The Trinity Doctrine

[martian]

Quote (t8 @ Jan. 27 2009,10:49)

Quote (martian @ Jan. 27 2009,07:14) You are comparing apples and oranges. Exactly. If he existed in the form of theos and came in the flesh/walked as a man, humbled himself, then we can be like him. Not so much because he came in the flesh because that doesn't affect us in the slightest. It is what he did while in the flesh, and in the power of God, that makes us accomplish so much and to be like him. Remember, he came as one of us, and now we are becoming like him.

This is under the assumption that YHWH can become a man. To do this you are speaking of two distinct personalities. That of Jesus the man and of YHWH. If Jesus is purely human and a second personality/soul/being separate from YHWH, what purpose does it serve to be pre-existent?

Think of it this way —
Adam’s body is made of the materials of the Earth. (dust) Through Adam, Jesus’ body is of the same material via Mary. YHWH breathed life into Adam and he became a living being. Scripture says that Mary was found to be of child of the Holy Spirit. The proper translation (not influenced by Trinitarian belief) that she is of child of the special breath or wind. Result? The second Adam. YHWH continues to work to create what He started with Adam. Create is an interesting word in the Hebrew. It is “bara” and literally means to fatten. The Hebrews related everything to their nomadic lifestyle. When one of their livestock was fattened it was brought to maturity and completeness and ready to feed others. “Breath” in the Hebrew is also interesting. The breath represented the life/character of a being. Adam was created with the character of God. He only lacked maturity. Maturity comes through confrontation and choices. Adam made a poor choice and the character of His father that was breathed in him began to die. Adam lost the position of sonship because he covered the character (in his intimate places) of His Father with the things of the world. (fig leaves) Eve was seduced by the “anointed cherub that covers”, Satan. That was Satan’s original job to cover man. After his rebellion his personality remains the same. He covers man with his own dysfunction.
{As a side note – the Hebrew definition of Good and Evil is “function” and “dysfunction” God created/fattened man to be functional in the universe He prepared for him. When man became dysfunctional, He no longer worked in the way He was designed.
Jesus had the same character of God breathed into him. He never made a wrong choice all through his confrontation/maturing process. He never gave up His position as a son with dominion over the Earth. This is why He could calm the seas and make gold appear in a fish’s mouth ect. If Jesus had an advantage it came from being personally reared by His Father from His birth to Mary forward. On the other hand we have been raised by not so perfect a parent. As good as they might have been we still lack. For this reason we needed an example (Jesus) that we could follow as to how to walk with our mutual Father. Someone to tell us about our Father in ways that we could understand and relate to. We needed an anointing breath from God to overcome our upbringing. (filled with the Spirit/breath)
The second part of Christ’ purpose is equally important. His sacrifice indeed freed us from sin, BUT much more then that. He purchased back for us our position as sons of God. Every sin of the past, every sin we are presently committing and every sin we might commit in the future is already under the blood. Now is the time to stop focusing on being sin police for ourselves and focus on being raised and matured by our mutual father. Now is the time to restore/fatten/create that character of God in each of us. Now is the time to become functional as God within the universe and calling that God has on each one of us. This is also why we must also have teachings that function to facilitate that maturing and character restoring process. Not just mental ascension debate tools but living working teaching that really does something. The coverings we have hid behind need be stripped away and the seed of character breathed into us from the beginning, through Adam must be matured and made functional in our lives.

[martian]

Quote (t8 @ Jan. 27 2009,10:49)

Quote (martian @ Jan. 27 2009,07:14) You are comparing apples and oranges. Exactly. If he existed in the form of theos and came in the flesh/walked as a man, humbled himself, then we can be like him. Not so much because he came in the flesh because that doesn't affect us in the slightest. It is what he did while in the flesh, and in the power of God, that makes us accomplish so much and to be like him. Remember, he came as one of us, and now we are becoming like him.

Nothering in the NT was meant to be understood outside of it's roots in the Hebrew scriptures and culture.

Thi is a page you might find interesting.
http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/9_comparison.html

[SEEKING]

Quote (martian @ Jan. 27 2009,09:29)

Now is the time to become functional as God within the universe and calling that God has on each one of us. This is also why we must also have teachings that function to facilitate that maturing and character restoring process. Not just mental ascension debate tools but living working teaching that really does something.

AMEN TO THAT!

It has occured to me that we do not so much lack debaters,
scholars, etc. -Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? (1Cor. 1:20 NIV) – what we lack are equippers of the saints –

Ephes. 4:11-12 (KJV)
And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

Would that we had more effective and able equippers!

Seeking

[Lightenup]

Quote (martian @ Jan. 27 2009,10:11)

Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 27 2009,16:32) Hi Martian, You asked: Quote HOW CAN I WALK AS JESUS WALKED IF HIS WALK WAS DEPENDENT ON HIS PRE-EXISTENCE? Jesus's walk while in the flesh wasn't dependent on His pre-existence.  His walk whether pre-existent or in the earthy body was always dependent on the Father.  In that way we imitate the Son, by depending on the Father in all things. LU But there is the crux of the matter. Others on hee have said that Christ maintained memories and experiances from his pre-existence into his life on earth. It is memories, knowledge and experiances that mold our character and motivate our decission making. This would give Christ a trememdous advantage over the rest of us and yet we are required to make the same choices. It would be like you or me suddenly being transported to heven for a few weeks. There we enjoy intimate fellowship with our father and freedom from all tribulation on the Earth. If we were to be placed back on Earth again, it would be much easier to walk with God.

Hi Martian,
I would agree to think that if we were allowed some time in heaven and then came back here we could have an advantage to have greater hope and confidence in our faith. Some claim visions of heaven and near death experiences and the experience has seemed to increased their faith.

For those of us who have not had that kind of experience Jesus says:

John 20:29
Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed.”
NASU

Regarding Jesus's memory of a prior existence, I believe He willingly gave that up to become just like a baby. He was taught by His Heavenly Father as He grew and given what He needed to know about Himself (the Son) in His past.

BTW, it is easier to be like Jesus as a man, because Jesus was a man, not a woman. He wasn't a woman, a mother, a wife, a daughter, etc. so you men have an advantage at least He was a man too. I refuse to use that as an excuse though. His devotion to His Father is our example. We can all have that Father and choose devotion to Him as well as His Son. That is not a male/female thing.

LU

[NickHassan]

Hi M,
You say
” Adam made a poor choice and the character of His father that was breathed in him began to die.”

” Adam was created with the character of God. “

“Adam lost the position of sonship because he covered the character (in his intimate places) of His Father with the things of the world. (fig leaves) Eve was seduced by the “anointed cherub that covers”, Satan. That was Satan’s original job to cover man.”

“Jesus had the same character of God breathed into him.”

” He never gave up His position as a son with dominion over the Earth. This is why He could calm the seas and make gold appear in a fish’s mouth ect.”
Are these things written?

[Lightenup]

Quote (SEEKING @ Jan. 27 2009,11:59)

Quote (martian @ Jan. 27 2009,09:29) Now is the time to become functional as God within the universe and calling that God has on each one of us. This is also why we must also have teachings that function to facilitate that maturing and character restoring process. Not just mental ascension debate tools but living working teaching that really does something. AMEN TO THAT! It has occured to me that we do not so much lack debaters, scholars, etc. -Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? (1Cor. 1:20 NIV) – what we lack are equippers of the saints –    Ephes. 4:11-12 (KJV)      And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;  For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Would that we had more effective and able equippers! Seeking

Hi Seeking,
You are right we need to be better equipped. I think that being on this board has equipped me better to give a defense for that which I believe so the debating has been good, sometimes better than others and sometimes rather discouraging. It gives us a chance though to see if we tend to be a belittler of others or an encourager of others in truth. It helps us exercize patience, love, joy, peace, kindness, goodness, gentleness, and self-control. This board also helps us be more tolerant of others personalities etc. Just like anything, it is all in the way you look at it.

This board gives us opportunity to develop the character of Christ as we seek truth. Let us press on with that in mind:)

LU

[NickHassan]

Hi M,
So you believe Jesus was born superior to men with supernatural powers that could calm the sea.
Given your belief in logic and pragmatism how do these other beliefs align?
He was conceived of the Spirit but conception is of body

[martian]

Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 27 2009,11:28)

Martian said: Quote I do not have the time nor patience to teach you the influince of Hebrew culture on the writers of scripture. If you are interested I would suggest you start with this web page. You might want to do some exploring throughout the entire web site as I have found it to be a good one. Martian, Your lack of time and patience really means that you don't have the answers. If you have the time and patience to spout off then you have the time and patience to back it up. I have requested of you several times to give Scriptural proof for your presupposition that God cannot change. But you keep failing to reply. One more time: Please provide a Biblical statement  in context that verifies your presupposition that God cannot change. If you don't have the time and patience to answer this then don't post at all. It's that simple! thinker

I will give you this short answer, but not because of your demands that I do so.

Psalms 135

13Your name, O LORD, is everlasting,
Your remembrance, O LORD, throughout all generations.

The word “name” in this verse is “shem” and means character. This verse is saying that YHWH character is everlasting.

Let’s look at just one attribute of God’s character —

Job 34
10″Therefore, listen to me, you men of understanding.
Far be it from God to do wickedness,
And from the Almighty to do wrong.
11″For He pays a man according to his work,
And makes him find it according to his way.
12″Surely, God will not act wickedly,
And the Almighty will not pervert justice.

Psalms 18
30As for God, His way is blameless;
The word of the LORD is tried;
He is a shield to all who take refuge in Him.

James 1:13?Let no one say when he is tempted, ” I am being tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone.

From cover to cover the scriptures say God cannot be tempted or do evil. For God to be tempted, as Jesus was, God’s character would have to be changed. This in spite of scripture that says His character is everlasting. For God to literally become a man, His character would have to change.

Now I have said in the past that we are to grow into the character of God. I have tried to point out that this was difficult for those of the OT to understand because their examples were flawed. Jesus was the perfect representation of the character of God IN A HUMAN BEING with human frailties. Jesus could be tempted and Jesus could have failed.

[SEEKING]

Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 27 2009,11:08)

It gives us a chance though to see if we tend to be a belittler of others or an encourager of others in truth.  It helps us exercize patience, love, joy, peace, kindness, goodness, gentleness, and self-control.  This board also helps us be more tolerant of others personalities etc.  Just like anything, it is all in the way you look at it. This board gives us opportunity to develop the character of Christ as we seek truth.  Let us press on with that in mind:) LU

LU,

Excellent thoughts! Thanks. It is what we make of it, isn't it.

Seeking

[KangarooJack]

Martian said:

Quote

Just exactly who died and made you God. What arogance to think you can judge my motives. I thought that was God's job. Tell me is usurping the position exclusive to God something you do often.

Martian,
I apologize for my provocative statements. Please forgive me. I took it personal when you said that you don't have the time or patience to influence me on the Hebrew. I have also felt impatient  because you have failed several times now to give Scriptural support in context that God cannot change.

Nevertheless, I have no excuse. I accept your rebuke and will strive to correct my fault.

your friend,
thinker

[KangarooJack]

Martian said:

Quote

But there is the crux of the matter. Others on hee have said that Christ maintained memories and experiances from his pre-existence into his life on earth. It is memories, knowledge and experiances that mold our character and motivate our decission making. This would give Christ a trememdous advantage over the rest of us and yet we are required to make the same choices. It would be like you or me suddenly being transported to heven for a few weeks. There we enjoy intimate fellowship with our father and freedom from all tribulation on the Earth. If we were to be placed back on Earth again, it would be much easier to walk with God.

But YHWH said,

Quote

I WILL BECOME WHAT I WILL BECOME

.

Therefore, if He wants to enter the human experience ignorant and grow to learn as the rest of us then He can certainly can do it. You limit God when you infer that He cannot change or impose limitations on Himself. Paul said that Jesus “EMPTIED Himself”.

Again, He said, “I will BECOME what I will become.”

Please see my previous post today with my apology to you.

thinker

[martian]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 28 2009,05:02)

Hi M, You say ” Adam made a poor choice and the character of His father that was breathed in him began to die.” ” Adam was created with the character of God. “ “Adam lost the position of sonship because he covered the character (in his intimate places) of His Father with the things of the world. (fig leaves) Eve was seduced by the “anointed cherub that covers”, Satan. That was Satan’s original job to cover man.” “Jesus had the same character of God breathed into him.” ” He never gave up His position as a son with dominion over the Earth. This is why He could calm the seas and make gold appear in a fish’s mouth ect.” Are these things written?

Yes these things are written in the original Hebrew scriptures.

[martian]

Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 28 2009,05:57)

Martian said: Quote Just exactly who died and made you God. What arogance to think you can judge my motives. I thought that was God's job. Tell me is usurping the position exclusive to God something you do often. Martian, I apologize for my provocative statements. Please forgive me. I took it personal when you said that you don't have the time or patience to influence me on the Hebrew. I have also felt impatient  because you have failed several times now to give Scriptural support in context that God cannot change. Nevertheless, I have no excuse. I accept your rebuke and will strive to correct my fault. your friend, thinker

Apology excepted without reservation.

[martian]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 28 2009,05:22)

Hi M, So you believe Jesus was born superior to men with supernatural powers that could calm the sea. Given your belief in logic and pragmatism how do these other beliefs align? He was conceived of the Spirit but conception is of body

Do you have children? When you and your wife conceived a child was it only a body or was there a soul or character conceived too?

[martian]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 28 2009,05:22)

Hi M, So you believe Jesus was born superior to men with supernatural powers that could calm the sea. Given your belief in logic and pragmatism how do these other beliefs align? He was conceived of the Spirit but conception is of body

In Hebrew (and other) cultures there came a time when a son was granted the right to exercise the power or the authority of the father. Was he less of a son before that time? No, but there came a time when he was placed in a position of representing the father. I can speculate that it occured at his baptism or perhaps sooner. Not too sure from scripture. Whenever it ws it was when enough character had been matured to handle the rigors of adult responsibilities.

[NickHassan]

Quote (martian @ Jan. 28 2009,06:31)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 28 2009,05:02) Hi M, You say ” Adam made a poor choice and the character of His father that was breathed in him began to die.” ” Adam was created with the character of God. “ “Adam lost the position of sonship because he covered the character (in his intimate places) of His Father with the things of the world. (fig leaves) Eve was seduced by the “anointed cherub that covers”, Satan. That was Satan’s original job to cover man.” “Jesus had the same character of God breathed into him.” ” He never gave up His position as a son with dominion over the Earth. This is why He could calm the seas and make gold appear in a fish’s mouth ect.” Are these things written? Yes these things are written in the original Hebrew scriptures.

Hi m,
Should we rely on your assurances?

Where does it say Jesus was a superman with supernatural powers from birth?

We cannot follow such a man.

Conception is something that women do.

Psalm 51:5
Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Song of Solomon 3:4
It was but a little that I passed from them, but I found him whom my soul loveth: I held him, and would not let him go, until I had brought him into my mother's house, and into the chamber of her that conceived me.

Isaiah 7:14
Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Body is of earth but soul and spirit are of the breath of God given to Adam.

[martian]

Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 28 2009,06:08)

Martian said: Quote But there is the crux of the matter. Others on hee have said that Christ maintained memories and experiances from his pre-existence into his life on earth. It is memories, knowledge and experiances that mold our character and motivate our decission making. This would give Christ a trememdous advantage over the rest of us and yet we are required to make the same choices. It would be like you or me suddenly being transported to heven for a few weeks. There we enjoy intimate fellowship with our father and freedom from all tribulation on the Earth. If we were to be placed back on Earth again, it would be much easier to walk with God. But YHWH said, Quote I WILL BECOME WHAT I WILL BECOME . Therefore, if He wants to enter the human experience ignorant and grow to learn as the rest of us then He can certainly can do it. You limit God when you infer that He cannot change or impose limitations on Himself. Paul said that Jesus “EMPTIED Himself”. Again, He said, “I will BECOME what I will become.” Please see my previous post today with my apology to you. thinker

You spoke to me about posting scripture within context. The context of Phil 2 that you site saying Jesus emptied himself is about attitude not deity.

Secondly the fact that Jesus was in the form of God does not denote deity. We are all created in the image of God which means form.

Image as in the image we are created in is the word “TsLM” and means an outline or representation of the original. Specific to Gen 1:26 it carries the meaning of an image or form of the original. We were created in the form or image of God.
The above definition is from the Ancient Hebrew Lexicon of the Bible.

Thirdly even if you were correct that THWH can become anything He wants does not prove that He became a man. As I have already posted, God’s character does not change and for him to become a man you would need change his character.

[martian]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 28 2009,06:50)

Quote (martian @ Jan. 28 2009,06:31) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 28 2009,05:02) Hi M, You say ” Adam made a poor choice and the character of His father that was breathed in him began to die.” ” Adam was created with the character of God. “ “Adam lost the position of sonship because he covered the character (in his intimate places) of His Father with the things of the world. (fig leaves) Eve was seduced by the “anointed cherub that covers”, Satan. That was Satan’s original job to cover man.” “Jesus had the same character of God breathed into him.” ” He never gave up His position as a son with dominion over the Earth. This is why He could calm the seas and make gold appear in a fish’s mouth ect.” Are these things written? Yes these things are written in the original Hebrew scriptures. Hi m, Should we rely on your assurances? Where does it say Jesus was a superman with supernatural powers from birth? We cannot follow such a man. Conception is something that women do. Psalm 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me. Song of Solomon 3:4 It was but a little that I passed from them, but I found him whom my soul loveth: I held him, and would not let him go, until I had brought him into my mother's house, and into the chamber of her that conceived me. Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. Body is of earth but soul and spirit are of the breath of God given to Adam.

can a woman concieve without a man or in the case of Mary without God's intervention?
Get over it. you are just arguing to argue now.

[NickHassan]

Hi M,
So back to the other issues.
Can we follow a superman?

[martian]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 28 2009,07:05)

Hi M, So back to the other issues. Can we follow a superman?

I have already answered that question and your constant repititions are about to get me to leave this board again. Why don't you actually read my posts instead of just putting words up on the board.

[Author]

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