The Trinity Doctrine

[martian]

Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 23 2009,05:58)

Quote (martian @ Jan. 22 2009,12:16) Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 23 2009,03:37) Quote (martian @ Jan. 21 2009,13:50) Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 21 2009,09:21) Martian, The exegesis is not what's broken here that needs fixing, IMO.  Perhaps Christ doesn't need to be exactly like us for us to be like Him.  The Father doesn't need to be exactly like Christ for Christ to be like Him.  See how it works? LU The father is not written of in scripture as our example. Jesus is! For him to be our example he must be like us. This was one of the major purposes for his lfe. Otherwise you place everything that Christ was an example of as speculation. Where does he as an example stop? Again your exegisis clouds the picture. Is he an example of how to treat children? Is he an example of how to pray? Is he an example of how to teach? is he an example of how to interface with God? Is he an example of the resurection of the dead? Is he an example of the hope of glory? Is he an example of the fulfillment of God's plan? Either he is an example in everything He did and was or everything he was and did is subject to speculation. Hi Martian, My point in which you quoted was that the Father was definetly Christ's example yet the Father had great advantage of always existing, all knowing etc. Even as you have inferred in a recent post, Jesus was like His Father. I don't know any believer that would deny that. Therefore, your argument that we can not be expected to be like Jesus if He had the advantage of existing in a heavenly body before his birth from Mary is unsound. You have also asked what happened to His memories if He did pre-exist. Well, not only did the Son of God empty Himself and was made in the likeness of men, He was made in the likeness of a baby which has no memory.  So quite likely He also willingly handicapped himself of His previous memory.  You ask but where did His memory go.  I can only suggest that people can have amnesia and their memory doesn't go anywhere, it just isn't accessable to them, yet it often comes back. Phil 2:5-7 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and  being made in the likeness of men. NASU I believe that the Son of God took on extreme handicaps to become like us and He did so willingly to please His Father and perform His function as our redeemer.  If you believe in no pre-existence, then you cannot appreciate the willingness of the Son of God to take on these extreme handicaps for us. It is like us becoming a roach, and willingly so and for the good of the other roaches at that.  Then the other roaches don't believe that we handicapped ourselves greatly to do become like them and totally miss the appreciation for the enormity of the sacrifice. Amazing grace how sweet the sound, that saved a roach like me.   LU Lets look at Philippians 2 (New American Standard Bible) from a functional standpoint. The way the Hebrews wrote and thought. The first verses of this chapter talk of the character God wishes to see in us. Then we are compared to the character of Christ. (There are no punctuations or capitols in the original Greek. So these verses go together.) 5Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, (So here it is important to note that this is something we are to duplicate. We cannot duplicate being in the form of God if that denotes deity or deity made into a man. This introduction specifies the context and what the following verses are about, ATTITUDE) Verse 6   who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. Jesus existed in a form of God. He functioned as God and yet did not take it unto himself for selfish indulgences. He did not equate himself equal to God. (This is also a comparison with the first Adam, who did take unto himself the right to decide what was right or wrong for himself. [knowledge of good and evil]) Jesus was made like a man. Concieved in the womb of Mary. He was created/made a HUMAN. When he was found he looked like a man. Those who saw him saw a man. Not an etherial being of God. This is one reason why the Jews rejected Him. They were looking for a momentous sign and instead got a man in appearance. Jesus even rebuked them for looking for a sign. The burning bush appeared as a burning bush but functioned as God. Even though Jesus  functioned as God with all power in heaven and Earth, He humbled himself to be a servent to His brethren. Even though He had the power and right to preserve His own life, He obeyed God’s wishes unto death. Jesus even said he could call down ten legions of angels but he did not do it. We are all children of God. The difference between us and Jesus is the amount of perfecting we have attained. Jesus was whole and complete. We are not yet there.  Phil 2 is not proof of a preexistant Christ but is an admonition to us to have the same attitude in us that He had. AND THIS PARAGRAPH? —- You have also asked what happened to His memories if He did pre-exist. Well, not only did the Son of God empty Himself and was made in the likeness of men, He was made in the likeness of a baby which has no memory.  So quite likely He also willingly handicapped himself of His previous memory.  You ask but where did His memory go.  I can only suggest that people can have amnesia and their memory doesn't go anywhere, it just isn't accessable to them, yet it often comes back. I have never seen anything so full of speculation in my life. It appears that you have just made up a whole bunch of speculation to lend credence to an otherwise weak stand. More mystery. Hi Martian, Yes Phillipians 2 does speak of us having the same attitude as was in Christ, you are absolutely right but also Phil.2 is about how He gave up His previous existence in the form of God to take on the likeness of man.   Did you exist in the form of God and empty yourself?  So, if not, then Christ was not exactly like you as a man was He? You say that I am speculating about the Son of God's previous memory, true.  However you would have to admit that it is entirely possible for someone to not remember an entire past for a while and then remember it later.  Amnesia is a perfect example of this.  God did design memory after all and can control that, can He not? Again I state that the Father was not exactly like the Son, yet the Son was like the Father.  The Son was not exactly like man, yet man can be like the Son (by the power of the Holy Spirit living and working in him).  Deny that and I believe that you have missed one of the functions of the Son. LU

The term “form” in the greek means the external appearance or how something strikes the eye. Are you saying that Jesus gave up looking like God?

[SEEKING]

Quote (martian @ Jan. 23 2009,08:19)

Jesus never surrendered his position as the image of God. His exact representation. He did not sell his birthright as we have.

That is a foreign “word” as “the word” states “Who, being in very nature God,did not consider equality with God something to be grasped but made himself nothing taking the very nature of a servant,being made in human likeness. (Phil.2:6-7)

That is the expalnation from the Bible and has been offered to you many times. Your personal objections to it will not change it.

You wrote – (As a side note – If Jesus preexisted because He was in the form of God (Phil 2) as some say, then we must have preexisted too, because we are created and have always existed in the form of God.)

Could be – “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.”

At the risk of tedium, man gave up his equality and priviledge to rule over all things in the garden – Christ elected to empty himself and make himself nothing. We start on an even slate -no advantages.

You posed – If Jesus has a method of aquiring perfection not available to me then how can I follow along the same path? The answer is I can’t!

He doesn't and you can't. You and I will all fall short of completing the path and living the perfect life he lived on earth.

[Lightenup]

Martian,
The words “image” and “form” are not the same greek words. Man is not spoken of as being in the “form of God.” That was only applied to Jesus.

The strong's number for the word “form” in Phil. 2:6:
NT:3444

morphe (mor-fay'); perhaps from the base of NT:3313 (through the idea of adjustment of parts); shape; figuratively, nature:

KJV – form.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright  1994, Biblesoft and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

The strong's number for the word “image” in 2 Cor. 4:4:
NT:1504

eikon (i-kone'); from NT:1503; a likeness, i.e. (literally) statue, profile, or (figuratively) representation, resemblance:

KJV – image.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright  1994, Biblesoft and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

You ask if I am saying that Jesus gave up looking like God? Well, I don't know that He looked like His Father but He did look like the Son of His Father and was the exact representation of His Father. I believe that the Son of God changed from a heavenly body to an earthly body and exchanged the glory of one for the glory of the other. That would be fitting with the above definition of “form” as a change of shape.

As a side note here, we are hoping to change from one form to another as we anticipate a new body.
1 Cor 15:50-56

Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, “DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory. 55 ” O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR VICTORY? O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR STING?”
NASU

1 Cor 15:39-41
40 There are also heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is one, and the glory of the earthly is another.
NASU

Christ and man are said to be the image of God. Christ also existed in the form of God, that is not said of man.

LU

[942767]

Hi:

The Apostle Paul was simply teaching the church about humility and using the life of Our Lord Jesus as an example for us to follow. If we are speaking his of humility, then we would be speaking of the authority that Jesus had as God's Only Begotten Son and His Christ, and Jesus not letting his position puff him up, but he humbled himself and became obedient even unto death on the cross.

If God wanted to tell us that Jesus had pre-existed his birth from the virgin Mary, He would have plainly told us that that was the case. He exists now, and he gave his life for us so that whosoever wants to be reconciled to God may do so through his sacrifice.

You can argue your case for pre-existance all you like. You cannot prove it by the scriptures. There is no scriptures or scriptures which state outright that he pre-existed his virgin birth.

You can go on believing this if you like. So what, I guess you discovered some big secret that God has hidden from humanity. What matters is that Jesus was conceived by the Holy Ghost and born of the Virgin Mary, and that he lived and gave his life as a sacrifice so that we could be reconciled to God, and that he conquered death and the grave, and that he is on his throne at the right hand of God, and that he is coming for his church, and that he will judge the quick and the dead.

Marty

[Lightenup]

Hi Marty,
The Son of God showed great humility, you are right Marty. Maybe one day we will all see just how much He has humbled himself and we will be truly broken before Him.
LU

[KangarooJack]

Copied and pasted from the Preexistence thread

Meerkat said:

Quote

Just as the word does not necessarily mean I AM it does not mean to become – it seems to mean {to exist}  – so could either be will exist in the future – or always existing   ( when relating to God it would be always existing as we know he has no beginning or end and is eternal). I do not believe that God became a man  – Jesus says God is a Spirit and seeks worship in Spirit and truth.

Greetings Meerkat,
The fact that God is a spirit would not discount that He could become human for two reasons:
1. Spirit has form or body too. Jesus told the Jews that that they had not seen God's form “You have neither heard His voice or seen His form” (i.e., shape or body).
2. If God has form or body and He shall BECOME what He shall become as He said to Moses, then He can take another form (human) if He so chooses.

Everything has body including spirit. And spirit is that which transcends the natural and not is necessarily that which is totally opposite of the natural. So I ask you what I asked AP:

Do you think that YHWH is limited?

thinker

[NickHassan]

Hi TT,
Why is it relevant what God could do?

[SEEKING]

Quote (942767 @ Jan. 23 2009,15:15)

You can argue your case for pre-existance all you like.  You cannot prove it by the scriptures.  There is no scriptures or scriptures which state outright that he pre-existed his virgin birth. You can go on believing this if you like.  So what,  I guess you discovered some big secret that God has hidden from humanity.   What matters is that Jesus was conceived by the Holy Ghost and born of the Virgin Mary, and that he lived and gave his life as a sacrifice so that we could be reconciled to God, and that he conquered death and the grave, and that he is on his throne at the right hand of God, and that he is coming for his church, and that he will judge the quick and the dead.

Finally! Neither side can be “proven” from the scriptures except in the mind of the pundit.

What the Lord has made clear to me that we believers better wake up to if we want to be examples to the world is this:

Galatians 5:15 (KJV)
But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.

Each of us can, and most likely will, go on believing what we like. But is it Christlike (the example we claim to want to follow) to cast, by innuendo or direct comment, slight on the beliefs of another.

In the fianl analysis these comments are so true:

What matters is that Jesus was conceived by the Holy Ghost and born of the Virgin Mary, and that he lived and gave his life as a sacrifice so that we could be reconciled to God, and that he conquered death and the grave, and that he is on his throne at the right hand of God, and that he is coming for his church, and that he will judge the quick and the dead.

Lest I fall prey to the following, I chose not to be involved in
endless, fruitless discussions that rehash again and again –

Keep reminding them of these things. Warn them before God against quarreling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen. 15 Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth. 16 Avoid godless chatter, because those who indulge in it will become more and more ungodly. (2tIM.2:14-16)

I apply these things only to myself and only post them here as
invitation for consideration as the Lord speaks to each individually.

Seeking

[martian]

I agree with all my heart and always have. From the beginning of this discussion, I have attempted to discuss scripture in light of what God's purposes are. In light of his plan. It seems many are more interested in debating words and greek tenses then they are seeking to work with God in accompishing His plan.
My hope has been to define words in light of God's plan rather then in light of some biased translator. For the most part I have found that we can agree that Jesus is our example and was born on the Earth with the purpose of freeing us from sin and showing (by example) the way to live in harmony with God's plan for us. This truth is so evident in scripture that there is little debate about it. That is the simple gospel. Once that has been established in a believers heart, all their interpretations should fit within that truth. Cutting and pasting from one resorce or another for the purpose of proving our particular bent is true is for the most part a waste of time, but it is the nature of boards like these. I believe we would all be better off if our first test of Bible interpretation is if our conclussions support, defend, clerify and function within that simple gospel. If they do then we are much more likely right the if they do not. God is not the author of confussion. God authored this book we call the Bible. He would not put in it things that would make His gospel plan obscure or unclear.

[martian]

Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 23 2009,09:49)

Martian, The words “image” and “form” are not the same greek words.  Man is not spoken of as being in the “form of God.”  That was only applied to Jesus. The strong's number for the word “form” in Phil. 2:6: NT:3444 morphe (mor-fay'); perhaps from the base of NT:3313 (through the idea of adjustment of parts); shape; figuratively, nature: KJV – form. (Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, Biblesoft and International Bible Translators, Inc.) The strong's number for the word “image” in 2 Cor. 4:4: NT:1504 eikon (i-kone'); from NT:1503; a likeness, i.e. (literally) statue, profile, or (figuratively) representation, resemblance: KJV – image. (Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, Biblesoft and International Bible Translators, Inc.) You ask if I am saying that Jesus gave up looking like God?  Well, I don't know that He looked like His Father but He did look like the Son of His Father and was the exact representation of His Father.  I believe that the Son of God changed from a heavenly body to an earthly body and exchanged the glory of one for the glory of the other.  That would be fitting with the above definition of “form” as a change of shape. As a side note here, we are hoping to change from one form to another as we anticipate a new body. 1 Cor 15:50-56 Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, “DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory. 55 ” O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR VICTORY? O  DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR STING?” NASU 1 Cor 15:39-41 40 There are also heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is one, and the glory of the earthly is another. NASU Christ and man are said to be the image of God.  Christ also existed in the form of God, that is not said of man. LU

For clarity sake – The word translated image in Gen 1 means form. It is a Hebrew word. So according to the Hebrew scriptures, Man was created in the form of God.

[Lightenup]

Martian,
If I were changing the Greek grammar of scripture you would have a leg to stand on with your above discourse. When the original Greek doesn't fit your understanding you just throw it out as biased translation, over and over. You have an understanding, most of the rest of us have different understandings. You call your understanding “God's plan” and then belittle others with words like:

Quote

It seems many are more interested in debating words and greek tenses then they are seeking to work with God in accompishing His plan.

I don't believe that informing how the Greek words are in the active voice or passive voice or how “image” and “form” are different Greek words all together is debating but teaching. It seems that you might have a problem being corrected and yet your preach humility and how we are to have that attitude within ourselves. Unfortunately it is not coming across to me. Sorry.

LU

[Cindy]

Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 23 2009,03:37)

Quote (martian @ Jan. 21 2009,13:50) Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 21 2009,09:21) Martian, The exegesis is not what's broken here that needs fixing, IMO.  Perhaps Christ doesn't need to be exactly like us for us to be like Him.  The Father doesn't need to be exactly like Christ for Christ to be like Him.  See how it works? LU The father is not written of in scripture as our example. Jesus is! For him to be our example he must be like us. This was one of the major purposes for his lfe. Otherwise you place everything that Christ was an example of as speculation. Where does he as an example stop? Again your exegisis clouds the picture. Is he an example of how to treat children? Is he an example of how to pray? Is he an example of how to teach? is he an example of how to interface with God? Is he an example of the resurection of the dead? Is he an example of the hope of glory? Is he an example of the fulfillment of God's plan? Either he is an example in everything He did and was or everything he was and did is subject to speculation. Hi Martian, My point in which you quoted was that the Father was definetly Christ's example yet the Father had great advantage of always existing, all knowing etc. Even as you have inferred in a recent post, Jesus was like His Father. I don't know any believer that would deny that. Therefore, your argument that we can not be expected to be like Jesus if He had the advantage of existing in a heavenly body before his birth from Mary is unsound. You have also asked what happened to His memories if He did pre-exist. Well, not only did the Son of God empty Himself and was made in the likeness of men, He was made in the likeness of a baby which has no memory.  So quite likely He also willingly handicapped himself of His previous memory.  You ask but where did His memory go.  I can only suggest that people can have amnesia and their memory doesn't go anywhere, it just isn't accessable to them, yet it often comes back. Phil 2:5-7 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and  being made in the likeness of men. NASU I believe that the Son of God took on extreme handicaps to become like us and He did so willingly to please His Father and perform His function as our redeemer.  If you believe in no pre-existence, then you cannot appreciate the willingness of the Son of God to take on these extreme handicaps for us. It is like us becoming a roach, and willingly so and for the good of the other roaches at that.  Then the other roaches don't believe that we handicapped ourselves greatly to do become like them and totally miss the appreciation for the enormity of the sacrifice. Amazing grace how sweet the sound, that saved a roach like me.   LU

Kathi! You are so funny!!!!!!! That saved a roach like me? Wow you are humble, you did not look that way tho when you visited me, just kidding. So when are you coming my way again?
Love Irene

[KangarooJack]

Martian said:

Quote

The term “form” in the greek means the external appearance or how something strikes the eye. Are you saying that Jesus gave up looking like God?

Martian,
In John 5:37 Jesus told the unbelieving Jews that they had not “seen” God's form. Yet He told His disciples that they had indeed “seen” the Father. Both unbelieving men as well as believing men had seen the same Christ physically.
Yet the one class saw God while the other did not. Therefore, seeing cannot be that which “strikes the eye”. Seeing then must be with the comprehension.

“No man has seen God at any time, but the only begotten Who is from the Father's side. He has explained Him“, (John 1:18).
Please note the connection between “seeing” and “explaining” in Jesus' words. Then go back to verse 1, “In the beginning was the Word….”

thinker

[martian]

Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 24 2009,02:11)

Martian, If I were changing the Greek grammar of scripture you would have a leg to stand on with your above discourse.  When the original Greek doesn't fit your understanding you just throw it out as biased translation, over and over.  You have an understanding, most of the rest of us have different understandings.  You call your understanding “God's plan”  and then belittle others with words like: Quote It seems many are more interested in debating words and greek tenses then they are seeking to work with God in accompishing His plan. I don't believe that informing how the Greek words are in the active voice or passive voice or how “image” and “form” are different Greek words all together is debating but teaching.  It seems that you might have a problem being corrected and yet your preach humility and how we are to have that attitude within ourselves.  Unfortunately it is not coming across to me.  Sorry. LU

Let me ask you a simple question. What is the purpose of scripture?

[martian]

The problem with your point about tenses and meanings of words is that depending on the translator you can get different meanings and translations. It is very easily provable that many of the translations of scripture have error based on the bias of the translator. For this reason I prefer the test of function rather then trusting in any particular translator. What I mean by function is this —-

First I determine what the purpose of scripture is — To my understanding scripture is the recorded history of God’s dealings with His creation and an outline of his plan and desire for that creation.

Second I determine what is God’s plan for his creation. In this there are several points
1.I assume that God wants me to understand that plan so I can cooperate with Him in achieving it in my life and those whom I can help.
2.Simply put – God desires to have children that are like him. For 5000 years God raised up teachers, prophets and mighty men to be examples to mankind as to what it meant to be human and yet be like Him. These examples culminated in Jesus who was the perfect representation of God. A human being made just like us that fully represented the character and heart of God.
(lightenup – if you disagree that this is God’s plan for man, then we have nothing further to discuss. If you agree then read on –)

From here all of my research and interpretation must stem.
Because I believe God wants me to understand His plan for me, I judge the validity of all translations/translators and resource material based on whether it supports that plan or works against it. It does not matter if it is Vine, A.T. Robertson, Benner, Strong or any other translator, if their interpretation works to complicate, confuse, or nullify the simple plan of God, I can only conclude that they are mistaken. God wants me to understand so I can follow Jesus. He would not include material that would confuse or cloud the plan. He would not force me to speculate on the plan.

You claim that what you post is teaching. What is the end result of your teaching? Does your conclusion/teaching make Jesus a more viable example and one easier to draw hope from or does it bring doubt on whether we can duplicate what Jesus did?

Does your teaching show and give hope that we can grow to a mature man to the full stature of Jesus Christ (as scripture says) or does it leave doubt because we do not know if his pre-existence gave him an ability to be perfected that we do not have?

Does your teaching make Jesus a brother who has gone the same path that is set before us or does it make him some hybrid creature that had an existence before his Earthly birth whose memories and consciousness of that earlier life we cannot account for. Nor can we understand what effect that earlier life had on his Earthly life.

Rather then having a clear example with no loopholes a pre-existent Christ brings everything he did into speculation. It makes our possibility to follow him a matter of guesswork.
Did Jesus overcome sin because he had a pre-
existent life or not?

Was Jesus raised from the dead because He had pre-existence?

You can say that Jesus pre-existence had no effect on his Earthly life, however, your teaching introduces an element of mystery and doubt on the complete humanity/example of Jesus. Instead of man looking at what Jesus did and saying “My brother, who is just like me, did it so I can do it too.” We have “Jesus pre-existed and I do not know how much advantage that gave him, so I am just not sure if I can do what he did”.
Jesus is the hope of mankind —
Tell me which of those statements gives the most hope?

[martian]

One last question that sums up all the others. What fruit does your teacing produce that helps me to fulfill God's plan in my life?

[Lightenup]

Martian,
Good question! Here is some verses answering your question:

2 Tim 3:14-4:5
14 You, however, continue in the things you have learned and become convinced of, knowing from whom you have learned them, 15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; 17 so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.

2 Timothy 4

4:1 “Preach the Word”

I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom: 2 preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, 4 and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths. 5 But you, be sober in all things, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.
NASU

Col 3:12-17

12 So, as those who have been chosen of God, holy and beloved, put on a heart of compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience; 13 bearing with one another, and forgiving each other, whoever has a complaint against anyone; just as the Lord forgave you, so also should you. 14 Beyond all these things put on love, which is the perfect bond of unity. 15 Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, to which indeed you were called in one body; and be thankful. 16 Let the word of Christ richly dwell within you, with all wisdom teaching and admonishing one another with psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with thankfulness in your hearts to God. 17 Whatever you do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks through Him to God the Father.
NASU

The scripture does many things for us as mentioned in the above verses. It also gives us hope, it is a light to our path, it is truth about God, when we hide it in our heart it helps keep us from sin, etc.

LU

[NickHassan]

Lovely work LU

[martian]

Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 24 2009,06:16)

Martian, Good question!  Here is some verses answering your question: 2 Tim 3:14-4:5 14 You, however, continue in the things you have learned and become convinced of, knowing from whom you have learned them,  15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; 17 so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work. 2 Timothy 4 4:1 “Preach the Word” I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom: 2 preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, 4 and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths. 5 But you, be sober in all things, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry. NASU Col 3:12-17 12 So, as those who have been chosen of God, holy and beloved, put on a heart of compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience; 13 bearing with one another, and forgiving each other, whoever has a complaint against anyone; just as the Lord forgave you, so also should you. 14 Beyond all these things put on love, which is the perfect bond of unity. 15 Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, to which indeed you were called in one body; and be thankful. 16 Let the word of Christ richly dwell within you, with all wisdom teaching and admonishing one another with psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with thankfulness in your hearts to God. 17 Whatever you do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks through Him to God the Father. NASU The scripture does many things for us as mentioned in the above verses.  It also gives us hope, it is a light to our path, it is truth about God, when we hide it in our heart it helps keep us from sin, etc. LU

Nice sidestep. The quotes are only applicable to your teaching, if one assumes that your teaching is the truth.
Truly nice sidestep. The casual observer might even read something spiritual into it. The truth is you avoided the question.. I did not ask for an explanation of what biblical teaching produces. I ask you to show me what YOUR teaching produces. If your teaching does not produce what scripture says real teaching will produce, then your teaching must be flawed.

You teach a pre-existent Christ. How does that teaching produce hope or make Christ more of a viable example for the rest of humanity? How does it help me become more like Christ. I want to know how your teaching works/functions.

Did you agree with my outline of God’s plan for man? Oh, I forgot you do not like the term “God’s plan”. Perhaps I should change that to it’s synonym “The gospel;” Do you have a problem with that terminology? Do you agree with my simple description of the gospel? And I quote —
2. Simply put – God desires to have children that are like him. For 5000 years God raised up teachers, prophets and mighty men to be examples to mankind as to what it meant to be human and yet be like Him. These examples culminated in Jesus who was the perfect representation of God. A human being made just like us that fully represented the character and heart of God.

[NickHassan]

Hi Martian,
Of course all the prophets and apostles were only like to God by the anointing of His Spirit and the grace to enable the development of good fruit. Jesus was different as he was filled with the fulness of that spirit such as it could be said God was in him reconciling the world to Himself.

[Author]

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