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Quote (t8 @ Jan. 02 2008,19:30) Hi WJ. I am going to pay you a compliment.
Are you ready?
OK. You are very determined and consistent.
Now for the bad news. You are batting for the wrong team.
That is not to say that you are not a child of God. That is not for me to judge. But you are doing a favour for the Kingdom of Darkness by continuing to promote works that were not probogated by God. Namely the Trinity Doctrine that has led many a good believer astray into untruth.
Our lives are short WJ, wouldn't it be wonderful to hear “well done my good and faithful servant” when your life is through?
Sure it would. But I can assure you that you must be serving the Truth and truth to be considered a worthy servant. If you are promoting the works of the enemy, then you are giving the wrong side a helping hand.
Consider what I am saying. Why don't you just teach that which is written and then it will be a win win situation. A win for you and a win for those who read here.
t8I realize I am not on your team. But from the looks of things on this site there is a lot who are not on “Your Team”. They are just unbelievers in the God that I believe in and serve.
You never seem to do much in calling them out or patronizing them when their doctrine borders heresy.
Its seems your mission is just to go after Trinitarianism.
Most of your writtings is about that you know.
What would you have me to do t8?
Repent and serve “a god” named Jesus?
You patronize me with no scriptural proof that what I am teaching is wrong!
You presume that you alone has “The Truth”!
Hi WJ.
My mission isn't to just go after Trinitarianism, but it is to serve the truth, even if it makes me unpopular or I have to lose my life in the process.
For me, truth is paramount. I know that love is the greatest and that is something I try to pursue above all, but to love the truth is still love is it not?
Man has pretty much fallen for the devices of the Devil, WJ.
So why would it not be wise to question a doctrine that is not taught in the NT?
And to say that it is foundational is just outright reckless.
I hope one day that you will love the truth more than the traditions of men.
I truly hope that for you.
I can't believe in the doctrine of trinity because I do not see it in scriptures, and it is too confusing.
I think that if it were true then God would have simply said something like this. know this my people, I and the Holy spirit and Jesus are one.
Of course He did not say anything like this.I must admit though, if anyone could have convinced me that the trinity was
true, WorshippingJesus could have.Tim
One Spirit, Three persons, one God.
The “One Spirit” is of the “Three persons” so why is the one Spirit mentioned? If the one Spirit is a separate Spirit than of the three persons then that would make four.
OR is it
One Spirit, One Person, One Person , One person equals one God? Again that would make four. OR is it God=one Spirit, and three Persons? NO! Still four.
Which of the ONE person is the Spirit?
Joh 14:26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.
God's Spirit is sent THROUGH Jesus Because it is by HIS Sacrifice that we are justified and can receive God's Spirit.
Act 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of My Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Luk 11:13 If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will the heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!”
Luk 10:21 In that same hour he rejoiced in the Holy Spirit and said, “I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children; yes, Father, for such was your gracious will.
Luk 12:12 for the Holy Spirit will teach you in that very hour what you ought to say.”
SO the Holy Spirit IS God's Spirit.
The whole question and answer is IF GOD'S SPIRIT IS A SEPARATE PERSON? My Spirit, Holy Spirit, God's Spirit.
IF GOD'S SPIRIT IS A “DIFFERENT” Person then YES there is a trinity. IS the Holy Spirit~God's Spirit~ another son, a different person as JESUS the SON?
The Holy Spirit is God's Spirit of which Jesus and we His brethren are a part of.
Rom 8:29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
God~ all in all!
Why is it “we” make things confusing and difficult?
Jesus has the Father's Spirit as a Son should.
W.J. It is the Holy Spirit of God that makes us one with God. There is only one Spirit, like Ken says. You see t8 is not alone in not believing in the trinity, I think you are out numbered. It also shows that God is at work in those that have His Spirit and we believe the same truth. As much as we have explained to you, I can't understand that you can say that we are wrong? We have scripture on our side. You ignore it. At one time I taught that doctrine of the trinity and I am sorry that I did. But God opened my eyes and now I see. I pray that He will do the same for you.
Peace and Love Mrs.
Quote (kenrch @ Jan. 03 2008,04:14) One Spirit, Three persons, one God. The “One Spirit” is of the “Three persons” so why is the one Spirit mentioned? If the one Spirit is a separate Spirit than of the three persons then that would make four.
OR is it
One Spirit, One Person, One Person , One person equals one God? Again that would make four. OR is it God=one Spirit, and three Persons? NO! Still four.
Which of the ONE person is the Spirit?
Joh 14:26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.
God's Spirit is sent THROUGH Jesus Because it is by HIS Sacrifice that we are justified and can receive God's Spirit.
Act 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of My Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Luk 11:13 If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will the heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!”
Luk 10:21 In that same hour he rejoiced in the Holy Spirit and said, “I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children; yes, Father, for such was your gracious will.
Luk 12:12 for the Holy Spirit will teach you in that very hour what you ought to say.”
SO the Holy Spirit IS God's Spirit.
The whole question and answer is IF GOD'S SPIRIT IS A SEPARATE PERSON? My Spirit, Holy Spirit, God's Spirit.
IF GOD'S SPIRIT IS A “DIFFERENT” Person then YES there is a trinity. IS the Holy Spirit~God's Spirit~ another son, a different person as JESUS the SON?
The Holy Spirit is God's Spirit of which Jesus and we His brethren are a part of.
Rom 8:29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
God~ all in all!
Why is it “we” make things confusing and difficult?
Jesus has the Father's Spirit as a Son should.
ExecelentQuote One Spirit, Three persons, one God. The “One Spirit” is of the “Three persons” so why is the one Spirit mentioned? If the one Spirit is a separate Spirit than of the three persons then that would make four.
OR is it
One Spirit, One Person, One Person , One person equals one God? Again that would make four. OR is it God=one Spirit, and three Persons? NO! Still four.
Which of the ONE person is the Spirit?
That is the question isn’t it? Because if you say the Holy Spirit is the Father then you have to white out scriptures, for instance….
Jn 16:13
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.Cant be the Father…
- for he shall not speak of himself
- but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak:
- that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
Cant be Yeshua…
- He shall glorify me:
- for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
- that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
Not to mention all the verbs surrounding the pronouns that invariably show the Holy Spirit is a person that Speaks, hears, comforts, leads, teaches, glorifys, recieves, takes, shows, strengthens, gives power, gives life, testifys of Jesus, can be grieved, lied to, and blasphemed, and create and on and on.
Quote
Joh 14:26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.God's Spirit is sent THROUGH Jesus Because it is by HIS Sacrifice that we are justified and can receive God's Spirit.
If so and the Spirit is the Father, then did Jesus send the Father through himself?
Jn 15:26
But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:Quote
Act 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of My Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
And who is it that baptizes in the Holy Spirit?Lk 3:16
John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:Since Yeshua is the baptiser, he is the one that poured out the Spirit in Acts 2. That will give you something to think about.
Yes the Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son.
Rev 22:1
And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.Quote
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.Excellent scripture. You should also highlight ” Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his”
In the same breath Paul says the Spirit of God is the Spirit of Christ!
Quote Luk 11:13 If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will the heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!” Again, if the Spirit is the Father then the Father would be sending himself.
Quote Luk 10:21 In that same hour he rejoiced in the Holy Spirit and said, “I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children; yes, Father, for such was your gracious will. Some translations render it “he rejoiced in Spirit”. Either way the verse shows the distinction between the Father Son and Holy Spirit, yet they are one. There is no disparity in the Godhead.
Quote
Luk 12:12 for the Holy Spirit will teach you in that very hour what you ought to say.”
Matt 10:20
For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.Jn 14:26
But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever *I have said* unto you.In your verse and the two verses I quote above we see all three speaking to us or through us.
Tell me, do you know the difference when God speaks to you? Can you tell if it is the Father, Son or the Holy Spirit? So when you say the Lord spoke to you, who are you speaking of? Seems to me when you say the Lord said do this or that then you are invoking the three. Or would you say, “The Father spoke to me, therefore since the Father is greater than the Son I will listen to the Father and not Jesus?” Or would you say, “Jesus is just a man like us in every way so I would rather listen to the Father?” Or maybe your Unitarian or Arian brother would say, “you mean Jesus spoke to you, since there is only one Lord”?
Quote SO the Holy Spirit IS God's Spirit. True!
Quote The whole question and answer is IF GOD'S SPIRIT IS A SEPARATE PERSON? My Spirit, Holy Spiri
t, God's Spirit.Scriptures say he is.
Jn 16:13
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.Jn 14:16
And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;“Another Greek, ‘allos’ which means; another, other
AV — other(s) 81, another 62, some 11, one 4, misc 2
Almost invariably used as distinguishing something from another. It generally denotes distinction of individuals.
Quote IF GOD'S SPIRIT IS A “DIFFERENT” Person then YES there is a trinity .
True! If one accepts all scripture without using white out then they would agree and be Trinitarians!
Quote IS the Holy Spirit~God's Spirit~ another son, a different person as JESUS the SON? No not another Son, for the Holy Spirit did not come in the flesh and was not born as a Son. Yes he is a different person than Jesus as the scriptures above show by Jesus own words.
Quote The Holy Spirit is God's Spirit of which Jesus and we His brethren are a part of. But we are the Body of Christ and have received the Spirit of Jesus in our hearts crying “abba” Father. Does the Father cry to himself!
Quote Rom 8:29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. Firstborn. Yes, this is a word that has been flying around a lot in referring to Yeshua as a created being. However, the only thing of Yeshua that was created was the tent that he lived in, his body. Jesus said destroy this “temple” and I will raise it again in three days.
He is the Ressurection and the Life! He is the Word that is with God and is God!Jesus Christ is referred to as the firstborn among many brethren which means that Christ is pre-eminant (first and above all.)
By him and through him were all things created, he did not create himself. Jn 1:3 Col 1:15-17.
The Hebrew scriptures show that the “firstborn” does not always mean “the first one to be born”.
Ex 4:22
And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel (Jacob) is my son, even my firstborn:YHWH calls Israel (Jacob) the firstborn, but we know that the Lord said “Esau I have hated but Israel I have loved”. Rom 9:13.
In other words Israel had the preeminence over Esau, even though Esau was the first son to be born
Col 1:18
And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.Was Yeshua the first one to rise from the dead? No, but he has the preeminence.
Quote God~ all in all! And Yeshua All in All! Matt 28:20, Eph 1:23, Col 3:11,
Quote Why is it “we” make things confusing and difficult? The confusion comes when men do not accept all scripture.
Quote Jesus has the Father's Spirit as a Son should. The Father, Son and the Spirit are one!
Hi WJ,
psst.
God has always been one with His own Spirit.
We are too in His image and if we lose our spirit we die.W.J. No matter if the Spirit is a person or not,( I believe it is the Fathers) in Ephesians 4:6 it says that the Father is above all and in us all. And if there is only one Spirit, one Holy Spirit, that is, then it has to be the Fathers since He is above all.
You say that Yeshua was the firstborn of all creation and the firstborn of the dead according to scipture in Col. 1:15-18
Or did you?
One, One,One,One not 3 or 4
How else can we be one with God if there is another Spirit floating around that is of God. I grant you that there are false spirits floating around like Satan and His Demons. So watch out W.J. who you worship.Peace and Love Mrs.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 03 2008,17:35) Quote One Spirit, Three persons, one God. The “One Spirit” is of the “Three persons” so why is the one Spirit mentioned? If the one Spirit is a separate Spirit than of the three persons then that would make four.
OR is it
One Spirit, One Person, One Person , One person equals one God? Again that would make four. OR is it God=one Spirit, and three Persons? NO! Still four.
Which of the ONE person is the Spirit?
That is the question isn’t it? Because if you say the Holy Spirit is the Father then you have to white out scriptures, for instance….
Jn 16:13
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.Cant be the Father…
- for he shall not speak of himself
- but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak:
- that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
Cant be Yeshua…
- He shall glorify me:
- for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
- that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
Not to mention all the verbs surrounding the pronouns that invariably show the Holy Spirit is a person that Speaks, hears, comforts, leads, teaches, glorifys, recieves, takes, shows, strengthens, gives power, gives life, testifys of Jesus, can be grieved, lied to, and blasphemed, and create and on and on.
Quote
Joh 14:26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.God's Spirit is sent THROUGH Jesus Because it is by HIS Sacrifice that we are justified and can receive God's Spirit.
If so and the Spirit is the Father, then did Jesus send the Father through himself?
Jn 15:26
But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:Quote
Act 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of My Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
And who is it that baptizes in the Holy Spirit?Lk 3:16
John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:Since Yeshua is the baptiser, he is the one that poured out the Spirit in Acts 2. That will give you something to think about.
Yes the Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son.
Rev 22:1
And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.Quote
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.Excellent scripture. You should also highlight ” Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his”
In the same breath Paul says the Spirit of God is the Spirit of Christ!
Quote Luk 11:13 If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will the heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!” Again, if the Spirit is the Father then the Father would be sending himself.
Quote Luk 10:21 In that same hour he rejoiced in the Holy Spirit and said, “I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children; yes, Father, for such was your gracious will. Some translations render it “he rejoiced in Spirit”. Either way the verse shows the distinction between the Father Son and Holy Spirit, yet they are one. There is no disparity in the Godhead.
Quote
Luk 12:12 for the Holy Spirit will teach you in that very hour what you ought to say.”
Matt 10:20
For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.Jn 14:26
But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever *I have said* unto you.In your verse and the two verses I quote above we see all three speaking to us or through us.
Tell me, do you know the difference when God speaks to you? Can you tell if it is the Father, Son or the Holy Spirit? So when you say the Lord spoke to you, who are you speaking of? Seems to me when you say the Lord said do this or that then you are invoking the three. Or would you say, “The Father spoke to me, therefore since the Father is greater than the Son I will listen to the Father and not Jesus?” Or would you say, “Jesus is just a man like us in every way so I would rather listen to the Father?” Or maybe your Unitarian or Arian brother would say, “you mean Jesus spoke to you, since there is only one Lord”?
Quote SO the Holy Spirit IS God's Spirit. True!
Quote The whole question and answer is IF GOD'S SPIRIT IS A SEPARATE PERSON? My Spirit, Holy Spirit, God's Spirit. Scriptures say he is.
Jn 16:13
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.Jn 14:16
And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;“Another Greek, ‘allos’ which means; another, other
AV — other(s) 81, another 62, some 11, one 4, misc 2
Almost invariably used as distinguishing something from another. It generally denotes distinction of individuals.
Quote IF GOD'S SPIRIT IS A “DIFFERENT” Person then YES there is a trinity .
True! If one accepts all scripture without using white out then they would agree and be Trinitarians!
Quote IS the Holy Spirit~God's Spirit~ another son, a different person as JESUS the SON? No not another Son, for the Holy Spirit did not come in the flesh and was not born as a Son. Yes he is a different person than Jesus as the scriptures above show by Jesus own words.
Quote The Holy Spirit is God's Spirit of which Jesus and we His brethren are a part of. But we are the Body of Christ and have received the Spirit of Jesus in our hearts crying “abba” Father. Does the Father cry to himself!
Quote Rom 8:29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. Firstborn. Yes, this is a word that has been flying around a lot in referring to Yeshua as a created being. However, the only thing of Yeshua that was created was the tent that he lived in, his body. Jesus said destroy this “temple” and I will raise it again in three days.
He is the Ressurection and the Life! He is the Word that is with God and is God!Jesus Christ is referred to as the firstborn among many brethren which means that Christ is pre-eminant (first and above all.)
By him and through him were all things created, he did not create himself. Jn 1:3 Col 1:15-17.
The Hebrew scriptures show that the “firstborn” does not always mean “the first one to be born”.
Ex 4:22
And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel (Jacob) is my son, even my firstborn:YHWH calls Israel (Jacob) the firstborn, but we know that the Lord said “Esau I have hated but Israel I have loved”. Rom 9:13.
In other words Israel had the preeminence over Esau, even though Esau was the first son to be born
Col 1:18
And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.Was Yeshua the first one to rise from the dead? No, but he has the preeminence.
Quote God~ all in all! And Yeshua All in All! Matt 28:20, Eph 1:23, Col 3:11,
Quote Why is it “we” make things confusing and difficult? The confusion comes when men do not accept all scripture.
Quote Jesus has the Father's Spirit as a Son should. The Father, Son and the Spirit are one!
Quote Jn 16:13
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.God's Spirit guides us to all truth.
God's Spirit is not a separate person so the Spirit CANNOT speak of Himself.
God's Spirit gives the thoughts of God and Jesus who has the Spirit without measure.Is your spirit a separate person?
Does your spirit think and speak on it's own?
We are talking about ~GOD~who can send His Spirit with His message. That's how God speaks to us through HIS SPIRIT.
I believe one day we also will be able to “send our spirit” as our Father does Now.
Don't you speak to the Father through the Spirit? So the Spirit says what you want to say.
Do you “think” OK Spirit tell the Father this?Luk 10:21 In that same hour he rejoiced in the Holy Spirit and said, “I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children; yes, Father, for such was your gracious will.
Jesus rejoiced IN THE SPIRIT and began to speak to His Father NOT another person.
Is the Father alone God or does HE need the Son and Spirit (a separate person) to EQUAL GOD?
God is ONE.
The Holy Spirit IS LIFE from God. The Father is able to impart His Life IN us. That's what makes us His Children! His Spirit ~His Life~ Gives life~. Jesus came that we would have LIFE more abundantly! Heaven Jesus said, is made up of those that are as children. It is “WE” who make things hard and confusing BECAUSE we are still flesh and STILL walk in flesh. If “WE” walked in the Spirit as the Son of Man did then “WE” as Jesus said, “WE” would do ~”at the very least”~ the miracles He did. But instead of lifting each other UP, Satan has HIS CHURCH teaching and deceiving “EVERYONE”! Each of His daughter's teach something different WHICH IS UN-SCRIPTURAL! Their is ONE Spirit who DOES NOT teach one that God is a trinity and another that God is ONE.
A HOUSE DIVIDED WILL NOT STAND! I have already admitted that at times I have mi
ssed what the SPIRIT says. Why? Because UNLIKE a CHILD my mind is still (though not as much) jumbled up with the teachings of the Harlot. There are times when i walk in the Spirit more than other times WHEN the flesh rears up and WARS against my spirit.Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being,
Rom 7:23 but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members.
Rom 7:24 Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?
Rom 7:25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.OH I would that I could walk IN THE SPIRIT all the Time. I believe it IS possible though NOT without trials and tribulation.
Every child of God (to one degree or another) does the work of the deceiver~through the flesh~because of the LIES we were taught by the Harlot OR one of her daughters.Jesus says to HIS People “come out of her”! Rev. 18:4
Father forgive me for the things that I have misinterpreted because of MY FLESH! I pray that ALL would become as children~YOUR CHILDREN~and at last become one in YOUR SPIRIT!
Amen!Jn 16:13
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.The question remains – Who is the “He” mentioned in these verses.
Firstly the first time the term “He” is used it is not in the Greek. Also one needs to properly translate the term “spirit”. The verse should read “Howbeit when the wind/breath of truth, is come.The answer lies very clearly in verse 15. Allowing scripture to interpret scripture and reading within the context. You cannot take a pronoun that assume it implies a noun outside of the overall context.
Jesus says “take of mine” What belongs to Jesus?
Matthew 28:18?And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, ” All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.The Greek word for “All” is “pas”. It carries this meaning – each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things, everything
The Greek word for “authority” is Exousia. It means this – power of choice, liberty of doing as one pleases
leave or permission
physical and mental power
the ability or strength with which one is endued, which he either possesses or exercises the power of authority (influence) and of right (privilege)
the power of rule or government (the power of him whose will and commands must be submitted to by others and obeyed)
universally
authority over mankind
specifically
the power of judicial decisions
of authority to manage domestic affairs
metonymically
a thing subject to authority or rule 4c
jurisdiction
one who possesses authority 4c
a ruler, a human magistrate 4c
the leading and more powerful among created beings superior to man, spiritual potentates
a sign of the husband's authority over his wife
the veil with which propriety required a women to cover herself
the sign of regal authority, a crownSo how much authority was given to Christ? Everything in every respect having to do with heaven and Earth.
Back to the term “He”.
“He” is a pronoun taking place of a noun. What noun is that?
Jesus establishes that in the preceding verses.5″But now I am going to Him (The Father) who sent Me; and none of you asks Me, 'Where are You going?'
6″But because I have said these things to you, sorrow has filled your heart.
7″But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you.(The word send means – to bid a thing to be carried to one
to send (thrust or insert) a thing into another. Jesus bid his father to come. Even as he prayed that we would be one with him and his father, so Jesus bid his Father come)
8″And He (The Father), when He (The Father)comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment;
9concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me;
10and concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father and you no longer see Me;
11and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged.
12″I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.
13″But when He, (The Father) the wind/breath of truth, comes, He (The Father) will guide you into all the truth; for He (The Father) will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.
(The Greek in this verse says, Whatever things He {the father} is hearing he will speak. Present tense, what God is hearing as Jesus spoke. The Father will speak and confirm what is being said and tell you of things to come.)
14″He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you.
(Who glorifies Christ? The Father. The same “He” spoken though out this passage.)
15″All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose it to you.The Father gave all things to Christ and that same Father took of those things to disclose to the disciples via His breath/wind.)
Wj,
The main problem in your post is most of the time the same. You go into study assuming the existence of the Trinity and read this into every scripture you research.
In John 16 you accept an improper translation of the Greek word “pneuma” because it supports your preconceived idea of doctrine. Regardless of what your Trinitarian translators say the meaning of this word is wind or breath.In verse 13 you accept the first written “He” because it lends support to you theory that the “spirit” is a separate person other then YHWH/the Father. This “He” is not in the Greek.
You assume the other times “He” is written it refers to this person of the Spirit that your preconceived ideas conjure up. You do not include the entire context that points out the “He” refers to the Father.
You claim to follow proper hermeneutics and yet here you break three of the most important.
1.You do not accept the actual Greek words in favor of an English translation.
2.You do not go by that actual Greek text.
3.You do not consider the context in it’s entirety.In addition you did not research important parallel scriptures that deal with concepts included in the context.
It's been said before, but how do you get vinegar from a sponge?
The answer is “you cannot”.But if you first soaking the sponge in vinegar, then you can.
So is the thought process of a predefined doctrine in which scripture must fit.
If you soak your understanding with “Trinity”, then you can extract it from pretty much anything with a big stretch of the imagination.
Quote (t8 @ Jan. 04 2008,10:05) It's been said before, but how do you get vinegar from a sponge?
The answer is “you cannot”.But if you first soaking the sponge in vinegar, then you can.
So is the thought process of a predefined doctrine in which scripture must fit.
If you soak your understanding with “Trinity”, then you can extract it from pretty much anything with a big stretch of the imagination.
Esactly cprrect. Onr of the fundemental principles of proper interpretation is to seek truth not proof. When you go into study with preconcieved ideas of the outcome/conclusion you end up merely looking for proof rather then truth.martian If I want to go by all scriptures written, then we have to prove all according to 1 Thes. 5:21
” Prove all things.” nothing is going to fall into our lap. We need to study every day if possible and see by scriptures what is right or wrong. The Holy Spirit will lead you to all truths. But the problem, with some is that they interpret the scriptures according what they want to belief and not what it says. For instance if you take Ephesians 4:4 the Father is above all and in us all. Trinity doctrine says that there are 3in1 all equal in power. So right there is the prove how wrong that doctrine is. But some just do not want to see it. Why? I belief that God is not calling them into all truths right now. They will in the millenium.
It is so simple but yet so hard for some.
Bless you all.
Peace and Love Mrs. It is TRUE! Unless we become as children we read through what we have been taught. People who believe in the trinity read the Trinity in scripture that they were taught.
You will have NO other gods before Me. Call no man Father for you have ONE Father in heaven. Jesus is NOT His Father. There is only one Father, ONE God. HOWEVER Jesus IS God being the SON of God. We will be God because we are children of God. If the Father had NO Son HE would Still be GOD!
All things come from God. Jesus is commander and chief of this new creation Because He is the First Born Son that through His sacrifice gives us the right to become His brethren and children of God. And so His Father calls Jesus ~God~ “Therefore God YOUR God has anointed you”. Jesus is God because HE is the Father's First BORN Son and “WE” His brethren.So we have GOD who has a SON ~God~who has brethren who are gods.
A FAMILY!
Am I claiming to be God? NO! Just what God wants: one of His born Children and brother of the First Born Son.
There is but ONE Father in Heaven and NOW One Son who has MANY BRETHREN. Rom. 8:29
The path is straight, it's not twisted and confusing! Again “WE” confuse and twist thing according to what we were taught..LIES!
Jesus ask “Come out of HER MY People”! Do not partake of her lies (doctrines) LEST you partake of her punishment!
If we misunderstand are we sinning? BUT now is the end time knowledge is increasing. The truth is being proclaimed and there
will be no excuse because in our heart we will know the truth. Even if we choose what we were taught…..the teachings and doctrines of men. In our heart we will know the Truth as the Spirit bears witness with our spirit.Act 17:30 The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent,
Quote (kenrch @ Jan. 05 2008,01:28) It is TRUE! Unless we become as children we read through what we have been taught. People who believe in the trinity read the Trinity in scripture that they were taught. You will have NO other gods before Me. Call no man Father for you have ONE Father in heaven. Jesus is NOT His Father. There is only one Father, ONE God. HOWEVER Jesus IS God being the SON of God. We will be God because we are children of God. If the Father had NO Son HE would Still be GOD!
All things come from God. Jesus is commander and chief of this new creation Because He is the First Born Son that through His sacrifice gives us the right to become His brethren and children of God. And so His Father calls Jesus ~God~ “Therefore God YOUR God has anointed you”. Jesus is God because HE is the Father's First BORN Son and “WE” His brethren.So we have GOD who has a SON ~God~who has brethren who are gods.
A FAMILY!
Am I claiming to be God? NO! Just what God wants: one of His born Children and brother of the First Born Son.
There is but ONE Father in Heaven and NOW One Son who has MANY BRETHREN. Rom. 8:29
The path is straight, it's not twisted and confusing! Again “WE” confuse and twist thing according to what we were taught..LIES!
Jesus ask “Come out of HER MY People”! Do not partake of her lies (doctrines) LEST you partake of her punishment!
If we misunderstand are we sinning? BUT now is the end time knowledge is increasing. The truth is being proclaimed and there
will be no excuse because in our heart we will know the truth. Even if we choose what we were taught…..the teachings and doctrines of men. In our heart we will know the Truth as the Spirit bears witness with our spirit.Act 17:30 The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent,
We are not Gods because we are in our nature deity. We are Gods in two senses. One we are partakers of the divine nature and have the Spirit/breath/wind/essence dwelling in us. Just like Jesus. Two, because from a Hebrew perspective we are Gods because we represent God to the people.Martian……> Jesus said (THOU) are the (ONLY TRUE) GOD….IF the GOD He was talking about is the (ONLY TRUE GOD) then all others are false gods, and again, while there are many so called gods, But unto Us there is only (ONE GOD).
Here is a test to see if you or ken are GOD,s command a glass of water to be turned into wine. let's us know if it happends. We are not gods in any form or comparisons, man want's to be a God and will seal the Glory of GOD and apply it to themselves, this started all the way back from the garden of eve, man trying to take to themself what belonged to GOD ALONE. WE are (NOT GODS) we were made to reflect or image Him, but a reflection or image is never the object it self. It is the same with Jesus also, where did He say He is a GOD.
“HEAR O ISRAEL THE LORD OUR GOD IS ONE LORD”, Jesus is son of man and therefore is man and as a result His relationship with the FATHER has to be the same as ours because we are son of man also, we are also son's of GOD if so be the Spirit of GOD indwells you and while that Spirit is GOD (IN) you ,it is not You. WE are to image GOD and we do this by obeying Him. But even if we obey Him we or Jesus are NOT GOD HIMSELF> There is and will always be (ONLY ONE GOD) Just like Jesus said (THOU ARE THE ONLY TRUE GOD). Men who try to make God's in any form or essences are liers and are stealing the Glory that belongs to the ONE AND ONLY GOD, (THE FATHER).
IMO……..gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Jan. 05 2008,03:52) Martian……> Jesus said (THOU) are the (ONLY TRUE) GOD….IF the GOD He was talking about is the (ONLY TRUE GOD) then all others are false gods, and again, while there are many so called gods, But unto Us there is only (ONE GOD). Here is a test to see if you or ken are GOD,s command a glass of water to be turned into wine. let's us know if it happends. We are not gods in any form or comparisons, man want's to be a God and will seal the Glory of GOD and apply it to themselves, this started all the way back from the garden of eve, man trying to take to themself what belonged to GOD ALONE. WE are (NOT GODS) we were made to reflect or image Him, but a reflection or image is never the object it self. It is the same with Jesus also, where did He say He is a GOD.
“HEAR O ISRAEL THE LORD OUR GOD IS ONE LORD”, Jesus is son of man and therefore is man and as a result His relationship with the FATHER has to be the same as ours because we are son of man also, we are also son's of GOD if so be the Spirit of GOD indwells you and while that Spirit is GOD (IN) you ,it is not You. WE are to image GOD and we do this by obeying Him. But even if we obey Him we or Jesus are NOT GOD HIMSELF> There is and will always be (ONLY ONE GOD) Just like Jesus said (THOU ARE THE ONLY TRUE GOD). Men who try to make God's in any form or essences are liers and are stealing the Glory that belongs to the ONE AND ONLY GOD, (THE FATHER).
IMO……..gene
Then the Father LIED to Jesus when HE called His Son GOD!Heb 1:8 But of the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom.
Heb 1:9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness beyond your companions.”Then scripture says that we are Jesus brethren.
Rom 8:29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
Rom 8:30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
Rom 8:31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?
Rom 8:32 He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things?
Rom 8:33 Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies.How are we to do “greater miracles” than Jesus if we are NOT God's children and Jesus brethren?
Which of Smith's children born to him are NOT his?
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