 1:14,15
“So the Word became flesh and resided among us, and we had a view of his glory, a glory such as belongs to an only-begotten son from a father; and he was full of undeserved kindness and truth. (John bore witness about him, yes, he actually cried out—this was the one who said [it]—saying: “The one coming behind me has advanced in front of me, because he existed before me.”)””
(He “became flesh” indicating strongly that he wasn’t always.)JOHN 1:30
“This is the one about whom I said, Behind me there comes a man who has advanced in front of me, because he existed before me.”JOHN 3:13
“Moreover, no man has ascended into heaven but he that descended from heaven, the Son of man.”JOHN 6:38
“because I have come down from heaven to do, not my will, but the will of him that sent me.”JOHN 3:17
“For God sent forth his Son into the world, not for him to judge the world, but for the world to be saved through him.”
( if HE sent him it is assumable or logical to deduct that he[Jesus] was 'somewhere else' before he was on Earth)JOHN 6:51
“I am the living bread that came down from heaven; if anyone eats of this bread he will live forever; and, for a fact, the bread that I shall give is my flesh in behalf of the life of the world.””JOHN 6:62
“What, therefore, if YOU should behold the Son of man ascending to where he was before?”JOHN 8:23
“So he went on to say to them: “YOU are from the realms below; I am from the realms above. YOU are from this world; I am not from this world.”JOHN 8:42
“Jesus said to them: “If God were YOUR Father, YOU would love me, for from God I came forth and am here. Neither have I come of my own initiative at all, but that One sent me forth.”JOHN 8:57-58
“Therefore the Jews said to him: “You are not yet fifty years old, and still you have seen Abraham?” Jesus said to them: “Most truly I say to YOU, Before Abraham came into existence, I have been.””
(Whether you translate this “I AM” (to mean God) or “I have been,” they would both point to his pre-existence.JOHN 16:28
“I came out from the Father and have come into the world. Further, I am leaving the world and am going my way to the Father.””JOHN 17:24
“Father, as to what you have given me, I wish that, where I am, they also may be with me, in order to behold my glory that you have given me, because you loved me before the founding of the world.”GALATIANS 4:4
“But when the full limit of the time arrived, God sent forth his Son, who came to be out of a woman and who came to be under law,”REVELATION 3:14
““And to the angel of the congregation in La·o·di·céa write: These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God,”COLLOSIANS 1:15-17, RS:
“He [Jesus] is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation . . . All things were created through him and for him. He is before all things.”HEBREWS 1:2
“has at the end of these days spoken to us by means of a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the systems of things.”GENESIS 1:1,26
“In [the] beginning God created the heavens and the earth. . . .And God went on to say: “Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness,
(Who was he talking to?)JOHN 1:1-2
“In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god. This one was in [the] beginning with God.”
JOHN 1:3
“All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence. What has come into existence”JOHN 1:10
“He was in the world, and the world came into existence through him, but the world did not know him.”JOHN 1:18
“No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is in the bosom [position] with the Father is the one that has explained him.”JOHN 16:27-28
“For the Father himself has affection for YOU, because YOU have had affection for me and have believed that I came out as the Father’s representative. I came out from the Father and have come into the world. Further, I am leaving the world and am going my way to the Father.””
What is a representative? How could he represent his Father if he nev
er knew him….1 JOHN 4:10
“The love is in this respect, not that we have loved God, but that he loved us and sent forth his Son as a propitiatory sacrifice for our sins.”LUKE 3:21-22
“Now when all the people were baptized, Jesus also was baptized and, as he was praying, the heaven was opened up and the holy spirit in bodily shape like a dove came down upon him, and a voice came out of heaven: “You are my Son, the beloved; I have approved you.””PROVERBS 8:22-31
““Jehovah himself produced me as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago. From time indefinite I was installed, from the start, from times earlier than the earth. When there were no watery deeps I was brought forth as with labor pains, when there were no springs heavily charged with water. Before the mountains themselves had been settled down, ahead of the hills, I was brought forth as with labor pains, when as yet he had not made the earth and the open spaces and the first part of the dust masses of the productive land. When he prepared the heavens I was there; when he decreed a circle upon the face of the watery deep, when he made firm the cloud masses above, when he caused the fountains of the watery deep to be strong, when he set for the sea his decree that the waters themselves should not pass beyond his order, when he decreed the foundations of the earth, then I came to be beside him as a master worker, and I came to be the one he was specially fond of day by day, I being glad before him all the time, being glad at the productive land of his earth, and the things I was fond of were with the sons of men.”
The Wisdom that is here described was “produced,” or created, as the beginning of Jehovah’s way. Jehovah God has always existed and has always been wise. (Ps 90:1,2) His wisdom had no beginning; it was neither created nor produced.
It was “brought forth as with labor pains.” Furthermore, this wisdom is said to speak and act, representing a person. (Prov 8:1)
(Some say that the holy spirit is spoken of in that manner and so the holy spirit must be an individual. Well, the same reasoning would apply to this scripture then.)
Depicting the Son of God as wisdom is appropriate, since he was God’s Word or spokesman and was the one who revealed Jehovah’s wise purposes and decrees. Elsewhere, he is described as being “the power of God and the wisdom of God,” and also the “wisdom from God.” (1 cor 1:24,30)
The fact that the Hebrew word for “wisdom” is always in the feminine gender does not conflict with the use of wisdom to represent God’s Son. The Greek word for “love” in the expression “God is love” is also in the feminine gender. (1 John 4:8) Yet, it is used to refer to God.
Love is not literally God. And Jesus is not literally wisdom.
Solomon, the principal writer of Proverbs (Pr 1:1), applied the title qo·héleth (congregator) to himself (Ec 1:1) and this word is also in the feminine gender.The Bible and not human reason clearly bears out numerous times that Jesus, the “only begotten son,” “whose origin is from early times” did have a pre-human existence.
He “emptied himself and took a slave’s form and came to be in the likeness of men.”
God “prepared a body for him,” and so he “became flesh.”
Jesus spoke of “the glory that [he] had alongside [God] before the world was.”
He repeatedly said things like: “I have come down from heaven” and that he “descended from heaven,” and “from God I came forth and am here.” He spoke of “ascending to where he was before.” He said “I am from the realms above” and “not from this world.”
Before Abraham existed “I am” or “I have been,” he said. He is the “beginning of the creation by God” and the “firstborn of all creation.” And all things “were created through him.” And “he is before all things.” It was “through [Jesus that] he [God] made the system of things.” In the beginning, God said: “Let US make man in OUR image.” Jesus was in the beginning and “with God.” “This one [The word, Jesus] was in the beginning with God.” And “All things came into existence through him.”David wrote:
Quote Just speaking hypothetically, if it was true that Jesus existed before and if God transferred his life into Mary’s womb, what Greek word would you use?
“Placed” would be a good word.
You also would not have an immaculate conception though you would still have a virgin birth.
David wrote:
Quote I have a question Kerwin. Is it the word “conceive” that would be your main argument for believing Jesus didn't pre-exist.
The fact he is human is also an argument as humans do not preexist. Jesus also had to be a descendant of David which is impossible if he preexisted since descendant is one that comes after.
I want you to observe the story of Adam’s creation.
Genesis 2:7(NIV) reads:
Quote the LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.
Where did Adam’s spirit come from? Was Adam preexistent? At what point did the man become Adam?
The Thinker wrote
Quote I anticipate that you will invoke the statement in James which says that God cannot be tempted. Please read James carefully and ponder it before you reply. For I can show that non-trinitarians want to have it “both ways” too.
I invite you to study and contemplate how people tempt God and what they tempt him to do. I am also curious how you regard James statement that God cannot be tempted by evil.
Quote (david @ Feb. 17 2009,18:35) “The Greek word translated “conceived” may be better translated “begat” which means to generate offspring. If he was generated in Mary’s womb he did not exist before.”–kerwin. When I make a pie, you could say I cause that pie to come into existence, but in reality, the pie existed before, but in another form.
I have a question Kerwin. Is it the word “conceive” that would be your main argument for believing Jesus didn't pre-exist. To me, it seems like the people on your side of the fence like to play with that one word, from that scripture. But what of these scriptures?
PHILIPPIANS 2:5-8
“Keep this mental attitude in YOU that was also in Christ Jesus, who, although he was existing in God’s form, gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God. No, but he emptied himself and took a slave’s form and came to be in the likeness of men. More than that, when he found himself in fashion as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient as far as death, yes, death on a torture stake.”
(–We are to have the attitude that Christ who despite “EXISTING IN GOD’S FORM”
–Emptied Himself
–Took on a “slaves form,” “the likeness of men,” “in fashion as a man.”)He made himself nothing and became a servant. How can you do that if the first time you exist is as an unborn child?
We who are born as human, cannot say that we humbled ourselves can we?JOHN 17:5
“So now you, Father, glorify me alongside yourself with the glory that I had alongside you before the world was.”
(Is Jesus here talking about being turned back into “a plan” as some think he was before he became flesh? Comparing this scripture to Phil 2:7, we have to understand that Jesus, who “was existing in God’s form” had glory as such, and the fact that he “emptied himself” and “took on a slaves form” shows great humility. Which is what Phil 2:5-7 is telling us we should do–be humble. If Jesus did not exist as a person, how could he possibly have showed humility in this way?)2 CORINTHIANS 8:9
“For YOU know the undeserved kindness of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though he was rich he became poor for YOUR sakes, that YOU might become rich through his poverty.”
(Nothing in scripture indicates that Jesus was materially rich at any time. So I am lead to believe that this most likely is complementary to Phil 2:5-8, referring to him being rich in glory. Of course, as has been suggested, it could mean that he gave up common things like having a place to rest his head, a house, etc. (Mt 8:20)When in Jesus’ earthly life, and in what sense, was he “rich”?
And when did he become “poor”?MICAH 5:2
““And you, O Beth́le·hem Eph́ra·thah, the one too little to get to be among the thousands of Judah, from you there will come out to me the one who is to become ruler in Israel, whose origin is from early times, from the days of time indefinite.”
(I don’t really know how this could more clearly teach that Jesus [who it is talking about], that his “origin is from early times, from the days of time indefinite.”)HEBREWS 2:9
“but we behold Jesus, who has been made a little lower than angels, crowned with glory and honor for having suffered death, that he by God’s undeserved kindness might taste death for every [man].”HEBREWS 10:5
“Hence when he comes into the world he says: “‘Sacrifice and offering you did not want, but you prepared a body for me.”JOHN 1:14,15
“So the Word became flesh and resided among us, and we had a view of his glory, a glory such as belongs to an only-begotten son from a father; and he was full of undeserved kindness and truth. (John bore witness about him, yes, he actually cried out—this was the one who said [it]—saying: “The one coming behind me has advanced in front of me, because he existed before me.”)””
(He “became flesh” indicating strongly that he wasn’t always.)JOHN 1:30
“This is the one about whom I said, Behind me there comes a man who has advanced in front of me, because he existed before me.”JOHN 3:13
“Moreover, no man has ascended into heaven but he that descended from heaven, the Son of man.”JOHN 6:38
“because I have come down from heaven to do, not my will, but the will of him that sent me.”JOHN 3:17
“For God sent forth his Son into the world, not for him to judge the world, but for the world to be saved through him.”
( if HE sent him it is assumable or logical to deduct that he[Jesus] was 'somewhere else' before he was on Earth)JOHN 6:51
“I am the living bread that came down from heaven; if anyone eats of this bread he will live forever; and, for a fact, the bread that I shall give is my flesh in behalf of the life of the world.””JOHN 6:62
“What, therefore, if YOU should behold the Son of man ascending to where he was before?”JOHN 8:23
“So he went on to say to them: “YOU are from the realms below; I am from the realms above. YOU are from this world; I am not from this world.”JOHN 8:42
“Jesus said to them: “If God were YOUR Father, YOU would love me, for from God I came forth and am here. Neither have I come of my own initiative at all, but that One sent me forth.”JOHN 8:57-58
“Therefore the Jews said to him: “You are not yet fifty years old, and still you have seen Abraham?” Jesus said to them: “Most truly I say to YOU, Before Abraham came into existence, I have been.””
(Whether you translate this “I AM” (to mean God) or “I have been,” they would both point to his pre-existence.JOHN 16:28
“I came out from the Father and have come into the world. Further, I am leaving the world and am going my way to the Father.””JOHN 17:24
“Father, as to what you have given me, I wish that, where I am, they also may be with me, in order to behold my glory that you have given me, because you loved me before the founding of the world.”GALATIANS 4:4
“But when the full limit of the time arrived, God sent forth his Son, who came to be out of a woman and who came to be under law,”REVELATION 3:14
““And to the angel of the congregation in La·o·di·céa write: These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God,”COLLOSIANS 1:15-17, RS:
“He [Jesus] is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation . . . All things were created through him and for him. He is before all things.”HEBREWS 1:2
“has at the end of these days spoken to us by means of a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the systems of things.”GENESIS 1:1,26
“In [the] beginning God created the heavens and the earth. . . .And God went on to say: “Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness,
(Who was he talking to?)JOHN 1:1-2
“In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god. This one was in [the] beginning with God.”
JOHN 1:3
“All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence. What has come into existence”JOHN 1:10
“He was in the world, and the world came into existence through him, but the world did not know him.”JOHN 1:18
“No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is in the bosom [position] with the Father is the one that has explained him.”JOHN 16:27-28
“For the Father himself has affection for YOU, because YOU have had affection for me and have believed that I came out as the Fa
ther’s representative. I came out from the Father and have come into the world. Further, I am leaving the world and am going my way to the Father.””
What is a representative? How could he represent his Father if he never knew him….1 JOHN 4:10
“The love is in this respect, not that we have loved God, but that he loved us and sent forth his Son as a propitiatory sacrifice for our sins.”LUKE 3:21-22
“Now when all the people were baptized, Jesus also was baptized and, as he was praying, the heaven was opened up and the holy spirit in bodily shape like a dove came down upon him, and a voice came out of heaven: “You are my Son, the beloved; I have approved you.””PROVERBS 8:22-31
““Jehovah himself produced me as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago. From time indefinite I was installed, from the start, from times earlier than the earth. When there were no watery deeps I was brought forth as with labor pains, when there were no springs heavily charged with water. Before the mountains themselves had been settled down, ahead of the hills, I was brought forth as with labor pains, when as yet he had not made the earth and the open spaces and the first part of the dust masses of the productive land. When he prepared the heavens I was there; when he decreed a circle upon the face of the watery deep, when he made firm the cloud masses above, when he caused the fountains of the watery deep to be strong, when he set for the sea his decree that the waters themselves should not pass beyond his order, when he decreed the foundations of the earth, then I came to be beside him as a master worker, and I came to be the one he was specially fond of day by day, I being glad before him all the time, being glad at the productive land of his earth, and the things I was fond of were with the sons of men.”
The Wisdom that is here described was “produced,” or created, as the beginning of Jehovah’s way. Jehovah God has always existed and has always been wise. (Ps 90:1,2) His wisdom had no beginning; it was neither created nor produced.
It was “brought forth as with labor pains.” Furthermore, this wisdom is said to speak and act, representing a person. (Prov 8:1)
(Some say that the holy spirit is spoken of in that manner and so the holy spirit must be an individual. Well, the same reasoning would apply to this scripture then.)
Depicting the Son of God as wisdom is appropriate, since he was God’s Word or spokesman and was the one who revealed Jehovah’s wise purposes and decrees. Elsewhere, he is described as being “the power of God and the wisdom of God,” and also the “wisdom from God.” (1 cor 1:24,30)
The fact that the Hebrew word for “wisdom” is always in the feminine gender does not conflict with the use of wisdom to represent God’s Son. The Greek word for “love” in the expression “God is love” is also in the feminine gender. (1 John 4:8) Yet, it is used to refer to God.
Love is not literally God. And Jesus is not literally wisdom.
Solomon, the principal writer of Proverbs (Pr 1:1), applied the title qo·héleth (congregator) to himself (Ec 1:1) and this word is also in the feminine gender.The Bible and not human reason clearly bears out numerous times that Jesus, the “only begotten son,” “whose origin is from early times” did have a pre-human existence.
He “emptied himself and took a slave’s form and came to be in the likeness of men.”
God “prepared a body for him,” and so he “became flesh.”
Jesus spoke of “the glory that [he] had alongside [God] before the world was.”
He repeatedly said things like: “I have come down from heaven” and that he “descended from heaven,” and “from God I came forth and am here.” He spoke of “ascending to where he was before.” He said “I am from the realms above” and “not from this world.”
Before Abraham existed “I am” or “I have been,” he said. He is the “beginning of the creation by God” and the “firstborn of all creation.” And all things “were created through him.” And “he is before all things.” It was “through [Jesus that] he [God] made the system of things.” In the beginning, God said: “Let US make man in OUR image.” Jesus was in the beginning and “with God.” “This one [The word, Jesus] was in the beginning with God.” And “All things came into existence through him.”
good post but rather long…..I agree Jesus was there before the world was.
Peace and Love IreneHi KW,
Conception relates to physical things.
Ps 139
13For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.14I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.
15My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.
16Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 18 2009,00:34) Hi KW,
Conception relates to physical things.
Ps 139
13For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.14I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.
15My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.
16Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.
I disagree with you on this one. It is not my body is “fearfully and wonderfully made” but rather is “I am fearfully and wonderfully made”. One’s body is considered a possession and not the actual person. In verse 15 the writer is speaking about something he possesses in it is called “my substance” which could be equivalent to body. Even in that it clearly states “I was made”.Look at this example of Adam’s creation. At what point did Adam become Adam and where did he come from? Didn’t he come from God as all life does? Isn’t the breath of life Adam’s spirit that God put in his body and thus finished the creation of Adam. SO did Adam pre-exist his creation?
Genesis 2:7(NIV) reads:
Quote the LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.
Now we can, like Paul, refer to the physical body as the first man and as the spiritual body as the second man but then you have the situation that the physical body is created before the spiritual body and in fact houses the spiritual body. This order is mentioned is the following scripture.
1 Corinthians 15:44-48(NIV) reads:
Quote … If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven. As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the man from heaven, so also are those who are of heaven.
Hi KW,
The old tent does not house the new body.
Rather the reverse is true
1Cor15
49And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.50Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
Hi KW,
Scripture refers to the body AS man.
Gen3
19In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.But it also refers to it as a disposable corruptible tent.
2 Corinthians 5
1For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.2For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
3If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
4For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
Quote David wrote:
QuoteJust speaking hypothetically, if it was true that Jesus existed before and if God transferred his life into Mary’s womb, what Greek word would you use?
“Placed” would be a good word.
You also would not have an immaculate conception though you would still have a virgin birth.
But, again, speaking hypothetically, if Jesus existed before and had to “become flesh” and become an actual man, would “placing” him there accomplish that?
Quote The fact he is human is also an argument as humans do not preexist.
So you think his birth was a normal birth….No miracles invovled? Humans also do not generaly walk on water, etc. Does this mean that the fact humans do not walk on water mean Jesus was not human? Or rather, does it mean he fits into a category all his own? The Bible said he “became flesh.”
If I'm speaking of my birth or anyone elses birth, would I ever say: This is when I “became flesh.” No. I'd say: “This is when I was born.” The words “became flesh” seem to indicate he existed before he became flesh, do they not?Quote Where did Adam’s spirit come from? Was Adam preexistent? At what point did the man become Adam?
He became a living soul when God breathed the breath of life into him.Speaking of Adam, the argument has been used that if Jesus existed before, then he wasn't a real human, for humans are the offspring of a man and a woman. But looking at Adam, (a word that literally means “man”) it is clear that there are exceptions to what is and what isn't a man.
David wrote:
Quote But, again, speaking hypothetically, if Jesus existed before and had to “become flesh” and become an actual man, would “placing” him there accomplish that?
If his soul/spirit was not that of a man in the first place then placing him in human flesh would not make him a man. A demon in human flesh would still be a demon. An angel in human flesh would still be an angel. So I would say a human is more than just the flesh. An example of this is if Satan’s soul were to occupy human flesh would he then become human.
David wrote:
Quote So you think his birth was a normal birth….No miracles involved?
There were certainly miracles involved as pathogenesis (immaculate conception) does not occur among human except in one case and that is Jesus. The result of such pathogenesis should have been a female and yet Jesus is male. He is still of human being despite being the result of a different method of reproduction. Are identical twins any less human for resulting from cell division instead of cell fusion?
David wrote:
Quote Humans also do not generally walk on water, etc. Does this mean that the fact humans do not walk on water mean Jesus was not human? Or rather, does it mean he fits into a category all his own?
He is certainly not all on his own for Moses divided the Reed (Red) Sea and even Peter walked on water briefly. Jesus said himself that with faith you can move mountains and he did.
David wrote:
Quote The Bible said he “became flesh.” If I'm speaking of my birth or anyone else’s birth, would I ever say: This is when I “became flesh.” No. I'd say: “This is when I was born.” The words “became flesh” seem to indicate he existed before he became flesh, do they not?
John 1 is a cryptic scripture and because it is cryptic it is hard to understand. I question assuming that the Word mean’s Jesus soul/spirit without collaboration elsewhere.
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