The Trinity Doctrine

This topic has 18,301 replies, 269 voices, and was last updated 1 year, 5 months ago by Keith.

Viewing 20 posts - 11,901 through 11,920 (of 18,302 total)

Author
Posts

March 14, 2008 at 1:54 pm#107899

Participant

Hi Nick,
You asked if time was before Genesis?
Well, I can't recall scripture to answer that. I can't imagine a place without time being a factor or measured in some way. I suppose it is possible to have the passing of time with a different way to measure it. The Bible does say a day is like a thousand years:

2 Peter 3:8
8 But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day.
NASU
So, was time before Genesis, probably, but not measured as we measure it. Can God speed things up, I would guess so. He can do whatever He wants. Afterall, He is God!

Maybe your question is more like, “Was there a period of time before Genesis?” I think that is likely but I, once again, do not recall scripture telling us about it. The only thing I can think of is that God is from everlasting, which could simply mean from ancient times or from eternity. Eternity is not something I can wrap my mind around. Do you have any scripture that talks about this, Nick? My idea of the true God would include someone who always existed and everything came from Him. How is that? I do not know. It is too much for my brain.
Have a great day!

March 14, 2008 at 2:02 pm#107900

Lightenup

Participant

Dear Martian,
I looked at the greek and I think that Heb 1:8-10 is well translated in the NASB. But thanks anyway.

March 14, 2008 at 4:09 pm#107901

martian

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 13 2008,10:11)

Martian wrote:
John 17:5″ And now, O Father glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

What was with God before the world was? The glory for Jesus. We also have glory set aside for us, that does not mean that we were there before the world was.

And Gene writes:
They have to torque the words to make it come out a different way.

Unfortunately you have fallen prey to the typical “cut and paste” theology rampant in today’s churches. To truly understand scripture, one must understand the word definitions and the general and specific context on their use.
John 17

1Jesus spoke these things; and lifting up His eyes to heaven, He said, “Father, the hour has come; glorify Your Son, that the Son may glorify You,
(Note the clear time frame that Jesus establishes. THE HOUR HAS COME. It was not here before, it is here now. Jesus prays that he be glorified. Why? So that He may glorify the Father. Did Jesus not glorify the Father in his pre-existant state? The only purpose for Jesus having glory is to give glory to His God.

2even as You gave Him authority over all flesh, that to all whom You have given Him, He may give eternal life.
3″This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
(Here is the purpose of Jesus’ glory. That they may know the ONLY TRUE GOD and in addition to that, Jesus the anointed one whom you have sent.)

4″I glorified You on the earth, having accomplished the work which You have given Me to do.
5″Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
(Jesus points out something that He has done at a specific time. Jesus accomplished the work. Jesus says based on the fact that I have accomplished the work “NOW FATHER GLORIFY ME”. Several points to look at here.
1. The time frame of this section of scripture. It is just prior to Christ crucifiction. And what happened after Christ crucifiction? Christ was given glory. This was the plan from the beginning. Nick says that the term “plan” is not in the verse but it is certainly spoken of and implied. Jesus is born a complete man like the rest of us. He perfects the work God gave him to do. His flesh dies, is raised from the dead, He is given glory, and goes to the Father.
2. This was not a glory Jesus could produce on his own, it was glory the father had to give him.
3. The Glory Christ was asking for could not be given until He completed the work. The giving of that glory depended on Him completing the work/plan. He could not have it in some pre-existant life.
4. Now that Jesus has completed the plan of God for himself He begins comparing Himself to the rest of humanity and their goal in completing the work set for them.

6″I have manifested Your name to the men whom You gave Me out of the world; they were Yours and You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word.
7″Now they have come to know that everything You have given Me is from You;
8for the words which You gave Me I have given to them; and they received them and truly understood that I came forth from You, and they believed that You sent Me.
9″I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom You have given Me; for they are Yours;
10and all things that are Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine; and I have been glorified in them.
(Jesus speaks about the disciples and says that He is glorified in them. He is given honor in their lives.)

11″I am no longer in the world; and yet they themselves are in the world, and I come to You Holy Father, keep them in Your name, the name which You have given Me, that they may be one even as We are.
(As I have spoken many times. The term “name” means character or character trait. Jesus says He was given the character of God. He never gave it up through sin. Jesus was born a son of God with full dominion over the Earth and God’s creation and never gave it up. We are born in like position yet we give it up through sin and self seeking. Jesus prays that the Father will keep them in His character. Why? SO THAT THEY MAY BE ONE IN THE SAME MANNER AS JESUS THE MAN IS ONE WITH GOD.)

12″While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled.
(While Jesus was with them, He worked with them to help them maintain the character of God. Now that He is leaving He prays that God will keep them there.)

13″But now I come to You; and these things I speak in the world so that they may have My joy made full in themselves.
(Again Jesus speaks these things that we may have the same fullness of God/joy that He had.
Ephesians 3:19?and to know the love of Christ which surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled up to all the fullness of God.)

14″I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
15″I do not ask You to take them out of the world, but to keep them from the evil one.
16″They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
(Another direct comparison between Christ and us)

17″Sanctify them in the truth; Your word is truth.
18″As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world.
19″For their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they themselves also may be sanctified in truth.
(Word in the verse is Logos. John uses this word often in the same sense as it was originally created. A Greek philosopher named Heraclitus first used the term Logos around 600 B.C. to designate the divine reason or plan which coordinates a changing universe. This word was well suited to John's purpose in John 1.
Sanctify in this verse means —
to separate from profane things and dedicate to God, to consecrate things to God or dedicate people to God.
So verses 17 through 19 are very clear. Jesus says – As an example to them, I completed your specific plan for me by separating myself from profane things and dedicating myself to God. You sent me into the world as my proving ground to accomplish this and I send them for the same reason.)

20″I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word;
21that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.
(That the disciples might complete God’s plan for their lives as an example to the rest of humanity. Why? So that we may be one body fitly joined together each supplying that portion that God has set for us. Eph 4.)

22″The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one;
23I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me.
24″Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.
25″O righteous Father, although the world has not known You, yet I have known You; and these have known that You sent Me;
26and I have made Your name known to them, and will make it known, so that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them.”
(Is this a pre-existant love and glory that Christ gives to us? Obviously not! It is simply another example of comparison between Christ and us.)

March 14, 2008 at 4:13 pm#107902

martian

Participant

Enough computer game for today. Might be back later.

March 14, 2008 at 6:06 pm#107903

seek and you will find

Participant

Quote (martian @ Mar. 15 2008,04:09)

Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 13 2008,10:11)

Martian wrote:
John 17:5″ And now, O Father glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

What was with God before the world was? The glory for Jesus. We also have glory set aside for us, that does not mean that we were there before the world was.

And Gene writes:
They have to torque the words to make it come out a different way.

22″The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one;
23I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me.
24″Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.
25″O righteous Father, although the world has not known You, yet I have known You; and these have known that You sent Me;
26and I have made Your name known to them, and will make it known, so that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them.”
(Is this a pre-existant love and glory that Christ gives to
us? Obviously not! It is simply another example of comparison between Christ and us.)

Martian You are interpeting Johm 17:5 wrong it says
And now O Father glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before THE WORLD WAS.

It has nothing to do with Jesus crucifixtion.
It has everything to do with the preexsisting of Jesus. Why is it that you want to make something else out of it, I really cant understand you.

Before Jesus became a Man He was a Spirit being and that He gave up when He emptied Himself and became a Man.

Rev. 3:14 ” These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, THE BEGINNING OF THE CREATION OG GOD.

Col. 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
For by Him all things were created that are in Heaven and that are in the earth…….

HE WAS THERE BEFORE ANYTHING WAS.

Then He also became the firsborn of the dead.
Com. 1:18 And He is the head of the body the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things
He may have PREEMINENCE.

Peeminence means first in all.

Peace and Love Mrs.

March 14, 2008 at 6:47 pm#107904

martian

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 15 2008,02:02)

Dear Martian,
I looked at the greek and I think that Heb 1:8-10 is well translated in the NASB. But thanks anyway.

Before explaining this Hebrews 1, one must understand a little of how the Hebrews thought. This is particularly important when considering that this book is written to Hebrews. This book was probably written by Paul, a Hebrew, within Hebrew culture and to Hebrews. The Hebrew mindset is hard for many to grasp because it is so foreign to our Western way of thinking. Most will outright reject it because it takes too much work to make the shift. Some make fun of it because they just don’t get it. One aspect of Hebrew thought is that Hebrews view the world around them by way of function while the Greek thinking views it by appearance. Example – I could use the term Thermos. You would say in your mind “a red plastic insulated container”. The Hebrew would say, “I drink hot liquid from it”. You see the appearance, He sees the function.
One must also bear in mind that the oldest copies of the NT have no punctuation or small case letters. Everything that is capitalized or punctuated is a matter of later opinion. There are also no verse divisions or chapters.
Heb 1.
1God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways,
2in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.
(Here we see an attempt to explain this functional aspect of Christ making the world. It is through Christ that the creation/world finds it’s ultimate function. Without Christ, nothing in this universe has meaning. It is through the work of Christ that the world is made functional. Notice also that Paul compares God speaking in Christ to the many ways God spoke to the fathers. Christ a revealing/representation of God, not literally God.)

3And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
4having become as much better than the angels, as He has inherited a more excellent name than they.
(Notice it does not say He was in nature God, but that He represented the nature of God.)
5For to which of the angels did He ever say,? “YOU ARE MY SON,? TODAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU”?? And again,? “I WILL BE A FATHER TO HIM? AND HE SHALL BE A SON TO ME”?
6And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says,? “AND LET ALL THE ANGELS OF GOD WORSHIP HIM.”
7And of the angels He says,? “WHO MAKES HIS ANGELS WINDS,? AND HIS MINISTERS A FLAME OF FIRE.”
8But of the Son He says,? “YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER,? AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM. ? 9″YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS;? THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HAS ANOINTED YOU? WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS.”
10And,? “YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH,? AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS; ? 11THEY WILL PERISH, BUT YOU REMAIN;? AND THEY ALL WILL BECOME OLD LIKE A GARMENT, ? 12AND LIKE A MANTLE YOU WILL ROLL THEM UP;? LIKE A GARMENT THEY WILL ALSO BE CHANGED ? BUT YOU ARE THE SAME,? AND YOUR YEARS WILL NOT COME TO AN END.”

(This section will take some explaining — First in verse 8 the words “He says” are not in the Greek at all. This is significant because in verses 5 Paul writes “did he ever say”. In verse 6 and 7 he writes “He says”. In verse 13 he writes “has He ever said”. Paul has no problem indicating who is saying what. This is not a weakness in the Greek language. It is also important to note that the term translated “of” is actually “toward” and indicates a pointing toward the subject. Now let me rewrite this section without the added punctuation.

5FOR TO WHICH OF THE ANGELS DID HE EVER SAY? “YOU ARE MY SON,? TODAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU”?? AND AGAIN,? “I WILL BE A FATHER TO HIM? AND HE SHALL BE A SON TO ME”? AND WHEN HE AGAIN BRINGS THE FIRSTBORN INTO THE WORLD, HE SAYS,?”AND LET ALL THE ANGELS OF GOD WORSHIP HIM.” AND OF THE ANGELS HE SAYS,?”WHO MAKES HIS ANGELS WINDS,? AND HIS MINISTERS A FLAME OF FIRE.” BUT (AND PAUL INDICATES ) THE SON?

IT IS JESUS THAT SENDS THE ANGELS INTO THE FOUR WINDS TO COLLECT THE ELECT. MARK 13:27

[THIS NEXT SECTION CAN BE SEPERATED BECAUSE IT IS QUOTING AN OT VERSE.]
“YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER,? AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM. ? 9″YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS;? THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HAS ANOINTED YOU? WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS.”

(IF JESUS IS GOD THEN HOW CAN HE HAVE A GOD)

10AND,? “YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH,? AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS; ?THEY WILL PERISH, BUT YOU REMAIN AND THEY ALL WILL BECOME OLD LIKE A GARMENT AND LIKE A MANTLE YOU WILL ROLL THEM UP LIKE A GARMENT THEY WILL ALSO BE CHANGED ? BUT YOU ARE THE SAME,? AND YOUR YEARS WILL NOT COME TO AN END.”

(REMEMBER YOU HAVE TO LOOK FUNCTIONALLY – FROM THE VERY BEGINNING, YOU JESUS HAVE BEEN THE FOUNDING REASON FOR THE EXISTANCE OF THE EARTH. BY YOUR WORKS, JESUS, THE HEAVENS ARE ESTABLISHED.

Luke 21:33?” Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.

Words = Logos. The heavens and the Earth will pass away, but the specific purpose, functional intention and motive behind the Messiah will not pass away. The plan of redemption as fulfilled by Christ will never pass away.

I could add a lot more detail but frankly I am tired and I know that those that are doctrinally oriented will not accept anything outside of their preconceived ideas of doctrine. In other words I tire of the game for today.

March 14, 2008 at 6:50 pm#107905

martian

Participant

Quote (seek and you will find @ Mar. 15 2008,06:06)

Quote (martian @ Mar. 15 2008,04:09)

Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 13 2008,10:11)

Martian wrote:
John 17:5″ And now, O Father glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

What was with God before the world was? The glory for Jesus. We also have glory set aside for us, that does not mean that we were there before the world was.

And Gene writes:
They have to torque the words to make it come out a different way.

22″The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one;
23I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me.
24″Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.
25″O righteous Father, although the world has not known You, yet I have known Y
ou; and these have known that You sent Me;
26and I have made Your name known to them, and will make it known, so that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them.”
(Is this a pre-existant love and glory that Christ gives to us? Obviously not! It is simply another example of comparison between Christ and us.)

Martian You are interpeting Johm 17:5 wrong it says
And now O Father glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before THE WORLD WAS.

It has nothing to do with Jesus crucifixtion.
It has everything to do with the preexsisting of Jesus. Why is it that you want to make something else out of it, I really cant understand you.

Before Jesus became a Man He was a Spirit being and that He gave up when He emptied Himself and became a Man.

Rev. 3:14 ” These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, THE BEGINNING OF THE CREATION OG GOD.

Col. 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
For by Him all things were created that are in Heaven and that are in the earth…….

HE WAS THERE BEFORE ANYTHING WAS.

Then He also became the firsborn of the dead.
Com. 1:18 And He is the head of the body the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things
He may have PREEMINENCE.

Peeminence means first in all.

Peace and Love Mrs.

You have not taken into consideration the Hebrew mindset and therefore will never understand these scriptues.

March 14, 2008 at 9:04 pm#107906

Mr. Steve

Participant

To all;

Hebrews 1 is filled with God from God, Light from Light. The scripture is clear he is distinct from the angels being “made” so much better than the angels, as he hath by “inheritance” obtained a more excellent name than they.

“Thou art my Son, this “day” have I begotten thee.” Begotten on a certain day and the Son from the time he was begotten.

The Father is the God of Christ according to verse 9, “therefore, God, even thy God…”

In the beginning of verse 10 we see “And” joining the verse to the prior, he is the creator of heaven and earth. The Father gave him his fullness including the power to create with him.

The Father is still the God of Christ and works on his behalf, “Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.” vs. 13

Therefore, since the Christ laid the foundations of the earth and heaven with his Father, vs. 5 which states “this day have I begotten thee must have occurred before the foundation of the world.

Steven

March 14, 2008 at 9:51 pm#107907

martian

Participant

The truth is, that like the Trinity and the Dual nature of Christ, the teaching of a pre-existent Christ is nothing more then an abstract mental picture without purpose or function. It serves no one and produces no fruit. It’s only reason for existence is to give some false philosophy to attempt to understand scripture. In order to believe it one must completely ignore most of the principles of proper Bible interpretation.

People pick up their modern English translations with manufactured punctuation, capitals and Western interpretations and think they know what the scripture really says. They never consider that most English translations have been heavily influenced by the doctrines of the translators. It is much easier to just accept the translator’s doctrinal bent then it is to actually study what God is saying. It is even easier when one starts with a preconceived idea of doctrine and begin their search looking for proof rather then truth.
Most Christians are in blissful ignorance when it comes to understanding the people that wrote scripture or their mindset or culture. They falsely assume that everyone thinks in the same abstract ways as Western cultures. For this reason most of the false religions and doctrine exist in the world.
Someone told them that Christ pre-existed and from then on every scripture that can be manipulated without proper principles is subject to interpretation through that doctrine. No one really wants to face the real important questions. Questions like “How does this doctrine help me to become like Christ?” or “How does this doctrine point to Christ as a more viable example for me?” The reason why these questions are not asked is because those that believe these doctrines cannot answer them. They cannot answer what Christ was like in this pre-existence or what happened to his memories and life prior to His birth to Mary? So steeped in their philisophical abstract reasoning that they refuse to admit that their doctrine brings into question the fact that Christ is a complete human, made like His brethren in every way.
The speculate that it had no effect on Christ’s complete humanity, but all of it is speculation, since there is no scripture clearly stating that. The refuse to acknowledge that it confuses the issue even though God is not an author of confusion.
I can ask reasonable questions of their doctrine all day long but rarely do I get a reasonable answer. Usually I will get “God’s ways are higher then our ways” which amounts to a cop out that they cannot answer the questions. Sometimes I get “Just accept it by faith” coming from someone who obviously does not understand faith at all. Faith is literally a working toward the will of God. Doing things that help to bring about the will of God in your life. Doing things that help to complete God’s plan in you and others. Where in all of this pre-existent doctrine is there something to work toward? What do I do within this doctrine to bring about God’s will?
The doctrine of obedience –
I obey God and it produces righteousness.
The doctrine of salvation –
I accept Christ sacrifice for me and it produces salvation.
The doctrine of the resurrection –
I believe that Christ rose from the dead and it produces hope that I will be raised from the dead.
The doctrine of overcoming sin –
I use Christ as my perfect example and overcome as He did and it produces freedom continual sin.
The doctrine of vulnerability –
I open my heart to God in it’s most intimate places and God draws closer to me producing a love relationship with Him.

Even facts about God’s nature produce fruit. God is invisible. I cannot see God so I must see the ways in which He has revealed Himself to man in our physical realm. When I see God manifest Himself to me it builds hope. When I see Him revealed in Christ it confirms what perfected humanity is like and again builds hope that the plan of God works and hope and assurance of what I can become.

I keep knocking and the door is opened. I keep seeking and I find. I keep asking and I am answered.
Over and over and over God’s teachings produce fruit.

Christ pre-existed and that teaching produces what? Mental, intellectual, abstract philosophy. An imagination that lifts itself up above the truth of God. Not one thing that produces a fruit of the Spirit. Not one thing that changes the heart or character of man. Not one thing that clearifies Christ as my example. Not one thing that moves me farther along in God’s plan.
Those that are spending hours and pages trying to convince others that this pre-existing Christ doctrine is true are wasting the time of those that read it. At best you are sidetracking people from real doctrines that actually produce positive changes in their lives. Believing that you are establishing the truth from scripture is a lie if that truth you establish does not promote the plan of God and help others to complete that plan in their individual lives. Your doctrine produces no fruit in people’s lives. It only produces ambiguity, confusion and more questions.

March 14, 2008 at 9:55 pm#107908

NickHassan

Participant

Hi martain,
So truth is only truthful if you find it useful?
Does logic rule God?

March 14, 2008 at 11:03 pm#107909

seek and you will find

Participant

Martian Truth is Truth and when Scripture so plainly leads me to that truth how can I deny that? Hebrew is very nicely explained by Steven. And

Col 1:15-18 explains all and so does Rev. 3:14 You cannot explain that away. Proverbs 8:22-30 why is all so hard for you to understand, I don't get it. Sorry.

Peace and Love Mrs.

March 15, 2008 at 2:34 pm#107910

martian

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 15 2008,09:55)

Hi martain,
So truth is only truthful if you find it useful?
Does logic rule God?

What are you on this Earth for? Are you here to acquire head knowledge or are you on here to complete the plan God has for your life? Are you here to attempt to mentally ascend to heaven or are you here to have your character and heart molded and changed to become like Christ?

Ar you here to promote God plans for His creation or are you here to flood others minds with things that have nothing to do with it?

God is goal oriented. He has a plan for His creation. Our job is to work within the perameters of tht plan to help bring about the desired goal.
The goal of God is to raise up children unto himself. Children with the same character as He. What does it look like to have the character of God in a human being? For that vrey purpose God established his son on the Earth. The perfect example of God in man. There is no ambiguity in Christ and there will be no excuses for those that do not pursue being like Christ. No ne will stand in the judgement and say “Well I could not really be like christ because he was God” or “I was confused by His pre-existence and thought he had an advantage over us? or “Jesus pre-existed so how can I be like him?” Our Father was very carefull in His plan to leave no mystery or ambiguity behind. He is for us succeeding.

One thing is certain – God is not inteested in anything that does not support His ultimate goal for His creation. Any teaching He brings serves that purpose and He wants that purpose known to us.

Since God judges by the heart and not the acquired knowledge of the head – truth is only usefull if it serves the plan and purposes of God. I understand the entertanment value of this forum. If you are implying that your attempt to prove the pre-existence of Christ is for entertainment purposes, then I will agree. If you attempt to tell me it is God's desire that you prove it I will say you have not the leading of God, but of your own imagination.

March 15, 2008 at 3:01 pm#107911

martian

Participant

Quote (Mr. Steve @ Mar. 15 2008,09:04)

To all;

“Thou art my Son, this “day” have I begotten thee.” Begotten on a certain day and the Son from the time he was begotten.

The Father is the God of Christ according to verse 9, “therefore, God, even thy God…”

In the beginning of verse 10 we see “And” joining the verse to the prior, he is the creator of heaven and earth. The Father gave him his fullness including the power to create with him.

The Father is still the God of Christ and works on his behalf, “Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.” vs. 13

Therefore, since the Christ laid the foundations of the earth and heaven with his Father, vs. 5 which states “this day have I begotten thee must have occurred before the foundation of the world.

Steven

Poor scholarship. You still take the English and go no farther. You do not even cross reference the scriptures!
You claim that the “and” ties verses 10 through 12 to Christ. You claim that this proves that Christ created the world and therefore must have pre-existed.

Verses 10 through 12 is a direct quote of Psalms 102 verses 25 through 27. Verse 24 clearly indicates that the one being spoken of is God. The Hebrew word is EL. Are you prepared to tell me that Christ is literally EL?
This is also verified by Gen 1:1 and Neh 9:6

March 15, 2008 at 3:25 pm#107912

martian

Participant

Quote (seek and you will find @ Mar. 15 2008,11:03)

Martian Truth is Truth and when Scripture so plainly leads me to that truth how can I deny that? Hebrew is very nicely explained by Steven. And

Col 1:15-18 explains all and so does Rev. 3:14 You cannot explain that away. Proverbs 8:22-30 why is all so hard for you to understand, I don't get it. Sorry.

Peace and Love Mrs.

Complete circular reasoning. you assume that your interpretation of scripture is correct and then go from there. Because scripture can be interpreted in many diffeent ways. (right and wrong) There must be another standard. Scripture is not the standard. Christ and the plan of God are the standards.
No true teaching will contradict the physical characteristics of God or the character of God.
No true teaching will invalidate the complete humanity of Christ.
No true teaching will invalidate Christ as our example.
No true teaching will hinder the plan of God.

No matter what interpretation you come up with if it does any of the above it is simply wrong. No way around it!

March 15, 2008 at 6:26 pm#107913

NickHassan

Participant

Quote (martian @ Mar. 16 2008,02:34)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 15 2008,09:55)

Hi martain,
So truth is only truthful if you find it useful?
Does logic rule God?

Ar you here to promote God plans for His creation or are you here to flood others minds with things that have nothing to do with it?

One thing is certain – God is not inteested in anything that does not support His ultimate goal for His creation. Any teaching He brings serves that purpose and He wants that purpose known to us.

Hi martian,
You speak as if you and you alone can understand the plans and ways of God.
I think that is unlikely to be true from several points of view.

March 16, 2008 at 5:17 am#107914

Lightenup

Participant

Hi Martian,

You have asked, “Christ pre-existed and that teaching produces what?”

My answer:

Believing that Christ pre-existed as the Son of God has been the biggest eye opener of my spiritual life. It has changed my life and I am so much more interested in studying scripture and doing God's will than I was before . That has been 15 years now. I think about it everyday. By realizing that the Son of God had a beginning and was directly begotten from the Father before the foundation of the world, I have come to appreciate many things.

1. One thing is that the Most High God wanted a son and wanted to give Him a very important role as to help Him create everything in heaven and on earth. He is a God that could have done it by Himself but didn't. He loved His son and gave Him that joy. So, I see God more personally because I see a parent's heart. I teach my kids and enjoy it so much when they catch on and can do things with the wisdom I have passed on to them. How many times I have heard “Mommy look” as they show me that they can do those things that I have been teaching them. They receive joy often because I am so pleased with them.

2. Another way that I have benefited was by realizing how special and above us the Son of God is. The Most High God used His Son to create through and no one else. He is called the begotten God and I see Him that way for believers. I believe that He is worthy to be my God that was begotten by His and my Most High God.

3. Also, I benefit by believing that the Son of God truly must realize just how much He is not equal to His Father because He absolutely knew that it wasn't Himself that was doing this marvelous creating alone but His Father working through Him. By experiencing His Father, as He created through Him, the Son could realize how amazing His Father was and is and have unshakeable faith in Him.

4. I see the Son exemplifying how to be a perfect child of God by just letting the Father work through Him. It motivates me to let my heavenly Father just work through me because when I cooperate with Him, He can do all things through me too, through His Son, great and mighty things. My own children could save themselves alot of grief if they would just cooperate with me instead of complain and drag their feet.

5. The Son's pre-existence shows me how different He responds to His Father than satan. The Son of God knows He is not equal to His Father, satan thinks he can be equal to the Most High God. Possibly Jesus' greatest strength is that He knows beyond a doubt that He is not nor ever will be His Father's equal because He was there in existence during creation.

The above list is some of the ways that the Son's pre-existence has dramatically influenced me as I seek to fulfill God's work as He works through me. You want to take this specialness away from the Son of God. Why? From my perspective, you miss so much, Martian, and you try so hard to keep missing it, all the while boasting in your knowledge claiming that no one benefits from a pre-existent Son of God. Well, I have benefited as well as many others on this forum. You speak as if you know everything with your absolutes and assumptions but you don't. Your love of God does not come across to me, sorry, but your arrogance does, sorry again. Still, it is good that you are studying. Perhaps we will all find the truth if we humble ourselves and not lean on our own understanding (or Greek and Hebrew understanding as well).

I hope for you God's best!

March 16, 2008 at 8:13 am#107915

Samuel

Participant

Haha …Mentally ascend to heaven.
Someones been watching too much Stargate Atlantis.

Well the main problem that I have with the Oneness belief is that it sort of denies that Jesus Christ is in fact Jesus Christ…that he is GOD himself. And, I'm having trouble finding in the bible where it flat out says Jesus Christ is or was GOD himself.

There are a few scriptures can be used to say this is so many words. But GOD himself is usually pretty clear when he makes a statement.

Like in the OT …
Exodus 6:2
And God spake unto Moses, and said unto him, I [am] the LORD: {the LORD: or, JEHOVAH}

Exodus 6:3
And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by [the name of] God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them.

So according to this scripture GODS name is I AM…or:
JEHOVAH= “the existing One”

1. the proper name of the one true God
1. unpronounced except with the vowel pointings of 0136

John 1:10
He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:2
The same was in the beginning with God.

John 1:14
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

In these scriptures we could assume that Jesus was GOD, Esp going by John 1:10. And if the Word is/was Jesus…then John 1:1 says that Jesus is GOD.

However the bible does not clearly state that. Even if that may indeed be the case. But in the old testament GOD clearly wanted everyone in the world to know that he was indeed GOD and that his name was JEHOVAH.

In the New Testament, the bible clearly states that Jesus Christ is the SON of that GOD. The very reason the Jews wanted him killed because to be the SON of GOD which they had know knowledge of GOD having a SON. Was basically saying that you are the same as GOD or equal to him…so they wanted to kill him.

I've had oneness use this scripture to try to explain to me that Jesus said that he was GOD:

Luke 22:70
Then said they all, Art thou then the Son of God? And he said unto them, Ye say that I am.

And they have said “See..there! he said that he was the I AM”
No…he said “Ye say that I am.” In response to a question that was asked “Are you the Son of GOD?” Which in fact he was the Son of GOD. That is what my bible teaches me. And by this scripture:

Matthew 28:18
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

And this one:

6Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

7But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

8And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

9Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

10That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

11And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

…We can see that All power is given to the SON. And weather or not Jesus is or is not GOD…all are still going to bow to the Name of Jesus. And, that every tongue is going to confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of GOD the Father.

And whats this all about?:

Hebrews 1

1God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

2Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

3Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

4Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

5For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

6And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

7And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

8But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

9Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

10And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:

11They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;

12And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.

13But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?

14Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

And then with the Trinity…
Where all three or GOD. Well GOD is JEHOVAH, and Jesus Christ is the SON of the Living GOD I.E. JEHOVAH, and the Holy Spirit is the comforter the way the bible tells it.

We know that currently at this time or “This Age” that all power in heaven and earth has been given to The Lord Jesus Christ the Son of the Living GOD. That is sitting at the right Hand of the Father.

So…it seems to me that a lot of people are so bent out of shape, over who has the truth that they don't want to get with people and pray and put the truths together. Instead they would rather go about saying “I am right and you are wrong”. Which is not a spirit that we are taught to have either.

So…I'm going to try to leave my self open to the fact that I just might maybe…being as how that I am a man …I might actually be wrong. Something that I think we should all do.

Look how many times Peter thought he was right…and found out he was wrong.

We make mistakes…its ok. We just need to accept that and help get more people to the church before the times runs out.

Thats what this is all about folks. Getting people to the word of GOD and to believe on the Name Jesus Christ and repent of their sins and be baptized and all that.

Not “Well we are right and your wrong” and this and that. and yada yada…

This division. And we all know the saying…”Divide and conquer”

We must not let this happen to us. Please I beg of you all …please do not let this happen. Hold true to the teachings of Christ, and of the Father.

Remember what he said to us? “If you love me you will keep my commandments”

Is this keeping his commandments?

March 16, 2008 at 8:28 am#107916

NickHassan

Participant

Hi Samuel,
Men are being baptised in the name of a strange trinity god.
That so called god does not appear in the bible.
So that means such a god is an idol.

1Jn5
21Little children, keep yourselves from idols

March 16, 2008 at 8:35 am#107917

seek and you will find

Participant

Quote (Samuel @ Mar. 16 2008,20:13)