The Trinity Doctrine

[SEEKING]

Martian,

Q. Do you believe Jesus existed in some conscious state before his birth to mary?

A. Not physical or earthly consciousness. But in a spiritual sense he apparently had existence with the father that I surely do not completely understand (John 17:5 (KJV) And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Then there is this passage, addressed to Yahweh, applied to the son -Hebrews 1:10 (KJV) And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:

Q. If so, What happened to the experiances and memories when he became an infant on Earth?

A. I have no idea what he recalled as an infant – but apparently some memories were still resident, according to the above passages, and recalled in adulthood.

Q. Did this preexistance influince his ability to be perfected?

A. In human form he had to yet be perfected (Heb.2:10). Being in our likeness (Phil.2:7) he had to undergo the same perfecting and learning process that we must experience.
He grew in wisdom and stature an in favor with God and men
(Lk.2:52). Hebrews 5:8-9 (KJV) Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him…

Do you have a different, perhaps clearer understanding?

Seeking

[martian]

Seeking —

Let me say something about the exegesis of scripture.
A few decades back scientists faced a dilemma. From the physics that they knew at the time bumblebees could not possible fly. That possibility simply did not fit within the physical laws and universe that they knew. YET. Bumbles bees continued to fly. It was not until later that scientist’s knowledge of physics expanded and could explain this paradox.
The universe in which we as Christians exist revolves and is centered around God’s plan for His creation/mankind. This is the law of God’s universe. Any exegesis from the book about that universe must exist within the over all law of God’s universe. Any words used for explanation/description of Christ must function to support and promote the plan for God’s universe for which that book was written.
Regardless of the “proof” we have, if it hinders God’s plan it must be false.
I would like to answer your questions from a standpoint of function within God’s plan.

Q. Do you believe Jesus existed in some conscious state before his birth to mary?

A. Not physical or earthly consciousness. But in a spiritual sense he apparently had existence with the father that I surely do not completely understand (John 17:5 (KJV) And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Reply —
Firstly, there are two ways to look at this verse. If I were to put money or possession aside for my children, prior to their birth, they could easily say that they had it long before. As I have stated in previous posts. God has always had a plan for the redemption of man through His son. The glory was set in place long before the event took place. Jesus had that glory set aside for him from the beginning.

Then there is this passage, addressed to Yahweh, applied to the son -Hebrews 1:10 (KJV) And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:

Q. If so, What happened to the experiances and memories when he became an infant on Earth?

A. I have no idea what he recalled as an infant – but apparently some memories were still resident, according to the above passages, and recalled in adulthood.

Reply —
Consider that your present take on Christ relies heavily on things you cannot explain. There is a certain amount of the mysterious involved and yet in order for God’s plan to be completed in us this needs be the most clear understanding of all.
If you or I were to have real experience and were actually in the full presence of or mutual father in heaven, prior to our birth, don’t you think it would be easier to walk with God once we were born on Earth? Would this not give Jesus real advantage in all of his struggles to be perfected? An advantage the rest of humanity does not have and if that is true, how can he be an accurate example for us?
I do not think God would allow anyone to have the excuse that they could not be like Jesus because he had the advantage of being with God and caries those experiences and memories after He was born on Earth.
Either Jesus is the perfect unquestioned example for humanity or he is not. There is no middle ground.

Q. Did this preexistance influince his ability to be perfected?

A. In human form he had to yet be perfected (Heb.2:10). Being in our likeness (Phil.2:7) he had to undergo the same perfecting and learning process that we must experience.
He grew in wisdom and stature an in favor with God and men
(Lk.2:52). Hebrews 5:8-9 (KJV) Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him…

Reply —
Again If as we agree Jesus is the perfect example for humanity, then he can have no advantage over the rest of humanity in how he was perfected.

The first and foremost test of any exegesis of scripture is it’s ability to further the over all plan of God. If it works against the clear plan of God it must be false.

Although it may be argued that Jesus had an advantage because he was personally taught by YHWH from birth, we also have an advantage of having him as an example and the safety of being able to fail, be forgiven and continue onto perfection. Jesus could not fail even once without upsetting the plan of God.

There is no scripture that states clearly how Mary became pregnant. Was there a consciousness that was Jesus that was transferred to Mary’s womb from some preexistance? I believe that to be speculation.

What is man? Does man’s body have animation in and of itself?
In the accounts of Mary’s inpregnation we see that the holy spirit over shadowed her and she was found to be with child of the holy spirit.
When on studies the words from a hebrew perspective
Holy means set aside for a special purpose and Spirit means breath or wind. So what gives a soul life?
The source of man’s animation and soul is God’s breath.

Gen 2:7 Then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

“Being” can also be translated soul.

Even man’s body comes indirectly from God in that it comes from the matter that God created.

Consider these verses. —
Gen 7
21All flesh that moved on the earth perished, birds and cattle and beasts and every swarming thing that swarms upon the earth, and all mankind;

22of all that was on the dry land, all in whose nostrils was the breath of the spirit of life, died.

23Thus He blotted out every living thing that was upon the face of the land, from man to animals to creeping things and to birds of the sky, and they were blotted out from the earth; and only Noah was left, together with those that were with him in the ark.

Job 7
7″Remember that my life is but breath;
My eye will not again see good.

Job 27
3For as long as life is in me,
And the breath of God is in my nostrils,

Job 33
4″The Spirit of God has made me,
And the breath of the Almighty gives me life.
5″Refute me if you can;
Array yourselves before me, take your stand.
6″Behold, I belong to God like you;
I too have been formed out of the clay.
7″Behold, no fear of me should terrify you,
Nor should my pressure weigh heavily on you.

Psalms 135
15The idols of the nations are but silver and gold,
The work of man's hands.
16They have mouths, but they do not speak;
They have eyes, but they do not see;
17They have ears, but they do not hear,
Nor is there any breath at all in their mouths.
(no breath in Idols because they are not alive)

Isa 42
5Thus says God the LORD,
Who created the heavens and stretched them out,
Who spread out the earth and its offspring,
Who gives breath to the people on it
And spirit to those who walk in it,

Eze 37
8And I looked, and behold, sinews were on them, and flesh grew and skin covered them; but there was no breath in them.

Rev 11
11But after the three and a half days, the breath of life from God came into them, and they stood on their feet; and great fear fell upon those who were watching them.

Jesus was given life by the breath of God, just like us.

[Lightenup]

Hello,

In regards to the “I had with you” in John 17:5
5 “Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
NASU

The greek word for “had” is written in the active voice showing that the subject actively “had” the glory and not passively “had” the glory, therefore the subject existed in an living form that could actively have glory, not like a plan which would passively have the promise of future glory.

Thanks,
LU

[NickHassan]

Hi Martian,
Good stuff.
But the man Jesus Christ had unique origins that a human body does not preclude.

[martian]

Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 21 2009,05:42)

Hello, In regards to the “I had with you” in John 17:5 5 “Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.   NASU The greek word for “had” is written in the active voice showing that the subject actively “had” the glory and not passively “had” the glory, therefore the subject existed in an living form that could actively have glory, not like a plan which would passively have the promise of future glory. Thanks, LU

It is still no relavent because no mater the exegesis. If it makes Jesus different then normal humanity it does not fit within the plan of God and is therefore false.

[martian]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 21 2009,06:08)

Hi Martian, Good stuff. But the man Jesus Christ had unique origins that a human body does not preclude.

So are you saying that Jesus was like the rest of humanity only in his human body?

[NickHassan]

Hi martian,
Scripture tells us he was a man.
I believe it and I know how scripture shows a man to be.
Adam was a man too though his origins were vastly different from yours and mine.

[Lightenup]

Martian,
The exegesis is not what's broken here that needs fixing, IMO. Perhaps Christ doesn't need to be exactly like us for us to be like Him. The Father doesn't need to be exactly like Christ for Christ to be like Him. See how it works?

LU

[SEEKING]

Martian,

I like your Bumble Bee example. It proves that Scientists, Philosophers, and Theologians – among others – do not know Gods ways. No wonder God wrote:

Deut. 29:29 (KJV)
The secret things belong unto the Lord our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.

and

Isaiah 29:14 (KJV)
Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, even a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid.

and

Isaiah 55:8 (KJV)
For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.

I am satisfied to know that I have a Savior and Lord who loved me enough to give his life that I might have life. He had no advantage in following the road to perfection because that love caused him to empty himself of any advantage and become flrsh and blood just like me –

Philip. 2:6-11 (KJV)
Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. [9] Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: [10] That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; [11] And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

I am so thankful that having the right answers gains me nothing, having the right savior gains me everything “and” gives glory to the Father.

Someone omce said, ” no Religion has it all right and no religion has it all wrong.” Perhaps the quicker we concede that the better off we will be. Cicumlocution is the tool of Satan!

Seeking

[david]

Quote

A few decades back scientists faced a dilemma. From the physics that they knew at the time bumblebees could not possible fly. That possibility simply did not fit within the physical laws and universe that they knew.

Actually, this is a myth.. It was a good story, one that the media and general public liked.

Here is the origin:
http://www.math.niu.edu/~rusin/known-math/98/bees

'J McMasters states that the story was prevalent in the German technical
universities in the 1930's, starting with students of the aerodynamicist,
Ludwig Prandtl at Gottingen. The story goes that a noted Swiss
aerodynamicist, whom McMasters does not name, was talking to a biologist at
dinner. The biologist asked about the flight of bumble bees and the Swiss
gentleman did a “back-of-the-napkin” calculation of the kind I described
earlier, assuming a rigid smooth wing an so on. Of course he found that
there was insufficient lift and went off to find out the correct answer.
In the meantime, the biologist put the work around that bees could not
fly, presumably to show that nature was greater than engineering, and the
media picked up the story. The truth, then as now, wasn't newsworthy, so a
correction was never publicized'

[martian]

Quote (david @ Jan. 21 2009,12:03)

Quote A few decades back scientists faced a dilemma. From the physics that they knew at the time bumblebees could not possible fly. That possibility simply did not fit within the physical laws and universe that they knew. Actually, this is a myth.. It was a good story, one that the media and general public liked. Here is the origin: http://www.math.niu.edu/~rusin/known-math/98/bees 'J McMasters states that the story was prevalent in the German technical universities in the 1930's, starting with students of the aerodynamicist, Ludwig Prandtl at Gottingen. The story goes that a noted Swiss aerodynamicist, whom McMasters does not name, was talking to a biologist at dinner. The biologist asked about the flight of bumble bees and the Swiss gentleman did a “back-of-the-napkin” calculation of the kind I described earlier, assuming a rigid smooth wing an so on. Of course he found that there was insufficient lift and went off to find out the correct answer.    In the meantime, the biologist put the work around that bees could not fly, presumably to show that nature was greater than engineering, and the media picked up the story. The truth, then as now, wasn't newsworthy, so a correction was never publicized'

I was not speaking of that example, but thanks for the quote

[martian]

Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 21 2009,09:21)

Martian, The exegesis is not what's broken here that needs fixing, IMO.  Perhaps Christ doesn't need to be exactly like us for us to be like Him.  The Father doesn't need to be exactly like Christ for Christ to be like Him.  See how it works? LU

The father is not written of in scripture as our example. Jesus is! For him to be our example he must be like us. This was one of the major purposes for his lfe. Otherwise you place everything that Christ was an example of as speculation. Where does he as an example stop? Again your exegisis clouds the picture.
Is he an example of how to treat children?
Is he an example of how to pray?
Is he an example of how to teach?
is he an example of how to interface with God?
Is he an example of the resurection of the dead?
Is he an example of the hope of glory?
Is he an example of the fulfillment of God's plan?

Either he is an example in everything He did and was or everything he was and did is subject to speculation.

[martian]

Let me try to explain one more time. The God of the Judeo/Christian faith is functional and his plan for mankind is a reflection of that functionality. The problem is that most of Christianity has become scriptural and doctrinal and left functional far behind.
The gospel is really very simple. God created human children that are to grow to have His character and be like Him. The very word for “son” in Hebrew means offspring who is like his father. To fulfill our calling to be sons of God we are to become like our father.
Everything that has happened in history and is recorded in scripture is for the purpose of furthering that simple plan. God’s personal interaction with men, the prophets, kings, apostles, teachers and Jesus himself lived for that purpose. Jesus is the center pin of that plan. Everything God has done revolves around Jesus. Jesus is the first to fulfill that plan. He opened the door for the rest of us. He is the first fruits of all of mankind. Jesus was the first to have God’s character perfected in himself. Prophecy foretold this very clearly. In Isa 9:6 the Hebrew word for “name” is “shem” and means character or reputation.

6For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us;
And the government will rest on His shoulders;
And His character (name) will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.

This understanding is carried out in the New testament. Matthew which was originally written in Hebrew speaks of it very clearly. The Hebrews called things by virtue of their function rather then their appearance. When they saw someone functioning as God they called it God.
” BEHOLD, THE VIRGIN SHALL BE WITH CHILD AND SHALL BEAR A SON, AND THEY SHALL CALL HIS Character (NAME) IMMANUEL,” which translated means, ” GOD WITH US.”
The character of God was with them
The crowds going ahead of Him, and those who followed, were shouting,”Hosanna to the Son of David; BLESSED IS HE WHO COMES IN THE Character (NAME) OF THE LORD;Hosanna in the highest!”.

The word/name “Jesus” is not a magic mantra to be tagged on the end of a prayer. When Jesus says to pray in His name or go in His name or do anything in His name he is speaking of doing those things with the same character as he had i.e.; the character of YHWH, his Father.
Once a Christian has that understanding of the plan for humanity understanding scripture is much easier. We can use exegesis, translations, quote “so called “ experts and do mental exercises over and over again, but if the conclusions from all of this study do ANYTHING to hinder that simple plan they MUST BE FALSE. The reason for this is very simple — God would not have recorded it in scripture if it worked against His plan. God is not the author of confusion.
The primary test for all conclusions drawn from scripture is Does it work to support God and His plan? This understanding is made clear in the Hebrew word enumah often translated faith. Which means to support and take action toward the will of God. The word does not put the responsibility on God to take action, but puts the responsibility on the person with faith to act. It does not mean believing that God will act, but rather that the one with faith will take action to support what God is doing. Unfortunately many Christians are more interested in supporting their pet doctrines then supporting God and his plan.
The logos is God’s expressed idea as fulfilled in Christ. The fulfillment of God’s plan. The exact representation of God. Representing the completed character of YHWH in a human being. Jesus is the plan AS ARE WE! When one teaches doctrines or interprets scripture that clouds this simple concept or can only be described by referring to some mystery we cannot understand, one should beware.
Here are a few questions I would ask about exegesis/teaching/doctrines presented to me.
1.How does this teaching support God’s plan for me?
2.Does this teaching make Jesus a clearer example for me or make his example harder to comprehend/follow?
3.Does this teaching bring into question the character of God?

Exegesis of scripture is of no use whatsoever if it does not support what God wants to do with His creation.

[martian]

Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 21 2009,09:21)

Martian, The exegesis is not what's broken here that needs fixing, IMO.  Perhaps Christ doesn't need to be exactly like us for us to be like Him.  The Father doesn't need to be exactly like Christ for Christ to be like Him.  See how it works? LU

Secondly, —
Let me ask a few questions of your teaching —
1.How does this teaching support God’s plan for me?

A. I can see no purpose in Christ having preexistance that would help to fulfill God's plan to make us like Jesus. Does God deal in abstract knowledge without purpose?

2.Does this teaching make Jesus a clearer example for me or make his example harder to comprehend/follow?

A. Obviously it clouds the example of Jesus in speculation. When we read something that Jesus did, we have to ask, Was that something he did to be an example for us or was it something he brought along from some mystical preexistant state? In fact it draws into question the very nature of Jesus. If Jesus existed in some conscious preesistant state, what happened to his memories and experiances from that time. Did God wipe his memory or kill that Jesus in order to birth a new one? it is mystery piled upon mystery. How can we follow a mystery?

3.Does this teaching bring into question the character of God?

A. God commands us to follow the example of Jesus and yet shrouds that example in mystery and speculation. Does this fit with the character of a fair and just God?

[martian]

Quote (SEEKING @ Jan. 21 2009,10:26)

Martian, I like your  Bumble Bee example.  It proves that Scientists, Philosophers, and Theologians – among others – do not know Gods ways.  No wonder God wrote: Deut. 29:29 (KJV)      The secret things belong unto the Lord our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law. and Isaiah 29:14 (KJV)      Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, even a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid. and Isaiah 55:8 (KJV)      For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord. I am satisfied to know that I have a Savior and Lord who loved me enough to give his life that I might have life.  He had no advantage in following the road to perfection because that love caused him to empty himself of any advantage and become flrsh and blood just like me – Philip. 2:6-11 (KJV)      Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:  And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. [9] Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: [10] That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; [11] And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. I am so thankful that having the right answers gains me nothing, having the right savior gains me everything “and” gives glory to the Father. Someone omce said, ” no Religion has it all right and no religion has it all wrong.”  Perhaps the quicker we concede that the better off we will be.  Cicumlocution is the tool of Satan! Seeking

I prefer to have a solid foundation of truth rather then one in which I must believe a mystery.
The concept of believing in a mystery is not only dysfunctional, but also unbiblical. In order for us to become like Christ, it is imparitive that we understand His being and how He did what He did.
If a person claims their beliefs to be true and yet says they are a mystery, then they do not know what they believe. How can you have faith in what you do not know?
God desires us to know Him and His son Jesus Christ.
Ephesians 1:17
that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of Him.

Ephesians 4:13
until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ.

Colossians 1:10
so that you will walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, to please Him in all respects, bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God;

2 Peter 1:2
Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord;

Hosea 6:6
For I delight in loyalty rather than sacrifice,And in the knowledge of God rather than burnt offerings.

Hosea 8:2
They cry out to Me,”My God, we of Israel know You!”

There are many mysterious things in the Bible, but God wants them revealed to His children and has revealed them already. God and Christ are not supposed to be a mystery to the people of God.
God’s nature is to reveal Himself to mankind. He is a revealer of mysteries.
Here is what the Bible says about the mysteries of God:
Job. 12:22 He reveals the deep things of darkness and brings deep shadows into the light.
Dan. 2:29 and 30+47 “As you were lying there, O king, your mind turned to things to come, and the revealer of mysteries showed you what is going to happen. 30 As for me, this mystery has been revealed to me, not because I have greater wisdom than other living men, but so that you, O king, may know the interpretation and that you may understand what went through your mind.
47 The king said to Daniel, “Surely your God is the God of gods and the Lord of kings and a revealer of mysteries, for you were able to reveal this mystery.”

Mtt. 13:11 (Mk. 4:11, Lk. 8:10)
To followers of Christ, Jesus says -11He replied, “The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them.

Jn. 16:25 25″These things I have spoken to you in figurative language; an hour is coming when I will no longer speak to you in figurative language, but will tell you plainly of the Father.
Rom. 16:25 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages past,

26but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith;
I Cor. 2:7-16 7but we speak God's wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory;

8the wisdom which none of the rulers of this age has understood; for if they had understood it they would not have crucified the Lord of glory;

9but just as it is written,
“THINGS WHICH EYE HAS NOT SEEN AND EAR HAS NOT HEARD,
AND which HAVE NOT ENTERED THE HEART OF MAN,
ALL THAT GOD HAS PREPARED FOR THOSE WHO LOVE HIM.”

10For to us God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God.

11For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God.

12Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God,

13which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words.

14But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.

15But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no one.

16For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, THAT HE WILL INSTRUCT HIM? But we have the mind of Christ.
I Cor. 4:1 1Let a man regard us in this manner, as servants of Christ and stewards of the mysteries of God.
Eph. 1:9 9He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him

10with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him
Eph. 3:2-5, 9-11 2if indeed you have heard of the stewardship of God's grace which was given to me for you;

3that by revelation there was made known to me the mystery, as I wrote before in brief.

4By referring to this, when you read you can understand my insight into the mystery of Christ,

5which in other generations was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit;

9and to bring to light what is the administration of the mystery which for ages has been hidden in God who created all things;

10so that the manifold wisdom of God might now be made kn
own through the church to the rulers and the authorities in the heavenly places.

11This was in accordance with the eternal purpose which He carried out in Christ Jesus our Lord,

Eph. 6:19 19and pray on my behalf, that utterance may be given to me in the opening of my mouth, to make known with boldness the mystery of the gospel,
Col. 1:25-27 25Of this church I was made a minister according to the stewardship from God bestowed on me for your benefit, so that I might fully carry out the preaching of the word of God,

26that is, the mystery which has been hidden from the past ages and generations, but has now been manifested to His saints,

27to whom God willed to make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.
Col. 2:2-3 2that their hearts may be encouraged, having been knit together in love, and attaining to all the wealth that comes from the full assurance of understanding, resulting in a true knowledge of God's mystery, that is, Christ Himself,

3in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.
Col. 4:3-4 3praying at the same time for us as well, that God will open up to us a door for the word, so that we may speak forth the mystery of Christ, for which I have also been imprisoned;

4that I may make it clear in the way I ought to speak.
I Tim. 3:16Mystery of Godliness, not mystery of God. 16By common confession, great is the mystery of godliness:
He who was revealed in the flesh,
Was vindicated in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Proclaimed among the nations,
Believed on in the world,

How can we posses truth if it's still a mystery? If you don't know it it can't set you free. God has clearly revealed His mystery of Christ so that we can follow Him.

[NickHassan]

Hi martian,
Was the plan of God with God or did God have a plan.
Is functional just another word for logical as the ways of God are above those of men?

Isaiah 55:8
For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.

Isaiah 55:9
For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

God was with men-in Christ.
God did indeed visit His people-in Christ.
Jesus did reveal the character of God because God was in him.

Jn14
8Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.

9Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?

10Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

11Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

[SEEKING]

Martian,

I am not sure how you interjected your transition from “secret
things” to mystery. No where in my response do I see that I said anything about my salvation in Christ being mysterious or a mystery to me. It is a certainty not a mystery.

There is no longer “mystery” about salvation in Christ- Ephes. 3:4-6 (KJV) Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) Which iEphes. 3:6 (KJV)
That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
n other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

I praise God that He holds back nothing from anyone He callsregarding salvation.

Seeking

[david]

Quote

A. I can see no purpose in Christ having preexistance that would help to fulfill God's plan to make us like Jesus. Does God deal in abstract knowledge without purpose?

Martian, the problem with this, is you believe that it is “God's plan to make us [exactly] like Jesus.” No scripture says this.
There is a scripture that says, for example:
“become imitators of God, as beloved children.” (Eph 5:1)

And so I could say, with your same reasoning, that I see no purpose for God to be eternal–For, how would that help me to fulfill God's plan to make me like him?

So, there is a flaw in your reasoning. It is this: Nowhere does any scripture say we are to become exactly like Jesus. Secondly, how does you not seeing the purpose of something make it conflict with the idea that it could be true?

[NickHassan]

Hi david,
Not exactly but
1 John 3:2
Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
1Cor 15
47The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

48As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

49And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

[david]

Hi Nick.
Which scripture that you quoted disagreed with anything I said?

Or which scripture that you quoted show that some are to be exactly like Jesus?

[Author]

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