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Quote (Not3in1 @ April 19 2008,19:00) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 19 2008,10:47) But you want us to believe in just another anointed man or prophet like all the others in the past
But didn't Moses say that is who Jesus would be?That God would provide another “prophet” from among the brethren who was just like him? Or am I remembering that part wrong? Thanks.
Tes and being a prophet is a human calling. Now if Jesus is God why does He need to be a prophet. A prophet speaks first person from God. In otherwords God speaks through that person in first prson. If Jesus is God He need not have God speak through Him He only need speak.martian……right on, “God who at sundry times spoke to us (through) the prophets has in these latter day's spoken to us (through) a son”. So who spoke, it was God first person speaking (through them) as you say. Another amazing example of this was when God Spoke first person through Jesus was when God first person said “all that ever came before me were liars and thieves”. Why did God utter that through Jesus Lips and what did He mean , He meant people would come a ask God for things and when God would do it, then they would try to take credit for them, acting like they did them, therefore they were liars and thieves, stealing glory that should have went to God, even Moses did that when at the waters of Merabiah in the wilderness, but Jesus never stold glory from God, saying to God I have glorified you on the earth”. He know full well who was doing the work and the miracles it was the Father working through Him, and he always gave Him the glory.
peace and health to you brother……………..gene
gollamudi……..welcome to the site, thanks for the kind words.
peace and health to you and yours…………gene
Moses spoke:
Deuteronomy 18:15
Yahweh your God will raise up to you a prophet from the midst of you, of your brothers, like me; to him you shall listen;
Deuteronomy 18:17
Yahweh said to me, They have well said that which they have spoken.
Deuteronomy 18:18
I will raise them up a prophet from among their brothers, like you; and I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I shall command him.
Deuteronomy 18:19
It shall happen, that whoever will not listen to my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.Yes, Yahweh, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, who is also the God and Father of Jesus, spoke through Jesus. God, by means of his holy spirit, reveals through the scriptures that Jesus was sent by Yahweh, speaks for Yahweh, represents Yahweh, and was raised and glorified by the the only true God, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Jesus never claimed to be, nor do the scriptures present Jesus as, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, whom Jesus represents and speaks for. — Deuteronomy 18:15-19; Matthew 22:32; 23:39; Mark 11:9,10; 12:26; Luke 13:35; 20:37; John 3:2,17,32-35; 4:34; 5:19,30,36,43; 6:57; 7:16,28; 8:26,28,38; 10:25; 12:49,50; 14:10; 15:15; 17:8,26; 20:17; Acts 2:22,34-36; 3:13,22; 5:30; Romans 15:6; 2 Corinthians 1:3; 8:6; 11:31; Colossians 1:3,15; 2:9-12; Hebrews 1:1-3; Revelation 1:1.
Ronald
To All, but especially those with whom I have found a difference in doctrine.
I my years of being on message boards, I have seen a regrettable attitude forming in myself and others. The attitude of being in aggressive debate mode. Nowhere in scripture do I see Christ treating with those that were of the faith in such a way.
When I encounter such as WJ, Nick or lightenup, I should honor their commitment to walk with God regardless of the fact that we differ in some doctrine that has nothing to do with salvation. I should applaud those like WJ that take the time and effort to study and pursue the ministry and the salvation of souls. I know I have had a habit of getting too worked up over a silly web site. If I were to meet WJ, Nick or lightenup on the outside and we did not have this history we would most likely have more in common then less. A love for God and a desire to see his work done in us and all that will receive him. So to them and all others on here that name the Lord Jesus Christ as their saviour, My thanks for pleasing the heart of our mutual Father in heaven and I welcome you as my brothers and sisters to the kingdom of our mutual God. You have my respect for your commitment to God.
It is important for me to remind myself that you are all children of our mutual father and deserving of my respect. It is also important to me that you know I do have that respect for you.Quote (Not3in1 @ April 19 2008,19:00) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 19 2008,10:47) But you want us to believe in just another anointed man or prophet like all the others in the past
But didn't Moses say that is who Jesus would be?That God would provide another “prophet” from among the brethren who was just like him? Or am I remembering that part wrong? Thanks.
Yes, Yeshua is a prophet, but not only a prophet, He is much more than that.Quote (Is 1:18 @ April 20 2008,09:39) Quote (Not3in1 @ April 19 2008,19:00) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 19 2008,10:47) But you want us to believe in just another anointed man or prophet like all the others in the past
But didn't Moses say that is who Jesus would be?That God would provide another “prophet” from among the brethren who was just like him? Or am I remembering that part wrong? Thanks.
Yes, Yeshua is a prophet, but not only a prophet, He is much more than that.
Hi Bro. Isaiah:Of course, he is not just any prophet. He is “The Christ the Son of the Living God” and God has revealed this to the Church. (Matt. 16) And God has shown us that He has spoken to us through His Son in these last days. (Hebrews 1ff)
Yes brother SDN. He is a prophet, but not just any prophet. He is also King, but not just any King – King of Kings. And He is Lord, but not just any Lord – Lord of Lords.
Quote (martian @ April 20 2008,05:49) To All, but especially those with whom I have found a difference in doctrine.
I my years of being on message boards, I have seen a regrettable attitude forming in myself and others. The attitude of being in aggressive debate mode. Nowhere in scripture do I see Christ treating with those that were of the faith in such a way.
When I encounter such as WJ, Nick or lightenup, I should honor their commitment to walk with God regardless of the fact that we differ in some doctrine that has nothing to do with salvation. I should applaud those like WJ that take the time and effort to study and pursue the ministry and the salvation of souls. I know I have had a habit of getting too worked up over a silly web site. If I were to meet WJ, Nick or lightenup on the outside and we did not have this history we would most likely have more in common then less. A love for God and a desire to see his work done in us and all that will receive him. So to them and all others on here that name the Lord Jesus Christ as their saviour, My thanks for pleasing the heart of our mutual Father in heaven and I welcome you as my brothers and sisters to the kingdom of our mutual God. You have my respect for your commitment to God.
It is important for me to remind myself that you are all children of our mutual father and deserving of my respect. It is also important to me that you know I do have that respect for you.
I'm giving you a standing ovation!Clap, clap, clap, clap, whoo-hoo, clap, clap….
Quote (Is 1:18 @ April 20 2008,16:35) Yes brother SDN. He is a prophet, but not just any prophet. He is also King, but not just any King – King of Kings. And He is Lord, but not just any Lord – Lord of Lords.
Lord of “Lords”, yes. But not the LORD God. For there is only one God, and one Lord.Hey Isaiah – good to hear from you!
Love to you and your family,
MandyQuote (gollamudi @ April 19 2008,20:30) Hi Not3in1,
You are not wrong in remembering that Jesus has to be a prophet like Moses. It has been confirmed by St Peter in Acts 2. Really I'm blessed by your views and as well as of Gene.
Do write more. I am happy to read explanations of yours and Gene's with great joy. There no confusion in them. I always expereience peace when I gothrough your posts.
Thank you Sis. I'm Adam from India.
God bless all
Adam
Well, HELLO, Adam from India!What a sweet post, and thank you! I'm glad that my posts make sense to someone other than me! Ha!
We're glad that you are here and WELCOME! Looking forward to hearing more from you.
Love to you and yours,
MandyQuote (Not3in1 @ April 20 2008,19:40) Quote (Is 1:18 @ April 20 2008,16:35) Yes brother SDN. He is a prophet, but not just any prophet. He is also King, but not just any King – King of Kings. And He is Lord, but not just any Lord – Lord of Lords.
Lord of “Lords”, yes. But not the LORD God. For there is only one God, and one Lord.Hey Isaiah – good to hear from you!
Love to you and your family,
Mandy
Yeshua is called God in scripture. He is even called this by the Father in Heb 1:8. Is He then a false God? Is there more than one true God?Good to hear from you too.
I keep coming to the same roadblock when it comes to the concept of Jesus as God. No mater how I try to see other’s points on the subject, the end conclusion continues to be outlandish.
One of the primary missions of Christ life is to be an example for the rest of humanity on how to walk with God. To claim divinity for Christ places Him in a non human category. Call it what you will, dual natured, pre-existent, 100% God 100% man, God/man it still changes the very nature of that being and brings into question everything that Christ did and says we can do. If Christ is God then I cannot in reality be like him. This in essence scraps the whole concept of other’s following in Christ steps and the plan of God to raise up other’s like Christ.
Setting aside all of the supposed scriptural proofs on either side one sometimes has to look at the end conclusion of the proofs we post. If Christ is God we cannot be like Him. With that conclusion, you will need rewrite most of Christianity because that is one of the foundations of Christianity. Sometimes I wonder if those that support those concepts really believe we can become like Christ. I do not know how they can and still hold onto a Christ that is different then us.Quote (Is 1:18 @ April 20 2008,20:36) Quote (Not3in1 @ April 20 2008,19:40) Quote (Is 1:18 @ April 20 2008,16:35) Yes brother SDN. He is a prophet, but not just any prophet. He is also King, but not just any King – King of Kings. And He is Lord, but not just any Lord – Lord of Lords.
Lord of “Lords”, yes. But not the LORD God. For there is only one God, and one Lord.Hey Isaiah – good to hear from you!
Love to you and your family,
Mandy
Yeshua is called God in scripture. He is even called this by the Father in Heb 1:8. Is He then a false God? Is there more than one true God?Good to hear from you too.
Paul tells us there is one God, the Father. He goes on to say that there is one Lord, Jesus Christ.Everything else is patchwork and inference. Jesus never says directly that he is God. You may infer certain verses say such, but it is not 100% sure among many scholars. If this is the case, then it should remain suspect, not given over to absolute truth.
It only stands to reason that humans give birth to humans. So then if God had a son (via a human), we should be able to stretch our reason to assume that this child is the product of both contributor's. Therefore, God could call his son a “god”. However note that God never calls Jesus the Almighty.
Remember that Paul told us there is only one Almighty; there is only one God; and that person is…..drum roll please…..the FATHER.
Quote (Not3in1 @ April 21 2008,07:41) Quote (Is 1:18 @ April 20 2008,20:36) Quote (Not3in1 @ April 20 2008,19:40) Quote (Is 1:18 @ April 20 2008,16:35) Yes brother SDN. He is a prophet, but not just any prophet. He is also King, but not just any King – King of Kings. And He is Lord, but not just any Lord – Lord of Lords.
Lord of “Lords”, yes. But not the LORD God. For there is only one God, and one Lord.Hey Isaiah – good to hear from you!
Love to you and your family,
Mandy
Yeshua is called God in scripture. He is even called this by the Father in Heb 1:8. Is He then a false God? Is there more than one true God?Good to hear from you too.
Paul tells us there is one God, the Father. He goes on to say that there is one Lord, Jesus Christ.Everything else is patchwork and inference. Jesus never says directly that he is God. You may infer certain verses say such, but it is not 100% sure among many scholars. If this is the case, then it should remain suspect, not given over to absolute truth.
It only stands to reason that humans give birth to humans. So then if God had a son (via a human), we should be able to stretch our reason to assume that this child is the product of both contributor's. Therefore, God could call his son a “god”. However note that God never calls Jesus the Almighty.
Remember that Paul told us there is only one Almighty; there is only one God; and that person is…..drum roll please…..the FATHER.
Corect — It is not clear in scripture how God brought about the conception within Mary. Everyting is speculation on that part. My personal opinion is that God created a human seed to place in Mary's womb to fertalize her egg. Whatever the process was it is very clear in many mant clear scriptures that the end result was 100% human and made like his brethren in EVERY WAY. This is the only way in which Jesus could fullfill His mission as the example and foreunner for the rest of man.The relationship between Yahushua and Yahueh (Vav can be U or W pronounced the same) is illustratrated easily. Yahweh in his full presence would overpower the creation and destroy it, but when he reduces his presence to the level of the elements here the world we live will not only survive but flurish. If you look at the sun with the naked eye you are very quickly blinded but if you put a tinted lense between your eye and the sun you can look at it and not be blinded yet it is the same light. Yahushuah is that light that we can observe and yet survive.
(Exo 33:20) And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
KJVI would like to begin a discussion on the way in which the writers of scripture (Hebrews) thought of names. As we go through this remember that even in the New Testament the authors were Hebrews and thought in the same cultural way as those of their predesessors.
The first point is that the Hebrew culture and language did not view names in the same way as we of the Western cultures. We of the Western cultures view names/objects by way of appearance and the Hebrew saw names/object by way of their function.
For example a deer and an oak tree could never be described as the same in Western cultures. They are vastly different in appearance. However in Eastern (Hebrew) culture they are used interchangeably for the concept of “a strong leader” The Hebrew word Ayil in Psalms 29:9 is translated as both deer and oak tree depending on the translation read. The oak tree’s wood is very hard and the Deer is a strong animal among the forest creatures. Both convey the concept of strong leaders. The concept behind the translation of this Hebrew scripture is “The voice of the LORD makes the strong leaders turn”.
From this example it can be seen how the Hebrews saw things by virtue of their function rather then their appearance.
Another difference between the Western and Eastern languages is the active or passive noun. Western cultures view a noun as the description of a person place or thing. The Eastern cultures view a noun by the action of that person place or thing.
A second aspect of Hebrew language describes objects is by personal description rather then impersonal. A Western Thinker will describe an object in relation to the object itself, while a Hebrew thinker describes an object in relation to the Hebrew himself. This is why there is no word in the Hebrew language for “is”. What would be in the place of “is” would be” functions as” or” relates to me as”. The Western thinker would say God is love. The Hebrew says God loves me. They were relational in concept. They did not see God as an abstract distanced being. They saw God by virtue of His relationship with them.
The following is a partial list of the names of God and their literal definitions. Notice how the descriptions of God all have to do with the functions of God and the ways in which He relates to His people. Notice also that they describe an action taken by GodPrimary Names of God:
Elohim – God. The Strong Creator or power magnified (Gen. 1:1)
Yahweh – Lord. The Self-existing One (Gen.2:4)
Adonai – Lord/Master. The Headship Name (Gen. 15:2)
Compound Names of the Lord God:
(Yahweh El and Yahweh Elohim)
Yahweh El Elohim – The Lord God of Gods (Josh. 22:22) The existing one that is magnitudes of power over other gods.
Yahweh Elohim – The Lord God {Gen. 2:4; 3:9-13, 21) Yahweh h Elohe Abothekem – The Lord God of your Fathers (Josh. 18:3)
Yahweh El Elyon – The Lord, The Most High God (Gen. 14:22)
Yahweh El Emeth – Lord God of Truth (Psa. 31:5)
Yahweh El Gemuwal – The Lord God of Recompenses (Jer. 51:56)
Yahweh Elohim Tsebaoth – Lord God of Hosts (Psa. 59:5)
Yahweh Elohe Yeshuathi – Lord God of My Salvation (Psa. 88:1)
Yahweh Elohe Yisrael – The Lord God of Israel (Psa. 41:13)Compound Names of God
(El, Elohim and Elohe)
Elohim – God or literally “powers” as in a magnitude or multiplied amount of power. (Gen 1:1)
Elohim Bashamayim – God in Heaven (Josh. 2:11)
El Bethel – God of the House of God (Gen. 35:7)
Elohe Chaseddi – The God of My Mercy (Psa. 59:10)
El Elohe Yisrael – God, the God of Israel (Gen. 33:20)
El Elyon – The Most High God (Gen. 14:18)
El Emunah – The Faithful God (Deut. 7:9)
El Gibbor – Mighty God (Isa. 9:6)
El Hakabodh – The God of Glory (Psa. 29:3)
El Hay – The Living God (Josh. 3:10)
El Hayyay – God of My Life (Psa. 42:8)
Elohim Kedoshim – Holy God (Josh. 24:19)
El Kanna – Jealous God (Exod. 20:5)
El Kanno – Jealous God (Josh. 24:19)
Elohe Mauzi – God of My Strength (Psa. 43:2)
Elohim Machase Lanu – God our Refuge (Psa. 62:8)
Eli Malekhi – God My King (Psa. 68:24)
El Marom – God Most High (Micah 6:6
El Nekamoth – God that Avengeth (Psa. 18:47)
El Nose – God that Forgave (Psa. 99:8)
Elohenu Olam – Our Everlasting God (Psa. 48:14)
Elohim Ozer Li – God My Helper (Psa. 54:4)
El Rai – God Seest Me (Gen. 16:13)
El Sali – God, My Rock (Psa. 42:9)
El Shaddai – Almighty God (Gen. 17:1, 2)
Elohim Shophtim Ba-arets – God that Judges in the Earth (Psa. 58:11)
El Simchath Gili – God, My Exceeding Joy (Psa. 43:4)
Elohim Tsebaoth – God of Hosts (Psa. 80:7)
Elohe Tishuathi – God of my Salvation (Psa. 18:46; 51:14)
Elohe Tsadeki – God of My Righteousness (Psa. 4:1)
Elohe Yakob – God of Israel (Psa. 20:1)
Elohe Yisrael – God of Israel (Psa 59:5)Let’s look at one example that brings this truth through the OT and into the NT.
1God takes His stand in His own congregation;
He judges in the midst of the rulers.
2How long will you judge unjustly
And show partiality to the wicked? Selah.
3Vindicate the weak and fatherless;
Do justice to the afflicted and destitute.
4Rescue the weak and needy;
Deliver them out of the hand of the wicked.
5They do not know nor do they understand;
They walk about in darkness;
All the foundations of the earth are shaken.
6I said, “You are gods,
And all of you are sons of the Most High.
7″Nevertheless you will die like men
And fall like any one of the princes.”
8Arise, O God, judge the earth!
For it is You who possesses all the nations.
In this Psalm God is rebuking the leaders of Israel for not judging righteously. He calls them “Gods”. This is not to say that these leaders were literally Gods but to say that their responsibility was to act/function as God would toward the people of Israel. YHWH says you are Gods and sons of the most high and you should function and take actions as God.
In John 10 Jesus quotes this portion of the OT. He uses what is called a Remez. A favorite tactic among Rabbis in which a small portion of the text is spoken and the listener would understand it in it’s full context.John 10
30″I and the Father are one.”
31The Jews picked up stones again to stone Him.
32Jesus answered them, “I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?”
33The Jews answered Him, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God.”
34Jesus answered them, “Has it not been written in your Law, 'I SAID, YOU ARE GODS'?
35″If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken),
36do you say of Him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, 'You are blaspheming,' because I said, 'I am the Son of God'?
37″If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me;
38but if I do them, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father.”
39Therefore they were seeking again to seize Him, and He eluded their grasp.
Verse 30 Jesus points out that He and His Father are one. He then continues through the context to explain how they are one.
Verse 31 The Jews set to stone him.
Verse 32 & 33 Jesus takes the conversation right to His actions and the way He has functioned toward the people of Israel. The charge of blasphemy was not the reason they wanted to stone Him. The leaders wanted to stone Him because He was demonstrating how a son of God should operate. Something the leaders of Israel had not been doing.
A. T. Robertson makes it clear that they indeed were prompted by the healing/good works of Jesus in healing the blind man on the Sabbath.
“For a good work we stone thee not (peri kalou ergou ou liqazomen). “Concerning a good deed
we are not stoning thee.” Flat denial that the healing of the blind man on the Sabbath had led them to this attempt (Hebrews 8:59) in spite of the facts.”Robertson goes on to explain that Jesus was asscerting that because He was a son of God, he had authority to act or function as God.
Verse 34 Jesus quotes Psalm 82 directly pointing out that just as the leaders spoken of in that psalm the current leaders of Israel should be functioning as Gods to the people. Not only with the power of God but with the mercy and compassion that would heal a blind man even on the Sabboth.
Verse 35 Jesus points to the leaders supposed reliance on the scriptures and that they claim to not break them.
Verse 36 Jesus says in essence – You call it blasphemy when I act and function with the authority of a son of God. It is interesting to note that Robertson points out that the article “the” in “the son of God” is not in the Greek.
Verses 37 & 38 Jesus again takes them back to the works that He is doing. How he functions is what He is trying to convey to these leaders. In other words – If you cannot believe my words, look at how I function and you will see how the Father and I are one. I in Him, He in me. We are united in our actions and the way we function toward the children of God.
Verse 39 Again the leaders could not stand being shown how poorly they portrayed the character of God. They had their reputations as the spiritual leaders to uphold and this man was toppling their empire.
Martian, this sounds like it needs it's own thread. Maybe snip your last post and begin a new thread so we don't hijack the Trinity thread.
Thanks,
MandyQuote (martian @ April 20 2008,05:49) To All, but especially those with whom I have found a difference in doctrine.
I my years of being on message boards, I have seen a regrettable attitude forming in myself and others. The attitude of being in aggressive debate mode. Nowhere in scripture do I see Christ treating with those that were of the faith in such a way.
When I encounter such as WJ, Nick or lightenup, I should honor their commitment to walk with God regardless of the fact that we differ in some doctrine that has nothing to do with salvation. I should applaud those like WJ that take the time and effort to study and pursue the ministry and the salvation of souls. I know I have had a habit of getting too worked up over a silly web site. If I were to meet WJ, Nick or lightenup on the outside and we did not have this history we would most likely have more in common then less. A love for God and a desire to see his work done in us and all that will receive him. So to them and all others on here that name the Lord Jesus Christ as their saviour, My thanks for pleasing the heart of our mutual Father in heaven and I welcome you as my brothers and sisters to the kingdom of our mutual God. You have my respect for your commitment to God.
It is important for me to remind myself that you are all children of our mutual father and deserving of my respect. It is also important to me that you know I do have that respect for you.
martianI am impressed!
This is one of the best posts I have seen you make.
All believers should feel the same.
Blessings!
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