The Trinity Doctrine

[martian]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 07 2009,18:11)

Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 07 2009,17:35) BTW, if someone asked me to agree that the trinity was the true doctrine of God or die, I would be in heaven. Hi Kathi BTW I find it interesting that you would die for what you “don't believe” rather than for what you do.   How about this… If someone was to ask you to deny that Jesus was “a god” or die, would you go to heaven? Blessings! WJ

I would like to chime in on this, but I do not know how you define faith. I would have to ask what do you mean by faith

[martian]

I was going to wait till someone else defined faith, but I guess I will put my two cents in now.

Biblical Hebrew E-Magazine
April, 2005 Issue #014

Word of the Month – Faith
Behold, he whose soul is not upright in him shall fail, but the righteous shall live by his faith. (Habakkuk 2:4 – ASV)

What does it mean to have “faith” from an Hebraic perspective? In our western minds faith is a mental exercise in knowing that someone or something exists or will act. For instance, if we say “I have faith in God” we are saying “I know that God exists and do what he says he will do”.

The Hebrew word for faith is hnwma (emunah – Strong's #530) and is an action oriented word meaning “support”. This is important because the Western concept of faith places the action on the one you have faith in, such as “faith in God”. But, the Hebrew word hnwma places the action on the one who “supports God”. It is not knowing that God will act, but rather I will do what I can to support God. This idea of support for the word emunah can be seen in Exodus 17:12.

But Moses' hands grew weary; so they took a stone and put it under him, and he sat upon it, and Aaron and Hur held up his hands, one on one side, and the other on the other side; so his hands were steady (emunah)until the going down of the sun.

It is the support/emunah of Aaron and Hur that held of Moses' arms, not the support/emunah of Moses. When we say “I have faith in God”, we should be thinking “I will do what I can to support God”.

End quote ——–

How do we support God? How did Jesus define faith?
Mat 9
2And they brought to Him a paralytic lying on a bed Seeing their faith, Jesus said to the paralytic, “Take courage, son; your sins are forgiven.”

What did Jesus see? Did He read some mental ascension in their minds? They took the action of brining the man to Him. It was an action that they took that was their faith.

Mat 9
20And a woman who had been suffering from a hemorrhage for twelve years, came up behind Him and touched the fringe of His cloak;
21for she was saying to herself, “If I only touch His garment, I will get well.”
22But Jesus turning and seeing her said, “Daughter, take courage; your faith has made you well.” At once the woman was made well.

Again the woman took action and Jesus calls it faith.

Mat 9
27As Jesus went on from there, two blind men followed Him, crying out, “Have mercy on us, Son of David!”
28When He entered the house, the blind men came up to Him, and Jesus said to them, “Do you believe that I am able to do this?” They said to Him, “Yes, Lord.”
29Then He touched their eyes, saying, “It shall be done to you according to your faith.”

What faith was He referring to? Their faith to follow and cry out to him. Another action.

Paul admonishes us to take actions associated with faith.
1 Cor 16
13Be on the alert, stand firm in the faith, act like men, be strong.
14Let all that you do be done in love.

Many places in the NT it says to have faith in Jesus. The actual Greek words are to have faith “into” Jesus. Into Jesus? Into His body? Take action to do that which makes you a part of Christ body. Every joint supplying and doing what it was designed to do.
Now some might think I am speaking of works. I am not. Dead works are those that are done outside of God’s desires. Works we do to try to curry God’s favor and done with wrong motives. Actions taken that support and are in agreement with God purposes bear good fruit and are accounted toward us as righteousness.

Righteousness is an interesting word in Hebrew. It means to stay on the right path. We are to travel from glory to glory and remain on the path God designed for us. Traveling the path requires an action on our part.

What actions can we take today? I am not talking about haphazard actions or doing everything thing we can think of. First we would need to seek God for wisdom to see what actions will be productive and functional in His plan. Just going about praying for every person we see may not be a productive way to accomplish and support God’s plan. Perhaps it would be wise to seek God’s desire on the matter and then proceed. God knows the hearts, intentions and motives of men. He may need one to stay sick a bit longer to teach them humility, While another is ready to be released from their illness. The key is to walk “with God” and to be aware of His plan, nature, character, and desires for His creation. To always seek to do His will and not seek to do our own.

[Lightenup]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 07 2009,01:57)

Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 07 2009,17:35) I can say that I am 100% convinced that it is entirely possible for the Son of God to have a beginning on day one of creation and that the term “firstborn of all creation”  is quite likely a reference to that light. Hi Kathi Entirely possible?  Quite Likely?   I thought you said God spoke to you and told you that Jesus was the light that God spoke in Genesis and the one who laid the foundation of the earth with his hands according to Heb 1:10? Sorry if I missunderstand you, but “Entirely possible” and “Quite Likely” does not sound like you are 100% convinced! Blessings! WJ

Hi Keith,
This is what happened:
I heard a whisper in my ear say “you are the light of the world” out of nowhere at the very moment my 6 year old son was answering my question to him regarding what happened on day one of creation-“God said, let there be light.”

During the preceding month I began a honest and open search and appeal to God regarding what He meant by the term “firstborn of all creation” in Colossians 1.

At the beginning of that month was the first that I was ever open to the possibility that the trinity doctrine could be in error.

I felt like He gave me the key to unlock the puzzle with what I heard from the whisper. That is what happened, Keith. I then meditated on that and felt like it all fit together. The “light” of day one had to do with the Son and His being born.

Regarding creation, it is the Bible that tells us that the Son laid the foundation of the earth and spread out the heavens in Hebrews.

I said “entirely possible” and “quite likely” in my post because I do not want to lean on my own understanding.

I might not have internet access over the next 2-3 days, my daughter is going to be in a Young American's workshop out of town.

God bless,
LU

[Cindy]

Hi Kathi! Have a good time, drive safe.
Love Irene

[martian]

Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 08 2009,15:53)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 07 2009,01:57) Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 07 2009,17:35) I can say that I am 100% convinced that it is entirely possible for the Son of God to have a beginning on day one of creation and that the term “firstborn of all creation”  is quite likely a reference to that light. Hi Kathi Entirely possible?  Quite Likely?   I thought you said God spoke to you and told you that Jesus was the light that God spoke in Genesis and the one who laid the foundation of the earth with his hands according to Heb 1:10? Sorry if I missunderstand you, but “Entirely possible” and “Quite Likely” does not sound like you are 100% convinced! Blessings! WJ Hi Keith, This is what happened: I heard a whisper in my ear say “you are the light of the world” out of nowhere at the very moment my 6 year old son was answering my question to him regarding what happened on day one of creation-“God said, let there be light.” During the preceding month I began a honest and open search and appeal to God regarding what He meant by the term “firstborn of all creation” in Colossians 1. At the beginning of that month was the first that I was ever open to the possibility that the trinity doctrine could be in error. I felt like He gave me the key to unlock the puzzle with what I heard from the whisper.  That is what happened, Keith.  I then meditated on that and felt like it all fit together.  The “light” of day one had to do with the Son and His being born.   Regarding creation, it is the Bible that tells us that the Son laid the foundation of the earth and spread out the heavens in Hebrews. I said “entirely possible” and “quite likely” in my post because I do not want to lean on my own understanding. I might not have internet access over the next 2-3 days, my daughter is going to be in a Young American's workshop out of town. God bless, LU

cindy –
You said –
Regarding creation, it is the Bible that tells us that the Son laid the foundation of the earth and spread out the heavens in Hebrews.

That is a contradiction of Isa 44
“I, the LORD, am the maker of all things,?
Stretching out the heavens by Myself?
And spreading out the earth all alone,

( interesting point by YHWH. He says He created everything alone. Leaves that pre-existent Christ out does it not?)

[Artizan007]

Questions for you Worshiping Jesus,

I am not Trinitarian, just so you know when you answer these questions.

What do you mean by Father? Do you mean, Person, relationship name, an idea or concept etc etc.
What do you mean by Son? Same as above
What do you mean by HS? Ditto

So are these names related to indicate Persons, relationships, Names given by humanity to represent each of the one persons that make up the one deity, or maybe they are Names to represent interpersonal relationship status?

What do you mean by “person”, “essence” or “being” and “deity”? I don't want a text book answer, I want your understanding.

Is Jesus to God like I am to human?
Is Father to God like I am to human?
Is HS to God like I am to human?

Is Son to Deity like I am to humanity?
Is Father to Deity like I am to humanity?
Is Holy Spirit to Deity like I am to humanity?

Is Jesus Deity? as in – who “identity” or “person” not – what “nature” or is he both?

I have many more, but those are a few for now.

[Lightenup]

Quote (martian @ Feb. 08 2009,10:42)

Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 08 2009,15:53) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 07 2009,01:57) Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 07 2009,17:35) I can say that I am 100% convinced that it is entirely possible for the Son of God to have a beginning on day one of creation and that the term “firstborn of all creation”  is quite likely a reference to that light. Hi Kathi Entirely possible?  Quite Likely?   I thought you said God spoke to you and told you that Jesus was the light that God spoke in Genesis and the one who laid the foundation of the earth with his hands according to Heb 1:10? Sorry if I missunderstand you, but “Entirely possible” and “Quite Likely” does not sound like you are 100% convinced! Blessings! WJ Hi Keith, This is what happened: I heard a whisper in my ear say “you are the light of the world” out of nowhere at the very moment my 6 year old son was answering my question to him regarding what happened on day one of creation-“God said, let there be light.” During the preceding month I began a honest and open search and appeal to God regarding what He meant by the term “firstborn of all creation” in Colossians 1. At the beginning of that month was the first that I was ever open to the possibility that the trinity doctrine could be in error. I felt like He gave me the key to unlock the puzzle with what I heard from the whisper.  That is what happened, Keith.  I then meditated on that and felt like it all fit together.  The “light” of day one had to do with the Son and His being born.   Regarding creation, it is the Bible that tells us that the Son laid the foundation of the earth and spread out the heavens in Hebrews. I said “entirely possible” and “quite likely” in my post because I do not want to lean on my own understanding. I might not have internet access over the next 2-3 days, my daughter is going to be in a Young American's workshop out of town. God bless, LU cindy – You said – Regarding creation, it is the Bible that tells us that the Son laid the foundation of the earth and spread out the heavens in Hebrews. That is a contradiction of Isa 44      “I, the LORD, am the maker of all things,?        Stretching out the heavens by Myself?        And spreading out the earth all alone, ( interesting point by YHWH. He says He created everything alone.  Leaves that pre-existent Christ out does it not?)

I have addressed this here:

https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….y159932

LU

[Mr. Steve]

Greetings to all from God the Father and from his Son, our Lord Jesus Christ. Just thought I would drop by and say hi and pose a few questions.

In the New Testament when “God” is referred to, does indicate the Father or the Son?

Why did Jesus expressly reject the notion that he was making himself God?

Who does Jesus say the Father is to him?

Who does the Father say Jesus is to him?

Take care,

Mr. Steven

[NickHassan]

Welcome back Mr Steve,
Those who fostered trinity belief here have largely wandered off to find fellow adherents.
But a kaleidescope of other false teachiings continue to parade their brash speculations

[david]

Quote

In the New Testament when “God” is referred to, does indicate the Father or the Son?

Out of the 1300 or so times “god” appears in the Greek Scriptures, a few of these times are Jesus. The vast majority are his Father. In fact, about 5 of those times, it is referring to the Father as the God “of” Jesus.

[Mr. Steve]

Good answer David.

[Mr. Steve]

Nick;

Be of good cheer. It sounds like you are overcoming the world.

Steven

[evergreen]

Hi everyone

I am new to this forum and have to say that I am a little excited at what I am reading at the moment. I am currently an inactive Jehovahs Witness. I have not been attending our local meetings for a number of years now due to what I have learned about their past. This would include the failed prophecies, the flip flopping, the deceit and the lack of real love that existed in my last congregation.

I wrote to my presiding overseer in my congregation explaining why I would not be attending any more meetings, and he was very understanding. This man (in my eyes) is a genuine good man who understood my feelings at the time and said that he would not pursue the matter. He even said that the door would always be open if I wanted to go back. But, In my heart of hearts I know I can never go back. My knowledge and rational reasoning tell me that it would be wrong for me ever to set foot inside a Kingdom Hall again.

What makes me sad is that my wife and daughter are Jehovahs Witnesses, including many relatives and friends. I know one day I will have to stand up for what I believe in rather than hide away from what I truly believe in, although I have not found as yet.

In saying this, although there is much that the Jehovahs Witnesses got wrong, there is also a lot of things I feel they got right; such as the doctrine regarding the trinity. I simply dont beleive in the Trinity. I have tried to understand the Trinity, as most Christian denominations follow this Doctrine, but keep thinking it is a load of nonsense and simply doesnt make sense in my eyes?

For a number of years now, I have been searching the internet to find a site such as this that explains why the doctrine of the Trinity is wrong. I can only say that I am very excited reading heaven.nets view on the Trinity Doctrine and find that at last, there are people who can see through this very confusing Doctrine. I am looking very forward to reading more on this web site and hope that it will aid me in my search for God.

Thanks

Evergreen

[NickHassan]

Hi and welcome EG,
We all have to come from some background but it is where we go that matters.
No looking back but seek first the kingdom.

[david]

Quote

I can only say that I am very excited reading heaven.nets view on the Trinity Doctrine and find that at last, there are people who can see through this very confusing Doctrine.

Yes, other than JW's, there are literally dozens of people who don't believe the trinity.

[Lightenup]

Hello Evergreen and welcome!
I was a trinitarian and now I am not. I am also now different than my trinitarian husband…that's kind of a bummer! I can't deny what I have learned though. Press on! I'm glad that you have found this site, may it encourage you and strengthen you to a closer walk with truth. Beware, there are conflicting “truths” on here.

God bless,
LU/Kathi

[evergreen]

Thanks for replies everyone.

Thanks for replies everyone. Good point Nick Hassan – 'seek first the kingdom'. I am really out searching for bible truth, but yes this is one of the most important things I must do.

David – I believe there are many people out there who either dont believe in the Trinity doctrine, or accept it simply because their church teaches it, but are confused about it. It is a doctrine that when thought about, makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. It is nothing more than a fancy man made doctrine. The deceipt comes in whereby they call it a holy mystery, because their explanation of it is illogical. They also resort to deceiving people by then explaining that it is one of Gods holy mysterys to cover over any doubts??

Lightenup- Thanks for advice. I have been on another forum similiar to this one and there were conflicting views on that one as well. But I am however hoping that the general tone on this site is more positive than negative. From what I have read so far. There seems to be many people who have a love for God on this forum (albeit with differing views) and I look forward to discussing the bible freely, which should be our right as Christians.

EG

[kerwin]

I oppose the Trinity tenet just I oppose any that tenet that believes that Jesus is God because it denies that Jesus was tempted by evil just as we are or accuses God being tempted by evil.  Some Trinitarians illogically attempt to have it both ways despite knowing that God is not a God of contradictions.

I also disagree with the Jehovah Witnesses' Christology as the preexistence of Jesus is at contradiction with the idea he was conceived in Mary's womb since no one is created twice.

They are also incorrect in stating that Jesus is not a human being just as we are and so tempted by evil just as we are with no advantage except that through faith He received the Spirit while still in His mother's womb and so was freed from the curse of slavery to sin.

[NickHassan]

Hi KW,
Where does scripture say Jesus was anointed in the womb?

Scripture does say a body was prepared for him.

[kerwin]

Nick Hassan wrote:

Quote

Scripture does say a body was prepared for him.

You have a contradiction in scripture which means someone misinterpreted or mistranscribed either or both of the passages.

Hebrews 10:5-7(NIV) reads:

Quote

Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said:    “Sacrifice and offering you did not desire,       but a body you prepared for me; with burnt offerings and sin offerings       you were not pleased. Then I said, 'Here I am—it is written about me in the scroll—       I have come to do your will, O God.' “

As you see Hebrews quotes Psalms but does not get it quite right.

Psalms 40:6-8(NIV) reads:

Quote

Sacrifice and offering you did not desire,        but my ears you have pierced ;        burnt offerings and sin offerings        you did not require. Then I said, “Here I am, I have come—        it is written about me in the scroll. I desire to do your will, O my God;        your law is within my heart.”

This is what the Hebrew version states while the Septuagint is reported to say “but a body you have” according to a note in the NIV.  I assume the next word is “pierced” but it might be “prepared“.

Nick Hassan wrote:

Quote

Where does scripture say Jesus was anointed in the womb?

John 1 most likely makes the point but it is hard to understand.

Luke 1:35 also makes the point if you know what the angel is speaking of when he states “called the Son of God”.

Luke 1:35(NIV) wrote:

Quote

The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God.

Compare to what Romans 1 states.

Romans 1:2-4(NIV) reads:

Quote

the gospel he promised beforehand through his prophets in the Holy Scriptures regarding his Son, who as to his human nature was a descendant of David, and who through the Spirit of holiness was declared with power to be the Son of God by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord.

Then you have this prophecy.

Isaiah 42:1(NIV) reads:

Quote

“Here is my servant, whom I uphold,       my chosen one in whom I delight;       I will put my Spirit on him       and he will bring justice to the nations.”

[Author]

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