The Trinity Doctrine

[martian]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 03 2008,11:45)

Quote (martian @ April 03 2008,10:04) Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 03 2008,09:25) Hi martian, Was God really with his intentions or plans in the beginning? Can we be with our thoughts or do they perish with us? Speaking is an action that begets. The Word was with God. So far, lightenup is the only one on here that I konw takes scipture interpretation seriously. I do not believe you do and therefor cannot take anything you post seriously. You have refused to consider the original languages or cultures unless it agrees with your preconceived idea of docvtrine. Everything you interpret is funneled through your doctrine. If it lines you use it. If it does not you ignore it. Hi martian, But the standard you offer for all these things is yourself and your views. Why?

If you do not like my principles of interpretation then tell me why or offer some of your own. Untill you do that you have nothing to say to me in way of interpretation. You are just voicing your opinions.
You do not want to use any honest principles or tie yourself down to them because you want to be as dishonest as you need to be to support your doctrine Every interpretation you post is filtered through your doctrine. You are not interested in truth but only in proof.

Post with me all you want, but till you agree with some form of honest interpretation, I will not engage.

[NickHassan]

Hi martian,
You say
“Every interpretation you post is filtered through your doctrine. “
Mirror anyone?

[martian]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 03 2008,16:42)

Hi martian, You say “Every interpretation you post is filtered through your doctrine. “ Mirror anyone?

Stop being silly
Like alittle boy saying — “I did not but you did.”

[martian]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 03 2008,16:42)

Hi martian, You say “Every interpretation you post is filtered through your doctrine. “ Mirror anyone?

I challenge you Nick to show me where I filter anything through my doctrine. I have posted everything with back up .

[NickHassan]

Hi martian,
We come to learn and not lecture.

[Lightenup]

Quote (martian @ April 02 2008,15:28)

Quote (Lightenup @ April 02 2008,09:58) Quote (martian @ April 01 2008,10:51) Since a doctrine is being formed on the basis of this  and a few other scriptures, what is the end conclusion of that doctrien. 1. How does it support the plan of God? Hello Martian, While I was at the museum this afternoon I had a thought that might help answer how the pre-existence of the Son of God and His role in creation supported the plan of God. We are told that in Job 38:2-7 that the angels were witnesses to the “fattening” of the earth because that is who is referred to in v.7.  Well, supposing that the only begotten Son of God (Jesus) did in fact have a role in creation as He existed in a heavenly body as it implies in Is 51:16 and other places.  He performed that role with the witness of the other sons of God, the angels.  Therefore, because the angels were there and witnessed this, they knew that Christ was unique to them and above them.  God established Christ priority to creation and to the angels through this.  That is a reason or part of the reason to show how His pre-existence supports the plan of God. Job 38:2-7 2 “Who is this that darkens counsel By words without knowledge? 3 “Now gird up your loins like a man, And I will ask you, and you instruct Me! 4 “Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell Me, if you have understanding, 5 Who set its measurements? Since you know. Or who stretched the line on it? 6 “On what were its bases sunk? Or who laid its cornerstone, 7 When the morning stars sang together And all the sons of God shouted for joy? NASU I am not going to deal with all of the Job you quoted just two portions. “Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Laid in this verse has a wide application but one of it’s primary meanings is to set into place. Foundation carries the meaning of a plan like a blueprint. Earth = maturing of the sons of God. Again the proper translation would be something like – “Where were you when I set into place  the plan or blueprint for the maturing of the sons of God?   This ties precisely with John 1 in which the logos (intentions or plan) of God was with Him from the beginning and that Jesus is the fulfillment of the plan. The logos is the blueprint in the mind of God. Jesus is the completed building/Temple.

Hi Martian,
Here is your principle #17 on how to translate:
17. When defining a particular word in scripture, first assume the primary definition of the word is correct, as can be found in a Bible dictionary.

When you write:
Foundation carries the meaning of a plan like a blueprint.
Earth = maturing of the sons of God.
What Bible dictionary do you use or even what reference material?

I do not find these definitions in Bible Dictionaries or encyclopedias and I have looked at: Fausset's Bible Dictionary, New Unger's Bible Dictionary, International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia, and
International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia

For this post, I am going to focus on your idea of foundation meaning “plan” or “blueprint”.  This is what I have found to be the meaning of “when I laid the foundations of”  from Job 38:4 in Strong's and then the word “foundation” in a Bible dictionary:
OT:3245
yacad (yaw-sad'); a primitive root; to set (literally or figuratively); intensively, to found; reflexively, to sit down together, i.e. settle, consult:

KJV – appoint, take counsel, establish, (lay the, lay for a) found (-ation), instruct, lay, ordain, set, sure.

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, Biblesoft and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

FOUNDATION. The lowest part of a building, and on which it rests.

Figurative. By foundation is sometimes understood the origin (Job 4:19), where men are represented as dwelling in clay houses, whose foundation, i.e., origin, was in the dust (cf. Gen 2:7; 3:19). It is also used in the sense of beginning, as “the foundation of the world” (Matt 13:35; 25:34; etc.). The expression is illustrative of Christ: “Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone, a tested stone,” etc. (Isa 28:16; 1 Cor 3:11); of the doctrines of the apostles (Eph 2:20); the first principles of the gospel (Heb 6:1-2); the Christian religion (2 Tim 2:19); of the righteous (Prov 10:25). The wise man is one who lays his foundation upon a rock (Luke 6:48); the good minister, who builds on the true foundation-Jesus Christ (1 Cor 3:10-11).
(from The New Unger's Bible Dictionary. Originally published by Moody Press of Chicago, Illinois. Copyright © 1988.)

I have also looked up “plan” and “blueprint”.  I did not find the word “blueprint” in the Bible but I did find “plan”.
Plan is from many Hebrew words and one Greek word and I will list the more relevant Strong's numbers and definitions:

OT:8403
tabniyth (tab-neeth'); from OT:1129; structure; by implication, a model, resemblance:
KJV – figure, form, likeness, pattern, similitude.

OT:6098
`etsah (ay-tsaw'); from OT:3289; advice; by implication, plan; also prudence:
KJV – advice, advisement, counsel (l- [or]), purpose.

OT:2803
chashab (khaw-shab'); a primitive root; properly, to plait or interpenetrate, i.e. (literally) to weave or (gen.) to fabricate; figuratively, to plot or contrive (usually in a malicious sense); hence (from the mental effort) to think, regard, value, compute:
KJV – (make) account (of), conceive, consider, count, cunning (man, work, workman), devise, esteem, find out, forecast, hold, imagine, impute, invent, be like, mean, purpose, reckon (-ing be made), regard, think.

OT:4284
machashabah (makh-ash-aw-baw'); or machashebeth (makh-ash-eh'-beth); from OT:2803; a contrivance, i.e. (concretely) a texture, machine, or (abstractly) intention, plan (whether bad, a plot; or good, advice):
KJV – cunning (work), curious work, device (-sed), imagination, invented, means, purpose, thought.

Now for the New Testament:
NT:1012

boule (boo-lay'); from NT:1014; volition, i.e. (objectively) advice, or (by implication) purpose:
KJV –  advise, counsel, will.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, Biblesoft and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

So, in conclusion of your idea of “foundation carries the meaning of a plan like a blueprint.” I disagree.  

Also, I can not find in any of the above resources your meaning that earth=maturing of the sons of God.  So, according to my sources, I am not eager to embrace your idea of what the  “proper translation” should be.

[Not3in1]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 04 2008,06:14)

Hi martian, We come to learn and not lecture.

Brother Nick,

Why do you constantly argue with the brethren? I have been viewing page after page and what I notice is mainly tit-for-tat conversations with YOU. Why is this? Is business slow?

You may want to review the logs from when you were on vacation and take note of the lengthly, helpful dialogs that were taking place among many members here. As soon as you returned it became “fight with Nick” on almost every thread. Some are obviously helped, it's not all banter. I know you have a heart for the gospel, but please try to encourage instead of discourage. Better yet, try to have conversations instead of picking fights!

[Not3in1]

Martain,

I enjoy your posts tremendously. It takes a lot of thought and time to contribute what you do – thank you.
Mandy

[TimothyVI]

Hi Mandy,
You have returned to the believers place.
Love to see you here.
Love you,
Tim

[Not3in1]

Hey Tim,

I confess that my belief system has been a bit fickle over the last 6 months to a year.  I'm still searching, but I've decided that my searching isn't necessarily a declaration against anything.  I'm just checking stuff out.  Thanks for welcoming me back (you, too, Irene), I really appreciate you guys!    

Love you too bro,
Mandy

PS:  Nick, I didn't mean to be so outspoken and harsh with you earlier – forgive me?  Perhaps my maturity level will rise sometime soon?   But it's just been disheartening to see the conversations go downhill and turn into a fight with you so much of the time.  So many members don't even contribute anymore because of it.  I've begged certain folks to come back and give input, but they refuse because of the constant hackling they receive.  Maybe you could just let conversations grow and develop before you cut and jab?  Please give it some thought?  I've just been too discouraged about this to not say anything, I'm sorry.

[NickHassan]

Hi martian,
You say
“Foundation carries the meaning of a plan like a blueprint.”
Sorry but the foundation stone is the first stone laid in fulfillment of a plan.

[NickHassan]

Hi,
This old useless and speculative theory was gathering dust till WJ brought it up in another thread.
Hi NH

Had you noticed that many who turned to “Unitarianism” and “Deism” could not rap their natural brains around the inerrancy of the scriptures and the concept of a “Triune God” found therein?

Years ago there was a popular statement in the USA that accurately describes the belief of the Deist.

“GOD IS DEAD”!!!

He still prefers the teachings of men it would seem.

[Not3in1]

Actually, WJ just prefers a different interpretation of men.

You chose one interpretation of scripture, and he chose another.

Scripture lends itself to BOTH VIEWS.

[seek and you will find]

Mandy! We are talking about the trinity view here, right. W.J. believes in it, but is it right? We are to prove all things before we accept it as gospel truth, right? So His view can be proven to be not according to the Bible. And it was Tertullian who came up with it.
Peace and Love Mrs.

[Not3in1]

Quote (seek and you will find @ April 12 2008,18:34)

Mandy! We are talking about the trinity view here, right. W.J. believes in it, but is it right? We are to prove all things before we accept it as gospel truth, right? So His view can be proven to be not according to the Bible. And it was Tertullian who came up with it. Peace and Love Mrs.

Sis,

Look at how many pages this thread has come to? Do you think it is as simple as you say it is? No.

WJ also thinks that the bible proves his view. He would be correct.

The bible also proves the opposite view. Ironic, huh?

[seek and you will find]

Quote (Not3in1 @ April 12 2008,18:40)

Quote (seek and you will find @ April 12 2008,18:34) Mandy! We are talking about the trinity view here, right. W.J. believes in it, but is it right? We are to prove all things before we accept it as gospel truth, right? So His view can be proven to be not according to the Bible. And it was Tertullian who came up with it. Peace and Love Mrs. Sis, Look at how many pages this thread has come to?  Do you think it is as simple as you say it is?  No. WJ also thinks that the bible proves his view.  He would be correct.   The bible also proves the opposite view.  Ironic, huh?

Mandy! That view has not been proven, as far as I have seen, Please bring it up, would like to see it.
Love Irene

[NickHassan]

Hi mandy,
So you have joined Pilate in saying
“what is truth?”

There is truth mandy and it is the bible.

Jn17
17Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
wake up.

[Not3in1]

Quote (seek and you will find @ April 12 2008,19:06)

Quote (Not3in1 @ April 12 2008,18:40) Quote (seek and you will find @ April 12 2008,18:34) Mandy! We are talking about the trinity view here, right. W.J. believes in it, but is it right? We are to prove all things before we accept it as gospel truth, right? So His view can be proven to be not according to the Bible. And it was Tertullian who came up with it. Peace and Love Mrs. Sis, Look at how many pages this thread has come to?  Do you think it is as simple as you say it is?  No. WJ also thinks that the bible proves his view.  He would be correct.   The bible also proves the opposite view.  Ironic, huh? Mandy! That view has not been proven, as far as I have seen, Please bring it up, would like to see it. Love Irene

No thanks.  All you have to do is review all these pages here.

WJ, Isaiah and other's have made excellent arguments, using scripture, to prove the Trinity.  As far as I am concerned, after reviewing the evidence (over the past 5 years), I have concluded that both views can be seen in scripture.

Once again, “truth” has evaded/eluded us.  It is what we want it to be.  Or more accurately, what we want to see.  Interpretation is king.

[Not3in1]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 12 2008,20:40)

Hi mandy, So you have joined Pilate in saying “what is truth?”   There is truth mandy and it is the bible. Jn17 17Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. wake up.

Oh, I'm awake. I'd say that I am more awake these days than I have been my whole indoctrinated life!

What is truth? Yes, I am there. For so many it means so many different things. Who are you to tell them that they are wrong and you are right? You have the bible! That makes you right? Sorry, don't mean to chuckle, but I have to. Other's have their sacred writings and it doesn't prove that they are any more right and in possession of the “truth” than it does you.

I believe that Jesus is truth. I'm just not convinced that he is the only truth (even tho the bible says it – of course the bible says it – just as other sacred writings subscribe to their hero).

[seek and you will find]

Quote (t8 @ June 03 2002,19:20)

Thankyou for your time effort in talking about the trinity doctrine. I was going to write about the points, that the last 2 writings have made. But I ended writing the following: (I will however endeavour to look at what has been said discuss the points you have made. I want to pointout that I do not believe the trinity doctrine, but neither am I a Jehovahs Witness and I have never been a Jehovahs Witness. I hold to know man-made creed, nor do I belong to any man-made organisation or institution that makes itself out be church. I am simply a person who was taken out of darkness and shown the light. I am a believer in God, Jesus Christ his Son, and believe that Jesus is the only way to our Father God, as God is too pure to look upon or fellowship with evil. But through his Son we can all be redeemed. When I first believed in the existance of God and the fact that Jesus is the only begotten Son of God, I had a very simple faith. This faith was great enough however to witness miracles on an almost daily basis. But this amazing life nearly came to an end, when I made the classic mistake of listening to the words of Men and believing that I had to accept these words in order to please God. This was of course based on the fear of man. I was told that I had to go to Church every Sunday and I had to believe that God was a trinity. I blindly followed these precepts with little or no proof that such things were so. Eventually I myself even argued with people who questioned such things and I felt that it was my duty to help/correct these people. At that time I became bored with my walk with God, as I seemed to lose touch with God, I felt dead inside again. While sitting there comtemplating my sitution, the thought crossed my mind that I could give up and return to the world from where I came. But I came to my senses and decided that the problem was me, not God. I reasoned that God created flowers and many beautiful things, and I realised that God is Love and He doesn't change. It was me that had changed. I tried to trace the exact moment that my faith dwindled and I realised that it was when I started listening to mans laws without checking the scriptures or asking God if it was so. I then decided to break free of the religious order around me and seek the one who shone his light on me in the beginning. Once again I felt the presence of God and I realised that I was free again. I vowed never to make that mistake again. Since then I have questioned all matters that I believed with regards to my faith. To seek truth is to seek Jesus himself. If we do not seek truth then we are not really seeking Christ, but we are looking for a religion or a form of godliness, in which to feel comfortable. About 10 years ago I believed that God was challenging some of my beliefs that I had accepted blindly from other Christians and also heard in some sermons. One of those doctrines was the trinity. Deep down in my heart I felt that something didn't seen right about it, but to tell you the truth I felt scared to question this doctrine. I felt that everyone would think that I had departed the way. I started asking questions about it, and the response was just as I thought. Everyone I asked that believed said that I shouldn't question such a thing. They showed me some vague scriptures and concluded that God is to big for us to understand. I felt that if I didn't accept what they told me, I would be in for a serious rebuking. So I kept quiet about it for about 10 years. It seemed strange to me that this was the response, as this is contrary to scripture. Paul commended those that checked out everything he said with scripture. I couldn't understand the negative reaction with questioning this doctrine. I thought that the trinity doctrine was especially questionable, considering that it was some three hundred years after the last book in the bible was written. That alone should arouse at least some suspicion in those that are careful in guarding their doctrine. In the last few years after passing through some big trials in my life, I felt the challenge to look at my doctrine closely. I knew that I had to stop running and face up to some of my beliefs, the biggest one being the trinity doctrine and another one was what we think Church is. I started with scripture. I went to the Bible Gateway site and typed in the word God and read through quickly the scriptures that were listed. This exercise was interesting, because the thing that stood out was that God is one and there is no other. I then typed in Jesus and there wasn't one scripture that said he was the Most High God. I thought that was rather interesting too, especially considering that the trinity doctrine is suppose to be a pillar of the Christian faith. So for now at least it appeared that the trinity doctrine wasn't an obvious doctrine, rather it was either not taught at all, or it was hidden somewhat, in either the original Hebrew, Greek or Aramaic or perhaps hinted at. So I decided to immerse myself in the scriptures. I even purchased a Strongs Concordance and other materials to help me understand the meanings of each word. My honest intention was to know the truth, I was, and I am ready now to accept the truth even if it proves me wrong, because I realise that pride defends our own opinions and pride doesn't accept truth when we are wrong. Pride blinds us in ignorance of truth. Without any bias, I compiled a writing called “Is the trinity doctrine correct”. I discovered much to my surprise, a teaching that has largely been ignored by Christians, but was taught over and over in the scriptures by Jesus and Paul. That teaching is this: The Father is the Most High God, Jesus the Word, the Christ, the Messiah came from God, and we (followers/believers) come from Christ. God is the Most High God, Jesus is the Image of God and we are the image of Christ. God exists inside and outside of creation, Jesus sits on the Fathers Throne and we will sit on Jesus throne. We are at the right hand of Christ, Jesus is at the right hand of God, God is at the right hand of no-one. The Father is the Gardner, Jesus is the Vine, we are the branches. The Father is the Most High God, Jesus is the Mediator and we are Mankind.  The Most High God our Father, created all things through Jesus the Word, the result is creation. We are part of that creation, but we are made in the image of God, because we are like Jesus. The Son speaks on behalf of God, we speak on behalf of Christ. The Father is the Almighty God. Jesus is the Mighty God and we are gods. Jesus is the only begotten of the Father (born of the Father), we are born of Christ. There are many god's but for us there is but one God the Father. The word God can refer to the Father, the Son, Man, Satan, Idols and Angels. We must read each scripture in context. Jesus called his Father his God and our God. He said this on Earth and in Heaven. Jesus tells us that his Father is greater than himself. There are things that the Son does not know, but only the Father knows The Son is subject to the Father, and only does what his Father does, and speaks what he hears his Father speaking. God gives all things to the Son, Jesus doesn't give it to himself. All good things originate in the Father. I challenge anyone to fit the trinity doctrine with these points. I can also provide you with scriptural reference to all these points, if necessary. Now I want to point out some things regarding the trinity doctrine. The word trinity is not mentioned in t he scriptures, nor is it taught by anyone including Jesus and Paul. The trinity doctrine states that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are all equal and co-eternal. This is contrary to scripture. The trinity doctrine became official some three hundred years after the last book in the bible was written. The trinity doctrine became official upon one man's decision. That person was not Christ, but Constantine a Roman Emperor. He was trying to solve a conflict that needed a final ruling, lest it weaken the empire through division. He had little or no understanding of the subject at hand. Those who drew the doctrine did not claim divine inspiration as far as I know. The Jews appose the trinity doctrine on the basis that there is only one God as stated many times in the Old Testament. The Egyptians worshipped a trinity. When Constantine made the trinity doctrine official by order of the Roman Empire, the most influential person promoting the trinity doctrine was Athanasius, who was from Alexandria in Egypt. The Babylonians worshipped a trinity too. They also worshipped the Mother of God and money. Is this starting to sound familiar. Many believe that Christianity destroyed Paganism, but the truth is that Christianity assimilated paganism. Christianity took over many of the Pagan festivals and changed them to Christian ones. In other words a Christian appearance, but a pagan heart. Paganism is idolatory and trinity gods were worshipped in paganism. The scriptures tell us about a mystery called Babylon. We are told to come out of her in the last days. Babylon comes from Babel. God divided men by language because they said in their hearts “Let us make a name for ourselves”. They also built the tower to save themselves incase God flooded the earth again. Babel is the root of self salvation and pride in ones own name. Babylon worshipped the Mother of God, they worshipped money, false god's and even a trinity. Now tell me the difference between this and many so-called churches today. These churches made a name for themselves even above Christs own name. They tried to build their steeples up to heaven. They need money to function, (buying and selling as apposed to giving and receiving). The biggest one worships the Mother of God and is the chief proponent of the trinity doctrine. So what do you think God did about it. Well he divided men into languages because of Babel, and so he has divided Christianity into many languages, which we commonly call Denominations, which is just a fancy word for division. Divisions are necessary if God wants to lessen mans iniquity, because man is stronger when he is united. God wants to unify the Church, but he doesn't want to join us to the Harlot. Now, if we look back into history, we can see that the trinity doctrine was the basis of the first creed, which many denominations hold as a pillar of their creeds today. History shows us clearly that creed followed creed and eventually icons and idols were ruled as acceptable for worship, so long as they represented God. This wisdom has revealed itself as idolatry as time has proven. The trinity doctrine also lead some to believe that if Jesus is the Most High God, then Mary must be the Mother of God. This idolatory exist today in so-called modern and civilised times. The worship of Mary lead to worshipping of Saints, and this conduct helped give rise to Islam, as Christianity was seen by Mohammad as a religion that worships Mary and the Saints. This is written in the Koran. Christianity (the system) is actually part of Babylon or under her influence. Babylon was originally a city that God destroyed because of idolatory, prostitution, self-glorification, self-sufficiency and pride. Do you think that God is happy when he is likened to a triangle symbol or formula. Is history repeating itself. The trinity doctrine is the foundation of a system that controls and inhibits most believers in the world. It is possible that the trinity doctrine, maybe one of the biggest deceptions in the world today and many fear to question the doctrine, for they feel that they are in danger of becoming a heretic. A heretic is a person who doesn't fit in with the theology of the organised church. Today many people fear becoming a heretic, which is the fear of man rather than the fear of God. People were burnt at the stake for heracy in the past, perhaps this fear originates from that time as an influencing factor to why people do not question this doctrine.   Now I know that I may be in the minority when I say that I do not believe in the trinity doctrine. But minority means nothing because all men are wrong. When Luther sparked the reformation, he was definately in the minority. Perhaps the Church is ready for another reformation, perhaps it is more likely to be a revolution or redefinition. I leave you for now with the following questions: Did the trinity formula come from the spirit of man or the Spirit of God? If Jesus came to earth to reveal God, why didn't he teach the trinity. Have you really prayed and asked God if the trinty doctrine is His revelation? Have you really looked at all the scriptures that say who God is and who Jesus really is? If you have challenged the trinity doctrine, was your mind already made-up before you took this challenge? If you were morooned on a desert island by yourself, and you had know knowledge of the bible. Would you come to the conclusion that God was a trinity if you read the bible from cover to cover? I look forward to any feedback and I pray that we all come to know the truth whatever that may be, and to all those who may be involved in this discussion, I hope and pray that we may all be teachable.

Mandy! I thought to bring this up to explain all rather then going into the scriptures of W.J. and Isaiah, but I will go over them.
Love Irene

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