The Trinity Doctrine

[Samuel]

I'm not really backing up either one of these doctrines 100%

If it makes any of you feel any better.

Honestly…either one can be explained with the bible through a High-Paid Preacher.

My personal opinion for what its worth…is that the truth is somewhere in between these.

I think both the Trinity I.E. Church or GOD, Assembly of GOD, Pentecostals, And the Oneness Apostolic, United Pentecostals…are both close to the truth. They are both somewhat judgmental….but in that case all churches are judgmental. Every church you go to there is going to be that Sister (Somebodies Grandma) that just has to gossip about every one that walks through the door. Or…when someone sees you doing something they don't think you should do …instead of coming to you telling you about it politely and then praying for you. They go run and tell the whole church and boast about it.

Thats just the way some people are…yeah its wrong…but go home today and take a look at yourself…see if you can't find enough stuff wrong with yourself that you won't have time to worry about what someone else is doing.

I know that I have a lot of problems. I really don't have room to point out anyones error. I did here in this post for instructional and teaching purposes only.

Baptists ….well the only problem that I have with them is they think you can't become unsaved. That there is no way you can fall from grace…once you come to the grace. Well…the bible don't teach that …at least not that I can tell.

Catholics…they have been deceived for an extremely large time. Obviously we don't need to pray to Mary. Obviously, the only man we need between us is Jesus Christ …not a pope.
Remember the curtain was tore in half signifying that you can go straight to Jesus Christ and he goes to the Father.

and on and on…

We could point out all kinds of things wrong with all kinds of churches and beliefs.

The point is that if we feel the spirit of GOD moving us to go to a church we should do it. GOD has a reason that he wants you to go there whatever it may be.

We are men…we are going to be wrong a lot. But we have a Teacher…Praise GOD for that!

[martian]

Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 16 2008,17:17)

Hi Martian, You have asked, “Christ pre-existed and that teaching produces what?” My answer: Believing that Christ pre-existed as the Son of God has been the biggest eye opener of my spiritual life.  It has changed my life and I am so much more interested in studying scripture and doing God's will than I was before .  That has been 15 years now.  I think about it everyday.  By realizing that the Son of God had a beginning and was directly begotten from the Father before the foundation of the world, I have come to appreciate many things. 1. One thing is that the Most High God wanted a son and wanted to give Him a very important role as to help Him create everything in heaven and on earth.  He is a God that could have done it by Himself but didn't.  He loved His son and gave Him that joy.  So, I see God more personally because I see a parent's heart.  I teach my kids and enjoy it so much when they catch on and can do things with the wisdom I have passed on to them.  How many times I have heard “Mommy look” as they show me that they can do those things that I have been teaching them. They receive joy often because I am so pleased with them. 2. Another way that I have benefited was by realizing how special and above us the Son of God is.  The Most High God used His Son to create through and no one else.  He is called the begotten God and I see Him that way for believers.  I believe that He is worthy to be my God that was begotten by His and my Most High God. 3.  Also, I benefit by believing that the Son of God truly must realize just how much He is not equal to His Father because He absolutely knew that it wasn't Himself that was doing this marvelous creating alone but His Father working through Him.  By experiencing His Father, as He created through Him, the Son could realize how amazing His Father was and is and have unshakeable faith in Him. 4.  I see the Son exemplifying how to be a perfect child of God by just letting the Father work through Him.  It motivates me to let my heavenly Father just work through me because when I cooperate with Him, He can do all things through me too, through His Son, great and mighty things.  My own children could save themselves alot of grief if they would just cooperate with me instead of complain and drag their feet. 5.  The Son's pre-existence shows me how different He responds to His Father than satan.  The Son of God knows He is not equal to His Father, satan thinks he can be equal to the Most High God. Possibly Jesus' greatest strength is that He knows beyond a doubt that He is not nor ever will be His Father's equal because He was there in existence during creation. The above list is some of the ways that the Son's pre-existence has dramatically influenced me as I seek to fulfill God's work as He works through me.  You want to take this specialness away from the Son of God.  Why?  From my perspective, you miss so much, Martian, and you try so hard to keep missing it, all the while boasting in your knowledge claiming that no one benefits from a pre-existent Son of God.  Well, I have benefited as well as many others on this forum.  You speak as if you know everything with your absolutes and assumptions but you don't.  Your love of God does not come across to me, sorry, but your arrogance does, sorry again.  Still, it is good that you are studying.  Perhaps we will all find the truth if we humble ourselves and not lean on our own understanding (or Greek and Hebrew understanding as well). I hope for you God's best!

My answer:

Believing that Christ pre-existed as the Son of God has been the biggest eye opener of my spiritual life. It has changed my life and I am so much more interested in studying scripture and doing God's will than I was before . That has been 15 years now. I think about it everyday. By realizing that the Son of God had a beginning and was directly begotten from the Father before the foundation of the world, I have come to appreciate many things.

Response –
Not conclusive. I can say the same thing of my understanding of the completely (non pre-existent) human Christ. And I have been studying this subject and general theology for over 35 years.
You say –
1. One thing is that the Most High God wanted a son and wanted to give Him a very important role as to help Him create everything in heaven and on earth. He is a God that could have done it by Himself but didn't. He loved His son and gave Him that joy. So, I see God more personally because I see a parent's heart. I teach my kids and enjoy it so much when they catch on and can do things with the wisdom I have passed on to them. How many times I have heard “Mommy look” as they show me that they can do those things that I have been teaching them. They receive joy often because I am so pleased with them.

Response –
Actually God wants and has many many sons and daughters. Some obedient and some not so obedient. We are all children of God. God loves us all equally. He cannot reward us all equally because we are not all equally obedient. You being a father I will assume you would not reward a disobedient child in the same manner as an obedient child, yet you love them equally.
The lessons learned from seeing the relationship between Jesus and His father are important for three reasons.
1.So that we may have the same reltionship with our heavenly Father as Christ did. That we might be one with our heavenly father even as Christ and our mutual father are one. John 10.
2.That we might carry that same type of relationship into our own earthly families.
3.That we might enjoy that relationship with our brothers and sister In Christ.
Your relationship with your children is sweet but not necessarily dependent on a pre-existent Christ. I too have those same experiences with my children and I do not believe in a pre-existent Christ. You may believe that to be true but that is not conclusive. In fact, believing that Christ is just like us in EVERY way endears my Father to me. How great is his love for me that He would give so perfect an example to me. An example that I can actually follow and is not dependent of some power or experience that I cannot duplicate.
The three points above would be best served, accomplished and understood by having the understanding of Christ as exactly like us as our perfect example.

You say –
2. Another way that I have benefited was by realizing how special and above us the Son of God is. The Most High God used His Son to create through and no one else. He is called the begotten God and I see Him that way for believers. I believe that He is worthy to be my God that was begotten by His and my Most High God.

Response –
Totally dysfunctional. By placing Jesus in a category different and higher then the rest of humanity you eliminate His being an example for us. He can only be an example if He is like us. Your doctrine makes our Father unjust and unfair. He gives us His son as an example and demands that we become like him, yet creates him with abilities that we cannot duplicate. You again have assumed that the verse saying “begotten God” can be understood outside of the culture is was written in. You have pulled it out of the context of it’s culture and language used it to build a doctrine.

You say –
3. Also, I benefit by believing that the Son of God truly must realize just how much He is not equal to His Father because He absolutely knew that it wasn't Himself that was doing this marvelous creating alone but His Father working through Him. By experiencing His Father, as He created through Him, the Son co
uld realize how amazing His Father was and is and have unshakeable faith in Him.

Response-
Again Jesus’ faith in God is to be an example for us. If His faith is in any way effected or built by this supposed creating work done with God then that is also not an example for us. Since Jesus faith was built on something we cannot duplicate, we therefore cannot have the same faith as Christ. Again your doctrine contradicts the character of a loving and just God and invalidates Christ as our example.

You say –
4. I see the Son exemplifying how to be a perfect child of God by just letting the Father work through Him. It motivates me to let my heavenly Father just work through me because when I cooperate with Him, He can do all things through me too, through His Son, great and mighty things. My own children could save themselves alot of grief if they would just cooperate with me instead of complain and drag their feet.

Response –
That is only true if Jesus is identical to us in every way. To what ever degree you make Christ different then us, to that same degree we cannot be like Him. Using your example. If you have the ability to fly because you are God’s begotten son and then God tells the rest of humanity that they must also fly without the advantages of flight given the begotten son then you have just made the Father an unfair parent. As with most Trinitarians and those that make Christ different then the rest of humanity, you calim Christ as an example and yet make statements that deny that possibility. It has been my experience that those that do this believe in their heart that Christ is our example and actually believe in their heart that they can be like Christ, but speak a dogma that doesn’t fit the way they act toward Christ or their heavenly Father.

You say –
5.The Son's pre-existence shows me how different He responds to His Father than satan. The Son of God knows He is not equal to His Father, satan thinks he can be equal to the Most High God. Possibly Jesus' greatest strength is that He knows beyond a doubt that He is not nor ever will be His Father's equal because He was there in existence during creation.

Response –
Again you are crediting things to the pre-existence doctrine that are not dependent upon that doctrine. The temptation to equate ourselves with God is the temptation given all men by Satan. This was the temptation in the Garden (“You will be like Gods”) and the one Paul warns about in Philipians 2. If the pre-existence is the reason Christ did not equate Himself equal with God, then how do we overcome that temptation?. Your words have again denied us our example and role model. If Jesus’ great strength or faith is based upon his being with God during creation, then we are not capable of the same strength because we were not there. If Jesus overcame the temptation of “equating himself with God” because He was with God during creation, then how is that an example we can follow to overcome that temptation?

You say –
The above list is some of the ways that the Son's pre-existence has dramatically influenced me as I seek to fulfill God's work as He works through me. You want to take this specialness away from the Son of God. Why? From my perspective, you miss so much, Martian, and you try so hard to keep missing it, all the while boasting in your knowledge claiming that no one benefits from a pre-existent Son of God. Well, I have benefited as well as many others on this forum. You speak as if you know everything with your absolutes and assumptions but you don't. Your love of God does not come across to me, sorry, but your arrogance does, sorry again. Still, it is good that you are studying. Perhaps we will all find the truth if we humble ourselves and not lean on our own understanding (or Greek and Hebrew understanding as well).

Response –
I am not concerned about your opinion of my motives. I am only concerned about God’s opinion of me. What you assume is arrogance on my part is really assuredness of my beliefs based on extensive study and understanding of the ultimate plan of God for man. The fact that you do not perceive the love of God in me can as easily be explained by the possibility of you not having the discernment to see what is there or even know what the true love of God is. To even assume that you might know how much I love God from a silly web site is lacking so much wisdom as to be called foolishness. And you call me arrogant? In none of my posts have I made personal accusations against your walk with God or personal relationship with God. I have directed my posts to discussing your doctrine. Should I also make broad spectrum assumptions on your walk with God and assume it is the fruit of your doctrine? Rather I assume that you do love God. I also am quite certain that if you knew Jesus as the perfected human example for us that your faith would sour to a height you do not now know. That the devil would have no inroad to say things like “You cannot do that. Jesus did that because he is a God”. There would be no ambiguity in knowing what we as humans are capable of doing or becoming. No ambiguity because everything Jesus did is available to us based on the fact that we have the same Father and are the same creatures.

I can except ignorance of the importance of knowing the culture and language of those that wrote scripture, but to assume that anyone can understand scripture without it is foolishness. Have you ever studied the Hebrew culture in depth? Have you studied the ancient Hebrew pictographs? Have you studied the mindset of the great Eastern cultures? Have you seen the differences between the way these ancient people think and write? If you have not then you have no reasonable claim to know if that study would change your outlook on scripture or not. You only have speculation and opinion based on incomplete knowledge.

All of the points you have posted either work against Jesus as our perfect example or they falsely give credit to this doctrine for things that are not solely dependent on this doctrine. Nothing is conclusive in your assumptions.

The only three things that are evident are:
1.You are either not willing or not able to follow your theories to their end conclusion to see if they actually work. When I speak of working, I am speaking of working without going against God’s plan to give us a perfect example to follow or contradicting the character of God.
2.You have made broad assumptions on my character or relationship with God without so much as even knowing my real name. Assumptions based on one of the worst forms of direct communication known to exist. Forums on the net!
3.You assume I am leaning on my own understanding, and you do not? If you say you lean on revelation from God what motivates you to assume I do not? My understanding comes from the word of God and the reasoning mind God gave to me to understand His truth. You can claim the same thing, but if you deny the importance of understanding the culture in which the scriptures are written or you deny the fact that what the Hebrews originally wrote and what our modern translators have given us is different, then you deny even the most basic of principles of proper and honest bible interpretation. Those denials make your interpretations prone to grave error.

[NickHassan]

Hi Martian,
So knowledge and reason form the basis of your understanding.
Do you not know the Spirit of God?

[martian]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 17 2008,06:08)

Hi Martian, So knowledge and reason form the basis of your understanding. Do you not know the Spirit of God?

Stop the nonsense posts and stop making comment just to keep the discussion alive.
Your comment is insulting and deserves no real response.

[NickHassan]

Hi Martian,
The Spirit never seems to be given credit by you.
This may be an oversight on your behalf.
But we are dependant on the Spirit.

[martian]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 17 2008,06:36)

Hi Martian, The Spirit never seems to be given credit by you. This may be an oversight on your behalf. But we are dependant on the Spirit.

The Spirit of God leads me by way of experiancial understanding. I can only understand intelectually after I have understood spiritually in my heart. Of course all of this has some dependence on my ability to properly understand what I am experiancing in my heart.

[Lightenup]

Hello Martian,
Ya know, I'm sorry, I've obviously upset you.  Please forgive me.
I have my convictions, you have yours.  We have to do our best with what we are given.  By the way, I am interested in the history of cultures, in fact I have spent some time recently with a Rabbi to do just that.  He is a Messianic Jewish Rabbi.  I have also taken 3 semesters of Greek classes.  I know that is not that much but what I have done, I have benefited from.  I truly do know that I should not lean on my own understanding.  Fifteen years ago I went from trinitarian to non-trinitarian.  At the onset of that transition is when I totally surrendered my understanding.  I trusted God alone to show me truth in my quest and that truth differs from yours.  I can't explain why He led me one way and you another and frankly, my hope in unity with you seems hopeless.  It might not be, but it seems that way.  There are some on these boards that I agree with and that does give me hope.  They have conclusions that I came to years ago before I knew of any of them.  I am very thankful for this board for that, it has been a breath of fresh air and encouragement to me.

I would like to clarify somethings that you seem to think that I understand a certain way but I don't.  That involves this part of our discussion:

My words:
Another way that I have benefited was by realizing how special and above us the Son of God is.  The Most High God used His Son to create through and no one else.  He is called the begotten God and I see Him that way for believers.  I believe that He is worthy to be my God that was begotten by His and my Most High God.

Your response –
Totally dysfunctional. By placing Jesus in a category different and higher then the rest of humanity you eliminate His being an example for us. He can only be an example if He is like us. Your doctrine makes our Father unjust and unfair. He gives us His son as an example and demands that we become like him, yet creates him with abilities that we cannot duplicate. You again have assumed that the verse saying “begotten God” can be understood outside of the culture is was written in. You have pulled it out of the context of it’s culture and language used it to build a doctrine.

This is what I want to clarify:
You wrote:  “yet creates him with abilities that we cannot duplicate”

I do not believe, first of all, that the Son is a creation although I believe that He has a beginning as born of God. The Son of God is from God's own person.
I also do not believe that He was born with any special abilities before the foundation of the world.  Every special ability that He had, He received from the Father, everything.  No inherent special powers or abilities.

Another thing I would like to clarify is this:
You write:
To even assume that you might know how much I love God from a silly web site is lacking so much wisdom as to be called foolishness. And you call me arrogant?

To clarify: I wrote that, “Your love of God does not come across to me, sorry, but your arrogance does, sorry again.”  I said nothing about how much or how little you love God.  I simply meant that God's love for those who don't believe the way that you do wasn't coming across to me.  I do think that it is possible though, even in message boards, maybe not common, but possible for God's agape love to shine in our written words.

I'm sorry for any misunderstandings.

[martian]

Let me try once more to illustrate my point about understanding Hebrew culture and language. I would appreciate it if those who read this would take it as a whole and not try to pick out single lines to debate. This post is long enough without me having to qualify every single phrase. I have posted some of this before, but I do not think some read it. I also think that some that did read it brushed it aside as not important. Since this is a forum dedicated to understanding the meaning of scripture, it baffles me that some would not think it important to understand the way in which the authors of scripture thought and wrote. How can someone claim a hunger for the Word and yet not be dying inside to know the heart and mindset of people like Moses or Paul. Personally I cannot get enough understanding of how these men perceived God and translated it to written form. I want to know how God used their hearts, minds and culture to bring about this work we call the Bible. I want to know every single miniscule purpose in this word and how it applies to them and to me.

Let me take a single term from the Hebrew perspective. The term is “name”.

To define this term from the Hebrew I will quote Jeff Benner from The Ancient Hebrew Research Center.

“When we see a name such as “King David” we see the word “King” as a title and “David” as a name. In our western mind a title describes a character trait while a name is simply an identifier. In the Hebrew language there is no such distinction between names and titles. Both words, King and David, are descriptions of character traits, King is “one who reigns” while David is “one who is loved”. It is also common to identify the word “Elohiym” (God) as a title and YHWH (Yahweh, the LORD, Jehovah) as a name. What we do not realize is that both of these are character traits, YHWH meaning “the one who exists” and Elohiym is “one who has power and authority”. The Hebrew word “shem” more literally means “character”. When the Bible speaks of taking God's name to the nations, he is not talking about the name itself but his character. When the command to not take God's name in vain literally means not to represent his character in a false manner. It is similar to our expression of “having a good name” which is not about the name itself but the character of the one with that name.”

Many other sources confirm this definition but I think Benner does it best. I could write more on the etomology and root words that define this word but I believe this is sufficient for our purposes.
From this definition we can see that “name” in Hebrew literally means character or character trait. Why is this important? One reason? The improper understanding of this term has given false strength and credibility to some doctrines, but mostly to broaden our understanding of what God is saying to us in His word.
For example :
Isa 9:6
For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us;
And the government will rest on His shoulders;
And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.

In our English bibles this verse seems to support the Trinitarian and/or the dual nature doctrines. In fact it does not! Whether a person believes in the Trinity or not, all of us must believe that honesty with scripture is a must.

Now let’s reevaluate this verse with proper translation. For clarity I am also defining the term “called”. This word is used when a text of scripture was read in the Temple and means to proclaim.
For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us;
And the government will rest on His shoulders;
And He will proclaim the character of the Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.

Instead of this verse being thrown about as Trinitarian proof text, it is really a statement and description of the character of Christ. If one chooses to believe in the Trinity, that is there choice but one cannot honestly use this verse as proof of it’s existence.
Accepting the proper translation of this verse ties it in with hundreds of other verses. Even in the NT.
The entire concept of praying in Jesus name takes on new meaning.
Most Christians have been taught that when they pray to tag on the phrase “in Jesus name” or something of the like. It is used as if it were some magic montra to get your prayer heard or answered. Many Christians become discouraged because their prayers are not answered and do not know why. Are they asking in the character of Christ or using His name as a tag?

Notice the description of prayer outside of the character/motives of Christ.
James 4:3?You ask and do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, so that you may spend it on your pleasures.

Now notice what happens when one prays with the attitude/character of Christ.
1 John 3:22?and whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do the things that are pleasing in His sight.

To the open hearted praying within the character of Christ would seem self-evident and yet most are unaware that these verses speak of this very thing. It is a prime example of our hearts knowing what is right yet our minds speak/believe something different. The ancient Hebrew language is special because it is the language of the chosen people of God. Their language was profoundly impacted by their culture. A culture inundated with and dedicated to Elohyim. Recent archeological evidence points to an origin of the ancient Hebrew pictographs of the time of Abraham. From the time of Abraham through the time of the apostles, this language, culture and people have been used by God to reveal himself. It is easily provable now that Matthew, the first chapters of Acts and perhaps much more of the New Testament was originally penned in Hebrew. Either way the writers of the NT were Hebrew and thought and wrote within their own distinct culture. A culture far different then the Western culture which we not live in. Because of this difference, trying to interpret scripture within a Western mindset and culture will lead to many mistakes. At the very least many wonderful truths will be missed.

One single properly defined word defeats a major false proof text for a doctrine and explains a very important aspect of how we are to pray. I could go on all day posting individual words that have profound impact on what is assumed to be correct. These are not my opinions but they are a result of the archeological evidence of the Hebrew language and culture.

[martian]

Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 17 2008,08:53)

Hello Martian, Ya know, I'm sorry, I've obviously upset you.  Please forgive me. I have my convictions, you have yours.  We have to do our best with what we are given.  By the way, I am interested in the history of cultures, in fact I have spent some time recently with a Rabbi to do just that.  He is a Messianic Jewish Rabbi.  I have also taken 3 semesters of Greek classes.  I know that is not that much but what I have done, I have benefited from.  I truly do know that I should not lean on my own understanding.  Fifteen years ago I went from trinitarian to non-trinitarian.  At the onset of that transition is when I totally surrendered my understanding.  I trusted God alone to show me truth in my quest and that truth differs from yours.  I can't explain why He led me one way and you another and frankly, my hope in unity with you seems hopeless.  It might not be, but it seems that way.  There are some on these boards that I agree with and that does give me hope.  They have conclusions that I came to years ago before I knew of any of them.  I am very thankful for this board for that, it has been a breath of fresh air and encouragement to me. I would like to clarify somethings that you seem to think that I understand a certain way but I don't.  That involves this part of our discussion: My words: Another way that I have benefited was by realizing how special and above us the Son of God is.  The Most High God used His Son to create through and no one else.  He is called the begotten God and I see Him that way for believers.  I believe that He is worthy to be my God that was begotten by His and my Most High God. Your response – Totally dysfunctional. By placing Jesus in a category different and higher then the rest of humanity you eliminate His being an example for us. He can only be an example if He is like us. Your doctrine makes our Father unjust and unfair. He gives us His son as an example and demands that we become like him, yet creates him with abilities that we cannot duplicate. You again have assumed that the verse saying “begotten God” can be understood outside of the culture is was written in. You have pulled it out of the context of it’s culture and language used it to build a doctrine. This is what I want to clarify: You wrote:  “yet creates him with abilities that we cannot duplicate” I do not believe, first of all, that the Son is a creation although I believe that He has a beginning as born of God. The Son of God is from God's own person. I also do not believe that He was born with any special abilities before the foundation of the world.  Every special ability that He had, He received from the Father, everything.  No inherent special powers or abilities. Another thing I would like to clarify is this: You write: To even assume that you might know how much I love God from a silly web site is lacking so much wisdom as to be called foolishness. And you call me arrogant? To clarify: I wrote that, “Your love of God does not come across to me, sorry, but your arrogance does, sorry again.”  I said nothing about how much or how little you love God.  I simply meant that God's love for those who don't believe the way that you do wasn't coming across to me.  I do think that it is possible though, even in message boards, maybe not common, but possible for God's agape love to shine in our written words. I'm sorry for any misunderstandings.

I accept your apology without reservation. I agree that it may seem hopeless to our agreeing on the pre-existance of Christ. However I do believe there is coming a tme when we all will speak the same things. God has a way of doing what we seem to think is hopeless. Whether it can happen via this type of venue is very questionable in my heart. If you and I were to sit down over a cup of coffee (and the Spirit of God was there to teach) we might come to agreement.

I know for certain that God used the mindset, culture and personalities of those who penned scripture to record the truths He wants us to know. Without clear understanding of these things we cannt say we truly understand scripture.

[martian]

lightenup
As Earth shattering as your coming out of the Trinity doctrine was for you so was the impact I received when I began to really dig into Hebrew culture and language. If you truely have a hunger for that subject, I might suggest The Ancient Hebrew Research Center. The web site can be found by googling that title. Many of the truths and facts I have discovered from years of study have been concisely displayed on that sight.

[Lightenup]

Dear Martian,
I would like that cup of coffee expecially if it ended in agreement
Meanwhile, I will look up that Hebrew site.
Thanks!

[martian]

Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 17 2008,11:54)

Dear Martian, I would like that cup of coffee expecially if it ended in agreement Meanwhile, I will look up that Hebrew site. Thanks!

Lightenup,
The Hebrew site is rather large. I might suggest these pages to get started..

http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/27_home.html

http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/12_home.html

[Mr. Steve]

Martian:

John and Paul both taught that all thing were made by him (Christ) and for him. This is no mystery. He is above all.

Jesus himself said he was going back to the Father from where he was sent. Pre-existence is abundant in the gospel of John. Read what Jesus says. Jesus never cites his earthly birth as his origin. He says he is from above. If you do not believe that he came from above, you do not believe what he taught or are ignorant. Either way, you do not believe.

This isn't a light issue.

Steven

[martian]

Quote (Mr. Steve @ Mar. 18 2008,08:01)

Martian: John and Paul both taught that all thing were made by him (Christ) and for him.  This is no mystery.  He is above all. Jesus himself said he was going back to the Father from where he was sent.  Pre-existence is abundant in the gospel of John.  Read what Jesus says.  Jesus never cites his earthly birth as his origin.  He says he is from above.  If you do not believe that he came from above, you do not believe what he taught or are ignorant.  Either way, you do not believe. This isn't a light issue.   Steven

And you donot understand the Hebrew mindset behind the words and so you interpret them wrong. Soory charlie — Wrong again.

[martian]

Quote (Mr. Steve @ Mar. 18 2008,08:01)

Martian: John and Paul both taught that all thing were made by him (Christ) and for him.  This is no mystery.  He is above all. Jesus himself said he was going back to the Father from where he was sent.  Pre-existence is abundant in the gospel of John.  Read what Jesus says.  Jesus never cites his earthly birth as his origin.  He says he is from above.  If you do not believe that he came from above, you do not believe what he taught or are ignorant.  Either way, you do not believe. This isn't a light issue.   Steven

Actually I take the issue much more seriously then you so. I actually study the cultural mindset behind the words to get their meanings while you make a cursory radi of the English and form an opinion.

[seek and you will find]

Quote (martian @ Mar. 18 2008,10:59)

Quote (Mr. Steve @ Mar. 18 2008,08:01) Martian: John and Paul both taught that all thing were made by him (Christ) and for him.  This is no mystery.  He is above all. Jesus himself said he was going back to the Father from where he was sent.  Pre-existence is abundant in the gospel of John.  Read what Jesus says.  Jesus never cites his earthly birth as his origin.  He says he is from above.  If you do not believe that he came from above, you do not believe what he taught or are ignorant.  Either way, you do not believe. This isn't a light issue.   Steven Actually I take the issue much more seriously then you so. I actually study the cultural mindset behind the words to get their meanings while you make a cursory Rad of the English and form an opinion.

Martian It is so amazing to me how you just want to ignore scripture that says plainly that Jesus was created before the world was.
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, thew firstborn of all creature.
verse 16  For by Him all things were created that are in Heaven and that are in the earth…….

verse 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.

verse 18 And He is the head of the body of the Church, the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have preeminence.

Preeminence meant that He was FIRST IN ALL.

That my friend you should take to the bank.

Rev. 3:14 ” These things said the Amen, the Faithful, and True Witness the Beginning of THE CREATION OF GOD.

Can this be any plainer?

Proverbs 8:22-30 explains what Jesus was to God in the beginning.

The LORD possessed me at the beginning of His way, before His works of old.
23 I have been established from everlasting, from the beginning, before there was ever an earth………………
This is not wisdom like some might say. Wisdom is what God is, not what God brought forth. ( I was brought forth verse 24)

I have put this scripture here for you before I think, why is it that you don't want to belief it.

Peace and Love Mrs.

[martian]

Quote (seek and you will find @ Mar. 18 2008,16:14)

Quote (martian @ Mar. 18 2008,10:59) Quote (Mr. Steve @ Mar. 18 2008,08:01) Martian: John and Paul both taught that all thing were made by him (Christ) and for him.  This is no mystery.  He is above all. Jesus himself said he was going back to the Father from where he was sent.  Pre-existence is abundant in the gospel of John.  Read what Jesus says.  Jesus never cites his earthly birth as his origin.  He says he is from above.  If you do not believe that he came from above, you do not believe what he taught or are ignorant.  Either way, you do not believe. This isn't a light issue.   Steven Actually I take the issue much more seriously then you so. I actually study the cultural mindset behind the words to get their meanings while you make a cursory Rad of the English and form an opinion. Martian It is so amazing to me how you just want to ignore scripture that says plainly that Jesus was created before the world was. Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, thew firstborn of all creature. verse 16  For by Him all things were created that are in Heaven and that are in the earth……. verse 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. verse 18 And He is the head of the body of the Church, the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have preeminence. Preeminence meant that He was FIRST IN ALL. That my friend you should take to the bank. Rev. 3:14 ” These things said the Amen, the Faithful, and True Witness the Beginning of THE CREATION OF GOD. Can this be any plainer? Proverbs 8:22-30 explains what Jesus was to God in the beginning. The LORD possessed me at the beginning of His way, before His works of old. 23 I have been established from everlasting, from the beginning, before there was ever an earth……………… This is not wisdom like some might say. Wisdom is what God is, not what God brought forth. ( I was brought forth verse 24) I have put this scripture here for you before I think, why is it that you don't want to belief it. Peace and Love Mrs.

Because that is not what the scripture says in the original intent. You can not read these scriptures from a western mindset and think you understand them.

[seek and you will find]

Quote (martian @ Mar. 19 2008,02:43)

Quote (seek and you will find @ Mar. 18 2008,16:14) Quote (martian @ Mar. 18 2008,10:59) Quote (Mr. Steve @ Mar. 18 2008,08:01) Martian: John and Paul both taught that all thing were made by him (Christ) and for him.  This is no mystery.  He is above all. Jesus himself said he was going back to the Father from where he was sent.  Pre-existence is abundant in the gospel of John.  Read what Jesus says.  Jesus never cites his earthly birth as his origin.  He says he is from above.  If you do not believe that he came from above, you do not believe what he taught or are ignorant.  Either way, you do not believe. This isn't a light issue.   Steven Actually I take the issue much more seriously then you so. I actually study the cultural mindset behind the words to get their meanings while you make a cursory Rad of the English and form an opinion. Martian It is so amazing to me how you just want to ignore scripture that says plainly that Jesus was created before the world was. Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, thew firstborn of all creature. verse 16  For by Him all things were created that are in Heaven and that are in the earth……. verse 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. verse 18 And He is the head of the body of the Church, the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have preeminence. Preeminence meant that He was FIRST IN ALL. That my friend you should take to the bank. Rev. 3:14 ” These things said the Amen, the Faithful, and True Witness the Beginning of THE CREATION OF GOD. Can this be any plainer? Proverbs 8:22-30 explains what Jesus was to God in the beginning. The LORD possessed me at the beginning of His way, before His works of old. 23 I have been established from everlasting, from the beginning, before there was ever an earth……………… This is not wisdom like some might say. Wisdom is what God is, not what God brought forth. ( I was brought forth verse 24) I have put this scripture here for you before I think, why is it that you don't want to belief it. Peace and Love Mrs. Because that is not what the scripture says in the original intent. You can not read these scriptures from a western mindset and think you understand them.

What mindset, that makes no sense. You are just ignoring scriptures, that is all my Friend. You are talking nonsense.
I forgot one more scripture
John 17:5 AND NOW O FATHER, GLORIFY ME TOHETHER WITH THE GLORY WHICH I HAD WITH YOU

B E F O R E T H E W O R L D W A S.

Peace and Love Mrs.

P.S. Were you ever Baptized according to scripture?

[martian]

Quote (seek and you will find @ Mar. 19 2008,04:10)

Quote (martian @ Mar. 19 2008,02:43) Quote (seek and you will find @ Mar. 18 2008,16:14) Quote (martian @ Mar. 18 2008,10:59) Quote (Mr. Steve @ Mar. 18 2008,08:01) Martian: John and Paul both taught that all thing were made by him (Christ) and for him.  This is no mystery.  He is above all. Jesus himself said he was going back to the Father from where he was sent.  Pre-existence is abundant in the gospel of John.  Read what Jesus says.  Jesus never cites his earthly birth as his origin.  He says he is from above.  If you do not believe that he came from above, you do not believe what he taught or are ignorant.  Either way, you do not believe. This isn't a light issue.   Steven Actually I take the issue much more seriously then you so. I actually study the cultural mindset behind the words to get their meanings while you make a cursory Rad of the English and form an opinion. Martian It is so amazing to me how you just want to ignore scripture that says plainly that Jesus was created before the world was. Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, thew firstborn of all creature. verse 16  For by Him all things were created that are in Heaven and that are in the earth……. verse 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. verse 18 And He is the head of the body of the Church, the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have preeminence. Preeminence meant that He was FIRST IN ALL. That my friend you should take to the bank. Rev. 3:14 ” These things said the Amen, the Faithful, and True Witness the Beginning of THE CREATION OF GOD. Can this be any plainer? Proverbs 8:22-30 explains what Jesus was to God in the beginning. The LORD possessed me at the beginning of His way, before His works of old. 23 I have been established from everlasting, from the beginning, before there was ever an earth……………… This is not wisdom like some might say. Wisdom is what God is, not what God brought forth. ( I was brought forth verse 24) I have put this scripture here for you before I think, why is it that you don't want to belief it. Peace and Love Mrs. Because that is not what the scripture says in the original intent. You can not read these scriptures from a western mindset and think you understand them. What mindset, that makes no sense. You are just ignoring scriptures, that is all my Friend. You are talking nonsense. I forgot one more scripture John 17:5  AND NOW O FATHER, GLORIFY ME TOHETHER WITH THE GLORY WHICH I HAD WITH YOU B E F O R E   T H E   W O R L D   W A S. Peace and Love Mrs. P.S. Were you ever Baptized according to scripture?

Have you not read the posts I have made on the Hebrew culture and mindset of those that wrote the scriptures?
Scripture was written within and through the culture of the Hebrews. Without understanding that they percieved the world differently and wrote differently, you cannot understand scripture.
You continually qoute English translations as if Paul and others wrote in English. Try the original language as understood within the Hebrew culture.

[seek and you will find]

Quote (martian @ Mar. 19 2008,04:21)

Quote (seek and you will find @ Mar. 19 2008,04:10) Quote (martian @ Mar. 19 2008,02:43) Quote (seek and you will find @ Mar. 18 2008,16:14) Quote (martian @ Mar. 18 2008,10:59) Quote (Mr. Steve @ Mar. 18 2008,08:01) Martian: John and Paul both taught that all thing were made by him (Christ) and for him.  This is no mystery.  He is above all. Jesus himself said he was going back to the Father from where he was sent.  Pre-existence is abundant in the gospel of John.  Read what Jesus says.  Jesus never cites his earthly birth as his origin.  He says he is from above.  If you do not believe that he came from above, you do not believe what he taught or are ignorant.  Either way, you do not believe. This isn't a light issue.   Steven Actually I take the issue much more seriously then you so. I actually study the cultural mindset behind the words to get their meanings while you make a cursory Rad of the English and form an opinion. Martian It is so amazing to me how you just want to ignore scripture that says plainly that Jesus was created before the world was. Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, thew firstborn of all creature. verse 16  For by Him all things were created that are in Heaven and that are in the earth……. verse 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. verse 18 And He is the head of the body of the Church, the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have preeminence. Preeminence meant that He was FIRST IN ALL. That my friend you should take to the bank. Rev. 3:14 ” These things said the Amen, the Faithful, and True Witness the Beginning of THE CREATION OF GOD. Can this be any plainer? Proverbs 8:22-30 explains what Jesus was to God in the beginning. The LORD possessed me at the beginning of His way, before His works of old. 23 I have been established from everlasting, from the beginning, before there was ever an earth……………… This is not wisdom like some might say. Wisdom is what God is, not what God brought forth. ( I was brought forth verse 24) I have put this scripture here for you before I think, why is it that you don't want to belief it. Peace and Love Mrs. Because that is not what the scripture says in the original intent. You can not read these scriptures from a western mindset and think you understand them. What mindset, that makes no sense. You are just ignoring scriptures, that is all my Friend. You are talking nonsense. I forgot one more scripture John 17:5  AND NOW O FATHER, GLORIFY ME TOHETHER WITH THE GLORY WHICH I HAD WITH YOU B E F O R E   T H E   W O R L D   W A S. Peace and Love Mrs. P.S. Were you ever Baptized according to scripture? Have you not read the posts I have made on the Hebrew culture and mindset of those that wrote the scriptures? Scripture was written within and through the culture of the Hebrews. Without understanding that they percieved the world differently and wrote differently, you cannot understand scripture. You continually qoute English translations as if Paul and others wrote in English. Try the original language as understood within the Hebrew culture.

I am asking you to make us understand what you are saying? So why don't you do so? Write down what you mean? I only know German and English.

Peace and Love Mrs.

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