The Trinity Doctrine

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 17 2008,07:50)

Hi WJ,
You say in trinitarianese
“When God speaks to you is it the Father or Jesus or the Holy Spirit?”
Your confusion comes from the ignorance you have caused yourself by accepting false doctrine

NH
I have no confusion. It is you apparantly because you cant answer the question!

January 16, 2008 at 9:40 pm#107301

Participant

Hi WJ,
You quote Jn16 referring to the Spirit of God

” 13Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

14He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

15All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you. “

So Jesus is given all authority and power.
The Spirit reminds us of what Jesus has said.

The Spirit is the Spirit of his Father God ever proceeding from God,
so God reveals the truth of Christ's words through that Spirit of Christ, of God in us.

January 16, 2008 at 9:41 pm#107302

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 17 2008,08:32)

Hi Wj,
God indeed came in the flesh of His Son, Jesus Christ.
But Jesus was not that God within him.

Yes Jesus was not the Father, he is the Word/God who came in the flesh!

January 16, 2008 at 9:43 pm#107303

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 17 2008,08:40)

Hi WJ,
You quote Jn16 referring to the Spirit of God

14He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

15All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you. “

So Jesus is given all authority and power.
The Spirit reminds us of what Jesus has said.

The Spirit is the Spirit of his Father God ever proceeding from God,
so God reveals the truth of Christ's words through that Spirit of Christ, of God in us.

Did you forget the “all things that the Father hath are mine”?

January 16, 2008 at 9:45 pm#107304

Participant

Later I have to gather with the believers and have a post for ron to work on!

January 16, 2008 at 9:48 pm#107305

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 17 2008,08:41)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 17 2008,08:32)

Hi Wj,
God indeed came in the flesh of His Son, Jesus Christ.
But Jesus was not that God within him.

Yes Jesus was not the Father, he is the Word/God who came in the flesh!

Hi WJ,
So that as a man his flesh was as much an integral aspect of his being as ours is, and he could and did die, only being kept alive in the ever faithful Spirit of God by which he was raised.

God cannot die.

January 16, 2008 at 9:52 pm#107306

Participant

All of the scriptures you quoted are about Jesus after his resurrection. Do we know exactly what power or authority he may have to speak to all humanity or dwell in them or be with them? We know that He sits on the right hand of authority in heaven. We know that He has all authority in heaven and Earth. We know that He is the Messiah and would be granted the gifts and authorities to complete that mission. Can anyone measure the limits to that power or position? Can anyone list every gift YHWH gave his chosen and appointed Messiah so that He could finish his mission. That mission did not stop with his resurrection. He still works to bring about salvation in humanity. When on Earth, he could only deal with a small group of people. (as compared to the number even then existing) After completing the first part of his mission (that of his Earthly ministry), He now continues to work for the benefit of man from a much more powerful position at the right hand of power in heaven. God has proven time and again His willingness to give gifts to man to accomplish His will on the Earth. How much more would He give His Messiah to continue the work of the mantle He gave him. So now Jesus has the ability to speak to all of humanity and be in all of them. Seems reasonable to me.
Is Jesus a “mere” man of flesh and blood now that he has been resurrected and glorified? Of course not. We will not be the same either.
You say –
“I followed my Dad growing up, but now he is dead and I cant follow him.”
Response –
This is completely comparing apples and oranges.
1.Jesus is resurrected, is your dad?
2.Jesus was given all authority in Heaven and Earth, does your dad have those things?
3.Jesus now sits at the right hand of authority in heaven, does your dad?
4.Jesus has been glorified, has your dad?
5.Jesus has the mantle of the Messiah and the gifts attendant with that calling, does your dad?
6.Jesus is the mediator between God and man with all the attendants gifts needed for that mission, does your dad?

None of this requires that Christ be deity. Everything that Christ did on earth and now does in heaven must be qualified by the fact that ALL AUTHORITY in Heaven and Earth has been given to him.

You say –
I follow his Spirit which is God! You want to follow the flesh tent that he lived in!

Response –
I follow YHWH/Elohim the invisible Spirit. I follow Him through the human mediator that He, Himself appointed. I do not confuse the human sprit that Christ possessed with the presence/Spirit of God that indwelled him, any more then I confuse my own human spirit with the Spirit of God that is in me.
I follow Jesus as my savior and example of perfected humanity. I follow him because He is the door and the foreunner for the rest of humanity. I immulate him because He exemplifies what it is like to have the character of God in a human being.
He is my brother and I give him honor as my King and gratitude for the magnificent sacrifice he made for me. I interface with Christ because He is the mediator between God and man. I can and do pray to my heavenly father and also speak to my brother Jesus when I am faced with how to walk with God.
YHWH/Elohim is God and my father. He is also the Father of Jesus my brother. He has revealed Himself through His only begotten human son Jesus. Revealed in the human Jesus so that we would know what it means for humans like us to become one with God. Jesus prayed that we would be one with He and God. All of us achieving a oneness together. This prayer of Christ is in the exact same context as the statement in which Jesus says He and his Father are one. He is speaking of the same oneness for us. If Jesus is one with God because Jesus is deity, then Jesus prayed for us to become deity.
Because Jesus is one with God, when I interface with Jesus, I am also interfacing with God. Not because Jesus is deity, but because He, as a human, has become one with God.

Is there a difference between Jesus and us? Yes, but not in nature or makeup only in position and accomplishment. He was made like is in every way. Not in all ways except his nature. He is called man and son of man.(anthropos) the exact same word as is applied to the rest of humanity. It has no other meaning in the Greek.
Scripture is very clear that Jesus had a human body, soul and spirit. It is also clear that Jesus had the spirit of God dwelling in him. Again this is identical to the rest of humanity. No need for Christ to be deity to meet these things. YHWH/Elohim, the invisible, omnipresent, omniscient, spirit revealed himself to man in terms and ways we can understand.

You seem to want to equate following Jesus with worshipping Jesus. This seems to be based on a false concept that “worship” is restricted to God alone. This is not the meaning of the word. Worship means to bow down and give honor. I do that to both Jesus and my heavenly father. Even as Moses bowed down to a burning bush which revealed God to him, I bow down to God revealed in Christ and to my Earthly King and savior.
Throughout the Bible we see YHWH/Elohim reveal himself to man. Scripture even says that the creation itself testifies of Him. He is revealed in types and shadows and in some cases more personal terms as with Moses and the burning bush or the High Priest and the Shikhina glory. YHWH/Elohim, the invisible, omnipresent, omniscient, spirit, was gracious enough to us to reveal himself in a manner that we of the corporeal natural realm could understand. His most perfect revealing was in Jesus. So great is the love of Elohim for His creation that He showed very clearly the character and heart of himself in terms that we could understand. God in Christ showed that character and heart. Jesus showed and led us to see the way in which God created us to be.

January 16, 2008 at 9:52 pm#107307

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 17 2008,08:45)

Later I have to gather with the believers and have a post for ron to work on!

Hi WJ,
Do those who do not believe what is not written about God, that He is a trinity, become labelled as non believers?

I believe in the God of Jesus.
I believe in the Son of God

Jn 14
1Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

Jn 3
31He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all.

32And what he hath seen and heard, that he testifieth; and no man receiveth his testimony.

33He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true.

34For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.

35The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.

36He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

You seem to get them mixed up yet judge others?

January 16, 2008 at 9:54 pm#107308

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 17 2008,08:43)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 17 2008,08:40)

Hi WJ,
You quote Jn16 referring to the Spirit of God

14He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

15All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you. “

So Jesus is given all authority and power.
The Spirit reminds us of what Jesus has said.

The Spirit is the Spirit of his Father God ever proceeding from God,
so God reveals the truth of Christ's words through that Spirit of Christ, of God in us.

Did you forget the “all things that the Father hath are mine”?

Hi WJ,
Jn3
35The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.

January 16, 2008 at 10:33 pm#107309

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 17 2008,08:43)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 17 2008,08:40)

Hi WJ,
You quote Jn16 referring to the Spirit of God

14He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

15All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you. “

So Jesus is given all authority and power.
The Spirit reminds us of what Jesus has said.

The Spirit is the Spirit of his Father God ever proceeding from God,
so God reveals the truth of Christ's words through that Spirit of Christ, of God in us.

Did you forget the “all things that the Father hath are mine”?

How many times does it need to be said that all authority was given to Jesus. He did not have it if it needed to be given to him.
We are heirs and jpoint heirs with Christ. He inheirts these things, just as we will.

January 16, 2008 at 11:04 pm#107310

Participant

WJ,
BTW, How much authority is “all”? You have said that a mere man could not hear all the prayers of evryone and speak to everyone.
1. What authority does Jesus now posses now that he is glorified and at the right hand of power in heaven?
2. Was He able to speak to all men or hear all men while on Earth? Don't know. It is written that he did more then all the books in the world could fill. We also know that He could hear what the pharasees said in their hearts. Hmmmmmm.

January 16, 2008 at 11:07 pm#107311

kenrch

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 15 2008,12:31)

kenrch

You say…

Quote

Then the Word became flesh. Does that mean that the Word God became flesh? When the Word God became flesh the Word gave up being Word God to become as we are flesh born under the law.

So God ceased to be God? So the eternal Word changed? God changed?

No God didnt change because Jesus is the Word/God, God tabernacled among us, Jn 1:14. Phil 2, He took on the likeness of sinfull flesh. God lived in a flesh tent that died and rose again.

The Lord from heaven the second Adam returned to his previous Glory that he shared as God. He was and is the Word/God that was with God and is God.

Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Is there a difference made flesh~became flesh~?

OK!

Who was this “flesh/tent”? Who was the son of man? Did Jesus the son of man have a will of his own as we do? Or was he just a clone of God?

January 16, 2008 at 11:30 pm#107312

Participant

Quote (kenrch @ Jan. 17 2008,10:07)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 15 2008,12:31)

kenrch

You say…

Quote

Then the Word became flesh. Does that mean that the Word God became flesh? When the Word God became flesh the Word gave up being Word God to become as we are flesh born under the law.

So God ceased to be God? So the eternal Word changed? God changed?

No God didnt change because Jesus is the Word/God, God tabernacled among us, Jn 1:14. Phil 2, He took on the likeness of sinfull flesh. God lived in a flesh tent that died and rose again.

The Lord from heaven the second Adam returned to his previous Glory that he shared as God. He was and is the Word/God that was with God and is God.

Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Is there a difference made flesh~became flesh~?

OK!

Who was this “flesh/tent”? Who was the son of man? Did Jesus the son of man have a will of his own as we do? Or was he just a clone of God?

This concept of the flesh tent Is pure gnosticism and dualism.

This false belief has been around a long time. When Christianity spread to the Greek thinking world it was heavily influenced by their philosophies. Many students of Greek philosophy were being saved and as such brought their concepts into the church. As is often the case some so called “scholars”, from this period forward, began to interpret scripture with preconceived ideas of a gnostic or dualistic world. From gnosticim came the concept of Jesus being a separate God from the God of the Old Testament. From Dualism came the concept that Jesus could never be fully of the natural realm or fully human. His humanity needed to be augmented in some way to avoid him being of the evil natural realm.

A one-sentence description of Gnosticism is; A religion that differentiates the evil god of this world (who is identified with the God of the Old Testament) from a higher more abstract God revealed by Jesus Christ, a religion that regards this world as the creation of a series of evil archons/powers who wish to keep the human soul trapped in an evil physical body. Gnostics conjured up the idea that Christ was a spiritual being in a physical shell in order to avoid the concept of him having an “Evil Physical Body of the “Evil physical realm”.

Dualism is a Greek Philosophy that takes gnosticim even farther. It teaches there are two realms, one evil and one holy. Dualists believe that only the transcendental spiritual realm of God like forces is holy. The lower natural earthly realm was considered evil and nothing good could be of that world.

January 16, 2008 at 11:35 pm#107313

kenrch

Participant

Is the Holy Spirit the spirit of Jesus the son of man who was filled and born to God the Father?

The Holy Spirit could not come unless Jesus left. When we gather in Jesus' name what is in our midst?

Jesus said HE will be in our midst.

Mat 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

January 16, 2008 at 11:55 pm#107314

Participant

Quote (martian @ Jan. 17 2008,10:30)

Quote (kenrch @ Jan. 17 2008,10:07)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 15 2008,12:31)

kenrch

You say…

Quote

Then the Word became flesh. Does that mean that the Word God became flesh? When the Word God became flesh the Word gave up being Word God to become as we are flesh born under the law.

So God ceased to be God? So the eternal Word changed? God changed?

No God didnt change because Jesus is the Word/God, God tabernacled among us, Jn 1:14. Phil 2, He took on the likeness of sinfull flesh. God lived in a flesh tent that died and rose again.

The Lord from heaven the second Adam returned to his previous Glory that he shared as God. He was and is the Word/God that was with God and is God.

Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Is there a difference made flesh~became flesh~?

OK!

Who was this “flesh/tent”? Who was the son of man? Did Jesus the son of man have a will of his own as we do? Or was he just a clone of God?

This concept of the flesh tent Is pure gnosticism and dualism.

Hi Martian,
Paul, the tentmaker, lived in a tent or tabernacle.
But this was not the natural man but the renewed inner man.

1For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

2For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

3If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

4For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

5Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.

6Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

7(For we walk by faith, not by sight:)

8We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

January 17, 2008 at 1:44 am#107315

ronday888

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 14 2008,12:38)

Quote (ronday888 @ Jan. 14 2008,13:57)

There are so many viewpoints being expressed that it is difficult to keep up with who believes what.

Regardless, in answer to the question: What attributes does the Father have that the son doesn't?

(1) Jesus does not share the attribute of being the God and Father of Jesus with his God and Father.
http://tinyurl.com/3cvbuc

(2) Jesus does not share the attribute of being the only Most High with his God and Father. — John 10:29.
http://tinyurl.com/yjnj7v

(3) Jesus does not share the attribute of being uncreated, having no beginning, being unbegotten, with his God and Father. — Colossians 1:15.

(4) Jesus does not share the attribute of being the Creator with his God and Father. — Mark 10:16; 13:19

(5) Jesus does not share the attribute of being only true God who sent Jesus. — John 17:1,3.

(6) Jesus does not share the attribute of being “God of gods” with his God and Father.
http://tinyurl.com/2gbjxj

(7) Jesus does not share the attribute of being “God Almighty” with his God and Father.
http://tinyurl.com/2b8qf5

There could be more; these seven stand out in my mind.

Additionally, Jesus' God and Father is never spoken of as being the image of God.

In service of Jesus and his God,
Ronald

Ron

Try again.

Those are not attributes of God.

So, are then to think God does not have the attributes of being the God and Father of Jesus, the Most High, uncreated, the only true God (who sent Jesus), God Almighty, and God of gods?

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 14 2008,12:38)

And none of them deal with the nature of the Father and Yeshua and the Holy Spirit!

Of course, they do! At least, as far the God and Father of Jesus; I was not trying to show what Jesus is by nature. I was mainly showing the attributes that belong only to Yahweh by nature. Only Yahweh is, by nature, uncreated, God of gods, the Most High, etc.

However, Jesus, by nature, is the son of the Most High. He is not the Most High of whom he is the son. Jesus, by nature, before he came to the earth, was a mighty spirit being (the Logos). While flesh, he was not, by nature, a son of disobedience, nor a son of wrath (Ephesians 2:1-3), for his body of flesh was specially prepared by God. By nature of his becoming flesh, he was by nature a little lower than the angels. (Hebrews 2:9) Thus, by nature, as a human, he was a son of God, as was Adam before Adam sinned. (Luke 3:38) Thus, by nature, in him, in his flesh, was life (John 1:4), for in him was no sin. (1 John 3:5) By nature of his not having sin, Jesus never fell short of the glory of his God. (Romans 3:23) By nature of his obedience to his God and Father, Jesus brought life and incorruption to light (1 Timothy 1:10), Whereas, Adam, by nature of his sin, brought death and a bondage of corruption to mankind. (Romans 5:15-19; 8:20,21) By nature of Jesus' sacrifice of his flesh, he was put to death in the flesh, but raised in the spirit; he became, by nature of his being exalted by the only true God, a life-giving spirit. — 1 Peter 3:18; 1 Corinthians 15:45.

Of course, I realize that most of the above does not fit what the trinitarian would define by the term “nature”, but I simply stay by what the Bible says. See the study I have written on the “divine nature”:
http://godandson.reslight.net/d-n.html
See also:
Was Jesus Divine As a Human?
http://reslight.net/forum/index.php?topic=179.0

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 14 2008,12:38)

The things you quote are with the premise that Jesus is not deity, and in no way prove he is not.

No, for I do not deny the deity of Jesus; I only show the Biblical usage of the words for “deity” as it relates to Jesus and others.
http://godandson.reslight.net/hebraictitles.html

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 14 2008,12:38)

None of the things you mention deal with
Jn 1:14,

John 1:14 – The Word became flesh, and lived among us. We saw his glory, such glory as of the only Son of the Father, full of grace and truth.

Many wish to read this is saying: God Almighty took upon Himself a body of flesh, or that, God Almighty was incarnated* in the flesh. That, of course, is not what John said. Directly, it says: “The Logos”, identified and John 17:5 as the prehuman Jesus who was the only true God in the beginning (John 17:1,3,5; 1:1,2), became (or 'was made'), not took upon himself, nor incarnated in, flesh. If the Logos here identifies God Almighty Himself, then God Almighty Himself “became” actual flesh. In other words, as stated, the actual flesh being called Jesus was God Almighty, rather than God Almighty being incarnated in the flesh as trinitarian dogma usually claims.
=====
*I am using the word “incarnated” in the dualitistic sense that trinitarians use that word.

Of course, I do indeed believe that the Logos, the prehuman Jesus, was indeed made flesh. He gave up the glory he had with his God and Father, and became flesh, as the scriptures show.

God willing, I will return to this later.

In service of Jesus and his God,
Ronald

January 17, 2008 at 2:22 am#107316

ronday888

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 15 2008,14:04)

Ron
This is the relationship Jesus had with the Father…

Jn 5:17
But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.
18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.[/color].

John 5:17 – Jesus answered them, “My Father is still working, so I am working, too.” == World English Bible translation (WEB).

Here Jesus speaks of the great sabbath that Yahweh began when He rested from his works of creation. (Genesis 2:1,2) Yahweh entered into rest at that time, but it does not mean that he did absolutely no work. (Hebrews 4:10) Jesus says that just as his Father is still working, so he was also working.

John 5:18 – For this cause therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only broke the Sabbath, but also called God his own Father, making himself equal with God. — WEB.

John here states the legal cause for which the Jewish leaders were seeking to kill Jesus. Of course, as Jesus had shown before, he had not broken God's law concerning the sabbath, but he had broken the law of the Jews, the traditional laws that the Jews had attached to the Law. Jesus had already shown that what they were doing by their traditions wass, in effect, make void the Law. (Matthew 15:1-9; Mark 7:3-16)

Thus John wrote: “For this cause the Jews persecuted Jesus, and sought to kill him, because he did these things on the Sabbath.” (John 5:16) Please note that John does not say their “cause” was right, or that Jesus actually broke the Sabbath. John simply presents the “cause” or argument that these Jews were using. From Matthew 26:4 and Mark 14:1 we see that this was a deceptive argument. We read in Matthew that Jesus asks them: “Why do you think evil in your hearts?” (Matthew 9:4) In John we read that Jesus said: “My Father is still working, so I am working, too.” (John 5:17) Jesus refers to the work that his Father had given him to do. (John 5:36; 10:25,32) Nothing is said by Jesus about the his works being equal to the works of God, and that from this we know that Jesus is God. In actuality, Jesus is saying that God was the source of his power to perform the works of healing on the sabbath, that as God did not cease from doing this work, therefore Jesus, as his Son, does continue to do these works also. Jesus often referred to his Father as God (John 6:27,45; 8:54; 10:36; 13:3; 20:17); this shows that Jesus is not Yahweh, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob whom he refers to as his Father. — Matthew 22:32; Mark 12:26; Luke 20:37.

Nevertheless, our Lord's reply respecting his authority gave them more of an alledged legal “cause” in the eyes of the people to seek to kill Jesus. They did not wish to understand what he was saying; they were looking for some “cause” in his words whereby they might kill him without angrying the people.

In his words, however, Jesus had not declared himself to be God Almighty, as many seem to think; this was not the real reason for the anger of these Jewish leaders, but they were angry because he declared himself to be the Son of Yahweh. Their reasoning seemed to be: This self-proclaimed son of the Most High had been given a work to do by God? John wrote of them: “For this cause therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only broke the Sabbath, but also called God his own Father, making himself equal with God.” (John 5:18) Whether or not the Jews actually understood what Jesus meant by “Son of God”, the real reason for their anger was because, in claiming to be the Son of God, he was claiming an honor and place so much higher than themselves — a place which implied a closeness of relationship and of nature to Yahweh, a claim which they desire to appear to be blasphemous, thus the works that Jesus did in the name of Yahweh they considered to be an insult. Thus Jesus pointed out the real reason these Jewish leaders sought to kill him. (John 10:32) The claim that he was making himself God was false, regardless of what “understanding” they may have had. Jesus had earlier said to them: “Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word.” — John 7:43

These Jews had already made up their minds to kill Jesus long before (Matthew 12:10,14; Mark 3:2,6; 11:18; Luke 4:28,29; 6:7,11; 19:47; John 5:18; 8:6; 7:19,20; 8:37); now they were looking for a legal 'cause' (Greek, Aitia, Strong's #156; kategoria, Strong's #2723, #2724) to lyingly accuse him.

Both Matthew and Mark truthfully tell us that “they took counsel together that they might take Jesus by deceit (Greek, dolos), and kill him.” (Matthew 26:4; see also Mark 14:1) Thus we can be rest assured that, since their ways were deceitful, their “causes” to kill him are deceitful causes, and they were the liars in their cause to kill Jesus.

In John 7:1 we read of one of the instances where it is stated that the Jewish leaders were seeking to kill him. When Jesus confronted them with this, they denied it, proving themselves liars. (John 7:19,20) He then shows that the real reason they were seeking to kill him was because of his works. (verse 21). Jesus had earlier shown that they did not believe because their heart was not right. (Matthew 12:24-32; 15:3-12) In Luke 6:7 we find the Jewish leaders were watching him that they might find an accusation against him. In Luke 11:54, we see that they were lying in wait for him, and seeking to catch him in something he might say, that they might accuse him. Thus we have no reason to believe the cause they were making that Jesus was making himself equal to the Supreme. Again, as already shown, Jesus pointed out the real reason they sought to kill him as recorded in John 10:32. Therefore, the “causes” were really simply excuses to kill Jesus, not that Jesus had actually broken the sabbath, or that he actually claimed to be equal to God.
See also:
http://godandson.reslight.net/john-5-18.html

In service of Jesus and his God,
Ronald

January 17, 2008 at 6:25 am#107317

http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2889

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 15 2008,14:04)

Here Ill use your litterall translation…

John 1:3

panta di autou egeneto kai chwris autou

ALL (THINGS) THROUGH HIM CAME TO BE, AND APART FROM HIM

3956 1223 0846_3 1096 2532 5565 0846_3

egeneto oude hen

CAME TO BE NOT BUT ONE (THING).

1096 3761 1520

ho gegonen

WHICH HAS COME TO BE

3739 1096

Notice the…

AND APART FROM HIM

3956 1223 0846_3 1096 2532 5565 0846_3

egeneto oude hen

CAME TO BE NOT BUT ONE (THING).

1096 3761 1520

ho gegonen

WHICH HAS COME TO BE

3739 1096

So how do you get just man or dirt from that?

Quote (Ron @ Jan. 15 2008,14:04)

The above is form the Westcott & Hort Interlinear; my literal rendering, as I gave earlier on page 1004, is: All [Greek, panta, Strong's #3956] came to be through [Greek, di, Strong's #1223] him, and apart from him not [Greek, oude, Strong's #3956] one came to be.

Your literal rendering? What happened to Westcott & Hort litteral rendering.

Again, are you a greek scholar? What credentials do you have to change the text or translations?

Do you understand why they translated John 1:3 the way they did?

Do you understand words like case, gender, anarthrous, parsing, lexical forms, imperfect tense? How does the imperfect tense relate to a prepositional phrase at the start of a verse? Etc. Etc. Etc.

Yet you are trying to give us your ‘literal rendering” in opposition to the text and simply reading into John 1:3 your understanding claiming it does not mean what it says!

Look again…

without him *nothing was made* that has been made.

Quote (Ron @ Jan. 15 2008,14:04)

He said to them, “Go into all the world [Strong's #2889, a form of kosmos], and preach the gospel to the whole creation.”

Let me ask:
What is the “whole creation” [Greek transliteration: pasee tee ktisei, literally, all the creation] spoken of in Mark 16:15? Note “pasee” is a form of pas, Strong's 3956.

http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3956

What does this have to do with John 1:3? I do not see the word “world or kosmos” in John 1:3.

And as far making the argument that the Greek word “pasee” is a form of pas, Strong's 3956. therefore “All things were made by him” dosnt mean all things is a straw and an obvious smoke screen for the young and unskilled in the word.

The greek word “Pas” for “all things” in Jn 1:3 and “to every” in Mark 16:15 means;
1) individually
a) each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things, everything
2) collectively
a) some of all types

It is used several ways as you see. Depending on context, and many other factors like the rules of Greek grammer which determined why a particular verse was translated a certain way.

Example..

Matt 5:11
Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say [all manner] “Pas” of evil against you falsely, for my sake.

Here we see all manner of evil would be said falsly against us but this does not mean every evil.

Jn 5:23
That [all] “Pas” men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

So here we see all men should honour Yeshua even as they honour the Father. So we know that “ALL” means all here.

So your argument is fallacious! “Pas” can mean “all things” and in John 1:3 does.

Not only dose it say all things were made by him but it says…

without him *nothing was made* that has been made.

You come here trying to bring some new theology that Jesus was some mighty Spirit being before he was born, (what form you can not say), though we know the Word was with God and was God.

I might assume you think Yeshua was an angel which would make you a Jw or something.

Then you claim the Word created only humanity with no proof but a few scriptures you use to force another meaning on Jn 1:3.

Look at the translations again.

Jn 1:3
KJV All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. King James Version 1611, 1769

ASV All things were made through him; and without him was not anything made that hath been made. American Standard Version 1901 Info

Webster All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. Noah Webster Version 1833 Info

HNV All things were made through him. Without him was not anything made that has been made.

Plain English. The Translators already did the work.

I find it amusing that so many people that have these new doctrines try to redo the scriptures.

Yet I have not seen any of them scholars in Greek Aramaic or Hebrew. Most of the time they give us splintered quotes from scattered self appointed Theologians attempting to reinvent the wheel. Stick with the Word my friend!

Have to go for now.

Worshipping Jesus with my whole heart!

January 17, 2008 at 6:38 am#107318