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I am outta here for a while – This place is becoming repetitive and lacking to entertain. I have posted the anwers to most of these questions so many times I only have to retireve my previous posts to answer. Boring!!!
Most on hee are using resources that date from 11 years ago and do not include information of more recent archeological data such as the Dead Sea Scrols. That would not be so bad except most are unwilling to go beyond the antique references.
I have tried several times to illuminate the subject with more accurate renderings from the original hebrew texts and most have been unwilling to even look at the info.
New Testament Christians are the worst. Locked in Greco-roman thought patterns they cannot see outside of their own culture to the culture from which the scriptures were written.For those of you unwilling to punch a web site I post this excerpt from The Ancient Hebrew Research Center.
A language is closely tied to the culture of those who speak the language. In the case of the Hebrews who were a nomadic people of the Near East, their language is closely connected to their nomadic culture. Each Hebrew word describes an action that can be seen in the nomadic journeys of the Hebrews through the wilderness. ??All modern day translations of the Bible are written from a very westernized perspective and have erased the original Hebraic, Eastern, perspective of the original words in the text. Once the Hebraicness of the text is restored, a common theme can be found throughout the Bible rising to the surface – our nomadic migration through the wilderness of life. ??It is simply assumed by most people that everyone everywhere thinks in pretty much the same manner. This could not be farther from the truth. In fact, the thinking processes of different cultures are as different as day is from night. In this book we will be examining Hebrew words and ideas so that we can better understand how the mind of the Hebrew works. Understanding how the Ancient Hebrew thought is crucial in proper Biblical understanding. If we are to interpret the Biblical text according to our way of thinking then the interpretation will be contaminated with modern Greco-Roman thinking. ??In my many years of research into the language of the Bible I have discovered three keys to proper interpretation of the words and ideas within the text. ??Culture ??The Hebrew language, as is the case with every language, is closely tied to the culture the speakers and writers belong to. When reading the Bible, whether in Hebrew, English or any other language, it is essential that it be read through the eyes and mind of the Hebrew culture and not one's own culture. To illustrate this lets look at Isaiah 40:22. ?
It is he… that stretches out the heavens as a curtain
??From our own culture we could conclude that this is a reference to the creation of the stars which we know to be giant balls of burning gas billions of miles from us. But, this perspective, as accurate as it may be, must be ignored and instead understood from Isaiah's perspective of the heavens. Inside the goat hair tent of the Hebrews the roof is black but the gaps between some of the fibers of the material allow for pinholes of light to penetrate through giving the appearance of stars in the black sky. For this reason, the Hebrews saw the night sky as God's tent stretched out over the world, his family. ??Action ??Our modern languages are the product of a Greco-Roman world where abstract words are prolific. An abstract is a word or thought that cannot be related to one of the five senses; hearing, sight, touch, smell and taste. However, each Hebrew word is related to a concrete idea, a substance of action. A good illustration of the differences is the word anger which, from a modern perspective, is an abstract idea. The Hebrew word for anger is ?? aph [639] but literally means “a flaring of the nostrils in anger,” a substance of action. In fact, the word ?? aph [639] is also the same Hebrew word for the nose. Throughout this book you will be challenged to cease thinking abstractly and instead open your mind to the concrete meaning of words as they were understood from an Hebraic perspective. ??Function ??Hebrew thought is more concerned with function whereas we, and our Greco-Roman thought, are more concerned with appearance. When we read the Biblical text we are constantly creating a mental image of what the text is describing but the original author is not describing an image of appearance but an image of function. ?
and this is how you are to make it, the length of the vessel is three hundred cubits long, fifty cubits wide and thirty cubits high.
??Is this description telling us what the ark looked like? Not at all, it is describing its function by telling us that this ark is very large and capable of transporting a very large load of animals. ??When keeping these three keys in mind while reading the text you will begin to approach the Bible from a Hebrew perspective rather than from the Greek perspective we have all been taught since birth.End quote —
The culture of the Hebrew writers of scripture is everything. Nothing in the NT is meant to be understood outside of the OT or outside of the Hebrew culture.
Quote (martian @ Jan. 28 2009,07:15) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 28 2009,07:05) Hi M,
So back to the other issues.
Can we follow a superman?
I have already answered that question and your constant repititions are about to get me to leave this board again. Why don't you actually read my posts instead of just putting words up on the board.
Hi M,
Perhaps I misunderstood.
Did you not say he had special powers of his own even before he was anointed with the Holy Spirit and power?Acts 10
38How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.Surely you will support your presentations with scriptural evidence so we can all learn?
Martian said:
Quote You spoke to me about posting scripture within context. The context of Phil 2 that you site saying Jesus emptied himself is about attitude not deity. Secondly the fact that Jesus was in the form of God does not denote deity. We are all created in the image of God which means form.
The expression “form of God” in Philippians 2 has the same connotations that the expression “form of man” has.
Form of man = man
Form of God = God
I think it is very clear. In the least we can safely say that Jesus was pre-existent.
thinker
Hi LU:
I have read your response to my posts, and I can see that it is futile to continue to discuss this subject. You and others believe that Jesus pre-existed, but I and others do not, and since there is no scripture which states outright that he did pre-exist, I not know how this can be proven.
Also, I know that he was conceived of the Holy Ghost, and that he exists now at the right hand of God my Father, and that God's testimony regarding him is true because His Spirit dwelling within me testifies to this reality. This is what matters to me. What makes him so awesome is that he was a man just like you and me and he gave his life for us that we might have the privilege and honour of being children of the Most High God.
I do not believe that a pre-existant Jesus adds anything to what God has done for me through His Only Begotten Son and His Christ, and if he did pre-exist his birth into this world, I do not believe that God would have hidden this from us.
Therefore, I do not think that there is anything more that I can add to any discussion about pre-existance.
My desire is God's very best for you and your family
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 28 2009,07:25) Quote (martian @ Jan. 28 2009,07:15) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 28 2009,07:05) Hi M,
So back to the other issues.
Can we follow a superman?
I have already answered that question and your constant repititions are about to get me to leave this board again. Why don't you actually read my posts instead of just putting words up on the board.
Hi M,
Perhaps I misunderstood.
Did you not say he had special powers of his own even before he was anointed with the Holy Spirit and power?Acts 10
38How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.Surely you will support your presentations with scriptural evidence so we can all learn?
No I did not. I said I did not know when His father gave him the authority to act in His name. Possibly upon his baptism.Hi M,
You said
“Jesus had the same character of God breathed into him. He never made a wrong choice all through his confrontation/maturing process. He never gave up His position as a son with dominion over the Earth. This is why He could calm the seas and make gold appear in a fish’s mouth ect.”OK Sorry.
So if what you now say is true then his sonship only began at his anointing and not his conception?
Please correct he if I have misunderstood.Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 28 2009,07:59) Martian said: Quote You spoke to me about posting scripture within context. The context of Phil 2 that you site saying Jesus emptied himself is about attitude not deity. Secondly the fact that Jesus was in the form of God does not denote deity. We are all created in the image of God which means form.
The expression “form of God” in Philippians 2 has the same connotations that the expression “form of man” has.
Form of man = man
Form of God = God
I think it is very clear. In the least we can safely say that Jesus was pre-existent.
thinker
OK so how do you explain the definition of image in Gen 1 that defines image as form. I appears that man was created in the form of God.
According to your logic we can safely say that all men are pre-existent.Your theory fails on the context issue since the issue is attitude not deity.
Secondly – the term “form” in the Greek is morphe which means the outward appearance or how something strikes the eye.
Thirdly – The two ststements form of God and form of man are esentially saying the same thing.
Even though the book was written in Greek it is still written by the Hebrew Paul. In the Hebrew culture the most common form of poetry is called paralelism. In that form of writing one subject is spoken of two or more times from different perspectives giving a more clear picture.
this is very clear in Genesis where the story of creation is repeated 7 diferent times and ways.Forth – Your theory fails to continue the integrety of God's character. God's character is eternal. Part of the character is his inability to be tempted. Jesus did have the ability to be tempted. For God to become man He would have to change his own character. This would essentially make him a different creature. Now you have two creatures pre-existing in heaven for all time. YHWH and Christ with a different character then His father.
It appears that all you have is a reliance on English translations and an insitence on forcing scripture to support your preconceived idea of doctrine.
Now I have answered these questions several times. I am not interested in answerig them again. I do not need to win or convince you of anything. As some have said this venue might have value as a sharpening tool. I have seen nothing new here that I have not addressed many times before. Please find a subject with some interest.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 28 2009,09:59) Hi M,
You said
“Jesus had the same character of God breathed into him. He never made a wrong choice all through his confrontation/maturing process. He never gave up His position as a son with dominion over the Earth. This is why He could calm the seas and make gold appear in a fish’s mouth ect.”OK Sorry.
So if what you now say is true then his sonship only began at his anointing and not his conception?
Please correct he if I have misunderstood.
If you will read the remainder of that post you will see that I spoke of the Hebrew culture wherein there came a time when a son was placed in a position to carry the authority of the father. This does not negate the fact that he was a son prior to this placement, but he was an imature son without the same authority or responsibility. In those days boys matued at a much earlier time. (possible becuae of different upbringing) the age of boys when they were placed was about 12. This is still carried on today in the formality of the barmitzvah (sp) At this time the boys were expected to start apprentiship in buisness and carrying the authority of the father speaking in his name.Quote (942767 @ Jan. 28 2009,09:41) Hi LU: I have read your response to my posts, and I can see that it is futile to continue to discuss this subject. You and others believe that Jesus pre-existed, but I and others do not, and since there is no scripture which states outright that he did pre-exist, I not know how this can be proven.
Also, I know that he was conceived of the Holy Ghost, and that he exists now at the right hand of God my Father, and that God's testimony regarding him is true because His Spirit dwelling within me testifies to this reality. This is what matters to me. What makes him so awesome is that he was a man just like you and me and he gave his life for us that we might have the privilege and honour of being children of the Most High God.
I do not believe that a pre-existant Jesus adds anything to what God has done for me through His Only Begotten Son and His Christ, and if he did pre-exist his birth into this world, I do not believe that God would have hidden this from us.
Therefore, I do not think that there is anything more that I can add to any discussion about pre-existance.
My desire is God's very best for you and your family
Love in Christ,
Marty
Well said Marty. there is nothing about a pre-existent Christ that is necessary for his mission as the Christ or for His ability to be perfected by what He suffered. there is nothing that A purely human Christ cannot do that a pre-existent Christ can do.The one unfortunate thing about this doctrine is that it leaves an avenue of doubt as to how much this pre-existence effected his ability to walk with God. If it effected 40% of his ability then that is 40% of his example that we cannot use. It leaves an oppening for the devil to bring doubt on the example of Jesus Christ and our ability to be really like him. In fact, most that I have spoken to that believe this doctrine do not believe that we can really be like Christ in any major way. They are being robbed of their God given destiny.
Martian! Even though I do not believe in a trinity doctrine, I do believe in a preexisting of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Why God did this I am not sure, but I do speculate on that. First late me prove the preexisting to you.John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word and the Word was God and the Word was with God.
verse 2 He was in the beginning with God
verse 3 All things were made through Him and without Him nothing was made that was made.
verse 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men
verse 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
Col. 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creationverse 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are in earth, visible and
invisible…… All things were created through Him and for Him.
verse 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.verse 18 And He is the head of the body, the Church who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead
that in all things He may have preeminence.Brother that believe in this are true Christian and your accusing them of not being with God, is very much uncalled for.
Jesus emptied Himself and He did become like us and became a ,man. I for one would not compare myself with Jesus, I am not worthy to touch the string on His garment, We are to grow in Love and patience and all good things and become more like Him, yes.
Since He died for us and we are now under the New Covenant spoken of in Like 22:20. John tells us if we believe that we are without sin the truth is not in us. However now we have a Mediator Jesus Christ, we can go directly to the Throne of God and ask for forgiveness of our Sins. Sins are not imputed to us.
Christ also in
John 17:5 said this ” And now O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself with the glory which I had
with You before the world was.
Rev. 3:14 says this … “These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of
the creation of God.Who is God talking about who is this True Witness etc.
And BTW I am not worried about being robbed of my destiny just because I believe in the TRUTH.
Now I would like to make you think and this is speculation, however. After God created Jesus , through God's Holy Spirit Jesus created all and also the Angels who are higher then we are right now. When Lucifer who was in charge of this world sinned and 1/3 of the Angels went with Him, God had a second plan for us. He wants all to love and Honor Him without any attachment, so he is testing us and making us sick and tired of this ugly sin. God has tested me quit often in my 70 years here on earth. I failed lots of times, like a stupid human. But I am learning, I belief that we will never reach were we can say I am without sin, just that it is not imputed to us. I also have often wondered about all the vast Universe out there. The angels shouted for joy when God created the Universe. You know I do not believe that it was void in the beginning. Satan and His Angels lived here and were supposed have taken care of it. He destroyed it so no Human could live her. That also explains all those tall Pre–Historic Animals. So God re created this earth for us to live in.IMO
Peace and LOve Irene
Marty and Martian,
The mission/missions of the pre-existent Son was accomplished before Mary's conception. After that, His Father sent Him to begin the mission/missions of the Son as the Son of David on earth. After the cross, the Son of God began His next set of missions in heaven with the Father. It was while He was on earth that His “light” enlightened every man so that those who received Him, they were given the right to become children of God. That was not His mission beforehand apparently and that is why you don't read of it beforehand.LU
Quote (martian @ Jan. 28 2009,10:40) Quote (942767 @ Jan. 28 2009,09:41) Hi LU: I have read your response to my posts, and I can see that it is futile to continue to discuss this subject. You and others believe that Jesus pre-existed, but I and others do not, and since there is no scripture which states outright that he did pre-exist, I not know how this can be proven.
Also, I know that he was conceived of the Holy Ghost, and that he exists now at the right hand of God my Father, and that God's testimony regarding him is true because His Spirit dwelling within me testifies to this reality. This is what matters to me. What makes him so awesome is that he was a man just like you and me and he gave his life for us that we might have the privilege and honour of being children of the Most High God.
I do not believe that a pre-existant Jesus adds anything to what God has done for me through His Only Begotten Son and His Christ, and if he did pre-exist his birth into this world, I do not believe that God would have hidden this from us.
Therefore, I do not think that there is anything more that I can add to any discussion about pre-existance.
My desire is God's very best for you and your family
Love in Christ,
Marty
Well said Marty. there is nothing about a pre-existent Christ that is necessary for his mission as the Christ or for His ability to be perfected by what He suffered. there is nothing that A purely human Christ cannot do that a pre-existent Christ can do.The one unfortunate thing about this doctrine is that it leaves an avenue of doubt as to how much this pre-existence effected his ability to walk with God. If it effected 40% of his ability then that is 40% of his example that we cannot use. It leaves an oppening for the devil to bring doubt on the example of Jesus Christ and our ability to be really like him. In fact, most that I have spoken to that believe this doctrine do not believe that we can really be like Christ in any major way. They are being robbed of their God given destiny.
Hi Brother:You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. God does not force anything on anyone. Once I have given my understanding on this, the only thing left to do is to pray that God will somehow bring us into unity.
Jesus was and is a man. Of course, not just any man but the Son of the Most High and living God.
But he could not have been in the form of God at some point and then become a man. There is only “One God”.
And the scriptures state:
Quote Num 23:19 God [is] not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do [it]? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good? This doctrine also says that he in the form of God laid the foundations of the earth, but his contradicts what Genesis 1 states which says, “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth”. Did God teach Jesus in his form of God and Jesus through the instruction of the God created the heavens and the earth? God asks Job,
Quote Job 38:4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. Was Jesus in the form of God in his pre-existent form a Son of God? Was he then God the Son as the doctrine of trinity teaches?
This doctrine just leaves too much to speculation to be true. Anyway, I have said what I can say. Each of us is responsible to God for what we teach.
My desire is God's very best for you and your family.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (Cindy @ Jan. 27 2009,21:30) Martian! Even though I do not believe in a trinity doctrine, I do believe in a preexisting of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Why God did this I am not sure, but I do speculate on that. First late me prove the preexisting to you.John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word and the Word was God and the Word was with God.
verse 2 He was in the beginning with God
verse 3 All things were made through Him and without Him nothing was made that was made.
verse 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men
verse 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
Col. 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creationverse 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are in earth, visible and
invisible…… All things were created through Him and for Him.
verse 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.verse 18 And He is the head of the body, the Church who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead
that in all things He may have preeminence.Brother that believe in this are true Christian and your accusing them of not being with God, is very much uncalled for.
Jesus emptied Himself and He did become like us and became a ,man. I for one would not compare myself with Jesus, I am not worthy to touch the string on His garment, We are to grow in Love and patience and all good things and become more like Him, yes.
Since He died for us and we are now under the New Covenant spoken of in Like 22:20. John tells us if we believe that we are without sin the truth is not in us. However now we have a Mediator Jesus Christ, we can go directly to the Throne of God and ask for forgiveness of our Sins. Sins are not imputed to us.
Christ also in
John 17:5 said this ” And now O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself with the glory which I had
with You before the world was.
Rev. 3:14 says this … “These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of
the creation of God.Who is God talking about who is this True Witness etc.
And BTW I am not worried about being robbed of my destiny just because I believe in the TRUTH.
Now I would like to make you think and this is speculation, however. After God created Jesus , through God's Holy Spirit Jesus created all and also the Angels who are higher then we are right now. When Lucifer who was in charge of this world sinned and 1/3 of the Angels went with Him, God had a second plan for us. He wants all to love and Honor Him without any attachment, so he is testing us and making us sick and tired of this ugly sin. God has tested me quit often in my 70 years here on earth. I failed lots of times, like a stupid human. But I am learning, I belief that we will never reach were we can say I am without sin, just that it is not imputed to us. I also have often wondered about all the vast Universe out there. The angels shouted for joy when God created the Universe. You know I do not believe that it was void in the beginning. Satan and His Angels lived here and were supposed have taken care of it. He destroyed it so no Human could live her. That also explains all those tall Pre–Historic Animals. So God re created this earth for us to live in.IMO
Peace and LOve Irene
Good words Irene! Keep strong in your faith
Love, KathiDear Marty and anyone who cares to read,
Keep seeking the Lord Marty, don't be discouraged.I want to share my theory with you to consider:
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. I believe that was the Heavenly Father, all alone, no Son at this point. Also, no form to the earth and nothing in or on it, it was void. The Heavenly Father was and is the source of all things therefore He is the Most High God. Then in that beginning was the word “Let there be light,” I believe that was the announcement of His Son…and there was light, I believe that was the appearance of His Son. And that light was with God and that light was the begotten God, not the God who is the source of all things however. Then through the begotten God, God's Son, all things were created in heaven and on earth not apart from the power and direction and purpose of His Father. It was after the light existed that the earth's foundation was formed, remember it was formless before this.
The Most High God, the source of all things, the incomparable, the first and last of His kind, had a Son from His own womb, His only begotten Son, the first and last of His kind, an only child from the womb of God, the Firstborn of all creation, a begotten God, not created but actually born. He was not the Most High God yet being the Son of the Most High God makes Him God also. God begats God. Man begats man. Dog begats dog, etc.
When God speaks of there being one True God, I believe that refers to the God that always existed and was the source of all things and was alone for a time. When we believe in the one True God, we learn to believe all truths that He has for us and one of those truths is that He has a precious Son through whom He prepared this world for us to live in. And also that He gave His only begotten Son to die for our sins, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.
I believe the Son of God fellowshipped with His Father and the Father loved Him long before He willingly emptied Himself to become a bond-servant in the flesh, even a baby, to serve us. He gave up so much to do that. He gave up being in the immediate presence of His Father, His God, His source. Now He is back in the immediate presence of His Father again, preparing another place for us. We will enjoy the immediate presence of the Father and the Son one day because of His willingness to come, His sinless life, and His obedience unto death. All that He did was because of the Father working through Him and that will continue forever.
We will not be in the immediate presence of the Father because of our sinless life or our obedience unto death eventho we may be martyred for our faith someday. It will be because of the Son's obedience and death and our surrender to His Lordship in our lives.
Anyway, that is my understanding after contemplating for many years a word that I received from the Lord regarding the light of day one.
Thanks for reading.
I wish you and your family well also,
LUMartian wrote:
Quote OK so how do you explain the definition of image in Gen 1 that defines image as form. I appears that man was created in the form of God.
According to your logic we can safely say that all men are pre-existent.Your theory fails on the context issue since the issue is attitude not deity.
Secondly – the term “form” in the Greek is morphe which means the outward appearance or how something strikes the eye.
Thirdly – The two ststements form of God and form of man are esentially saying the same thing.
Even though the book was written in Greek it is still written by the Hebrew Paul. In the Hebrew culture the most common form of poetry is called paralelism. In that form of writing one subject is spoken of two or more times from different perspectives giving a more clear picture.
this is very clear in Genesis where the story of creation is repeated 7 diferent times and ways.Hello Martian,
Your exegesis of language is seriously flawed for these reasons:1. If the word “form” refers to the “image” of Genesis 1 as you say, then Jesus was wrong when He said to the Jews, “You have neither heard His [God's] voice or seen His FORM” (John 5:37). The Jews themselves were created in God's image. So they were God's “form”. Every man that walked the earth was God's “form” if image and form are the same.
Yet Jesus said that they had NOT seen God's “form”. Therefore, the expressions “form” and “image” are not equal as you say. How could Jesus have said that they had not seen God's form when all men walking the earth were God's form? I think your problem is that you think that the term “spirit” is destitute of the idea of form. But spirit has “form” too.
Major premise: God is spirit
Minor premise: God has form
Conclusion: Spirit has form2. Philippians 2 says that Christ had existed in the form of God PRIOR to His taking the form of a servant. It says that He BECAME a man. It does not say that He BECAME in the form of God. There is clearly a chronology expressed in the text. He existed in the form of God and BECAME in the form of man.
Again, YHWH said “I will BECOME what I will become”.
thinker
Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 28 2009,17:47) Dear Marty and anyone who cares to read,
Keep seeking the Lord Marty, don't be discouraged.I want to share my theory with you to consider:
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. I believe that was the Heavenly Father, all alone, no Son at this point. Also, no form to the earth and nothing in or on it, it was void. The Heavenly Father was and is the source of all things therefore He is the Most High God. Then in that beginning was the word “Let there be light,” I believe that was the announcement of His Son…and there was light, I believe that was the appearance of His Son. And that light was with God and that light was the begotten God, not the God who is the source of all things however. Then through the begotten God, God's Son, all things were created in heaven and on earth not apart from the power and direction and purpose of His Father. It was after the light existed that the earth's foundation was formed, remember it was formless before this.
The Most High God, the source of all things, the incomparable, the first and last of His kind, had a Son from His own womb, His only begotten Son, the first and last of His kind, an only child from the womb of God, the Firstborn of all creation, a begotten God, not created but actually born. He was not the Most High God yet being the Son of the Most High God makes Him God also. God begats God. Man begats man. Dog begats dog, etc.
When God speaks of there being one True God, I believe that refers to the God that always existed and was the source of all things and was alone for a time. When we believe in the one True God, we learn to believe all truths that He has for us and one of those truths is that He has a precious Son through whom He prepared this world for us to live in. And also that He gave His only begotten Son to die for our sins, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.
I believe the Son of God fellowshipped with His Father and the Father loved Him long before He willingly emptied Himself to become a bond-servant in the flesh, even a baby, to serve us. He gave up so much to do that. He gave up being in the immediate presence of His Father, His God, His source. Now He is back in the immediate presence of His Father again, preparing another place for us. We will enjoy the immediate presence of the Father and the Son one day because of His willingness to come, His sinless life, and His obedience unto death. All that He did was because of the Father working through Him and that will continue forever.
We will not be in the immediate presence of the Father because of our sinless life or our obedience unto death eventho we may be martyred for our faith someday. It will be because of the Son's obedience and death and our surrender to His Lordship in our lives.
Anyway, that is my understanding after contemplating for many years a word that I received from the Lord regarding the light of day one.
Thanks for reading.
I wish you and your family well also,
LU
Well, Hello Kathi! Hope everything is fine with you. Good post and I do agree. However I like to give Marty this scripture to go along with your explanation.John 17:5″ And now O Father glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
Peace and Love IreneQuote (Lightenup @ Jan. 27 2009,23:47) Dear Marty and anyone who cares to read,
Keep seeking the Lord Marty, don't be discouraged.I want to share my theory with you to consider:
LU,Good words spoken in kindness and humility. I appreciate the spirit in which you wrote.
I want to encourage all of us to remember the admonition of the word – Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen. 30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. 31 Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice. 32 Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you. (Eph.4:29-32).
In our zeal to convinve of our point I see US straying from this admonition. It is easy to escape toward,
Quote the Lord is still working on me . The challenge is to take every thought captive before we commit it to print.
Seeking
Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 28 2009,20:47) Martian wrote: Quote OK so how do you explain the definition of image in Gen 1 that defines image as form. I appears that man was created in the form of God.
According to your logic we can safely say that all men are pre-existent.Your theory fails on the context issue since the issue is attitude not deity.
Secondly – the term “form” in the Greek is morphe which means the outward appearance or how something strikes the eye.
Thirdly – The two ststements form of God and form of man are esentially saying the same thing.
Even though the book was written in Greek it is still written by the Hebrew Paul. In the Hebrew culture the most common form of poetry is called paralelism. In that form of writing one subject is spoken of two or more times from different perspectives giving a more clear picture.
this is very clear in Genesis where the story of creation is repeated 7 diferent times and ways.Hello Martian,
Your exegesis of language is seriously flawed for these reasons:1. If the word “form” refers to the “image” of Genesis 1 as you say, then Jesus was wrong when He said to the Jews, “You have neither heard His [God's] voice or seen His FORM” (John 5:37). The Jews themselves were created in God's image. So they were God's “form”. Every man that walked the earth was God's “form” if image and form are the same.
Yet Jesus said that they had NOT seen God's “form”. Therefore, the expressions “form” and “image” are not equal as you say. How could Jesus have said that they had not seen God's form when all men walking the earth were God's form? I think your problem is that you think that the term “spirit” is destitute of the idea of form. But spirit has “form” too.
Major premise: God is spirit
Minor premise: God has form
Conclusion: Spirit has form2. Philippians 2 says that Christ had existed in the form of God PRIOR to His taking the form of a servant. It says that He BECAME a man. It does not say that He BECAME in the form of God. There is clearly a chronology expressed in the text. He existed in the form of God and BECAME in the form of man.
Again, YHWH said “I will BECOME what I will become”.
thinker
Nice theory.
My info on image meaninf form comes from the ancient Hebrew text and verified by the Ancient Hebrew Lexicon. Where does your proof against it come from, Your doctrine? In otherwords it can't mean what I said cause it messes up your doctrine.It does not matter what order the things were said in because the context is still about attitude not deity. You cannot simply change the context because it is inconvient for your doctrine. Well I guess you can change the contxt if you do not wish to be scriptural. Is that what you wish?
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