The Trinity Doctrine

[Proclaimer]

Scripture is clear.

It says that God created the universe 'for' and 'through' Christ/son.

John 1:10
He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him.

1 Corinthians 8:6
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

John 1:3
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.

Colossians 1:15-16
16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities–all things have been created through Him and for Him.

These verses mention Christ or the son, and not the Logos.

No matter how you spin it and say that the Logos is the plan, these verses say 'Christ' or the 'son' and neither of these mean “plan”.

So no excuses please.

God made all things through Christ. The last verse says for and through. So no room for just God creating everything for Christ. You have to also add in 'through' or 'by'.

[SEEKING]

Quote (david @ Jan. 22 2009,14:49)

Quote A. I can see no purpose in Christ having preexistance that would help to fulfill God's plan to make us like Jesus. Does God deal in abstract knowledge without purpose? Martian, the problem with this, is you believe that it is “God's plan to make us [exactly] like Jesus.”  No scripture says this. There is a scripture that says, for  example: “become imitators of God, as beloved children.” (Eph 5:1) And so I could say, with your same reasoning, that I see no purpose for God to be eternal–For, how would that help me to fulfill God's plan to make me like him? So, there is a flaw in your reasoning.  It is this:  Nowhere does any scripture say we are to become exactly like Jesus.  Secondly, how does you not seeing the purpose of something make it conflict with the idea that it could be true? David, I agree, the scriptures do not say that via our human effort (works) and completely perfect understanding we are to become like Jesus. Transforming us as we submit to the Spirit is God's work done in His timing: For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. (Rom.8:29 NIV) And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.(2Cor.3:18 NIV) With the tongue we praise our Lord and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in God's likeness. (Jam.3:9 NIV) All this is from God and has nothing to do with my intellectual understanding. A passage that helps me when I think I am right and all thinking in conflict with mine must be error or incomplete – and that all should conform to my way of thinking are these words from Paul: I care very little if I am judged by you or by any human court; indeed, I do not even judge myself. 4 My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me. 5 Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait till the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of men's hearts. At that time each will receive his praise from God. (1Cor.4:3-5 NIV) Good post, David! Seeking

Quote

A. I can see no purpose in Christ having preexistance that would help to fulfill God's plan to make us like Jesus. Does God deal in abstract knowledge without purpose?

Martian, the problem with this, is you believe that it is “God's plan to make us [exactly] like Jesus.” No scripture says this.
There is a scripture that says, for example:
“become imitators of God, as beloved children.” (Eph 5:1)

And so I could say, with your same reasoning, that I see no purpose for God to be eternal–For, how would that help me to fulfill God's plan to make me like him?

So, there is a flaw in your reasoning. It is this: Nowhere does any scripture say we are to become exactly like Jesus. Secondly, how does you not seeing the purpose of something make it conflict with the idea that it could be true?

David,

I agree, the scriptures do not say that via our human effort (works) and completely perfect understanding we are to become like Jesus.

Transforming us as we submit to the Spirit is God's work done in His timing:

For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. (Rom.8:29 NIV)

And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.(2Cor.3:18 NIV)

With the tongue we praise our Lord and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in God's likeness. (Jam.3:9 NIV)

All this is from God and has nothing to do with my intellectual understanding. A passage that helps me when I think I am right and all thinking in conflict with mine must be error or incomplete – and that all should conform to my way of thinking
are these words from Paul:

I care very little if I am judged by you or by any human court; indeed, I do not even judge myself. 4 My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me. 5 Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait till the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of men's hearts. At that time each will receive his praise from God.
(1Cor.4:3-5 NIV)

Good post, David!

Seeking

[Lightenup]

Quote (martian @ Jan. 21 2009,13:50)

Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 21 2009,09:21) Martian, The exegesis is not what's broken here that needs fixing, IMO.  Perhaps Christ doesn't need to be exactly like us for us to be like Him.  The Father doesn't need to be exactly like Christ for Christ to be like Him.  See how it works? LU The father is not written of in scripture as our example. Jesus is! For him to be our example he must be like us. This was one of the major purposes for his lfe. Otherwise you place everything that Christ was an example of as speculation. Where does he as an example stop? Again your exegisis clouds the picture. Is he an example of how to treat children? Is he an example of how to pray? Is he an example of how to teach? is he an example of how to interface with God? Is he an example of the resurection of the dead? Is he an example of the hope of glory? Is he an example of the fulfillment of God's plan? Either he is an example in everything He did and was or everything he was and did is subject to speculation.

Hi Martian,
My point in which you quoted was that the Father was definetly Christ's example yet the Father had great advantage of always existing, all knowing etc. Even as you have inferred in a recent post, Jesus was like His Father. I don't know any believer that would deny that.

Therefore, your argument that we can not be expected to be like Jesus if He had the advantage of existing in a heavenly body before his birth from Mary is unsound.

You have also asked what happened to His memories if He did pre-exist. Well, not only did the Son of God empty Himself and was made in the likeness of men, He was made in the likeness of a baby which has no memory. So quite likely He also willingly handicapped himself of His previous memory. You ask but where did His memory go. I can only suggest that people can have amnesia and their memory doesn't go anywhere, it just isn't accessable to them, yet it often comes back.

Phil 2:5-7
Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.
NASU

I believe that the Son of God took on extreme handicaps to become like us and He did so willingly to please His Father and perform His function as our redeemer. If you believe in no pre-existence, then you cannot appreciate the willingness of the Son of God to take on these extreme handicaps for us.

It is like us becoming a roach, and willingly so and for the good of the other roaches at that. Then the other roaches don't believe that we handicapped ourselves greatly to do become like them and totally miss the appreciation for the enormity of the sacrifice.

Amazing grace how sweet the sound, that saved a roach like me.

LU

[martian]

Quote (SEEKING @ Jan. 22 2009,09:16)

Martian, I am not sure how you interjected your transition from “secret things” to mystery.  No where in my response do I see that I said anything about my salvation in Christ being mysterious or a mystery to me.  It is a certainty not a mystery. There is no longer “mystery” about salvation in Christ- Ephes. 3:4-6 (KJV)   Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)  Which iEphes. 3:6 (KJV)   That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel: n other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; I praise God that He holds back nothing from anyone He callsregarding salvation.   Seeking

I was not speaking of your salvation. I was speaking to the board in general about the perfecting process or the plan of God for that process. salvation is only the beginning step in that process.

[martian]

Quote (david @ Jan. 22 2009,14:49)

Quote A. I can see no purpose in Christ having preexistance that would help to fulfill God's plan to make us like Jesus. Does God deal in abstract knowledge without purpose? Martian, the problem with this, is you believe that it is “God's plan to make us [exactly] like Jesus.”  No scripture says this. There is a scripture that says, for  example: “become imitators of God, as beloved children.” (Eph 5:1) And so I could say, with your same reasoning, that I see no purpose for God to be eternal–For, how would that help me to fulfill God's plan to make me like him? So, there is a flaw in your reasoning.  It is this:  Nowhere does any scripture say we are to become exactly like Jesus.  Secondly, how does you not seeing the purpose of something make it conflict with the idea that it could be true?

8″There are sixty queens and eighty concubines,
And maidens without number;
9But my dove, my perfect one, is unique:
She is her mother's only daughter;
She is the pure child of the one who bore her
The maidens saw her and called her blessed,
The queens and the concubines also, and they praised her, saying,
10'Who is this that grows like the dawn,
As beautiful as the full moon,
As pure as the sun,
As awesome as an army with banners?'

Secondly — I should have put my response in question form. Tell me the purpose of your conclussuin

[martian]

Quote (martian @ Jan. 23 2009,03:49)

Quote (david @ Jan. 22 2009,14:49) Quote A. I can see no purpose in Christ having preexistance that would help to fulfill God's plan to make us like Jesus. Does God deal in abstract knowledge without purpose? Martian, the problem with this, is you believe that it is “God's plan to make us [exactly] like Jesus.”  No scripture says this. There is a scripture that says, for  example: “become imitators of God, as beloved children.” (Eph 5:1) And so I could say, with your same reasoning, that I see no purpose for God to be eternal–For, how would that help me to fulfill God's plan to make me like him? So, there is a flaw in your reasoning.  It is this:  Nowhere does any scripture say we are to become exactly like Jesus.  Secondly, how does you not seeing the purpose of something make it conflict with the idea that it could be true? 8″There are sixty queens and eighty concubines,         And maidens without number;    9But my dove, my perfect one, is unique:         She is her mother's only daughter;         She is the pure child of the one who bore her         The maidens saw her and called her blessed,         The queens and the concubines also, and they praised her, saying,    10'Who is this that grows like the dawn,         As beautiful as the full moon,         As pure as the sun,         As awesome as an army with banners?' Secondly — I should have put my response in question form. Tell me the purpose of your conclussuin

Sorry I pasted the wrong page —-

“Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect

So what does it mean to be perfect like our Father? Thankfully we have been given a perfect example of what it means to be human and yet perfect like the Father is perfect.

If humanity is to be equal to the father in perfection and Jesus is the example he gives us of that perfection, then we should be just like Jesus. As you put it – exactly like Jesus.

From a prophetic standpoint we can go to the Song of Solomon. The shulemite is a type of the bride of Christ. See what God says about her.
Chapter 5
2″I was asleep but my heart was awake.
A voice! My beloved was knocking:
'Open to me, my sister, my darling,
My dove, my perfect one!
For my head is drenched with dew,
My locks with the damp of the night.'

Chapter 6
8″There are sixty queens and eighty concubines,
And maidens without number;
9But my dove, my perfect one, is unique:
She is her mother's only daughter;
She is the pure child of the one who bore her
The maidens saw her and called her blessed,
The queens and the concubines also, and they praised her, saying,
10'Who is this that grows like the dawn,
As beautiful as the full moon,
As pure as the sun,
As awesome as an army with banners?'

The word for perfect here is TM which means complete or whole. One who is mature, undefiled, perfect and upright and whole.

[martian]

Quote (SEEKING @ Jan. 23 2009,01:52)

Quote (david @ Jan. 22 2009,14:49) Quote A. I can see no purpose in Christ having preexistance that would help to fulfill God's plan to make us like Jesus. Does God deal in abstract knowledge without purpose? Martian, the problem with this, is you believe that it is “God's plan to make us [exactly] like Jesus.”  No scripture says this. There is a scripture that says, for  example: “become imitators of God, as beloved children.” (Eph 5:1) And so I could say, with your same reasoning, that I see no purpose for God to be eternal–For, how would that help me to fulfill God's plan to make me like him? So, there is a flaw in your reasoning.  It is this:  Nowhere does any scripture say we are to become exactly like Jesus.  Secondly, how does you not seeing the purpose of something make it conflict with the idea that it could be true? David, I agree, the scriptures do not say that via our human effort (works) and completely perfect understanding we are to become like Jesus. Transforming us as we submit to the Spirit is God's work done in His timing: For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. (Rom.8:29 NIV) And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.(2Cor.3:18 NIV) With the tongue we praise our Lord and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in God's likeness. (Jam.3:9 NIV) All this is from God and has nothing to do with my intellectual understanding.  A passage that helps me when I think I am right and all thinking in conflict with mine must be error or incomplete – and that all should conform to my way of thinking are these words from Paul: I care very little if I am judged by you or by any human court; indeed, I do not even judge myself. 4 My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me. 5 Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait till the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of men's hearts. At that time each will receive his praise from God. (1Cor.4:3-5 NIV) Good post, David! Seeking Quote A. I can see no purpose in Christ having preexistance that would help to fulfill God's plan to make us like Jesus. Does God deal in abstract knowledge without purpose? Martian, the problem with this, is you believe that it is “God's plan to make us [exactly] like Jesus.”  No scripture says this. There is a scripture that says, for  example: “become imitators of God, as beloved children.” (Eph 5:1) And so I could say, with your same reasoning, that I see no purpose for God to be eternal–For, how would that help me to fulfill God's plan to make me like him? So, there is a flaw in your reasoning.  It is this:  Nowhere does any scripture say we are to become exactly like Jesus.  Secondly, how does you not seeing the purpose of something make it conflict with the idea that it could be true? David, I agree, the scriptures do not say that via our human effort (works) and completely perfect understanding we are to become like Jesus. Transforming us as we submit to the Spirit is God's work done in His timing: For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. (Rom.8:29 NIV) And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.(2Cor.3:18 NIV) With the tongue we praise our Lord and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in God's likeness. (Jam.3:9 NIV) All this is from God and has nothing to do with my intellectual understanding.  A passage that helps me when I think I am right and all thinking in conflict with mine must be error or incomplete – and that all should conform to my way of thinking are these words from Paul: I care very little if I am judged by you or by any human court; indeed, I do not even judge myself. 4 My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me. 5 Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait till the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of men's hearts. At that time each will receive his praise from God. (1Cor.4:3-5 NIV) Good post, David! Seeking

I never said a single thing about doing it in our own strength. What I said was that we are to be perfect like Jesus. There is a process we must go through to be perfected and that all of scripture is for the purpose of supporting that process. When we translate a scripture whose conclussion hinders that overall plan it must be wrong.

[martian]

Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 23 2009,03:37)

Quote (martian @ Jan. 21 2009,13:50) Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 21 2009,09:21) Martian, The exegesis is not what's broken here that needs fixing, IMO.  Perhaps Christ doesn't need to be exactly like us for us to be like Him.  The Father doesn't need to be exactly like Christ for Christ to be like Him.  See how it works? LU The father is not written of in scripture as our example. Jesus is! For him to be our example he must be like us. This was one of the major purposes for his lfe. Otherwise you place everything that Christ was an example of as speculation. Where does he as an example stop? Again your exegisis clouds the picture. Is he an example of how to treat children? Is he an example of how to pray? Is he an example of how to teach? is he an example of how to interface with God? Is he an example of the resurection of the dead? Is he an example of the hope of glory? Is he an example of the fulfillment of God's plan? Either he is an example in everything He did and was or everything he was and did is subject to speculation. Hi Martian, My point in which you quoted was that the Father was definetly Christ's example yet the Father had great advantage of always existing, all knowing etc. Even as you have inferred in a recent post, Jesus was like His Father. I don't know any believer that would deny that. Therefore, your argument that we can not be expected to be like Jesus if He had the advantage of existing in a heavenly body before his birth from Mary is unsound. You have also asked what happened to His memories if He did pre-exist. Well, not only did the Son of God empty Himself and was made in the likeness of men, He was made in the likeness of a baby which has no memory.  So quite likely He also willingly handicapped himself of His previous memory.  You ask but where did His memory go.  I can only suggest that people can have amnesia and their memory doesn't go anywhere, it just isn't accessable to them, yet it often comes back. Phil 2:5-7 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and  being made in the likeness of men. NASU I believe that the Son of God took on extreme handicaps to become like us and He did so willingly to please His Father and perform His function as our redeemer.  If you believe in no pre-existence, then you cannot appreciate the willingness of the Son of God to take on these extreme handicaps for us. It is like us becoming a roach, and willingly so and for the good of the other roaches at that.  Then the other roaches don't believe that we handicapped ourselves greatly to do become like them and totally miss the appreciation for the enormity of the sacrifice. Amazing grace how sweet the sound, that saved a roach like me.   LU

Lets look at Philippians 2 (New American Standard Bible) from a functional standpoint. The way the Hebrews wrote and thought.
The first verses of this chapter talk of the character God wishes to see in us. Then we are compared to the character of Christ.
(There are no punctuations or capitols in the original Greek. So these verses go together.)

5Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus,
(So here it is important to note that this is something we are to duplicate. We cannot duplicate being in the form of God if that denotes deity or deity made into a man. This introduction specifies the context and what the following verses are about, ATTITUDE)

Verse 6
who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

Jesus existed in a form of God. He functioned as God and yet did not take it unto himself for selfish indulgences. He did not equate himself equal to God. (This is also a comparison with the first Adam, who did take unto himself the right to decide what was right or wrong for himself. [knowledge of good and evil]) Jesus was made like a man. Concieved in the womb of Mary. He was created/made a HUMAN. When he was found he looked like a man. Those who saw him saw a man. Not an etherial being of God. This is one reason why the Jews rejected Him. They were looking for a momentous sign and instead got a man in appearance. Jesus even rebuked them for looking for a sign.

The burning bush appeared as a burning bush but functioned as God. Even though Jesus functioned as God with all power in heaven and Earth, He humbled himself to be a servent to His brethren. Even though He had the power and right to preserve His own life, He obeyed God’s wishes unto death. Jesus even said he could call down ten legions of angels but he did not do it.

We are all children of God. The difference between us and Jesus is the amount of perfecting we have attained. Jesus was whole and complete. We are not yet there. Phil 2 is not proof of a preexistant Christ but is an admonition to us to have the same attitude in us that He had.

AND THIS PARAGRAPH? —-
You have also asked what happened to His memories if He did pre-exist. Well, not only did the Son of God empty Himself and was made in the likeness of men, He was made in the likeness of a baby which has no memory. So quite likely He also willingly handicapped himself of His previous memory. You ask but where did His memory go. I can only suggest that people can have amnesia and their memory doesn't go anywhere, it just isn't accessable to them, yet it often comes back.

I have never seen anything so full of speculation in my life. It appears that you have just made up a whole bunch of speculation to lend credence to an otherwise weak stand. More mystery.

[KangarooJack]

Greetings Christian friends,
I have perused your posts that speak to the issue of being made into the image of Christ. I think you all tend to ride on the wrong track. According to Paul the process of being made into Christ's image involved the transformation from the letter of the law to the spirit of the law. The letter of the law is called the “image of Moses” and the spirit of the law is called the “image of Christ” (2 Corinthians 3:4-17).

Therefore, to be in the image of Christ is to live in the full realization that you are no longer under the letter of the law, that is Moses. You are under the rule of the spirit of the law now.

To the extent that you live according to the letter is the extent that you are in the image of Moses. And to the extent that you live according to the spirit of the law is the extent you have been made into the image of Christ.

Being made into the image of Christ has absolutely nothing to do with sinless perfection. But it has everything to do with going on to the “perfection” of always living in the spirit of the law.

thinker

[SEEKING]

Quote (martian @ Jan. 23 2009,03:51)

The word for perfect here is TM which means complete or whole. One who is mature, undefiled, perfect and upright and whole.

Matthew 5:48 (KJV)
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

teleios, tel'-i-os; from Greek (telos); complete (in various applications of labor, growth, mental and moral character, etc.); neuter (as noun, with Greek (ho)) completeness :- of full age, man, perfect.

Paul writes about time of maturity and immaturity and expalins when we will reach completeness and know as we are known,
1Cor.13:9-12. His point is that we will see dimly (less than perfect) until that which is perfect comes. Then and only the will we see face to face. Until then all our knowing will be partial.

If having an advantage negates someones ability to be an example, we have no examples. As has been pointed out,
the Father is to be followed as an example – how would that be fair? Paul said follow his example but he had a unique conversion experience – again unfair according to your logic.
Then we have OT example written for our learning. One could again contend that they had some advantage.

It seems the point of departure here is thatno one can be an example if they have a greater capacity to attain. It only makes sense that they must have some advantage over me, be it only tenacity, to be my example. Other wise we would be equals looking to others to be our mutual example.

Seeking

[KangarooJack]

Seeking said:

Quote

…the Father is to be followed as an example…

Seeking,
How is the Father an example to us seeing that He did not live among us???

thinker

[NickHassan]

Hi,
What God sees when He looks at His reborn sons who abide in His Son and his teachings is Christ and he cannot judge Christ.

Lk15
” 22But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet: “

We need that robe of righteousness because we have none of our own.

2 Corinthians 6:7
By the word of truth, by the power of God, by the armour of righteousness on the right hand and on the left,

Ephesians 6:14
Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;

Philippians 3:9
And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

[Lightenup]

Quote (martian @ Jan. 22 2009,12:16)

Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 23 2009,03:37) Quote (martian @ Jan. 21 2009,13:50) Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 21 2009,09:21) Martian, The exegesis is not what's broken here that needs fixing, IMO.  Perhaps Christ doesn't need to be exactly like us for us to be like Him.  The Father doesn't need to be exactly like Christ for Christ to be like Him.  See how it works? LU The father is not written of in scripture as our example. Jesus is! For him to be our example he must be like us. This was one of the major purposes for his lfe. Otherwise you place everything that Christ was an example of as speculation. Where does he as an example stop? Again your exegisis clouds the picture. Is he an example of how to treat children? Is he an example of how to pray? Is he an example of how to teach? is he an example of how to interface with God? Is he an example of the resurection of the dead? Is he an example of the hope of glory? Is he an example of the fulfillment of God's plan? Either he is an example in everything He did and was or everything he was and did is subject to speculation. Hi Martian, My point in which you quoted was that the Father was definetly Christ's example yet the Father had great advantage of always existing, all knowing etc. Even as you have inferred in a recent post, Jesus was like His Father. I don't know any believer that would deny that. Therefore, your argument that we can not be expected to be like Jesus if He had the advantage of existing in a heavenly body before his birth from Mary is unsound. You have also asked what happened to His memories if He did pre-exist. Well, not only did the Son of God empty Himself and was made in the likeness of men, He was made in the likeness of a baby which has no memory.  So quite likely He also willingly handicapped himself of His previous memory.  You ask but where did His memory go.  I can only suggest that people can have amnesia and their memory doesn't go anywhere, it just isn't accessable to them, yet it often comes back. Phil 2:5-7 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and  being made in the likeness of men. NASU I believe that the Son of God took on extreme handicaps to become like us and He did so willingly to please His Father and perform His function as our redeemer.  If you believe in no pre-existence, then you cannot appreciate the willingness of the Son of God to take on these extreme handicaps for us. It is like us becoming a roach, and willingly so and for the good of the other roaches at that.  Then the other roaches don't believe that we handicapped ourselves greatly to do become like them and totally miss the appreciation for the enormity of the sacrifice. Amazing grace how sweet the sound, that saved a roach like me.   LU Lets look at Philippians 2 (New American Standard Bible) from a functional standpoint. The way the Hebrews wrote and thought. The first verses of this chapter talk of the character God wishes to see in us. Then we are compared to the character of Christ. (There are no punctuations or capitols in the original Greek. So these verses go together.) 5Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, (So here it is important to note that this is something we are to duplicate. We cannot duplicate being in the form of God if that denotes deity or deity made into a man. This introduction specifies the context and what the following verses are about, ATTITUDE) Verse 6   who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. Jesus existed in a form of God. He functioned as God and yet did not take it unto himself for selfish indulgences. He did not equate himself equal to God. (This is also a comparison with the first Adam, who did take unto himself the right to decide what was right or wrong for himself. [knowledge of good and evil]) Jesus was made like a man. Concieved in the womb of Mary. He was created/made a HUMAN. When he was found he looked like a man. Those who saw him saw a man. Not an etherial being of God. This is one reason why the Jews rejected Him. They were looking for a momentous sign and instead got a man in appearance. Jesus even rebuked them for looking for a sign. The burning bush appeared as a burning bush but functioned as God. Even though Jesus  functioned as God with all power in heaven and Earth, He humbled himself to be a servent to His brethren. Even though He had the power and right to preserve His own life, He obeyed God’s wishes unto death. Jesus even said he could call down ten legions of angels but he did not do it. We are all children of God. The difference between us and Jesus is the amount of perfecting we have attained. Jesus was whole and complete. We are not yet there.  Phil 2 is not proof of a preexistant Christ but is an admonition to us to have the same attitude in us that He had. AND THIS PARAGRAPH? —- You have also asked what happened to His memories if He did pre-exist. Well, not only did the Son of God empty Himself and was made in the likeness of men, He was made in the likeness of a baby which has no memory.  So quite likely He also willingly handicapped himself of His previous memory.  You ask but where did His memory go.  I can only suggest that people can have amnesia and their memory doesn't go anywhere, it just isn't accessable to them, yet it often comes back. I have never seen anything so full of speculation in my life. It appears that you have just made up a whole bunch of speculation to lend credence to an otherwise weak stand. More mystery.

Hi Martian,
Yes Phillipians 2 does speak of us having the same attitude as was in Christ, you are absolutely right but also Phil.2 is about how He gave up His previous existence in the form of God to take on the likeness of man.

Did you exist in the form of God and empty yourself? So, if not, then Christ was not exactly like you as a man was He?

You say that I am speculating about the Son of God's previous memory, true. However you would have to admit that it is entirely possible for someone to not remember an entire past for a while and then remember it later. Amnesia is a perfect example of this. God did design memory after all and can control that, can He not?

Again I state that the Father was not exactly like the Son, yet the Son was like the Father. The Son was
not exactly like man, yet man can be like the Son (by the power of the Holy Spirit living and working in him). Deny that and I believe that you have missed one of the functions of the Son.

LU

[KangarooJack]

LightenUp said to Martian:

Quote

You have also asked what happened to His memories if He did pre-exist. Well, not only did the Son of God empty Himself and was made in the likeness of men, He was made in the likeness of a baby which has no memory.

Good stuff!
YHWH said to Moses, “I shall BECOME what I shall BECOME” (Exodus 3:14).

thinker

[david]

Quote

If humanity is to be equal to the father in perfection and Jesus is the example he gives us of that perfection, then we should be just like Jesus. As you put it – exactly like Jesus.

Martian, even if we were to be “exactly” like Jesus, from this point on, or from some future point on, what does that have to do with the past?

You have not explained that. We are not to live his life, to die for humankind, etc. We are not Jesus.
Us imitating his qualities, etc——-what does that have to do with whether or not he pre-existed.

It's just as with us imitating God. What does that have to do with whether he has always existed?

The two are not connected, or at least, you have not shown how they are connected.

[SEEKING]

Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 23 2009,05:08)

How is the Father an example to us seeing that He did not live among us???

Thinker,

I will not cite scripture as I am sure you will recall their content, however, the Bible tells us much about the character of God. He is love, just, justifier, giving -etal.

These are examples of His nature that we can emulate giving Him glory and honor.

Seeking

[martian]

Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 23 2009,05:58)

Quote (martian @ Jan. 22 2009,12:16) Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 23 2009,03:37) Quote (martian @ Jan. 21 2009,13:50) Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 21 2009,09:21) Martian, The exegesis is not what's broken here that needs fixing, IMO.  Perhaps Christ doesn't need to be exactly like us for us to be like Him.  The Father doesn't need to be exactly like Christ for Christ to be like Him.  See how it works? LU The father is not written of in scripture as our example. Jesus is! For him to be our example he must be like us. This was one of the major purposes for his lfe. Otherwise you place everything that Christ was an example of as speculation. Where does he as an example stop? Again your exegisis clouds the picture. Is he an example of how to treat children? Is he an example of how to pray? Is he an example of how to teach? is he an example of how to interface with God? Is he an example of the resurection of the dead? Is he an example of the hope of glory? Is he an example of the fulfillment of God's plan? Either he is an example in everything He did and was or everything he was and did is subject to speculation. Hi Martian, My point in which you quoted was that the Father was definetly Christ's example yet the Father had great advantage of always existing, all knowing etc. Even as you have inferred in a recent post, Jesus was like His Father. I don't know any believer that would deny that. Therefore, your argument that we can not be expected to be like Jesus if He had the advantage of existing in a heavenly body before his birth from Mary is unsound. You have also asked what happened to His memories if He did pre-exist. Well, not only did the Son of God empty Himself and was made in the likeness of men, He was made in the likeness of a baby which has no memory.  So quite likely He also willingly handicapped himself of His previous memory.  You ask but where did His memory go.  I can only suggest that people can have amnesia and their memory doesn't go anywhere, it just isn't accessable to them, yet it often comes back. Phil 2:5-7 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and  being made in the likeness of men. NASU I believe that the Son of God took on extreme handicaps to become like us and He did so willingly to please His Father and perform His function as our redeemer.  If you believe in no pre-existence, then you cannot appreciate the willingness of the Son of God to take on these extreme handicaps for us. It is like us becoming a roach, and willingly so and for the good of the other roaches at that.  Then the other roaches don't believe that we handicapped ourselves greatly to do become like them and totally miss the appreciation for the enormity of the sacrifice. Amazing grace how sweet the sound, that saved a roach like me.   LU Lets look at Philippians 2 (New American Standard Bible) from a functional standpoint. The way the Hebrews wrote and thought. The first verses of this chapter talk of the character God wishes to see in us. Then we are compared to the character of Christ. (There are no punctuations or capitols in the original Greek. So these verses go together.) 5Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, (So here it is important to note that this is something we are to duplicate. We cannot duplicate being in the form of God if that denotes deity or deity made into a man. This introduction specifies the context and what the following verses are about, ATTITUDE) Verse 6   who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. Jesus existed in a form of God. He functioned as God and yet did not take it unto himself for selfish indulgences. He did not equate himself equal to God. (This is also a comparison with the first Adam, who did take unto himself the right to decide what was right or wrong for himself. [knowledge of good and evil]) Jesus was made like a man. Concieved in the womb of Mary. He was created/made a HUMAN. When he was found he looked like a man. Those who saw him saw a man. Not an etherial being of God. This is one reason why the Jews rejected Him. They were looking for a momentous sign and instead got a man in appearance. Jesus even rebuked them for looking for a sign. The burning bush appeared as a burning bush but functioned as God. Even though Jesus  functioned as God with all power in heaven and Earth, He humbled himself to be a servent to His brethren. Even though He had the power and right to preserve His own life, He obeyed God’s wishes unto death. Jesus even said he could call down ten legions of angels but he did not do it. We are all children of God. The difference between us and Jesus is the amount of perfecting we have attained. Jesus was whole and complete. We are not yet there.  Phil 2 is not proof of a preexistant Christ but is an admonition to us to have the same attitude in us that He had. AND THIS PARAGRAPH? —- You have also asked what happened to His memories if He did pre-exist. Well, not only did the Son of God empty Himself and was made in the likeness of men, He was made in the likeness of a baby which has no memory.  So quite likely He also willingly handicapped himself of His previous memory.  You ask but where did His memory go.  I can only suggest that people can have amnesia and their memory doesn't go anywhere, it just isn't accessable to them, yet it often comes back. I have never seen anything so full of speculation in my life. It appears that you have just made up a whole bunch of speculation to lend credence to an otherwise weak stand. More mystery. Hi Martian, Yes Phillipians 2 does speak of us having the same attitude as was in Christ, you are absolutely right but also Phil.2 is about how He gave up His previous existence in the form of God to take on the likeness of man.   Did you exist in the form of God and empty yourself?  So, if not, then Christ was not exactly like you as a man was He? You say that I am speculating about the Son of God's previous memory, true.  However you would have to admit that it is entirely possible for someone to not remember an entire past for a while and then remember it later.  Amnesia is a perfect example of this.  God did design memory after all and can control that, can He not? Again I state that the Father was not exactly like the Son, yet the Son was like the Father.  The Son was not exactly like man, yet man can be like the Son (by the power of the Holy Spirit living and working in him).  Deny that and I believe that you have missed one of the functions of the Son. LU

The entie context is about attitude. You cannot stop the context mid sentence because your teaching needs proof.
Phil 2 is a direct corelation between the first Adam and the Second Adam. While the first dought to meet his own needs. The second always sought to follow His fathers guidence. The first Adam was in a form of God (in the image of God) So was the second. Jesus did not want to die. That;s what all the prayers in the garden are about. He could have chosen to not give his life. He said He could call down legions of angels. His attitude remained the same to obey his father. This is the attitude we are to have.

[NickHassan]

Hi Martian,
Do you suggest it was by nature or by the Spirit of Grace that Jesus imaged his Father?

[martian]

Seeking —
You said –
“f having an advantage negates someones ability to be an example, we have no examples. As has been pointed out,
the Father is to be followed as an example – how would that be fair?

Reply –
You are right. It would be unfair to expect us to be perfected with only the law and OT understanding. In fact scripture says that no one can be perfected by the law. This is exactly why there had to be an example given that we could follow. A man made like his brethren in every way, tempted like all men, born to a woman, and yet perfect in character, attitude, obedience ect.

You say –
Paul said follow his example but he had a unique conversion experience – again unfair according to your logic.

Reply –
Paul’s conversion was certainly dramatic, but the process was still the same. He has an experience in which Jesus reveals himself to him and forgives his sins. In truth all conversions are unique in many ways. Those things which bring us to Christ. The sins we ask for forgivness of ect ect.

You say –
Then we have OT example written for our learning. One could again contend that they had some advantage.

Reply –
I dare say we have the advantage over the OT saints. Their examples of Kings, prophets and leaders were all flawed and imperfect examples. We have the perfect example.

You say-
It seems the point of departure here is thatno one can be an example if they have a greater capacity to attain. It only makes sense that they must have some advantage over me, be it only tenacity, to be my example. Other wise we would be equals looking to others to be our mutual example.”

Reply –
Jesus was the forerunner. He went first. He has completed his perfecting process. We are those who come after and look to Jesus for the path and guidance to duplicate his character in us. If Jesus has a method of aquiring perfection not available to me then how can I follow along the same path? The answer is I can’t!

[martian]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 23 2009,07:15)

Hi Martian, Do you suggest it was by nature or by the Spirit of Grace that Jesus imaged his Father?

In Gen 1:27 God creates man in his own image.
The Hebrew word for image is TsLM and means an outline or representation of an original as a shadow is the outline of the original. In the noun form, as it is in this verse, it means An image or form of something.
According to Gen 1:27 we are created in the form of God.
(As a side note – If Jesus preexisted because He was in the form of God (Phil 2) as some say, then we must have preexisted too, because we are created and have always existed in the form of God.)

Jesus never surrendered his position as the image of God. His exact representation. He did not sell his birthright as we have.

[Author]

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