The Trinity Doctrine

[martian]

Perhaps you should brace yourself, because you are dangerously close to falling into the same trap as the Jews of Jesus time. They constantly rejected Jesus, claiming that this was a man (human) that blasphemes. Even in the midst of mighty miracles and proofs they could not see how a man (human) could be the Messiah. I can imagine them after the crucification gloating in self righteousness that they had proven their point that He was just a man they could kill and therefore could never be their Messiah. Even though the scriptures stated very clearly that the messiah would come out from among them and be a descendent of David. (Human)

2 Corinthians 4:4 — The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
Notice the use of the term “Christ”. Christ means the anointed one. Dose a God need an anointing? Here we have Christ an annointed human who is the image of God.

The prophet Isaiah spoke a great deal about the Messiah, and he tells us how Yeshua gained His vast Knowldge. “Yeshayahu 50:4-The Lord GOD hath given me the tongue of the learned, that I should know how to speak a word in season to him that is weary: he wakeneth morning by morning, he wakeneth mine ear to hear as the learned.” Because He was human, He had to undergo the same learning process we all had to experience. In those days it was the father’s responsibility to teach his son. God the Father, according to Yeshayahu was fulfilling His responsibility to His son. Yeshua’s teacher was the God of heaven and earth. So when the time of Yeshua suffering came, He was already prepared for it. Yeshayahu 50:5- The Lord GOD hath opened mine ear, and I was not rebellious, neither turned away back. 6-I gave my back to the smiters, and my cheeks to them that plucked off the hair: I hid not my face from shame and spitting. 7- For the Lord GoD will help me; therefore shall I not be confounded: therefore have I set my face like a flint, and I know that I shall not be ashamed. Yeshua was a man under authority. He knew at an early age who He was and the position He held. So He set His face like a flint to perform the task laid out for Him. How could Yeshua be rebellious against Himself or turn away from himself?

Yeshua confirmed what Yeshayahu prophesied about Him: Yochanan 12:49-For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. 50-And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

So Yeshua didn’t only die for the sins of the world, He didn’t only die for your and my sin, He also died to glorify God the Father. So the dilemma God had was not how to get sinners to receive a Holy God, but rather His dilemma was how does a holy God accept this world full of sinners?

Is Jesus the Father? No, not in the sense of being the same person as Almighty God (Who is the Father), but, Jesus is the “express image of His (the Father's) person”. In this way, Jesus is the same as His Father, in the same way we would say of a human father and his son, “he is just like, or, the same as his father”. “When you see him (the human son), you see his father.” They are not the same person, but, the way the son acts, the things he does, are the same things his father does, even though it may not be to the same capacity in all aspects. They are one, in complete union (agreement), in what they do.
Again this completely fits the way Hebrews think. Thinking Hebrew it is easy to see that Christ oneness with God was of relationship and function not of number. The human Christ worked in partnership with Yahweh to do the work of salvation. This also explains Genesis 1/26. Yahweh, speaking outside of our time frame, speaks to Jesus in the future and proclaims that they would make man in their own image and likeness. We were created in th image of God . Not physically but in the real parts that are eternal, the free will, emotional structure and reasoning capacity. With the death and resurection of Christ and through Him we can grow into His likeness of God in Character. Christ’s character is like God’s and He is our patern.

Now consider the following —

Col. 1:19, states “For it pleased the Father that in Him [Jesus] all fullness should dwell”.

Col. 2:9, says “For in Him [Jesus] dwells all the fullness of the Godhead [deity] bodily”.

Then, look at what Eph. 3:19 says, “to know the love of Christ which passes knowledge; that you [humans, Christians] may be filled with all the fullness of God”.

We see it stated that Jesus had “all the fullness” and also, that Christians may be filled with “all the fullness”. How can “all the fullness” be in more than one being? The fact is that these Scriptures are talking about the “quality” of what is able to be there, and not “quantity”. In otherwords it is a quality of relationship and functionality we are to seek. Because Jesus was fully human he prayed that we have the same quality of relationship with Yahweh as he. “Father as you and I are one (in relationship) make them one with us (in relationship)”

Now, in 1 Cor. 8:6, Paul says “But for us there is only one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by Him.”

Also, in 1 Tim. 2:5 Paul writes, “There is one God [the Father], and one mediator between God [the Father] and men, the Man Christ Jesus”.
As stated before the word for man in this context is “anthropos” (Gr.) which can have only one meaning HUMAN!

From the above and other Scripture, it is clear there is only one being that is God, the Father, and a different being that is called Jesus, the Christ, the Son of God, and that they are completely different beings, but one in unity of purpose and character.

Some other Scriptures for consideration of what is stated above are:

Mark 13:32 – [Jesus does not know everything the Father knows] – “But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.”

John 10:29 – “MY FATHER, which gave them me, IS GREATER THAN ALL; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.”

John 14:28 – “Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: FOR MY FATHER IS GREATER THAN I.”

John 20:17 – “Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto MY FATHER AND YOUR FATHER; and to MY GOD, AND YOUR GOD.”

John 17:3 – [Jesus is speaking to the Father] – “And this is life eternal, that they might know THEE THE ONLY TRUE GOD and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.”

Romans 15:6 – “That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify GOD, EVEN THE FATHER OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST.”

1 Cor. 3:23 – “And ye are Christ's; and CHRIST IS GOD'S.”

1 Cor. 11:3 – “But I would have you know that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and THE HEAD OF CHRIST IS GOD.”

1 Cor 15:24-28 – “Then cometh the end, when he [Jesus] shall have delivered up the kingdom to GOD; EVEN THE FATHER; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, THEN SHALL THE SON ALSO HIMSELF BE SUBJECT UNTO HIM THAT PUT ALL THINGS UNDER HIM, THAT GOD MAY BE ALL IN ALL.”

2 Cor 1:3 – Blessed be GOD, EVEN THE FATHER OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort;”

2 Cor 11:31 – “The GOD AND FATHER OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST, which is blessed for evermore, knoweth that I lie not.”

Eph 1:3 – “Blessed be the GOD AND FATHER OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ;

Eph 1:17 – “that the GOD OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST, THE FATHER OF GLORY, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:”

Eph 4:4-6 – “There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, ONE GOD AND FATHER OF ALL, WHO IS ABOVE ALL, and through all, and in you all.”

1 Thes 3:13 – “to the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before GOD, EVEN OUR FATHER, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.”

2 Thes 2:16 – “Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and GOD, EVEN OUR FATHER, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,”

James 3:9 – “Therewith bless we GOD, EVEN THE FATHER; and therewith curse we men which are made after the similitude of God.”

1 Pet 1:2-3 – “Elect according to the forknowledge of GOD THE FATHER, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. Blessed be THE GOD AND FATHER OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,”

2 John 3 – “Grace be with you, mercy, and peace, from GOD THE FATHER, AND FROM THE LORD JESUS CHRIST, THE SON OF THE FATHER, in truth and love.”

Do you believe the Holy Scriptures are the only sufficient rule of faith and practice, and that from the Scriptures all doctrine should come? if so, then you have a decision to make. Will you believe the Scriptures, or the traditions of men that read their traditions into the Scriptures instead of reading their doctrines out of the Scriptures?

Jesus was God's perfect human representative. Though he was completely human (Philippians 2:5-8), there was no evil in him (1 Peter 2:21-24). Though he was temptable (Matthew 4:1-11; 16:21-23), he never rebelled against God (Hebrews 4:14,15).

John 8:28-29 So Jesus said, “When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and I do nothing on My own initiative, but I speak these things as the Father taught Me. (29) And He who sent Me is with Me, He has not left me alone, for I always do the things that are pleasing to Him.”
Jesus does not say He is Yahweh, He says Yahweh is with Him and why? Because He always does the things that please Yahweh. This opens the door for us to have Yahweh with us in the same way if we do the things which please Him.

John 12:48,49 “He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day. For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak.”

John 14:10 “Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works.”
As stated before the fullness of God dweelt in Him and can in us.

John 14:23,24 Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father's who sent Me.”

No incident in Jesus' life so clearly and definitely demonstrates God's sovereignty in Jesus' life as did his Gethsemane prayers. His Gethsemane experience surrounding and involving those prayers is recorded in Matthew 26:36-46, Mark 14:32-42, and Luke 22:39-46. These accounts document Jesus' emotional and obvious human mindset during his prayers prior to his betrayal. Depending on the translation read, these words and phrases are used: “exceedingly sorrowful, even unto death”; “crushed with horror and sadness to the point of death”; “terrible pain and agony”; “…heart ready to break with grief”; “sadness and distress came over him”; “soul overwhelmed with sorrow”; “grief and anguish came over him.”

There was no joy in his experiences from his betray to his death. While many forces worked in Jesus producing agony and grief, clearly one of those forces was his desire to avoid death. From a normal “human” perspective, Jesus wanted to live. He knew God's power: “…all things are possible for You; remove this cup from me…” (Mark 14:36). An only son of his heavenly Father prayed, “Do not let this happen to me!” A son [who did precisely what his heavenly Father willed in his life] prayed, “Remove me from this death experience!”

Never had surrendering to God's will grieved Jesus as did dying. Previously he wanted to do the things God wanted done, but he did not want to die. Obviously his human will and God's divine will were in conflict. The critical issue: whose will was dominate? Was God truly sovereign over Jesus? Years later, referring to this experience, the person who wrote Hebrews noted, “Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered. And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation…” (Hebrews 5:8,9). It was critical that Jesus surrender himself to God's sovereignty in death.

We have no trouble relating to his grief and agony in his Gethsemane experience. We have trouble relating to his surrender to God's sovereignty. Though he asked for the removal of “the cup” more than once, he ended each prayer in the same way: “Nevertheless not as I will, but as You will” (Matthew 26:29). Even though it caused Jesus enormous grief and agony, God's will was sovereign in his life–even if God's will meant his death!

God's will was absolutely sovereign in Jesus. Jesus trusted God's sovereignty enough to die. Jesus trusted God's sovereignty enough to enter the realm of the dead. Jesus trusted God's sovereignty enough to trust God to resurrect him from the realm of the dead. Jesus trusted God's sovereignty enough to trust God to enthrone him as Lord and Christ [our mediator] at God's right hand. How wonderfull would it be if our acceptance and confidence in God's sovereignty had the level of trust in it that was found and required in Jesus! As a man, His faith in God's will was enormous!

One more scriptural truth for you to consider. Jesus constantly calls himself the “Son of Man”. He also calls himself the descendent of David again indicating his HUMAN herritage. Yet scripture says the following – Numbers 23/16 Then the Lord met Balaam and put a word in his mouth and said, “Return to Balik and thus you shall speak” Numbers 23/19
“God is not a man that He should lie, Nor a son of man that He should repent.”
Yahweh clearly states that He is not a man or a son of Man. You cannot ignor clear scripture for the sake of some tradition.

Jesus is the patern son. He is the same in character as Yahweh because no sin seperated Him from having all that Yahweh had for Him. Because of His great love for His brethren, He paid for our sins so there would be no seperation for us and works in partnership with his Father Yahweh to make us like Yahweh in our character. We are to become like Jesus. In order to do this He must be human or the comparison is invalid. Without Jesus’ humanity God’s plan is lost.

[NickHassan]

Hi martian,
He became like the Father because the spirit of the Father lived in him and led him. We should follow him

Matthew 10:20
For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.

[942767]

Hi Martian:

Thanks for your posts. Anybody seeking the truth should be able to find it in what you have written.

God Bless you and your family.
Love in Christ, Marty

[Lightenup]

Hi Martian,
Just want to interject something here. The logos of John 1:1 “was with” God in an active voice not a passive voice. Do you understand the difference. It has to do with Greek grammar. A plan doesn't do an action but is passive and acted upon. The verb “was” here, is written in an active voice and not a passive voice. Therefore, logos in this verse does not represent a “plan.”
Thanks,
LU

[Lightenup]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 18 2009,13:52)

Hi martian, He became like the Father because the spirit of the Father lived in him and led him.  We should follow him Matthew 10:20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.

Hi Nick,
Where does it say that Jesus “became” like His Father? And, when was He not like His Father? Do you have scripture?

Thanks, LU

[martian]

Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 19 2009,06:47)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 18 2009,13:52) Hi martian, He became like the Father because the spirit of the Father lived in him and led him.  We should follow him Matthew 10:20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you. Hi Nick, Where does it say that Jesus “became” like His Father?  And, when was He not like His Father?  Do you have scripture? Thanks, LU

The Father is perfect —- Jesus was perfected by what he suffered.
The Father has always had all authority — Jesus was given all authority
The father has all wisdom — Jeus grew in wisdom and stature

[NickHassan]

Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 19 2009,06:47)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 18 2009,13:52) Hi martian, He became like the Father because the spirit of the Father lived in him and led him.  We should follow him Matthew 10:20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you. Hi Nick, Where does it say that Jesus “became” like His Father?  And, when was He not like His Father?  Do you have scripture? Thanks, LU

Hi LU,
Jesus did not manifest the nature and abilities of his father God till he was anointed at the Jordan.

Acts 10
38How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

He then produced all the fruits of his Father's Spirit
22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

23Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

24And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

25If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

He also produced all the gifts of that Spirit
1Cor12
4Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.

5And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.

6And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.

7But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

8For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

9To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

10To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

11But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

12For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.

13For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

All this was of God in him.

[Not3in1]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 19 2009,08:29)

Jesus did not manifest the nature and abilities of his father God till he was anointed at the Jordan.

Hi Nick,

Actually, we might be assuming that Jesus didn't manifest the nature of his father? And on what basis would we do this? Because nothing is written about it?

Aren't we told that the books could not contain everything that Jesus said and did? Perhaps this also includes his upbrining along the way? We don't know…. Perhaps he did indeed manifest the nature of his father from birth?

[NickHassan]

Hi not3,
What we need to know if how we can follow him. The same anointing is available to us to produce the same fruit and gifts. We cannot be changed except by that anointing with the Spirit of life.

[SEEKING]

I simply believe what John wrote as “his” definition for “logos” without attempting to change the meaning in any other usage
biblical or otherwise.

You speak of “my doctrine” which leads me to believe you think I hold Trinitarian convictions. I do not! I see Jesus as
god to the extent that all power has been given to him on heaven and earth, Mt.18:20. He can do all the things God can do but only to the extent that it is the will of the Father.
It is to this will that Jesus said he is subject, Jn.5:30.

He is much like Joseph of whom it was said, only in the throne will I be greater than thou, Gen.41:40. Pharoah always was
the grantor and Joseph was always to him. Jesus is and always will be subservient to God. It is this understanding that allows me to interpret Jn.1:1 for what it says. I struggled with the Trinitarian doctrine for quite some time because it contradicts to many scriptures. But I believe it Biblical to see Jesus in the light I described.

You have yet to address my question:

So you really believe it was a “statement or idea” that became flesh, dwelt among us, had glory to behold, and was the only begotten of the father, do you!

Concern yourself no further as I will not communicate with someone who questions my intergrity and sincerity in “Seeking” for answers. A condescending judgmental spirit has no place here. Your comments reflect it all –

“Funny you do not seem to be seeking anything other then what you have already found and decided upon.”

“(which you ignor) amd thousands of times in Greek literature of the time. (which you ignor)AND the only authority you have for such a change is your preconcieved idea of doctrine. You have found a difficult or ambigous scripture and forced a meaning out of it that fits what you aready believe rather then seeking the real meaning of the verse.”

Blessings!

[942767]

Quote (SEEKING @ Jan. 19 2009,10:43)

I simply believe what John wrote as “his” definition for “logos” without attempting to change the meaning in any other usage biblical or otherwise. You speak of “my doctrine” which leads me to believe you think I hold Trinitarian convictions.  I do not!  I see Jesus as god to the extent that all power has been given to him on heaven and earth, Mt.18:20.  He can do all the things God can do but only to the extent that it is the will of the Father. It is to this will that Jesus said he is subject, Jn.5:30. He is much like Joseph of whom it was said, only in the throne will I be greater than thou, Gen.41:40.  Pharoah always was the grantor and Joseph was always  to him.  Jesus is and always will be subservient to God.  It is this understanding that allows me to interpret Jn.1:1 for what it says.  I struggled with the Trinitarian doctrine for quite some time because it contradicts to many scriptures.  But I believe it Biblical to see Jesus in the light I described. You have yet to address my question: So you really believe it was a “statement or idea” that became flesh, dwelt among us, had glory to behold, and was the only begotten of the father, do you! Concern yourself no further as I will not communicate with someone who questions my intergrity and sincerity in “Seeking” for answers.  A condescending judgmental spirit has no place here.  Your comments reflect it all –   “Funny you do not seem to be seeking anything other then what you have already found and decided upon.”   “(which you ignor) amd thousands of times in Greek literature of the time. (which you ignor)AND the only authority you have for such a change is your preconcieved idea of doctrine. You have found a difficult or ambigous scripture and forced a meaning out of it that fits what you aready believe rather then seeking the real meaning of the verse.”   Blessings!

The plan or idea was to make man in his own image and with this to make every thing that He created with him in mind as His heir.

Quote

n 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. Gen 1:27 So God created man in his [own] image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Quote

Jhn 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made

Quote

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence. Col 1:19 For it pleased [the Father] that in him should all fulness dwell

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Lightenup @ Jan. 19 2009,06:45)

Hi Martian, Just want to interject something here.  The logos of John 1:1 “was with” God in an active voice not a passive voice.  Do you understand the difference.  It has to do with Greek grammar. A plan doesn't do an action but is passive and acted upon.  The verb “was” here, is written in an active voice and not a passive voice.  Therefore, logos in this verse does not represent a “plan.” Thanks, LU

Thanks for your insights LU.

[Not3in1]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 19 2009,09:25)

Hi not3, What we need to know if how we can follow him. The same anointing is available to us to produce the same fruit and gifts. We cannot be changed except by that anointing with the Spirit of life.

I agree insofar as we need the annointing to be able to follow him. But no annointing will make us the only begotten Son of God. That position and person is already taken.

I love the saying: Be yourself. Everyone else is already taken!

Jesus didn't need to qualify to have that position with the Father. He did receive the Spirit “without measure” the bible tells us. We on the other hand, only see in part.

[Tiffany]

Mandy The Bible tells us much more then what Jesus was. Jesus had the glory with the Father before the world was. John 1:1-14 In the beginning was the Word and the Word was God and the Word was with God in the beginning. He the Word created all, here it says that He made all. And the Word became flesh.
Col. 1:15-18 here too talks about the creation of the world. He created all and all was in Him and for Him. In verse 18 shows us that He was the first to be resurrected from the dead, that in all He will have preeminence.
Rev. 3:14 too shows us that He was the first to be created.
So He had all the glory with the Father, John 17:5 which He gave up in order to save mankind.
He alone could have done so. All have sinned and have fallen short of the glory of God.He send His only begotten Son that who ever believed in Him should not perish, should not perish but have everlasting life. That is His promise to us. Praise and Honor to our God. I await our Savior with open arms and heart.
Peace and Love Irene

[NickHassan]

Yes not3,
We can join the body and be given some gifts and grace and a small role but we never can become the head, the Lord Jesus.

[SEEKING]

Lightenup,

This is excellent exegesis.

“Just want to interject something here. The logos of John 1:1 “was with” God in an active voice not a passive voice. Do you understand the difference. It has to do with Greek grammar. A plan doesn't do an action but is passive and acted upon. The verb “was” here, is written in an active voice and not a passive voice. Therefore, logos in this verse does not represent a “plan.”

In Jn.1:15 John uses terms like “He and Him” (John 1:15 (KJV)
John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.

Your absolutely right. Sounds much more like a person than a plan.

Seeking

[martian]

Seeking —-

First let me apologies if I offended you. It was not my intention. This type of venue leaves a great del to be desired. If I had been able to speak the same words to you face to face I believe you would have had a different impression of my motives.

If you would I would like to explain my thoughts to you once more.

One of the other post in this section was close to being what I want to point out next. God has always had a plan or idea for his creation. Although God’s physical creation is magnificent and points out the beauty and awesome creative abilities of YHWH, it really gains it’s worth as a training ground for His children. A proving ground into which He placed the first Adam. Adam had the opportunity to grow into the likeness of God in his character. Adam was given full dominion over the Earth and instruction on how to maintain that dominion. Adam failed and all have failed up until Jesus. Adam failed and gave up his position as a complete child of God with the authority of dominion. For 5,000 years God raised up leaders and examples of his character among the peoples of Earth. This is eloquently told by Jesus on Luke 20.

9And He began to tell the people this parable: “A man planted a vineyard and rented it out to vine-growers, and went on a journey for a long time.
10″At the harvest time he sent a slave to the vine-growers, so that they would give him some of the produce of the vineyard; but the vine-growers beat him and sent him away empty-handed.
11″And he proceeded to send another slave; and they beat him also and treated him shamefully and sent him away empty-handed.
12″And he proceeded to send a third; and this one also they wounded and cast out.
13″The owner of the vineyard said, 'What shall I do? I will send my beloved son; perhaps they will respect him.'
14″But when the vine-growers saw him, they reasoned with one another, saying, 'This is the heir; let us kill him so that the inheritance will be ours.'
15″So they threw him out of the vineyard and killed him. What, then, will the owner of the vineyard do to them?
16″He will come and destroy these vine-growers and will give the vineyard to others ” When they heard it, they said, “May it never be!”

None of the imperfect examples that God had sent brought about perfection in his children. Even if one followed the example exactly they were still imperfect and could not progress further. So God brought forth through Mary a second Adam and raised and taught him personally. At twelve Jesus astounded the teachers in the Temple. Where did his wisdom come from? Obviously someone taught it to him. Mary and Joseph?

Scripture is very clear that Jesus went through a perfecting process and grew in wisdom and stature before both GOD and man. This process was offered to the first Adam but he failed. The perfect example we see in Jesus is a result of this perfecting process he went through. If being personally tutored by YHWH is an advantage, SO BE IT. It is an advantage to us to have the complete and perfect example of what sonship means. Of what it means to be a son of God. Of what it means to complete the plan that God started out in the beginning to do. God expressed his idea of sonship. He made a very clear statement with Jesus Christ. He made it very evident what it is like to have His character in a human son.

The Logos is the thoughts and intentions of God for his children. It is His idea expressed. Is an idea a person? No, but a person can be the expression of an idea. That idea began to come to fruition when Mary became pregnant. That logos was made flesh at that time. Christ was the full expression of the idea that God had from the beginning. Yahweh’s character perfectly and fully developed in a human son. He was the exact representation of God. Christ represented the character of God.

Why did God do this? To give a very clear example of his completed plan for mankind. Because Jesus completed this plan he was never separated from dominion over the Earth. He made gold appear in fishes mouths, controlled the winds and seas and had authority over all manner of things that resulted from the fall and decline of God’s creation. Jesus never gave up his position as a son and when Jesus had completed his perfecting he began his work to show himself as an example to the rest of humanity. He was given all authority in heaven and Earth so that He can continue to guide and teach us along the way that he went. So that we might be perfected like he was.

Jesus was clear in his commission to His disciples. Without going into great detail it is easily proven that Matthew was originally written in Hebrew. If you translate the great commission back into Hebrew you find and very interesting proof of God’s plan.
Matthew 28:19
Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

First let’s define some of the key words from a Hebrew perspective.

Disciple = Follower
Name = Character trait
Father = He who gives strength to the family.
Son = offspring who is like his father
Holy = Set asside for a special purpose
Spirit = breath/ source of life
Baptize = emmerse (Gr)

With these understandings in place look at the verse again.

Go therefore and make followers of all the nations, immersing them in the character traits of the one who gives strength to the family and of his offspring who is the exact representation of that character and of the special anointing wind which is set asside for the purpose of being the source of life to you.

The “Great Commission” is neither a Trinitarian proof text nor even a complete water baptism verse. It is not a special montra that we recite while we dunk people in water. It is an adminition to the disiples of how to bring about the completion of God’s plan in the rest of humanity.

One of the problems with many doctrines taught today is that those doctrines deny us the possibility of using Christ as our example. In order to use Christ as an example we must compare his character to ours. Any doctrine that teaches an influence for Christ perfection and character, not available to the remainder of humanity, makes his example invalid.
If a doctrine teaches that Christ preexisted and that preexistence had any effect on Christ as a full and complete human being than his example is invalid. Invalid because we cannot duplicate it. If Christ is inheriting some glory he had in an existence previous to his Earthly life, How can we be joint heirs with Him? We have no access to that preexistent state.

If anything Christ did in His Earthly life is dependent on an influence outside of what we are influenced by, then his example is invalid.

In very simple terms — If a teaching makes the example of Christ invalid, then that teaching invalidates God’s plan for mankind and tosses Christianity (FOLLOWERS OF CHRIST) out the window.

Regardless of the exegesis any of us post, if it invalidates Christ as our example, there must be another explanation for the verse. Greek tenses notwithstanding, if the conclusion drawn from examining those tenses invalidates Christ as our example, then they invalidate and work against God’s plan for mankind and must be false.

[NickHassan]

Hi martian,
I agree Jesus was carefully fathered by his God.
But his character was transformed by his anointing at the Jordan.
His upbringing stunned the teachers.

Lk2
46And it came to pass, that after three days they found him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the doctors, both hearing them, and asking them questions.

47And all that heard him were astonished at his understanding and answers.

48And when they saw him, they were amazed: and his mother said unto him, Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us? behold, thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing.

49And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business?

But that transformation by the Spirit stunned even the locals.
Matthew 13:55
“Isn't this the carpenter's son? Isn't his mother's name Mary, and aren't his brothers James, Joseph, Simon and Judas?

Matthew 21:11
And the multitude said, This is Jesus the prophet of Nazareth of Galilee.

Luke 7:16
And there came a fear on all: and they glorified God, saying, That a great prophet is risen up among us; and, That God hath visited his people.

[SEEKING]

Martian,

Thank you for your apology. If I have been offensive, If I have been offensive I extend the same courtesy to you.

I offered the following as my present convictions:

“I see Jesus as god to the extent that all power has been given to him on heaven and earth, Mt.18:20. He can do all the things God can do but only to the extent that it is the will of the Father.It is to this will that Jesus said he is subject, Jn.5:30.”

“He is much like Joseph of whom it was said, only in the throne will I be greater than thou, Gen.41:40. Pharoah always was the grantor and Joseph was always to him. Jesus is and always will be subservient to God. It is this understanding that allows me to interpret Jn.1:1 for what it says. I struggled with the Trinitarian doctrine for quite some time because it contradicts to many scriptures. But I believe it Biblical to see Jesus in the light I described.”

I do not believe this understanding or any exegesis offered preclude Jesus being the example we are to emulate. I even would go so far as to say we can become that example as we submit to the leading of the Spirit. I say that because the Father desires to mold us into the likeness of His son (Rom.8:29; 2Cor.3:18)and my will as all that can stand in His way. Naturally, there are those that cal it “heresy” to believe we can become like Jesus. But, to me,it seems to be our goal.

Interesting to me is that the more I read the contributions of others and strive to understand them – I find we are not as far apart as one might have thought at the beginning.

Always “Seeking”

[martian]

Quote (SEEKING @ Jan. 20 2009,08:58)

Martian, Thank you for your apology.  If I have been offensive, If I have been offensive I extend the same courtesy to you. I offered the following as my present convictions: “I see Jesus as god to the extent that all power has been given to him on heaven and earth, Mt.18:20.  He can do all the things God can do but only to the extent that it is the will of the Father.It is to this will that Jesus said he is subject, Jn.5:30.” “He is much like Joseph of whom it was said, only in the throne will I be greater than thou, Gen.41:40.  Pharoah always was the grantor and Joseph was always  to him.  Jesus is and always will be subservient to God.  It is this understanding that allows me to interpret Jn.1:1 for what it says.  I struggled with the Trinitarian doctrine for quite some time because it contradicts to many scriptures.  But I believe it Biblical to see Jesus in the light I described.” I do not believe this understanding or any exegesis offered preclude Jesus being the example we are to emulate.  I even would go so far as to say we can become that example as we submit to the leading of the Spirit.  I say that because the Father desires to mold us into the likeness of His son (Rom.8:29; 2Cor.3:18)and my will as all that can stand in His way.  Naturally, there are those that cal it “heresy” to believe we can become like Jesus.  But, to me,it seems to be our goal. Interesting to me is that the more I read the contributions of others and strive to understand them – I find we are not as far apart as one might have thought at the beginning.   Always “Seeking”

I think you are right. We are not quite as far apart as it first appeared.

Let me ask you a few questions for clearity sake.
Do you believe Jesus existed in some conscious state before his birth to mary?
If so, What happened to the experiances and memories when he became an infant on Earth?
Did this preexistance influince his ability to be perfected?

[Author]

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