The Trinity Doctrine

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Son of Light @ Jan. 12 2008,09:39)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 12 2008,09:29) Quote (Son of Light @ Jan. 12 2008,09:05) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 12 2008,09:01) Quote (acertainchap @ Jan. 12 2008,06:15) John 6:38, “For I came down from heaven not to do my own will, but the will of Him that sent me.”

We see Jesus’ non-identity with the Godhead, as he states that he is an agent of the Father whom sent him.

chap

Is the agent different in nature than the one who sent him?

If so, how?

Nature and Identity are two distinct things.

We are both humans.  But we aren’t the same being.

SOL

So goes the Henotheistic and Arian concept.

Yes, but we are talking about the substance and essence of what makes God God.

God is Spirit. Jesus is Spirit.

Unlike the nature of man, God can be everywhere all at the same time.

You try to make a distinction in the ontological nature of the Father and Jesus.

Since you do, then maybe you can show me a difference in the Father and the Son.

What attributes does the Father have that the Son dosnt?

In what way is Jesus different in nature than God?

Also you cant seperate I dentity from nature.

Can you seperate yourself from humanity?

Only the Father has ever existed.  The Father is greater than Jesus.  Only the Father exists in unapproable Light.

I agree with you that Jesus shares the nature of the Father.

But I also think we all will.  This makes the number of the Godhead rather large.

So yes we will all be elohim.  But amongst us will always be the source of all.  The very head of the Godhead.  The Father of all.

Yep

Pure Henotheism.

So will we dwell in one another?

Will we fill all things?

Will we uphold all things by the word of our power?

Will all things be through us and for us?

Will we sit in The throne with the Father and the Son being worshipped and praised with the Spirit proceeding from us (not through us) to all of creation?

Rev 22:1
And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, [was there] the tree of life, which bare twelve [manner of] fruits, [and] yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree [were] for the healing of the nations.
3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and *his servants shall serve him*:

No SOL we will not be part of the Godhead. Neither will we be gods.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Son of Light @ Jan. 12 2008,09:49)

Quote (Son of Light @ Jan. 12 2008,09:48) Quote (acertainchap @ Jan. 12 2008,09:43) Quote (Son of Light @ Jan. 12 2008,09:39) Only the Father has ever existed.  The Father is greater than Jesus.  Only the Father exists in unapproable Light.

I agree with you that Jesus shares the nature of the Father.

But I also think we all will.  This makes the number of the Godhead rather large.

So yes we will all be elohim.  But amongst us will always be the source of all.  The very head of the Godhead.  The Father of all.

So you believe in the trinity doctrine, then?

No.

A divine family that all share the same nature or substance.

BUT ONLY ONE ETERNAL FATHER AND SOURCE OF ALL.

SOL

Maybe you can show me a scripture that says the Yeshua “Shares” the nature of God?

[NickHassan]

Hi WJ,
So he was just a man sharing our nature.
But the whole basis of you argument has been that he is God.
But you have no scriptures that say he shares the nature of the God he is Son of?

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 12 2008,10:04)

Hi WJ, So  he was just a man sharing our nature. But the whole basis of you argument has been that he is God. But you have no scriptures that say he shares the nature of the God he is Son of?

NH

Thats because there is no scriptures that say Yeshua shares the nature of God.

Because his nature is God.

[Son of Light]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 12 2008,10:01)

Quote (Son of Light @ Jan. 12 2008,09:49) Quote (Son of Light @ Jan. 12 2008,09:48) Quote (acertainchap @ Jan. 12 2008,09:43) Quote (Son of Light @ Jan. 12 2008,09:39) Only the Father has ever existed.  The Father is greater than Jesus.  Only the Father exists in unapproable Light.

I agree with you that Jesus shares the nature of the Father.

But I also think we all will.  This makes the number of the Godhead rather large.

So yes we will all be elohim.  But amongst us will always be the source of all.  The very head of the Godhead.  The Father of all.

So you believe in the trinity doctrine, then?

No.

A divine family that all share the same nature or substance.

BUT ONLY ONE ETERNAL FATHER AND SOURCE OF ALL.

SOL

Maybe you can show me a scripture that says the Yeshua “Shares” the nature of God?

I would hope that you could do that. If you can’t that shoots down the trinity rather quickly.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Hi all!

Rev 22:1
And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, [was there] the tree of life, which bare twelve [manner of] fruits, [and] yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree [were] for the healing of the nations.
3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and *his servants shall serve him*:

Here we see the three. The Father and the Son, and the Holy Spirit proceeding from them!

“His servants shall serve him”!

Serve who? The Father or the Son or Holy Spirit? How many gods shall we serve?

You cant serve the Father or the Holy Spirit apart from the Son.

So when you say I serve God, really you are saying you are serving them!

The Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit are One!

So the next time God speaks to you then according to the Henotheist You should say “They spoke to me”.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Son of Light @ Jan. 12 2008,10:11)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 12 2008,10:01) Quote (Son of Light @ Jan. 12 2008,09:49) Quote (Son of Light @ Jan. 12 2008,09:48) Quote (acertainchap @ Jan. 12 2008,09:43) Quote (Son of Light @ Jan. 12 2008,09:39) Only the Father has ever existed.  The Father is greater than Jesus.  Only the Father exists in unapproable Light.

I agree with you that Jesus shares the nature of the Father.

But I also think we all will.  This makes the number of the Godhead rather large.

So yes we will all be elohim.  But amongst us will always be the source of all.  The very head of the Godhead.  The Father of all.

So you believe in the trinity doctrine, then?

No.

A divine family that all share the same nature or substance.

BUT ONLY ONE ETERNAL FATHER AND SOURCE OF ALL.

SOL

Maybe you can show me a scripture that says the Yeshua “Shares” the nature of God?

I would hope that you could do that.  If you can’t that shoots down the trinity rather quickly.

SOL

Jesus dosnt share the nature of God because he is God.

Isnt that Ironic. A Trinitarian hits the 1000 page mark first in the trinity thread!

[Son of Light]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 12 2008,10:25)

Quote (Son of Light @ Jan. 12 2008,10:11) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 12 2008,10:01) Quote (Son of Light @ Jan. 12 2008,09:49) Quote (Son of Light @ Jan. 12 2008,09:48) Quote (acertainchap @ Jan. 12 2008,09:43) Quote (Son of Light @ Jan. 12 2008,09:39) Only the Father has ever existed.  The Father is greater than Jesus.  Only the Father exists in unapproable Light. I agree with you that Jesus shares the nature of the Father.   But I also think we all will.  This makes the number of the Godhead rather large. So yes we will all be elohim.  But amongst us will always be the source of all.  The very head of the Godhead.  The Father of all. So you believe in the trinity doctrine, then? No. A divine family that all share the same nature or substance. BUT ONLY ONE ETERNAL FATHER AND SOURCE OF ALL. SOL Maybe you can show me a scripture that says the Yeshua “Shares” the nature of God? I would hope that you could do that.  If you can't that shoots down the trinity rather quickly. SOL Jesus dosnt share the nature of God because he is God. Isnt that Ironic. A Trinitarian hits the 1000 page mark first in the trinity thread!

Jesus doesn't “JUST” share the nature of elohim because he is elohim.

Just as in the beginning when the (plural) elohim created heaven and earth.

However, Jesus is not the Father. The Godhead is not limited to three.

ONE ETERNAL SOURCE OF ALL THE FATHER. Not 3 elohim.

We have ONE FATHER and a huge number of elohim.

elohim is a god nature.

But only one is the HEAD and first source of all.

[seek and you will find]

Yes Ironic, but what does that have to do with the trinity. You say that Jesus was God, and I agree that He was, because John 1:1 said so. But He is not the Almighty God, that is Jehovah. What prove do we have that that is true?
First Jesus Himself said that the Father is greater then I also in John. He does not speak on His own authority, whatever the Father says He will say. Also in Ephesians 4:4-6 It states that there is one Spirit, one Baptism, one Faith, one Lord( when Lord is in small letters it is always Jesus, and if the LORD is in capital letters it is the Father) one God and Father of all, who is above all and in us all.
Nut this is not going to settle it with you, because you do not have an open mind and want to learn. You just repeat and repeat the same over and over again, that is why we have 1000 pages, that would show you something, it has me.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Son of Light @ Jan. 12 2008,10:44)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 12 2008,10:25) Quote (Son of Light @ Jan. 12 2008,10:11) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 12 2008,10:01) Quote (Son of Light @ Jan. 12 2008,09:49) Quote (Son of Light @ Jan. 12 2008,09:48) Quote (acertainchap @ Jan. 12 2008,09:43) Quote (Son of Light @ Jan. 12 2008,09:39) Only the Father has ever existed.  The Father is greater than Jesus.  Only the Father exists in unapproable Light.

I agree with you that Jesus shares the nature of the Father.

But I also think we all will.  This makes the number of the Godhead rather large.

So yes we will all be elohim.  But amongst us will always be the source of all.  The very head of the Godhead.  The Father of all.

So you believe in the trinity doctrine, then?

No.

A divine family that all share the same nature or substance.

BUT ONLY ONE ETERNAL FATHER AND SOURCE OF ALL.

SOL

Maybe you can show me a scripture that says the Yeshua “Shares” the nature of God?

I would hope that you could do that.  If you can’t that shoots down the trinity rather quickly.

SOL

Jesus dosnt share the nature of God because he is God.

Isnt that Ironic. A Trinitarian hits the 1000 page mark first in the trinity thread!

Jesus doesn’t “JUST” share the nature of elohim because he is elohim.

Just as in the beginning when the (plural) elohim created heaven and earth.

However, Jesus is not the Father.  The Godhead is not limited to three.

ONE ETERNAL SOURCE OF ALL THE FATHER. Not 3 elohim.

We have ONE FATHER and a huge number of elohim.

elohim is a god nature.

But only one is the HEAD and first source of all.

SOL

You continue to speak your Polytheistic theology without addressing my questions!

What attributes does the Father have that the Son dosnt?

In what way is Jesus different in nature than God?

So will we dwell in one another?

Will we fill all things?

Will we uphold all things by the word of our power?

Will all things be through us and for us?

Will we sit in The throne with the Father and the Son being worshipped and praised with the Spirit proceeding from us (not through us) to all of creation?

Rev 22:1
And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, [was there] the tree of life, which bare twelve [manner of] fruits, [and] yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree [were] for the healing of the nations.
3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and *his servants shall serve him*:

I await your answer!

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (seek and you will find @ Jan. 12 2008,10:53)

Yes Ironic, but what does that have to do with the trinity. You say that Jesus was God, and I agree that He was, because John 1:1 said so. But He is not the Almighty God, that is Jehovah. What prove do we have that that is true? First Jesus Himself said that the Father is greater then I also in John. He does not speak on His own authority, whatever the Father says He will say. Also in Ephesians 4:4-6 It states that there is one Spirit, one Baptism, one Faith, one Lord( when Lord is in small letters it is always Jesus, and if the LORD is in capital letters it is the Father) one God and Father of all, who is above all and in us all. Nut this is not going to settle it with you, because you do not have an open mind and want to learn. You just repeat and repeat the same over and over again, that is why we have 1000 pages, that would show you something, it has me.

SAYWF

Quote

You say that Jesus was God, and I agree that He was, because John 1:1 said so.

Good. Then what is the problem.

Quote

But He is not the Almighty God, that is Jehovah.

Are you sure about that?

Now if you believe that the Father and Yeshua are not one as God then you must believe in more than one God.

Sriptures do not teach such.

1 Jn 5:20
And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

[Not3in1]

Quote (seek and you will find @ Jan. 12 2008,10:53)

You just repeat and repeat the same over and over again

Actually WJ has quite a few good things to say. He has taught me (a non-trinitarian) quite a lot.

Stick around Seek…..you’re a newbie. You’ll get to know the character’s around here. But WJ is a good man and a good brother in the LORD.

Hey – WJ – congrat’s on making the 1000 page! Drum-roll, please.

Seek, are you a JW?

[NickHassan]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 12 2008,11:03)

Quote (seek and you will find @ Jan. 12 2008,10:53) Yes Ironic, but what does that have to do with the trinity. You say that Jesus was God, and I agree that He was, because John 1:1 said so. But He is not the Almighty God, that is Jehovah. What prove do we have that that is true? First Jesus Himself said that the Father is greater then I also in John. He does not speak on His own authority, whatever the Father says He will say. Also in Ephesians 4:4-6 It states that there is one Spirit, one Baptism, one Faith, one Lord( when Lord is in small letters it is always Jesus, and if the LORD is in capital letters it is the Father) one God and Father of all, who is above all and in us all. Nut this is not going to settle it with you, because you do not have an open mind and want to learn. You just repeat and repeat the same over and over again, that is why we have 1000 pages, that would show you something, it has me. SAYWF Quote You say that Jesus was God, and I agree that He was, because John 1:1 said so. Good. Then what is the problem. Quote But He is not the Almighty God, that is Jehovah. Are you sure about that? Now if you believe that the Father and Yeshua are not one as God then you must believe in more than one God. Sriptures do not teach such. 1 Jn 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

HiWJ,
Doi you interpret this verse to say the father is not the true God?
Nothing would surprise me.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 12 2008,11:19)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 12 2008,11:03) Quote (seek and you will find @ Jan. 12 2008,10:53) Yes Ironic, but what does that have to do with the trinity. You say that Jesus was God, and I agree that He was, because John 1:1 said so. But He is not the Almighty God, that is Jehovah. What prove do we have that that is true? First Jesus Himself said that the Father is greater then I also in John. He does not speak on His own authority, whatever the Father says He will say. Also in Ephesians 4:4-6 It states that there is one Spirit, one Baptism, one Faith, one Lord( when Lord is in small letters it is always Jesus, and if the LORD is in capital letters it is the Father) one God and Father of all, who is above all and in us all. Nut this is not going to settle it with you, because you do not have an open mind and want to learn. You just repeat and repeat the same over and over again, that is why we have 1000 pages, that would show you something, it has me. SAYWF Quote You say that Jesus was God, and I agree that He was, because John 1:1 said so. Good. Then what is the problem. Quote But He is not the Almighty God, that is Jehovah. Are you sure about that? Now if you believe that the Father and Yeshua are not one as God then you must believe in more than one God. Sriptures do not teach such. 1 Jn 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life. HiWJ, Doi you interpret this verse to say the father is not the true God? Nothing would surprise me.

NH

1 Jn 5:20
And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

sn The pronoun This one (οὗτος, Joutos) refers to a person, but it is far from clear whether it should be understood as a reference (1) to God the Father or (2) to Jesus Christ. R. E. Brown (Epistles of John [AB], 625) comments, “I John, which began with an example of stunning grammatical obscurity in the prologue, continues to the end to offer us examples of unclear grammar.” The nearest previous antecedent is Jesus Christ, immediately preceding, but on some occasions when this has been true the pronoun still refers to God (see 1 John 2:3). The first predicate which follows This one in 5:20, the true God, is a description of God the Father used by Jesus in John 17:3, and was used in the preceding clause of the present verse to refer to God the Father (him who is true). Yet the second predicate of This one in 5:20, eternal life, appears to refer to Jesus, because although the Father possesses “life” (John 5:26, 6:57) just as Jesus does (John 1:4, 6:57, 1 John 5:11), “life” is never predicated of the Father elsewhere, while it is predicated of Jesus in John 11:25 and 14:6 (a self-predication by Jesus). If This one in 5:20 is understood as referring to Jesus, it forms an inclusion with the prologue, which introduced the reader to “the eternal life which was with the Father and was manifested to us.” Thus it appears best to understand the pronoun This one in 5:20 as a reference to Jesus Christ. The christological affirmation which results is striking, but certainly not beyond the capabilities of the author (see John 1:1 and 20:28): This One [Jesus Christ] is the true God and eternal life.

Forgot to give the source!

http://www.bible.org/netbible/index.htm

[NickHassan]

Hi WJ,
So WJ the Father is not the true God??
Interesting.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Not3in1 @ Jan. 12 2008,11:16)

Quote (seek and you will find @ Jan. 12 2008,10:53) You just repeat and repeat the same over and over again Actually WJ has quite a few good things to say.  He has taught me (a non-trinitarian) quite a lot. Stick around Seek…..you’re a newbie.  You’ll get to know the character’s around here.  But WJ is a good man and a good brother in the LORD. Hey – WJ – congrat’s on making the 1000 page!  Drum-roll, please.   Seek, are you a JW?

not3

Thanks!

I hope you are well. Good too see you.

Dont let your faith in Jesus waver.

Love in Christ Keith

[Proclaimer]

NOTE: This is a continuation of the topic Trinity (Part 1).

[acertainchap]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 12 2008,11:27)

Hi WJ, So WJ the Father is not the true God?? Interesting.

So you don't notice the Father as the true everlasting, God?

Ephesians 1:17

17 I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the Spirit.

The Father is God. He pours out his Spirit upon mankind.

The pouring out of the Spirit

Acts 2:17

17 ” 'In the last days, God says,
     I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
  Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
     your young men will see visions,
     your old men will dream dreams.

Blessings

[acertainchap]

Quote (seek and you will find @ Jan. 12 2008,11:45)

Mandy  I am not a newbie. And I do not and ever will believe again in the trinity. I have explained before how I see Jesus as God. He is the Son of God the firstborn of all creation. I see God as a Family name. In Corinth. 15 when Jesus will give the Kingdom back to the Father we are also Gods. We are the Family of God, and I am proud to be a member of that Family. It is sad that nobody recognized me. I thought maybe my bad English would give me away, but that did not either. Any guesses who I am?

Please do not think nobody recognized you. You say that nobody recognized you. I recognized you if that counts for something.

[seek and you will find]

Quote (t8 @ Jan. 13 2008,10:04)

Quote (seek and you will find @ Jan. 12 2008,11:45) Mandy  I am not a newbie. And I do not and ever will believe again in the trinity. I have explained before how I see Jesus as God. He is the Son of God the firstborn of all creation. I see God as a Family name. In Corinth. 15 when Jesus will give the Kingdom back to the Father we are also Gods. We are the Family of God, and I am proud to be a member of that Family. It is sad that nobody recognized me. I thought maybe my bad English would give me away, but that did not either. Any guesses who I am? I give up. Who?

You give up.

Peace and Love Mrs.IM4Truth

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