The Trinity Doctrine

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 11 2008,11:49)

Hi WJ, Jesus is a man.

Again, Jesus as a man is the “Image of the invisible God”.

[NickHassan]

Hi WJ,
You seemed to have missed the questions
So as the images of God how do men differ from God?

[Worshipping Jesus]

NH

Does this verse fit you?

Heb 1:3
And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature (Substance, Essence), and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

Jesus the Word/God in the flesh is “The image of the invisible God”.

Remember, “Monogenes”, Unique.

[NickHassan]

Hi WJ,
It was you who reminded us that as a man Jesus was in the image of God.
So is every man but none of us claim to be God.
Funnily enough neither did he.

He was a man and scripture goes to great pains to say this.
His origins with God in the beginning are another matter

[martian]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 11 2008,11:48)

Quote (martian @ Jan. 11 2008,10:54) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 11 2008,10:25) Quote (martian @ Jan. 11 2008,09:59) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 11 2008,08:38) I hear all the chatter. But know one has scripturally addressed my post.

Please dont use man made logic without scripture.

No one has given me an answer to my questions?

The main one being…

Is there anything about the nature of Jesus that is not the same as the Father?

Tell me how if Jesus is the exact representation of his person, substance, essence, how he is different.

If you claim he is, then Heb 1:3 is not true. Because if he is different in nature then he cant be the “exact representation of his person, substance, essence”!

Then think about the ways the Father is unlike us and always will be as God.

Of course you  ignore the definition of “representation”.
Even after I posted it.

Representation
the instrument used for engraving or carving
the mark stamped upon that instrument or wrought out on it
a mark or figure burned in (Lev. 13:
or stamped on, an impression
the exact expression (the image) of any person or thing, marked likeness, precise reproduction in every respect, i.e facsimile

So are you going to sit there and tell me that an image of a thing is the same as the original? A reproduction is the same as the original? A facsimile is the same as the original. A marked likeness? An exact expression? An impression? Are any of thee the same as the original.

If you truly believe these things are the same as the original, I would like to sell you some reproduction antiques at the same price as the originals.
GET A CLUE! The nonsense chatter is still coming from you!

martian

You say…

Quote

So are you going to sit there and tell me that an image of a thing is the same as the original? A reproduction is the same as the original? A facsimile is the same as the original. A marked likeness? An exact expression? An impression? Are any of thee the same as the original.

We are not just talking about an image here. We are talking about the very essence and substance of what makes God, God.

Look at the definition…

precise reproduction in every respect,

If Jesus is not like the Father in every way then he could not be the exact expression of the Father.

In fact he could not be the “Image of the invisible God”, God in the flesh revealing himself to mankind. Col 1:15

You are getting the identity of the Father and the Son mixed up with their nature.

You are 100% human in substance as your Father.

So the chatter of human logic trying to bring Jesus down to a mere man goes on.

You didnt answer any of my questions!

How is Jesus any different than the Father in nature?

First define nature and then show me one scripture where it says Christ is the same nature as YHWH.

martian

You say…

Quote

First define nature and then show me one scripture where it says Christ is the same nature as YHWH.

Nature…
1 a: the inherent character or basic constitution of a person or thing : essence

Heb 1:3
And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature (Substance, Essence), and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

I have answered your question. Stop evading mine.

How is Jesus any different than the Father in nature?

Your anwser is simple —
Jesus is not deity. He poses no deity in and of himself. The deity that is in Jesus is the Father. Just like us. this does not change his nature from being fully man any more then it does ours. God is by nature fully God and in no part human. He cannot become human and never did.

And you still have not dealt with the term “Representation” Representation does not indicate duplicate or even same essence or substance.
I can represent a company and not be that company. A person can represent the president and not be the president.

Of course here is your situational ethics at their finest. Your definition is only one of the possible definitions. You chose that one to lend credence to your theories.
Here is the full definition –
a setting or placing under
thing put under, substructure, foundation
that which has foundation, is firm
that which has actual existence
a substance, real being
the substantial quality, nature, of a person or thing
the steadfastness of mind, firmness, courage, resolution
confidence, firm trust, assurance

So how do we determine which one is right. Do we just lay claim to one or do we see other places where that word is used and judge by them. You know, WJ the Hermaneutics you claim to follow?

The word is used 5 times in scripture and as a matter of fact all written by the same author, Paul.
Co 9:4 –
otherwise if any Macedonians come with me and find you unprepared, we–not to speak of you–will be put to shame by this confidence. (Hupostasis) Substance?

2Co 11:17 –
WhatI am saying, I am not saying as the Lord would, but as in foolishness, in this confidence (Hupostasis) of boasting.
Substance?

Heb 3:14 –
For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance (Hupostasis) firm until the end,
Substance?

Heb 11:1 –
Now faith is the assurance (Hupostasis) of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.
Substance?

Heb 1:3 –
And He is the radiance of Hi
s glory and the exact representation of His nature, (Hupostasis) and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
Substance?

Four times Paul uses the word to indicate the steadfastness of mind, firmness, courage, resolution, confidence, firm trust, assurance and now because of your theory you claim the fifth time Paul uses it, it must mean something else? Letting your doctrine interpret scripture again?
Even if you were right you still cannot get around the representation aspect of the word. No matter how exactly you duplicate something you cannot claim it is the original.

[TimothyVI]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 11 2008,09:51)

Quote (TimothyVI @ Jan. 11 2008,09:35) Hi WorshipppingJesus,

You said. “He then went to the center of the earth and preached to the spirits in prison, hades…

1 Peter 3:18
For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.”

I just wondered where you got center of the earth there. My pastor says that all of the time as well.

Tim

Tim

Matt 12:40
For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

The Greek word for heart is…’kardia’ which means;

of the middle or central or inmost part of anything, even though inanimate

This also ties in with this scripture…

Eph 4:8
Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

Tim notice that when Yeshua went to hades and preached leading those that were captive, he then ascended far above all heavens *that he might fill all things*

No mere man could fill all things.

Thank you WJ.

Tim

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (TimothyVI @ Jan. 12 2008,03:35)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 11 2008,09:51) Quote (TimothyVI @ Jan. 11 2008,09:35) Hi WorshipppingJesus,

You said. “He then went to the center of the earth and preached to the spirits in prison, hades…

1 Peter 3:18
For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.”

I just wondered where you got center of the earth there. My pastor says that all of the time as well.

Tim

Tim

Matt 12:40
For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

The Greek word for heart is…’kardia’ which means;

of the middle or central or inmost part of anything, even though inanimate

This also ties in with this scripture…

Eph 4:8
Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

Tim notice that when Yeshua went to hades and preached leading those that were captive, he then ascended far above all heavens *that he might fill all things*

No mere man could fill all things.

Thank you WJ.

Tim

Tim

You are welcome and very kind!

Blessings!

[NickHassan]

Hi WJ,
Compare Eph 1
2Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

6To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

7In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

8Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;

9Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

10That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

11In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

12That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

The work of filling all things in Christ is the work of God in him.
Christ has been given all authority and will restore the earthly kingdom.
When he has restored the kingdom after 1000 years it will be returned to God.

It will fulfill the prayer of Christ.
“..Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven..”

[acertainchap]

John 6:38, “For I came down from heaven not to do my own will, but the will of Him that sent me.”

We see Jesus’ non-identity with the Godhead, as he states that he is an agent of the Father whom sent him.

[seek and you will find]

Quote (acertainchap @ Jan. 12 2008,06:15)

John 6:38, “For I came down from heaven not to do my own will, but the will of Him that sent me.”

We see Jesus’ non-identity with the Godhead, as he states that he is an agent of the Father whom sent him.

acertainchap What do you mean by that we see jesus nonitentity with the Godhead, that He states that He is an agent of the Father whom sent Him.

[acertainchap]

I’m saying that he is a seperate person from the Father and that the trinity doctrine (Godhead) is false and also I’ve shown that it’s false from various verses.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Martian

You said…

Quote

Your anwser is simple —

Is it? Then why didn’t you answer my questions?

Quote

Jesus is not deity. He poses no deity in and of himself. The deity that is in Jesus is the Father. Just like us. this does not change his nature from being fully man any more then it does ours

.

Really? Can you be everywhere and dwell in millions of believers all over the world speaking to them, leading and guiding them, strengthening them, standing in their midst when they come together and pray, all at the same time?

You are just like Jesus huh?

Quote

God is by nature fully God and in no part human. He cannot become human and never did.

True the Father did not come in the flesh, the Word that was with God and is God did.

Jn 1:14, Jn 20:28, Phil 2:6-8, 1 Tim 3:16, Titus 2:13, Heb 1:8, 1 Jn 5:20

Quote

And you still have not dealt with the term “Representation” Representation does not indicate duplicate or even same essence or substance.

Yes I did here…

“We are not just talking about an image here. We are talking about the very essence and substance of what makes God, God.

Look at the definition…

precise reproduction in every respect,

If Jesus is not like the Father in every way then he could not be the exact expression of the Father.

In fact he could not be the “Image of the invisible God”, God in the flesh revealing himself to mankind. Col 1:15

You are getting the identity of the Father and the Son mixed up with their nature.

You are 100% human in substance as your Father.”
https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….st=9950

Quote

I can represent a company and not be that company. A person can represent the president and not be the president.

You and the company, poor analogy. You and the president, good analogy.

You can represent the president substantively only by claiming that you are 100% human like he is!!!

An exact representation of his substance, essence!

Yeshua is not the Father, just like you are not the president, but he is all that the Father is not only substantively, but also having all the attributes of the Father which no other created being has.

Can you tell the difference in Yeshua and the Father?.

Quote

Of course here is your situational ethics at their finest. Your definition is only one of the possible definitions. You chose that one to lend credence to your theories.

Well at least you now admit that Greek and Hebrew words do not always have the same meaning! Fantastic!

Quote

Here is the full definition – a setting or placing under thing put under, substructure, foundation that which has foundation, is firm that which has actual existence a substance, real being the substantial quality, nature, of a person or thing the steadfastness of mind, firmness, courage, resolution confidence, firm trust, assurance

So how do we determine which one is right. Do we just lay claim to one or do we see other places where that word is used and judge by them.  You know, WJ the Hermaneutics you claim to follow?

Hey, I didn’t translate the scriptures! The translators seem to all agree with the one definition of “hupostasis” for this particular verse, Heb 1:3..

KJV
Who being the brightness of [his] glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
King James Version 1611, 1769

NKJV – Hbr 1:3 – who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
New King James Version © 1982 Thomas Nelson

NLT – Hbr 1:3 – The Son reflects God’s own glory, and everything about him represents God exactly. He sustains the universe by the mighty power of his command. After he died to cleanse us from the stain of sin, he sat down in the place of honor at the right hand of the majestic God of heaven.
New Living Translation © 1996 Tyndale Charitable Trust

NIV – Hbr 1:3 – The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.
New International Version © 1973, 1978, 1984 International Bible Society

ESV – Hbr 1:3 – He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
The Holy Bible, English Standard Version © 2001 Crossway Bibles

NASB – Hbr 1:3 – And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
New American Standard Bible © 1995 Lockman Foundation

ASV – Hbr 1:3 – who being the effulgence of his glory, and the very image of his substance, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had made purification of sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
American Standard Version 1901 Info

Young – Hbr 1:3 – who being the brightness of the glory, and the impress of His subsistence, bearing up also the all things by the saying of his might — through himself having made a cleansing of our sins, sat down at the right hand of the greatness in the highest,
Robert Young Literal Translation 1862, 1887, 1898 Info

Webster – Hbr 1:3 – Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself made purification of our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
Noah Webster Version 1833 Info

HNV – Hbr 1:3 – His Son is the radiance of his glory, the very image of his substance, and upholding
all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself made purification for our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Quote

The word is used 5 times in scripture and as a matter of fact all written by the same author, Paul. Co 9:4 – otherwise if any Macedonians come with me and find you unprepared, we–not to speak of you–will be put to shame by this confidence. (Hupostasis) Substance?

2Co 11:17 –
WhatI am saying, I am not saying as the Lord would, but as in foolishness, in this confidence (Hupostasis) of boasting.
Substance?

Heb 3:14 –
For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance (Hupostasis) firm until the end,
Substance?

Heb 11:1 –
Now faith is the assurance (Hupostasis) of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.
Substance?

Heb 1:3 –
And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, (Hupostasis)  and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
Substance?

Four times Paul uses the word to indicate the steadfastness of mind, firmness, courage, resolution, confidence, firm trust, assurance and now because of your theory you claim the fifth time Paul uses it, it must mean something else?

Again, I didnt interpret it that way. Are you a Greek scholar?

Why do you disagree with them? What bases do you try to change the definition in Heb 1:3?

You said emphasis mine…

Quote

Of course here is your situational ethics at their finest. Your definition is only one of the possible definitions. You chose that one to lend credence to your theories.

But now you are claiming that I am miss using the word and changing the definition.

Make up your mind, can a Greek word have more than one meaning or not? I accept the translators definition, you do not. I think the translators had a perfectly good reason for not using one of the other definitions like mainly the proceeding word..

“charakter” the exact expression (the image) of any person or thing, marked likeness, precise reproduction in every respect, i.e facsimile

Quote

Letting your doctrine interpret scripture again?

Who is trying to change the meaning?
What reason do you have for not accepting the meaning?
Is it to support your theology?

Quote

Even if you were right you still cannot get around the representation aspect of the word. No matter how exactly you duplicate something you cannot claim it is the original.

Yes Yeshua is not the Father, just like you are not your human father, nevertheless you are 100% human!!!

1 Jn 5:20
And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

So how is Jesus different in nature than the Father?

Can you tell me one attribute that the Father has that Jesus does not have?

2 Cor 13:5
Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

Jn 14:23
Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Matt 28:20
Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

I hear people here all the time saying things like… “God be with you”.

What in the world do they mean?

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (acertainchap @ Jan. 12 2008,06:15)

John 6:38, “For I came down from heaven not to do my own will, but the will of Him that sent me.”

We see Jesus’ non-identity with the Godhead, as he states that he is an agent of the Father whom sent him.

chap

Is the agent different in nature than the one who sent him?

If so, how?

[Son of Light]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 12 2008,09:01)

Quote (acertainchap @ Jan. 12 2008,06:15) John 6:38, “For I came down from heaven not to do my own will, but the will of Him that sent me.”

We see Jesus’ non-identity with the Godhead, as he states that he is an agent of the Father whom sent him.

chap

Is the agent different in nature than the one who sent him?

If so, how?

Nature and Identity are two distinct things.

We are both humans. But we aren’t the same being.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Son of Light @ Jan. 12 2008,09:05)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 12 2008,09:01) Quote (acertainchap @ Jan. 12 2008,06:15) John 6:38, “For I came down from heaven not to do my own will, but the will of Him that sent me.”

We see Jesus’ non-identity with the Godhead, as he states that he is an agent of the Father whom sent him.

chap

Is the agent different in nature than the one who sent him?

If so, how?

Nature and Identity are two distinct things.

We are both humans.  But we aren’t the same being.

SOL

So goes the Henotheistic and Arian concept.

Yes, but we are talking about the substance and essence of what makes God God.

God is Spirit. Jesus is Spirit.

Unlike the nature of man, God can be everywhere all at the same time.

You try to make a distinction in the ontological nature of the Father and Jesus.

Since you do, then maybe you can show me a difference in the Father and the Son.

What attributes does the Father have that the Son dosnt?

In what way is Jesus different in nature than God?

Also you cant seperate I dentity from nature.

Can you seperate yourself from humanity?

[NickHassan]

Hi WJ,
Christ was a man.
He cannot separate himself from humanity.
Just as well as we are meant to be following him.

[Son of Light]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 12 2008,09:29)

Quote (Son of Light @ Jan. 12 2008,09:05) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 12 2008,09:01) Quote (acertainchap @ Jan. 12 2008,06:15) John 6:38, “For I came down from heaven not to do my own will, but the will of Him that sent me.”

We see Jesus’ non-identity with the Godhead, as he states that he is an agent of the Father whom sent him.

chap

Is the agent different in nature than the one who sent him?

If so, how?

Nature and Identity are two distinct things.

We are both humans.  But we aren’t the same being.

SOL

So goes the Henotheistic and Arian concept.

Yes, but we are talking about the substance and essence of what makes God God.

God is Spirit. Jesus is Spirit.

Unlike the nature of man, God can be everywhere all at the same time.

You try to make a distinction in the ontological nature of the Father and Jesus.

Since you do, then maybe you can show me a difference in the Father and the Son.

What attributes does the Father have that the Son dosnt?

In what way is Jesus different in nature than God?

Also you cant seperate I dentity from nature.

Can you seperate yourself from humanity?

Only the Father has ever existed. The Father is greater than Jesus. Only the Father exists in unapproable Light.

I agree with you that Jesus shares the nature of the Father.

But I also think we all will. This makes the number of the Godhead rather large.

So yes we will all be elohim. But amongst us will always be the source of all. The very head of the Godhead. The Father of all.

[acertainchap]

Quote (Son of Light @ Jan. 12 2008,09:39)

Only the Father has ever existed.  The Father is greater than Jesus.  Only the Father exists in unapproable Light.

I agree with you that Jesus shares the nature of the Father.

But I also think we all will.  This makes the number of the Godhead rather large.

So yes we will all be elohim.  But amongst us will always be the source of all.  The very head of the Godhead.  The Father of all.

So you believe in the trinity doctrine, then?

[Son of Light]

Quote (acertainchap @ Jan. 12 2008,09:43)

Quote (Son of Light @ Jan. 12 2008,09:39) Only the Father has ever existed.  The Father is greater than Jesus.  Only the Father exists in unapproable Light.

I agree with you that Jesus shares the nature of the Father.

But I also think we all will.  This makes the number of the Godhead rather large.

So yes we will all be elohim.  But amongst us will always be the source of all.  The very head of the Godhead.  The Father of all.

So you believe in the trinity doctrine, then?

No.

[Son of Light]

Quote (Son of Light @ Jan. 12 2008,09:48)

Quote (acertainchap @ Jan. 12 2008,09:43) Quote (Son of Light @ Jan. 12 2008,09:39) Only the Father has ever existed.  The Father is greater than Jesus.  Only the Father exists in unapproable Light.

I agree with you that Jesus shares the nature of the Father.

But I also think we all will.  This makes the number of the Godhead rather large.

So yes we will all be elohim.  But amongst us will always be the source of all.  The very head of the Godhead.  The Father of all.

So you believe in the trinity doctrine, then?

No.

A divine family that all share the same nature or substance.

BUT ONLY ONE ETERNAL FATHER AND SOURCE OF ALL.

[Author]

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