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Quote (acertainchap @ Jan. 13 2008,11:04) Quote (seek and you will find @ Jan. 12 2008,11:45) Mandy I am not a newbie. And I do not and ever will believe again in the trinity. I have explained before how I see Jesus as God. He is the Son of God the firstborn of all creation. I see God as a Family name. In Corinth. 15 when Jesus will give the Kingdom back to the Father we are also Gods. We are the Family of God, and I am proud to be a member of that Family. It is sad that nobody recognized me.
I thought maybe my bad English would give me away, but that did not either. Any guesses who I am?
Please do not think nobody recognized you. You say that nobody recognized you. I recognized you if that counts for something.
Chap You did, that surprised me, you almost sound angry. Are you angry with me, because I played around?Peace and Love MrsIM4Truth
Grandma?Another verse…
John 17:3
3 Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.
John 5:18
18 Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.
*They are equal but two seperate personages.
Quote (acertainchap @ Jan. 14 2008,09:11) John 5:18 18 Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.
*They are equal but two seperate personages.
The pharasees thought he made himself equal with God. Jesus never made such a claim. Jesus repeatedly said the Father was greater then He. The pharasees accusations are not something to base doctrine on.Here are verses…
Ephesians 1:18-23
18 I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, 19 and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, 20 which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, 21 far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. 22 And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, 23 which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.
Yes martian I realized that you are right, the Father is greater than He; but Jesus sits at the Father's right hand in the heavenly realms.
Quote (acertainchap @ Jan. 14 2008,09:54) Yes martian I realized that you are right, the Father is greater than He; but Jesus sits at the Father's right hand in the heavenly realms.
Exactly — Jesus has been temporarily givenb all power in heaven and
Earth an sits in the highest position of power other then Gid.Yeah like Joseph and the Pharaoh.
Joseph had all authority in that kingdom, but not over the Pharaoh himself.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 12 2008,05:55) [quote=Son of Light,Jan. 12 2008,10:44]SOL
You continue to speak your Polytheistic theology without addressing my questions!What attributes does the Father have that the Son dosnt?
In what way is Jesus different in nature than God?
So will we dwell in one another?
Will we fill all things?
Will we uphold all things by the word of our power?
Will all things be through us and for us?
Will we sit in The throne with the Father and the Son being worshipped and praised with the Spirit proceeding from us (not through us) to all of creation?
Rev 22:1
And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, [was there] the tree of life, which bare twelve [manner of] fruits, [and] yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree [were] for the healing of the nations.
3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and *his servants shall serve him*:I await your answer!
:O
There are so many viewpoints being expressed that it is difficult to keep up with who believes what.Regardless, in answer to the question: What attributes does the Father have that the son doesn't?
(1) Jesus does not share the attribute of being the God and Father of Jesus with his God and Father.
http://tinyurl.com/3cvbuc(2) Jesus does not share the attribute of being the only Most High with his God and Father. — John 10:29.
http://tinyurl.com/yjnj7v(3) Jesus does not share the attribute of being uncreated, having no beginning, being unbegotten, with his God and Father. — Colossians 1:15.
(4) Jesus does not share the attribute of being the Creator with his God and Father. — Mark 10:16; 13:19
(5) Jesus does not share the attribute of being only true God who sent Jesus. — John 17:1,3.
(6) Jesus does not share the attribute of being “God of gods” with his God and Father.
http://tinyurl.com/2gbjxj(7) Jesus does not share the attribute of being “God Almighty” with his God and Father.
http://tinyurl.com/2b8qf5There could be more; these seven stand out in my mind.
Additionally, Jesus' God and Father is never spoken of as being the image of God.
In service of Jesus and his God,
RonaldQuote (ronday888 @ Jan. 14 2008,13:57) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 12 2008,05:55) [quote=Son of Light,Jan. 12 2008,10:44]SOL
You continue to speak your Polytheistic theology without addressing my questions!What attributes does the Father have that the Son dosnt?
In what way is Jesus different in nature than God?
So will we dwell in one another?
Will we fill all things?
Will we uphold all things by the word of our power?
Will all things be through us and for us?
Will we sit in The throne with the Father and the Son being worshipped and praised with the Spirit proceeding from us (not through us) to all of creation?
Rev 22:1
And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, [was there] the tree of life, which bare twelve [manner of] fruits, [and] yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree [were] for the healing of the nations.
3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and *his servants shall serve him*:I await your answer!
There are so many viewpoints being expressed that it is difficult to keep up with who believes what.Regardless, in answer to the question: What attributes does the Father have that the son doesn't?
(1) Jesus does not share the attribute of being the God and Father of Jesus with his God and Father.
http://tinyurl.com/3cvbuc(2) Jesus does not share the attribute of being the only Most High with his God and Father. — John 10:29.
http://tinyurl.com/yjnj7v(3) Jesus does not share the attribute of being uncreated, having no beginning, being unbegotten, with his God and Father. — Colossians 1:15.
(4) Jesus does not share the attribute of being the Creator with his God and Father. — Mark 10:16; 13:19
(5) Jesus does not share the attribute of being only true God who sent Jesus. — John 17:1,3.
(6) Jesus does not share the attribute of being “God of gods” with his God and Father.
http://tinyurl.com/2gbjxj(7) Jesus does not share the attribute of being “God Almighty” with his God and Father.
http://tinyurl.com/2b8qf5There could be more; these seven stand out in my mind.
Additionally, Jesus' God and Father is never spoken of as being the image of God.
In service of Jesus and his God,
Ronald
RonTry again.
Those are not attributes of God.
And none of them deal with the nature of the Father and Yeshua and the Holy Spirit!
The things you quote are with the premise that Jesus is not deity, and in no way prove he is not.
None of the things you mention deal with
Jn 1:14, Jn 20:28, Phil 2:6-8, 1 Tim 3:16, Titus 2:13, Heb 1:8, 1 Jn 5:20And they sure dont answer these questions…
So will we dwell in one another?
Will we fill all things?
Will we uphold all things by the word of our power?
Will all things be through us and for us?
Will we sit in The throne with the Father and the Son being worshipped and praised with the Spirit proceeding from us (not through us) to all of creation?
Rev 22:1
And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, [was there] the tree of life, which bare twelve [manner of] fruits, [and] yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree [were] for the healing of the nations.
3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and *his servants shall serve him*:Only God has these attributes!
Thats just to start. I am a little tired tonight but will address you post point by point later.
Welcome and blessings!
Quote (ronday888 @ Jan. 14 2008,13:57) (1) Jesus does not share the attribute of being the God and Father of Jesus with his God and Father.
http://tinyurl.com/3cvbuc
Jesus is not the Father. Well yes. Modalists take note.Quote (2) Jesus does not share the attribute of being the only Most High with his God and Father. — John 10:29.
http://tinyurl.com/yjnj7v
Where is the verse that states the Father alone is the Most High God? Where is the verse that states Jesus isn't?Quote (3) Jesus does not share the attribute of being uncreated, having no beginning, being unbegotten, with his God and Father. — Colossians 1:15.
The concept of firstborn to the jewish mind relates to inheritance and preeminance/priority of position. Not reproduction. To use Col 1:15 to demonstrate a beginning to Yeshua's life is to misshandle the text.Quote (4) Jesus does not share the attribute of being the Creator with his God and Father. — Mark 10:16; 13:19
Incorrect – John 1:3, 1 Cor 8:5, Col 1:16, Heb 1:2, Heb 1:10.Quote (5) Jesus does not share the attribute of being only true God who sent Jesus. — John 17:1,3.
John 17:3 does not explicitly say Yeshua is not true God.Quote (6) Jesus does not share the attribute of being “God of gods” with his God and Father.
http://tinyurl.com/2gbjxj
Where is the verse that says the Father of Yeshua is the God of gods, to the exclusion of Yeshua?Quote (7) Jesus does not share the attribute of being “God Almighty” with his God and Father.
http://tinyurl.com/2b8qf5
Which verse proves this?Quote In service of Jesus and his God,
Ronald
You do a disservice to Yeshua when you misrepresent Him from scripture Ronald.Hi Is 1.18,
You ask
“
Where is the verse that states the Father alone is the Most High God? Where is the verse that states Jesus isn't?”Lots of things are not recorded in scripture.
Moses is not said to be not God
and
neither is Peter said to be not Paul.
But it does not need to be said that a son is not his own father.Quote (Is 1:18 @ Jan. 14 2008,18:04) Quote (ronday888 @ Jan. 14 2008,13:57) (1) Jesus does not share the attribute of being the God and Father of Jesus with his God and Father.
http://tinyurl.com/3cvbuc
Jesus is not the Father. Well yes. Modalists take note.Quote (2) Jesus does not share the attribute of being the only Most High with his God and Father. — John 10:29.
http://tinyurl.com/yjnj7v
Where is the verse that states the Father alone is the Most High God? Where is the verse that states Jesus isn't?Quote (3) Jesus does not share the attribute of being uncreated, having no beginning, being unbegotten, with his God and Father. — Colossians 1:15.
The concept of firstborn to the jewish mind relates to inheritance and preeminance/priority of position. Not reproduction. To use Col 1:15 to demonstrate a beginning to Yeshua's life is to misshandle the text.Quote (4) Jesus does not share the attribute of being the Creator with his God and Father. — Mark 10:16; 13:19
Incorrect – John 1:3, 1 Cor 8:5, Col 1:16, Heb 1:2, Heb 1:10.Quote (5) Jesus does not share the attribute of being only true God who sent Jesus. — John 17:1,3.
John 17:3 does not explicitly say Yeshua is not true God.Quote (6) Jesus does not share the attribute of being “God of gods” with his God and Father.
http://tinyurl.com/2gbjxj
Where is the verse that says the Father of Yeshua is the God of gods, to the exclusion of Yeshua?Quote (7) Jesus does not share the attribute of being “God Almighty” with his God and Father.
http://tinyurl.com/2b8qf5
Which verse proves this?Quote In service of Jesus and his God,
Ronald
You do a disservice to Yeshua when you misrepresent Him from scripture Ronald.
It is not our desire to use non existant scriptires to prove doctrine. Using amgigous scriptures and non scriptural terms is the realm of the Trinitarian.Quote (Is 1:18 @ Jan. 14 2008,18:04) Where is the verse that states the Father alone is the Most High God? Where is the verse that states Jesus isn't?
Here is a verse…John 20:17
17 Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.' “
History tells us what early Christians believed Jesus to be in relationship to the Father. The earliest records only give us three options. No evidence is found for another view until at least 200 years later. Then we begin to see theology at work as other models begin to emerge or existing models begin to evolve.
Option 1: (Firstborn, proto-trinity model)
They said he was an emanation, the first spirit born of God. They believed the Father was actually Father/Mother and did not have an actual gender and God begot him in the descent past.
Option 2: (docetic model)
They believed he was man. Who was anointed at baptism and the first spirit descended into him and basically possessed him. Two beings in one body. One the human Jesus and the other the christos spirit.
Option 3: (human model)
They believed he was man. Some say virgin born and some the son of Joseph. The messiah and a prophet who was completely human but anointed with power from God.
The 1st option is the option that fits closest to what we see the New Testament to be saying. The Trinity (as believed today) does not fit the historic evidence or the scriptures as nicely as the above option number 1, the proto-trinitarian view.
This is also the view held within the essene community of the Messiah. Which Jesus was an essene Messiah. The Pharisee expectation was a warrior the essenes expectation was a prophet of peace and healing.
This view is also the view found in the book of enoch which was an very important essene text and is even quoted directly in Jude vs. 14.
The evidence is very strong. Research it.
Quote (Is 1:18 @ Jan. 14 2008,18:04) Quote (ronday888 @ Jan. 14 2008,13:57) (1) Jesus does not share the attribute of being the God and Father of Jesus with his God and Father.
http://tinyurl.com/3cvbuc
Jesus is not the Father. Well yes. Modalists take note.Quote (2) Jesus does not share the attribute of being the only Most High with his God and Father. — John 10:29.
http://tinyurl.com/yjnj7v
Where is the verse that states the Father alone is the Most High God? Where is the verse that states Jesus isn't?Quote (3) Jesus does not share the attribute of being uncreated, having no beginning, being unbegotten, with his God and Father. — Colossians 1:15.
The concept of firstborn to the jewish mind relates to inheritance and preeminance/priority of position. Not reproduction. To use Col 1:15 to demonstrate a beginning to Yeshua's life is to misshandle the text.Quote (4) Jesus does not share the attribute of being the Creator with his God and Father. — Mark 10:16; 13:19
Incorrect – John 1:3, 1 Cor 8:5, Col 1:16, Heb 1:2, Heb 1:10.Quote (5) Jesus does not share the attribute of being only true God who sent Jesus. — John 17:1,3.
John 17:3 does not explicitly say Yeshua is not true God.Quote (6) Jesus does not share the attribute of being “God of gods” with his God and Father.
http://tinyurl.com/2gbjxj
Where is the verse that says the Father of Yeshua is the God of gods, to the exclusion of Yeshua?Quote (7) Jesus does not share the attribute of being “God Almighty” with his God and Father.
http://tinyurl.com/2b8qf5
Which verse proves this?Quote In service of Jesus and his God,
Ronald
You do a disservice to Yeshua when you misrepresent Him from scripture Ronald.
Show me one scripture that says that my dauchound is not God manefested to this world.Quote (Is 1:18 @ Jan. 14 2008,13:04) [/quote]
[quote=Is 1:18,Jan. 14 2008,18:04]
Jesus is not the Father. Well yes. Modalists take note.In the scriptures, Jesus is neither his Father nor is Jesus his God. Jesus does indeed differentiate himself from the only true God who sent him. — John 17:1,3.
All through the scriptures, Jesus is differentiated from the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
God, by means of his holy spirit, reveals through the scriptures that Yahweh (Jehovah) is the only true God, the God and Father of the Lord Jesus. Jesus has One who is the Supreme Being over him; Jesus is not his Supreme Being whom he worships, prays to, and who sent him, and whose will he carried out in willful obedience. — Deuteronomy 18:15-19; Matthew 4:4 (Deuteronomy 8:3; Luke 4:4); Matthew 4:7 (Deuteronomy 6:16); Matthew 4:10 (Exodus 20:3-5; 34:14; Deuteronomy 6:13,14; 10:20; Luke 4:8); Matthew 22:29-40; Matthew 26:42; Matthew 27:46; Mark 10:6 (Genesis 1:27; Genesis 2:7,20-23); Mark 14:36; 15:34; Luke 22:42; John 4:3; 5:30; 6:38; 17:1,3; 20:17; Romans 15:6; 2 Corinthians 1:3; 11:31; Ephesians 1:3,17; Hebrews 1:9; 10:7; 1 Peter 1:3; Revelation 2:7; 3:2,12.
God, by means of his holy spirit, reveals through the scriptures that Jesus was sent by Yahweh, speaks for Yahweh, represents Yahweh, and was raised and glorified by the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Jesus never claimed to be, nor do the scriptures present Jesus as, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, whom Jesus represents and speaks for. — Deuteronomy 18:15-19; Matthew 22:32; 23:39; Mark 11:9,10; 12:26; Luke 13:35; 20:37; John 3:2,17,32-35; 4:34; 5:19,30,36,43; 6:57; 7:16,28; 8:26,28,38; 10:25; 12:49,50; 14:10; 15:15; 17:8,26; 20:17; Acts 2:22,34-36; 3:13,22; 5:30; Romans 15:6; 2 Corinthians 1:3; 8:6; 11:31; Colossians 1:3,15; 2:9-12; Hebrews 1:1-3; Revelation 1:1.
God, by means of his holy spirit, reveals through the scriptures that Jesus is anointed [made christ, the anointed one] by Yahweh, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Jesus is not Yahweh who thus anoints him. — Psalm 2:2; 45:7; Isaiah 61:1; Acts 2:36; 4:27; 10:38.
God, by means of his holy spirit, reveals through the scriptures that Jesus is son of the only Most High, Yahweh. Jesus is never spoken of as the “Most High”; he is not the only Most High Yahweh of whom he is the son. — Genesis 14:22; Psalm 7:17; 83:18; 92:1; Luke 1:32; John 13:16.
The fact is, however, that there is not any proof at all in the scriptures of a God existing as three co-equal, co-eternal, co-substantial persons. You will not find one scripture about such a God. The idea has to added to and read into all the scriptures that are given to support such an idea. The conclusion is that the holy spirit reveals that Jesus is not Yahweh who has made Jesus to sit at the right hand of Yahweh. — Psalm 110:1; Matthew 22:41-46; Mark 12:35-40; Luke 20:39-47; Acts 2:34; Ephesians 1:20-22; Hebrews 1:3,13; 10:12,13; 12:2; 1 Peter 3:22.
I will post more later, Yahweh willing.
In service of Jesus and his God,
RonaldQuote (Is 1:18 @ Jan. 14 2008,13:04) Where is the verse that states the Father alone is the Most High God? Where is the verse that states Jesus isn't? The question asked seems to assume that Jesus is the Most High, and then put the onus upon anyone who disagrees with the assumption. The real burden of proof lies with the one making the assertion; the default reasoning is the the son of the Most High is not the Most High of whom he is the son.
He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Most High. — Luke 1:32, World English Bible translation.
The real question should be: Where is the verse that states that the son of the Most High is the Most High of whom he is the son?
In service of Jesus and his God,
RonaldAgreed, trinity doctrine is false.
More proof…
John 20:31
31 But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.
John 11:41-43
41 So they took away the stone. Then Jesus looked up and said, “Father, I thank you that you have heard me. 42 I knew that you always hear me, but I said this for the benefit of the people standing here, that they may believe that you sent me.”
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