The Trinity Doctrine

[martian]

I will be off this board for a while. I am dealing with some health issues and do not feel it is profitable to be on here for now.
Take care all.

[seek and you will find]

Quote (martian @ April 13 2008,04:46)

I will be off this board for a while. I am dealing with some health issues and do not feel it is profitable to be on here for now. Take care all.

martian! Sorry that you re sick. Good luck to you and I will say a prayer for your health.

Peace and Love Mrs.

[Not3in1]

Take care, Martian. I know health issues demand a lot of energy. God be with you, bro. And please know that you have brought a lot of insight and understanding to my mind. I've appreciated your input and hope you return just as soon as you can, OK?

Love,
Mandy

[NickHassan]

Quote (Not3in1 @ April 13 2008,03:59)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 12 2008,20:40) Hi mandy, So you have joined Pilate in saying “what is truth?”   There is truth mandy and it is the bible. Jn17 17Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. wake up. Oh, I'm awake.  I'd say that I am more awake these days than I have been my whole indoctrinated life! What is truth?  Yes, I am there.  For so many it means so many different things.  Who are you to tell them that they are wrong and you are right?  You have the bible!  That makes you right?  Sorry, don't mean to chuckle, but I have to.  Other's have their sacred writings and it doesn't prove that they are any more right and in possession of the “truth” than it does you. I believe that Jesus is truth.  I'm just not convinced that he is the only truth (even tho the bible says it – of course the bible says it – just as other sacred writings subscribe to their hero).

Hi mandy,
Storms are coming.
How stands your building of faith?

[NickHassan]

Hi mandy,
So now the trinity is true
and not true?

[Not3in1]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 13 2008,07:48)

Hi mandy, So now the trinity is true and not true?

Yep.

Just ask Isaiah.

He has reasons for that make complete sense according to scripture, as well you are armed with the same for the opposite cause.

Who is right? But we've had this conversation before haven't we? And we never come to any conclusion other than the bible is true. But when you have two men reading the same word and getting two different answers you then have to wonder who is listening to the spirit and who isn't.

Are you qualified to make that judgement?

[Not3in1]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 13 2008,07:46)

Quote (Not3in1 @ April 13 2008,03:59) Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 12 2008,20:40) Hi mandy, So you have joined Pilate in saying “what is truth?”   There is truth mandy and it is the bible. Jn17 17Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. wake up. Oh, I'm awake.  I'd say that I am more awake these days than I have been my whole indoctrinated life! What is truth?  Yes, I am there.  For so many it means so many different things.  Who are you to tell them that they are wrong and you are right?  You have the bible!  That makes you right?  Sorry, don't mean to chuckle, but I have to.  Other's have their sacred writings and it doesn't prove that they are any more right and in possession of the “truth” than it does you. I believe that Jesus is truth.  I'm just not convinced that he is the only truth (even tho the bible says it – of course the bible says it – just as other sacred writings subscribe to their hero). Hi mandy, Storms are coming. How stands your building of faith?

I guess I'll just have to have faith that I can withstand the storms. That's all any of us can do.

[NickHassan]

Hi not3,
You say the bible is true
and yet you agree men should judge it?

[Not3in1]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 13 2008,09:27)

Hi not3, You say the bible is true and yet you agree men should judge it?

The bible is true.
The bible is false.
The bible is the word of God.
The bible is the word of man.

All is true.

[NickHassan]

hmmm

[Lightenup]

Hi all,
Jesus is either equal to His Father or He is not. You can't have it both ways.

Lets say that He is not equal then He certainly does not want to be made out to be equal or worshipped as equal, no way! That would make Him more like satan that thought he could be equal to the Most High God when he indeed wasn't. The actual words of Christ say that the Father is greater than Him. Perhaps Jesus' greatest strength is that He knows how really not equal He is to His Father. How different He is than satan. One got cast out of heaven and headed for the Lake of Fire, the other was given a name above every other name, the right words to say, shown the right way to do things, and the position of God to us just underneath the position of His Father. He is also given worship even from the angels, a kingdom that has no end, glory as of the only begotten Son and begotten God. Wow, the Father must be very pleased with His Son that totally depends on Him and realizes His lower position to Him. He gave Him all things.

[NickHassan]

Quote (martian @ April 13 2008,04:46)

I will be off this board for a while. I am dealing with some health issues and do not feel it is profitable to be on here for now. Take care all.

Hi martian,
Been there and done that so I know the pain.
Get well martian, you are being lifted up.

[NickHassan]

Hi LU,
You are right.
No confusion.

God is one and Jesus was not speaking of himself when he said it.

Jesus is instead the son of David and the one who comes in the name of the Lord.
Mt 21
9and the multitudes who were going before, and who were following, were crying, saying, `Hosanna to the Son of David, blessed is he who is coming in the name of the Lord; Hosanna in the highest.'

[seek and you will find]

Quote (Lightenup @ April 13 2008,16:20)

Hi all, Jesus is either equal to His Father or He is not.  You can't have it both ways.   Lets say that He is not equal then He certainly does not want to be made out to be equal or worshipped as equal, no way!  That would make Him more like satan that thought he could be equal to the Most High God when he indeed wasn't.  The actual words of Christ say that the Father is greater than Him.  Perhaps Jesus' greatest strength is that He knows how really not equal He is to His Father.  How different He is than satan.  One got cast out of heaven and headed for the Lake of Fire, the other was given a name above every other name, the right words to say, shown the right way to do things, and the position of God to us just underneath the position of His Father.  He is also given worship even from the angels, a kingdom that has no end, glory as of the only begotten Son and begotten God.  Wow, the Father must be very pleased with His Son that totally depends on Him and realizes His lower position to Him.  He gave Him all things.

Kathi! I agree with you 100%, but there are two members that come on here that have all kind of scripture to prove their view.
Ephesians 4:4-6 is pretty much what has proven it to me that it is wrong. But to some it makes no difference.
We can only show them, they have to prove it to themself, tho.
Peace and Love Irene

[martian]

Quote (Lightenup @ April 04 2008,06:22)

Quote (martian @ April 02 2008,15:28) Quote (Lightenup @ April 02 2008,09:58) Quote (martian @ April 01 2008,10:51) Since a doctrine is being formed on the basis of this  and a few other scriptures, what is the end conclusion of that doctrien. 1. How does it support the plan of God? Hello Martian, While I was at the museum this afternoon I had a thought that might help answer how the pre-existence of the Son of God and His role in creation supported the plan of God. We are told that in Job 38:2-7 that the angels were witnesses to the “fattening” of the earth because that is who is referred to in v.7.  Well, supposing that the only begotten Son of God (Jesus) did in fact have a role in creation as He existed in a heavenly body as it implies in Is 51:16 and other places.  He performed that role with the witness of the other sons of God, the angels.  Therefore, because the angels were there and witnessed this, they knew that Christ was unique to them and above them.  God established Christ priority to creation and to the angels through this.  That is a reason or part of the reason to show how His pre-existence supports the plan of God. Job 38:2-7 2 “Who is this that darkens counsel By words without knowledge? 3 “Now gird up your loins like a man, And I will ask you, and you instruct Me! 4 “Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell Me, if you have understanding, 5 Who set its measurements? Since you know. Or who stretched the line on it? 6 “On what were its bases sunk? Or who laid its cornerstone, 7 When the morning stars sang together And all the sons of God shouted for joy? NASU I am not going to deal with all of the Job you quoted just two portions. “Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Laid in this verse has a wide application but one of it’s primary meanings is to set into place. Foundation carries the meaning of a plan like a blueprint. Earth = maturing of the sons of God. Again the proper translation would be something like – “Where were you when I set into place  the plan or blueprint for the maturing of the sons of God?   This ties precisely with John 1 in which the logos (intentions or plan) of God was with Him from the beginning and that Jesus is the fulfillment of the plan. The logos is the blueprint in the mind of God. Jesus is the completed building/Temple. Hi Martian, Here is your principle #17 on how to translate: 17. When defining a particular word in scripture, first assume the primary definition of the word is correct, as can be found in a Bible dictionary. When you write: Foundation carries the meaning of a plan like a blueprint. Earth = maturing of the sons of God. What Bible dictionary do you use or even what reference material? I do not find these definitions in Bible Dictionaries or encyclopedias and I have looked at: Fausset's Bible Dictionary, New Unger's Bible Dictionary, International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia, and International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia For this post, I am going to focus on your idea of foundation meaning “plan” or “blueprint”.  This is what I have found to be the meaning of “when I laid the foundations of”  from Job 38:4 in Strong's and then the word “foundation” in a Bible dictionary: OT:3245 yacad (yaw-sad'); a primitive root; to set (literally or figuratively); intensively, to found; reflexively, to sit down together, i.e. settle, consult: KJV – appoint, take counsel, establish, (lay the, lay for a) found (-ation), instruct, lay, ordain, set, sure. (Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, Biblesoft and International Bible Translators, Inc.) FOUNDATION. The lowest part of a building, and on which it rests. Figurative. By foundation is sometimes understood the origin (Job 4:19), where men are represented as dwelling in clay houses, whose foundation, i.e., origin, was in the dust (cf. Gen 2:7; 3:19). It is also used in the sense of beginning, as “the foundation of the world” (Matt 13:35; 25:34; etc.). The expression is illustrative of Christ: “Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone, a tested stone,” etc. (Isa 28:16; 1 Cor 3:11); of the doctrines of the apostles (Eph 2:20); the first principles of the gospel (Heb 6:1-2); the Christian religion (2 Tim 2:19); of the righteous (Prov 10:25). The wise man is one who lays his foundation upon a rock (Luke 6:48); the good minister, who builds on the true foundation-Jesus Christ (1 Cor 3:10-11). (from The New Unger's Bible Dictionary. Originally published by Moody Press of Chicago, Illinois. Copyright © 1988.) I have also looked up “plan” and “blueprint”.  I did not find the word “blueprint” in the Bible but I did find “plan”. Plan is from many Hebrew words and one Greek word and I will list the more relevant Strong's numbers and definitions: OT:8403 tabniyth (tab-neeth'); from OT:1129; structure; by implication, a model, resemblance: KJV – figure, form, likeness, pattern, similitude. OT:6098 `etsah (ay-tsaw'); from OT:3289; advice; by implication, plan; also prudence: KJV – advice, advisement, counsel (l- [or]), purpose. OT:2803 chashab (khaw-shab'); a primitive root; properly, to plait or interpenetrate, i.e. (literally) to weave or (gen.) to fabricate; figuratively, to plot or contrive (usually in a malicious sense); hence (from the mental effort) to think, regard, value, compute: KJV – (make) account (of), conceive, consider, count, cunning (man, work, workman), devise, esteem, find out, forecast, hold, imagine, impute, invent, be like, mean, purpose, reckon (-ing be made), regard, think. OT:4284 machashabah (makh-ash-aw-baw'); or machashebeth (makh-ash-eh'-beth); from OT:2803; a contrivance, i.e. (concretely) a texture, machine, or (abstractly) intention, plan (whether bad, a plot; or good, advice): KJV – cunning (work), curious work, device (-sed), imagination, invented, means, purpose, thought. Now for the New Testament: NT:1012 boule (boo-lay'); from NT:1014; volition, i.e. (objectively) advice, or (by implication) purpose: KJV –  advise, counsel, will. (Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, Biblesoft and International Bible Translators, Inc.) So, in conclusion of your idea of “foundation carries the meaning of a plan like a blueprint.” I disagree.   Also, I can not find in any of the above resources your meaning that earth=maturing of the sons of God.  So, according to my sources, I am not eager to embrace your idea of what the  “proper translation” should be.

Actually I do not see your point. You posted Isa 51 as proof that it was Jesus that parted the Red Sea in some pr-existant state. Whether you take my definition of “earth” or n
ot is not relavent. Isa 51 is still not about Jesus.
When you speak of the principles you should look at what you are doing to the ones you agreed to.
All of the principles we agreed upon are based on context.
Cntext does not simple mean within the few verses that surround the verse in question but also mean within the will of God and within the general overall scriptures.
In the case of your interpretation of Isa 51 you broke all three. The context of Ia 51 is God speaking to/about the people of Israel and not to/about Jesus. As I posted before it falls very clearly into place when the context of the “parting of the Red Sea” is examined in the Book of Exodus. Again context within all of scripture. Also the principle of comparing scriptures with other scriptures on the same subject.

As far as the use of plan, you ae arguing simantics. What does the “will of God” mean?
According to Vines expository on NT words, it means the desires of God. What is God’s desire toward man?
1 John 2:17?The world is passing away, and also its lusts; but the one who does the will of God lives forever.
Here in a nutshell is the purpose or plan of God for mankind.
Look up the phrase “will of God” and you will see many references to that phrase.
Does God have a desire for us? An action we are supposed to take to complete that desire? God has a will for His creation, including man. He has a purpose and a function for what He has created. Obviously that purpose is to mature sons and daughters that have His character. Jesus is the first to accomplish that purpose. The entire scripture is about that purpose or “plan” of God for mankind. From the very beginning God set into motion those things needed for us to follow that we might exercise our free will to be in line with His and accomplish the purpose/plan of God for us. The use of the term blueprint or plan is no different then the use of the term “will”.

One needs to ask if a particular interpretation helps or hinders the fulfillment of the will/purpose/plan of God.

Back to the original post. Will you now admit that Isa 51 is not talking about Jesus but is about the people of Israel? Will you admit that “the arm of the lord” in this context is speaking of the nation of Israel and by implication all of us believers?

[NickHassan]

Hi martian,
Do you fully know the full plan of God?
Is it completely according to rules of human logic?
Once again you neglect to mention the enabling grace of the Spirit of God.

Without the Spirit of God and enabling grace Jesus and the men of old would have failed and so will we who follow him.

Results 1-25 of 159Next
Genesis 6:8
But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

Genesis 33:10
And Jacob said, Nay, I pray thee, if now I have found grace in thy sight, then receive my present at my hand: for therefore I have seen thy face, as though I had seen the face of God, and thou wast pleased with me.

Genesis 39:4
And Joseph found grace in his sight, and he served him: and he made him overseer over his house, and all that he had he put into his hand.

Exodus 33:13
Now therefore, I pray thee, if I have found grace in thy sight, shew me now thy way, that I may know thee, that I may find grace in thy sight: and consider that this nation is thy people.

1 Samuel 20:3
And David sware moreover, and said, Thy father certainly knoweth that I have found grace in thine eyes; and he saith, Let not Jonathan know this, lest he be grieved: but truly as the LORD liveth, and as thy soul liveth, there is but a step between me and death.

Psalm 84:11
For the LORD God is a sun and shield: the LORD will give grace and glory: no good thing will he withhold from them that walk uprightly.

This is why at least 27 times in the apostolic letters it says things like
2 John 1:3
Grace be with you, mercy, and peace, from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.

[martian]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 14 2008,07:25)

Hi martian, Do you fully know the full plan of God? Is it completely according to rules of human logic? Once again you neglect to mention the enabling grace of the Spirit of God. Without the Spirit of God and enabling grace Jesus and the men of old would have failed and so will we who follow him. Results 1-25 of 159Next Genesis 6:8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD. Genesis 33:10 And Jacob said, Nay, I pray thee, if now I have found grace in thy sight, then receive my present at my hand: for therefore I have seen thy face, as though I had seen the face of God, and thou wast pleased with me. Genesis 39:4 And Joseph found grace in his sight, and he served him: and he made him overseer over his house, and all that he had he put into his hand. Exodus 33:13 Now therefore, I pray thee, if I have found grace in thy sight, shew me now thy way, that I may know thee, that I may find grace in thy sight: and consider that this nation is thy people. 1 Samuel 20:3 And David sware moreover, and said, Thy father certainly knoweth that I have found grace in thine eyes; and he saith, Let not Jonathan know this, lest he be grieved: but truly as the LORD liveth, and as thy soul liveth, there is but a step between me and death. Psalm 84:11 For the LORD God is a sun and shield: the LORD will give grace and glory: no good thing will he withhold from them that walk uprightly. This is why at least 27 times in the apostolic letters it says things like 2 John 1:3 Grace be with you, mercy, and peace, from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.

Why are you even posting to me. Have I not told you before that untill you agree with me to a system of interpretation you have nothing to say to me. None of your scriptural interpretations have any validity since there is no way to verify the validity of your asumptions.

[Lightenup]

Quote (martian @ April 02 2008,15:28)

Quote (Lightenup @ April 02 2008,09:58) Quote (martian @ April 01 2008,10:51) Since a doctrine is being formed on the basis of this  and a few other scriptures, what is the end conclusion of that doctrien. 1. How does it support the plan of God? Hello Martian, While I was at the museum this afternoon I had a thought that might help answer how the pre-existence of the Son of God and His role in creation supported the plan of God. We are told that in Job 38:2-7 that the angels were witnesses to the “fattening” of the earth because that is who is referred to in v.7.  Well, supposing that the only begotten Son of God (Jesus) did in fact have a role in creation as He existed in a heavenly body as it implies in Is 51:16 and other places.  He performed that role with the witness of the other sons of God, the angels.  Therefore, because the angels were there and witnessed this, they knew that Christ was unique to them and above them.  God established Christ priority to creation and to the angels through this.  That is a reason or part of the reason to show how His pre-existence supports the plan of God. Job 38:2-7 2 “Who is this that darkens counsel By words without knowledge? 3 “Now gird up your loins like a man, And I will ask you, and you instruct Me! 4 “Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell Me, if you have understanding, 5 Who set its measurements? Since you know. Or who stretched the line on it? 6 “On what were its bases sunk? Or who laid its cornerstone, 7 When the morning stars sang together And all the sons of God shouted for joy? NASU Isa 51:14-16 15 “For I am the LORD your God, who stirs up the sea and its waves roar (the LORD of hosts is His name). 16 “I have put My words in your mouth and have covered you with the shadow of My hand, to establish the heavens, to found the earth, and to say to Zion, 'You are My people.'” NASU I must go now to take my daughter to her softball game and I will have some time for “bleacher meditation” regarding the rest of your questions.  It will probably be a very slow moving game with alot of walks.  The team's strategy depends on stealing bases to get the runs scored.:)  Not too many hits!  Oh well, more time to concentrate on your questions. Before I continue to reply let me try again to explain the way in which the Hebrews think. You made post a few days ago in which you said your mindset was to act in love toward those on this board. This implies a choice on your point. It is possible for another action to occur to you. With the Hebrew mindset nothing outside of their culture occurs to them. This is amplified by the centuries of separation from the other cultures of the         world. The Western idea of creation in which something comes from nothing would be a completely foreign concept to the Hebrew thinkers. The idea of fattening carries the concept of bringing to fruition or bearing fruit or ripening of the fruit. The Hebrew agrees with the idea of Christ having part in creation but in the Hebrew way of thinking He takes part in the bringing to fruition the plan of God. Remember too that the Hebrews view objects by virtue of their function. When you conceptualise the Earth, you see the planet with all of its minerals and physicality. The Hebrew views the Earth as the place that houses the proving ground for the sons of God. He views it by its function. The heavens and the Earth were brought about to bring about the completion of the plan of God to mature sons of God. Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. Before I go farther, I am not going to deal with the “us” in this verse. I can do that at another time. The word “after” in this verse carries the meaning at the end or edge and the word likeness means like the father. So we are made in the image of God and in the end will be like the father. The mechanical translation of this verse says “and Elohiym (multiplicity of power) said, we will make a human in our image and like our likeness…..” Verse 27 clearifies what God did. Genesis 1:27?God fattened man in His own image, in the image of God He fattened him; male and female He fattened them. He fattened the image, but not the likeness. WE were brought to completion in the image but not in being like him. That was the process begun in the garden of Eden. That fattening of the likeness of God is still an ongoing process. A process each of us goes through to one extant or another. Now to Isa 51:14-16 15 “For I am the LORD your God, who stirs up the sea and its waves roar (the LORD of hosts is His name). 16 “I have put My words in your mouth and have covered you with the shadow of My hand, to establish the heavens, to found the earth, and to say to Zion, 'You are My people.'” Look at three words in this verse. Earth (functionally) = the place of maturing for the sons of God or simply the maturing of the sons of God. Establish = To perform a work or experience the yoke. Found = To lay the foundation of a household. Now with the proper translation – “For I am the LORD your God, who stirs up the sea and its waves roar (the LORD of hosts is His name). 16 “I have put My words in your mouth and have covered you with the shadow of My hand, to perform a work and experience the yoke of the heavens, to lay the foundation of the family wherein my children will be matured , and to say to Zion, 'You are My people.'” There is some question as to this being a prophecy about Christ or about all of God’s people. Since we share in the glory of Jesus it could be both. This verse is not about Christ taking part in a physical creation but about Christ being an integral part of bringing about the completion of God’s plan for His people. Tie it in will all kinds of other verses. We are all part of the Temple of God. Jesus is the chief cornerstone. The 12 apostles are foundation stones. Jesus speaks of being yoked and asks us to take on the same yoke. I am not going to deal with all of the Job you quoted just two portions. “Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Laid in this verse has a wide application but one of it’s primary meanings is to set into place. Foundation carries the meaning of a plan like a blueprint. Earth = maturing of the sons of God. Again the proper translation would be something like – “Where were you when I set into place  the plan or blueprint for the maturing of the sons of God?   This ties precisely with John 1 in which the logos (intentions or plan) of God was with Him from the beginning and that Jesus is the fulfillment of the plan. The logos is the blueprint in the mind of God. Jesus is the completed building/Temple. Or who laid its cornerstone, when the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy? The cornerstone is Jesus. Set into place by God. At the end of Christ ministry the cornerstone was set into place for the eternal Temple of God (us). At this time the son s of God rejoiced. John 8:56?” Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.” Hebrews 11 speaks of all the children/sons of God that came before us. These make up the cloud of witnesses that look upon us now and saw the time of Christ and rejoiced. As to your other post on “in” or “by” it is really not relavent either way when one considers what create means.

Hi Martian,
Isaiah 51 might very well be speaking about Moses and /or Israel but I think it could possibly be speaking of Christ since it refers to creation. I know that plan or blueprint could refer to the will of God, I was commenting on your idea that foundation means blueprint and I think that foundation instead means the beginning of the actual plan as it is brought into existance, it is bringing the plan to life so to speak.

We see God's plan differently and it is subjective on both of our parts. We have theories, both of us. I believe that the Son of God's actual existence in the Old Testament was part of God's plan and you don't. I believe that the Most High God used His existing living Son to build up the earth in Genesis to demonstrate how a living being can be used to do mighty things when depending fully on the Most High God and also to establish the Son above the angels. It is how I understand some of the will of God. It is my understanding and doesn't happen to be yours. I give you verses and you rewrite them to fit your understanding. Like, you say that create means to fatten, or earth means the place to mature people, or foundation means blueprint. I am not finding these definitions of yours in my dictionaries or in my commentaries, or Strong's definitions, or in my many Bible versions. Now, I am speaking to me as well as you, but can we be more careful to speak not in a dogmatic way when we speak our theories?

You continually speak of how the Hebrews think. Will you please list your references to back this up. Do you expect me to believe you just because you say so or a website says so.

I am interested in how you are going to rewrite this next verse:

John 1:15-16
15 John testified about Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ' He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.'”
NASU

In my understanding, this speaks of Christ existing before John existed and we know that Mary (Christ's mother) became pregnant after Elizabeth (John's mother). That is clear to me that Christ was a living heavenly being before His conception within Mary. If you say that, yes, He existed but only as the plan and purpose of God before John was born then I disagree. I believe we were all pre-existing as the plan and purpose of God before we became alive, even John. I think that it is about Christ being a living heavenly being in existence even before John's conception. So, if someone was alive before their conception in their mother, well that would be unique and different than mankind in general and make Christ more than just a man, in my opinion.

I am going to be really busy for the rest of this month as I try to finish a project that I have been working on for two years now. So, you might not hear much from me for awhile.

I hope that you recover well and know that I have been praying for your health. Blessings to you!

[GeneBalthrop]

To all…..Here's a question that might seem off subject, but if you can answer it corretly you will know who and what Jesus is and who and what God the Father is.

What is GRACE?

It's not as obivious as you may think.

[martian]

Quote (Lightenup @ April 16 2008,03:45)

Quote (martian @ April 02 2008,15:28) Quote (Lightenup @ April 02 2008,09:58) Quote (martian @ April 01 2008,10:51) Since a doctrine is being formed on the basis of this  and a few other scriptures, what is the end conclusion of that doctrien. 1. How does it support the plan of God? Hello Martian, While I was at the museum this afternoon I had a thought that might help answer how the pre-existence of the Son of God and His role in creation supported the plan of God. We are told that in Job 38:2-7 that the angels were witnesses to the “fattening” of the earth because that is who is referred to in v.7.  Well, supposing that the only begotten Son of God (Jesus) did in fact have a role in creation as He existed in a heavenly body as it implies in Is 51:16 and other places.  He performed that role with the witness of the other sons of God, the angels.  Therefore, because the angels were there and witnessed this, they knew that Christ was unique to them and above them.  God established Christ priority to creation and to the angels through this.  That is a reason or part of the reason to show how His pre-existence supports the plan of God. Job 38:2-7 2 “Who is this that darkens counsel By words without knowledge? 3 “Now gird up your loins like a man, And I will ask you, and you instruct Me! 4 “Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell Me, if you have understanding, 5 Who set its measurements? Since you know. Or who stretched the line on it? 6 “On what were its bases sunk? Or who laid its cornerstone, 7 When the morning stars sang together And all the sons of God shouted for joy? NASU Isa 51:14-16 15 “For I am the LORD your God, who stirs up the sea and its waves roar (the LORD of hosts is His name). 16 “I have put My words in your mouth and have covered you with the shadow of My hand, to establish the heavens, to found the earth, and to say to Zion, 'You are My people.'” NASU I must go now to take my daughter to her softball game and I will have some time for “bleacher meditation” regarding the rest of your questions.  It will probably be a very slow moving game with alot of walks.  The team's strategy depends on stealing bases to get the runs scored.:)  Not too many hits!  Oh well, more time to concentrate on your questions. Before I continue to reply let me try again to explain the way in which the Hebrews think. You made post a few days ago in which you said your mindset was to act in love toward those on this board. This implies a choice on your point. It is possible for another action to occur to you. With the Hebrew mindset nothing outside of their culture occurs to them. This is amplified by the centuries of separation from the other cultures of the         world. The Western idea of creation in which something comes from nothing would be a completely foreign concept to the Hebrew thinkers. The idea of fattening carries the concept of bringing to fruition or bearing fruit or ripening of the fruit. The Hebrew agrees with the idea of Christ having part in creation but in the Hebrew way of thinking He takes part in the bringing to fruition the plan of God. Remember too that the Hebrews view objects by virtue of their function. When you conceptualise the Earth, you see the planet with all of its minerals and physicality. The Hebrew views the Earth as the place that houses the proving ground for the sons of God. He views it by its function. The heavens and the Earth were brought about to bring about the completion of the plan of God to mature sons of God. Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. Before I go farther, I am not going to deal with the “us” in this verse. I can do that at another time. The word “after” in this verse carries the meaning at the end or edge and the word likeness means like the father. So we are made in the image of God and in the end will be like the father. The mechanical translation of this verse says “and Elohiym (multiplicity of power) said, we will make a human in our image and like our likeness…..” Verse 27 clearifies what God did. Genesis 1:27?God fattened man in His own image, in the image of God He fattened him; male and female He fattened them. He fattened the image, but not the likeness. WE were brought to completion in the image but not in being like him. That was the process begun in the garden of Eden. That fattening of the likeness of God is still an ongoing process. A process each of us goes through to one extant or another. Now to Isa 51:14-16 15 “For I am the LORD your God, who stirs up the sea and its waves roar (the LORD of hosts is His name). 16 “I have put My words in your mouth and have covered you with the shadow of My hand, to establish the heavens, to found the earth, and to say to Zion, 'You are My people.'” Look at three words in this verse. Earth (functionally) = the place of maturing for the sons of God or simply the maturing of the sons of God. Establish = To perform a work or experience the yoke. Found = To lay the foundation of a household. Now with the proper translation – “For I am the LORD your God, who stirs up the sea and its waves roar (the LORD of hosts is His name). 16 “I have put My words in your mouth and have covered you with the shadow of My hand, to perform a work and experience the yoke of the heavens, to lay the foundation of the family wherein my children will be matured , and to say to Zion, 'You are My people.'” There is some question as to this being a prophecy about Christ or about all of God’s people. Since we share in the glory of Jesus it could be both. This verse is not about Christ taking part in a physical creation but about Christ being an integral part of bringing about the completion of God’s plan for His people. Tie it in will all kinds of other verses. We are all part of the Temple of God. Jesus is the chief cornerstone. The 12 apostles are foundation stones. Jesus speaks of being yoked and asks us to take on the same yoke. I am not going to deal with all of the Job you quoted just two portions. “Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Laid in this verse has a wide application but one of it’s primary meanings is to set into place. Foundation carries the meaning of a plan like a blueprint. Earth = maturing of the sons of God. Again the proper translation would be something like – “Where were you when I set into place  the plan or blueprint for the maturing of the sons of God?   This ties precisely with John 1 in which the logos (intentions or plan) of God was with Him from the beginning and that Jesus is the fulfillment of the plan. The logos is the blueprint in the mind of God. Jesus is the completed building/Temple. Or who laid its cornerstone, when the morning stars sang to gether and all the sons of God shouted for joy? The cornerstone is Jesus. Set into place by God. At the end of Christ ministry the cornerstone was set into place for the eternal Temple of God (us). At this time the sons of God rejoiced. John 8:56?” Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.” Hebrews 11 speaks of all the children/sons of God that came before us. These make up the cloud of witnesses that look upon us now and saw the time of Christ and rejoiced. As to your other post on “in” or “by” it is really not relavent either way when one considers what create means. Hi Martian, Isaiah 51 might very well be speaking about Moses and /or Israel but I think it could possibly be speaking of Christ since it refers to creation.  I know that plan or blueprint could refer to the will of God, I was commenting on your idea that foundation means blueprint and I think that foundation instead means the beginning of the actual plan as it is brought into existance, it is bringing the plan to life so to speak. We see God's plan differently and it is subjective on both of our parts.  We have theories, both of us.  I believe that the Son of God's actual existence in the Old Testament was part of God's plan and you don't.  I believe that the Most High God used His existing living Son to build up the earth in Genesis to demonstrate how a living being can be used to do mighty things when depending fully on the Most High God and also to establish the Son above the angels.  It is how I understand some of the will of God.  It is my understanding and doesn't happen to be yours.  I give you verses and you rewrite them to fit your understanding. Like, you say that create means to fatten, or earth means the place to mature people, or foundation means blueprint.  I am not finding these definitions of yours in my dictionaries or in my commentaries, or Strong's definitions, or in my many Bible versions. Now, I am speaking to me as well as you, but can we be more careful to speak not in a dogmatic way when we speak our theories? You continually speak of how the Hebrews think.  Will you please list your references to back this up.  Do you expect me to believe you just because you say so or a website says so.   I am interested in how you are going to rewrite this next verse: John 1:15-16 15 John testified about Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ' He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.'” NASU In my understanding, this speaks of Christ existing before John existed and we know that Mary (Christ's mother) became pregnant after Elizabeth (John's mother).  That is clear to me that Christ was a living heavenly being before His conception within Mary.  If you say that, yes, He existed but only as the plan and purpose of God before John was born then I disagree.  I believe we were all pre-existing as the plan and purpose of God before we became alive, even John.  I think that it is about Christ being a living heavenly being in existence even before John's conception.  So, if someone was alive before their conception in their mother, well that would be unique and different than mankind in general and make Christ more than just a man, in my opinion. I am going to be really busy for the rest of this month as I try to finish a project that I have been working on for two years now.  So, you might not hear much from me for awhile. I hope that you recover well and know that I have been praying for your health.  Blessings to you! There is no material in Isa 51 that eludes to Jesus. The only reason why you put Jesus into that section of verse is because you are filtering it through your ideas of doctrine. You took a small section of 51 out of context and then based on your doctrine stated that it referred to Jesus. You did not let scripture interpret scripture by examining the Red Sea story to verify just who did part the Red Sea. You assume that because creation is discussed that it must refer to Jesus again based on your pre-conceived idea of doctrine. You are not seeking the truth of scripture you are looking for proof of what you have already decided is the truth. This is the most corrupt way to study the word. Since you have shown this level of dishonesty (even after agreeing with some honest principles) I do not feel inclined to waste my time showing you anymore. Live in your delusion. That is your choice. As I have posted on several occasions there are those that are doctrinal rather then being scriptural. TYhose that will agree with sound interpretain untill it touches there doctrine then they toss those principles out.

There is no material in Isa 51 that eludes to Jesus. The only reason why you put Jesus into that section of verse is because you are filtering it through your ideas of doctrine.
You took a small section of 51 out of context and then based on your doctrine stated that it referred to Jesus.
You did not let scripture interpret scripture by examining the Red Sea story to verify just who did part the Red Sea. You assume that because creation is discussed that it must refer to Jesus again based on your pre-conceived idea of doctrine. You are not seeking the truth of scripture you are looking for proof of what you have already decided is the truth. This is the most corrupt way to study the word.

Since you have shown this level of dishonesty (even after agreeing with some honest principles) I do not feel inclined to waste my time showing you anymore. Live in your delusion. That is your choice.

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