The Trinity Doctrine

[GeneBalthrop]

Martain…> it was not Jesus' Will to die, it was the Fathers Will, Jesus put His will to death, by denying Himself and through (FAITH) did the Fathers WILL. Just as it say's (BECAUSE) He put His will to death and did the Will of GOD, God Has exalted Him above every Name in Heaven and earth, it was because of His obedience to GOD the Father this was done. It is right to (HONOR) and YELLED to Jesus' authority (to the GLORY OF GOD), and He is the (DOOR), but remember the door is the access to the Object but not the OBJECT which is GOD the Father. They are not the same, It is GOD who forgives us our sins through His Sacrifice, His Lamb Jesus. While Jesus is to be highly Honored, to worship Him as a GOD or Diety is wrong, The work of GOD is not about what Jesus is doing it about what GOD THE FATHER IS DOING, through whom ever He chooses to do it through, rather through Jesus, Moses, the Apostles, you, me, or anyone or thing He chooses to, it's still His work thats being done by HIS SPIRIT, and He should get (ALL) the GLory for what HE DOES.

IMO……….gene

[GeneBalthrop]

Martain….. It was not Jesus who made a way for Us, it was GOD THE FATHER . What does it say, ” GOD so loved the world (HE) gave His only Begotten Son”, So who made the way for Us and why, it was GOD the FATHER, and why Because HE LOVED US.

Give the GLory and praise to whom it's due. Jesus was GOd's wokmanship for our Salvation, not His own. If you want a right relationship with the Father, Worship who Jesus said to Worship and Give Glory to whom He gave Glory to.

IMO….gene

[IM4Truth]

Gen I know what you are saying, but it also says that every Knee will bow and Every Tongue will confess that He is the Lord. He does deserve some Honor and glory. If we Honor Jesus we honor the Father, it says. We should have a relationship with Jesus in order to come before the throne of the Almighty, in fact that is the only way. I do not think if honor Jesus that we take anything away from the Father. I do agree that some do overdo it in today's churches. But the way you write however, sounds like you are not given Jesus any Honor, and that I find wrong, He died for us, He is our Savior and Our King, King of Kings and Lord of Lords. Also He is the Head of the Church. The Head of Christ is the Father. So I belief that w need not to forget Jesus all together either, that is what I got out of your article that you want to do and teach.

Peace and Love Ms.

[martian]

Quote (IM4Truth @ Jan. 01 2008,02:05)

Gen I know what you are saying, but it also says that every Knee will bow and Every Tongue will confess that He is the Lord. He does deserve some Honor and glory. If we Honor Jesus we honor the Father, it says. We should have a relationship with Jesus in order to come before the throne of the Almighty, in fact that is the only way. I do not think if honor Jesus that we take anything away from the Father. I do agree that some do overdo it in today's churches. But the way you write however, sounds like you are not given Jesus any Honor, and that I find wrong, He died for us, He is our Savior and Our King, King of Kings and Lord of Lords. Also He is the Head of the Church. The Head of Christ is the Father. So I belief that w need not to forget Jesus all together either, that is what I got out of your article that you want to do and teach. Peace and Love Ms.

I agree — I have seen in the past those that honor God to the exclusion of the son. The custom at the tim of the Bible writer was to give credence to the son of an important man as if it were the father himself. The son was honored and carried the authority of the father.

S to Gene's coment about Jesus' will – The fact that Jesus surrendered his will to the father does ot exclude the posibility that he could have refused to do so. Jesus had that choice and chose to give his life. For this alone his love for his brothren he deserves honor.

Another important point is we need be carefull that we do not put too much seperation between Christ and the Father. Jesus said they are one and also said we are to become one with them. I do not claim to understand that oness completely, but I do not ignor the posibility that Jesus and the Father are now do merged together that they are virtually inseperable. He is the forunner. the first to partake of the divine nature. Can any of us know what all of this phenom might be?

[kenrch]

Every mouth will confess Jesus is LORD! He IS our LORD. NOT GOD
but LORD of us all! The Lamb is worthy of praise NOT worship!

I praise my LORD Jesus just shy of worship, BUT NOT WORSHIP. Only the Father is to be worshiped!

AMEN? AMEN!

[GeneBalthrop]

Martain and Im4truth…..I have never said to not honor and bow or yelled to Jesus, He certianly is worthy of that, My point was to (WORSHIP) Him as GOD, as so many people do. It's on thing to respect and obey Him, it's quit another to (WORSHIP) and make Him a (DIETY), Jesus Said to do the things He said and no where did He say to (WORSHIP) Him. But today thats all you see going on in these churches, it's as if the FATHER doesn't even exist. It's pure ADOLATRY, Jesus did not come to take GOD's place, but to obey GOD even to the point of Death, Just as Jesus instructed Us to do. There is only (ONE) GOD and one Medeator between GOD and Man (THE MAN) not GOD, Jesus Christ. I will honor and respect Jesus' authority given him by GOD, but I will not make Him my GOD as many do. He is my brother not my GOD. HE obey's the Father and gives Him all Glory and tell us to do the same.

IMO…….gene

[Mr. Steve]

Quote

Martain…. You are right the Father was in Jesus, just as He said, ” the son of man can do (NOTHING) of HIMSELF, the FATHER in me HE does the work. Jesus said GOD is SPIRIT and that SPIRIT who is GOD was (IN) Jesus, and all who Have His Spirit in them Have GOD in them.

Gene;

In many respects we are like Jesus. Jesus said if they persecuted me they will persecute you. If they hate you remember that they hated me.

But in many other respects Jesus is distinguished from us and the prophets including Moses. Paul said that Jesus was worth more honor than Moses in as much as he that built the house is worthy of more honor than the house.

You completely mortalize Christ which contradicts what he said and all the apostles taught in the new testament. He was a man among us, but was still completely the Son of God.

Christ is the only person to walk the face of the earth that could say he was from above and was returning to where he was before. In Acts we see him seated at the right hand of God.

Jesus is the only person who is ascribed to be the Word, the Light, without whom nothing was made that was made. Do any of the apostles make these claims?

Jesus is the only person that said he would be with us to the end of the age.

Jesus is the only person who can claim to be the foundation of the church, the chief cornerstone.

Jesus is the only person that walked the face of the earth that said I will build my church.

Read the New Testament. Look at all the truths that are ascribed to Christ that apply to no other.

The author and finisher of our faith. Hebrews 12:2 Is Christ the author and finisher of your faith? It doesn't sound like it to me. You say you want to glorify the Father but reject his work in his Son. Does that glorify God?

In all of the epistles, do the writers say grace to you from God the Father without also including Christ the Son?

In Acts Jesus said that you would be witnesses unto “me”. Read how they witnessed. If they would have preached the gospel according to your interpretation should they have preached in Jesus name, or proclaimed that anyone was healed by the power of Christ.

There's a group called the Jehovah witnesses that share your interpretation of Jesus. They believe in witnessing for Jehovah (the Father) not the Son. Is that the order of the New Testament?

Any one that hearkens to your interpretation is being led astray, albeit inadvertantly. The most power deception is where the deceiver himself is deceived because he appears so sincere. This is why the Word of God must be the standard of our beliefs. All doctrine must come from the Word of God.

Your doctrine pleases those who are unbelievers and deceivers.

I'm sorry but that's just the way I see it.

Steven

[martian]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Jan. 01 2008,04:33)

Martain and Im4truth…..I have never said to not honor and bow or yelled to Jesus, He certianly is worthy of that, My point was to (WORSHIP) Him as GOD, as so many people do. It's on thing to respect and obey Him, it's quit another to (WORSHIP) and make Him a (DIETY), Jesus Said to do the things He said and no where did He say to (WORSHIP) Him. But today thats all you see going on in these churches, it's as if the FATHER doesn't even exist. It's pure ADOLATRY, Jesus did not come to take GOD's place, but to obey GOD even to the point of Death, Just as Jesus instructed Us to do. There is only (ONE) GOD and one Medeator between GOD and Man (THE MAN) not GOD, Jesus Christ. I will honor and respect Jesus' authority given him by GOD, but I will not make Him my GOD as many do. He is my brother not my GOD. HE obey's the Father and gives Him all Glory and tell us to do the same. IMO…….gene

I can agree with that. Perhaps the concept of “worship” needs defined to make it more clear.

[NickHassan]

Quote (Mr. Steve @ Jan. 01 2008,05:06)

Quote Martain…. You are right the Father was in Jesus, just as He said, ” the son of man can do (NOTHING) of HIMSELF, the FATHER in me HE does the work. Jesus said GOD is SPIRIT and that SPIRIT who is GOD was (IN) Jesus, and all who Have His Spirit in them Have GOD in them. Gene; In many respects we are like Jesus.  Jesus said if they persecuted me they will persecute you.  If they hate you remember that they hated me. But in many other respects Jesus is distinguished from us and the prophets including Moses.  Paul said that Jesus was worth more honor than Moses in as much as he that built the house is worthy of more honor than the house.   You completely mortalize Christ which contradicts what he said and all the apostles taught in the new testament.  He was a man among us, but was still completely the Son of God. Christ is the only person to walk the face of the earth that could say he was from above and was returning to where he was before.  In Acts we see him seated at the right hand of God. Jesus is the only person who is ascribed to be the Word, the Light, without whom nothing was made that was made.  Do any of the apostles make these claims? Jesus is the only person that said he would be with us to the end of the age. Jesus is the only person who can claim to be the foundation of the church, the chief cornerstone. Jesus is the only person that walked the face of the earth that said I will build my church.   Read the New Testament.  Look at all the truths that are ascribed to Christ that apply to no other. The author and finisher of our faith.  Hebrews 12:2  Is Christ the author and finisher of your faith?  It doesn't sound like it to me.  You say you want to glorify the Father but reject his work in his Son.  Does that glorify God?   In all of the epistles, do the writers say grace to you from God the Father without also including Christ the Son?   In Acts Jesus said that you would be witnesses unto “me”.  Read how they witnessed.  If they would have preached the gospel according to your interpretation should they have preached in Jesus name, or proclaimed that anyone was healed by the power of Christ.   There's a group called the Jehovah witnesses that share your interpretation of Jesus.  They believe in witnessing for Jehovah (the Father) not the Son.  Is that the order of the New Testament? Any one that hearkens to your interpretation is being led astray, albeit inadvertantly.  The most power deception is where the deceiver himself is deceived because he appears so sincere.  This is why the Word of God must be the standard of our beliefs.  All doctrine must come from the Word of God.   Your doctrine pleases those who are unbelievers and deceivers.   I'm sorry but that's just the way I see it. Steven

Hi Mr Steve,
Did he have greater origins than us?
Yes
Was he filled to a greater extent with the Spirit of God than we can be?
Yes
Did the vessel of Jesus differ from ours and did he have any advantage over us?
No
He was a normal man.

[martian]

Steven says –
Christ is the only person to walk the face of the earth that could say he was from above and was returning to where he was before. In Acts we see him seated at the right hand of God.

John 17:18 (Jesus speaking to the Disciples)?”As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world.

REsponse –
Sounds like Jesus and us were sent into the world in the same way.

Nick says –
Was he filled to a greater extent with the Spirit of God than we can be?
Yes

Response –
Your comment seems to be speculation. I have seen no evidence that proves we cannot achieve the same “amount” of the Spirit as Jesus.

[NickHassan]

Hi Martian,
Christ was filled with the fulness of the Spirit[Jn3]
Now he fills the various members of his body on earth with the Spirit so that together we are one, with each member having the grace to perform their role but none being capable of all work without the others.
All should have the fruit but none will have all the gifts.

[martian]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 01 2008,06:10)

Hi Martian, Christ was filled with the fulness of the Spirit[Jn3] Now he fills the various members of his body on earth with the Spirit so that together we are one, with each member having the grace to perform their role but none being capable of all work without the others. All should have the fruit but none will have all the gifts.

Again speculation. You are taking true points of scripture and adding a conclussion not indicated by the those facts.

The amounts of fruits and gifts are no indicator of the amount of the Spirit inside. Even Jesus spoke of healing because the Spirit was there to do miracles.

Also must be considered all the scriptures indicating that we are to become like Jesus. Certainly not in calling or position, but the potentiol to be made perect is the same.

[NickHassan]

Hi Martian,
We make together the body of Christ.
The Spirit given Christ is shared by him with us, he being the head and we being members with specific roles.
We are given the grace to produce fruit [Gal5] and some gifts but we can pray for more gifts and more grace to produce fruit [2Peter1].
1Cor 12.

[martian]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 01 2008,07:46)

Hi Martian, We make together the body of Christ. The Spirit given Christ is shared by him with us, he being the head and we being members with specific roles. We are given the grace to produce fruit [Gal5] and some gifts but we can pray for more gifts and more grace to produce fruit [2Peter1]. 1Cor 12.

None of this proves that we are only allowd/capable to have a portion of the Spirit that Christ has.

[NickHassan]

Hi Martian,
Do you think God pours afresh from His Spirit now?
Can you show this?
We know that there is to be a fresh outpouring as shown in Jl 2.
But now we are reborn into Christ.

[you decide]

Quote (martian @ Dec. 30 2007,08:22)

Quote (you decide @ Dec. 30 2007,07:42) Oh there is so much some people don't yet understand. God, Jesus, and the Holdy Ghost are all one in the same. Jesus wasn't fully man and fully God. Jesus was God in a man's body. He was fully God in a man's body. For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily (colo. 2:9). For in him being Jesus, what dwelleth in him was the fulness of the Godhead. Where did it dwelleth was a body. We called the body Jesus. Also known as Emmanuel which being interpreted is, what, God with us. Did you see that. God with us, not someone else, it was God. They are not separate. Is. 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The might God, The everlastin Father, The Prince of Peace. Ok so we all know the son is Jesus. So the son is either The mighty God, The everlasting Father. Or there are now two God(s) and two Father(s). So which is it are they one in the same or are there two gods and two fathers. Isiah 9/6  this scripture is used often to prove that Jesus is God …..For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given; And the government will be upon his shoulder. And his name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there will be no end, upon the throne of David and over his kingdom, to order it and establish it with judgment and justice from that time forward, even forever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this….. First notice that it says a child is born. Not a God comes down from heaven but a child is born. He was born, began, begotten.  He had a beginning.  He was not eternal. In other words a human. Let me bring your attention to the fact that it says his name will be called Mighty God and Everlasting Father.  It does not say he IS the mighty God and everlasting Father. In the ancient Hebrew the term name as is translated in our modern text is not used as an identifier but rather is best translated as character trait. The fact that Jesus came in His Father’s name simple means He had the character of God. Jesus was just a body? Not according to scripture. Luke 23/46 …. Crying out with a loud voice, Jesus said, Father into your hands I commit my spirit.  With these words he gave up his spirit…….   Note it says his spirit and not Ruach HaKodesh ( Hebrew, The Holy Spirit).  The literal Greek calls it…. the spirit of me….  This is not the Spirit of Yahweh but his human spirit. Did Jesus have a will of his own?  John 5/30 … I (Jesus) do not seek my own will but the will of him who sent me…. This verse indicates that Jesus had a choice to seek His own will or that of the Father’s.  Matthew 26/39 ….. Yet not as I will, but as Thou wilt. Again Jesus had his own will but refused to let it overshadow what God wanted and willed. Did Jesus have a soul? Matthew 26/38… My (Jesus) soul is deeply grieved, to the point of death…. So now we have proven that Jesus was made up of a human body, soul, spirit and will.  Since it is clear that Jesus is made up of these parts, we have to ask ourselves, what part is God? This sounds like a complete human being to me! You say they are not separate? So God died on the cross? God gave up his spirit. God has a soul? You say – k so we all know the son is Jesus. So the son is either The mighty God, The everlasting Father. Or there are now two God(s) and two Father(s). So which is it are they one in the same or are there two gods and two fathers. —-or—- Isa 9 as accurately translated says that Jesus came in the character of the Everlasting Father and mighty God.

LOL, yes i notice it says a child is born. Not a God comes down from heaven but a child is born. He was born, began, begotten. He had a beginning. He was not eternal. In other words a human. Let me bring your attention to the fact that it says his name will be called Mighty God and Everlasting Father.

Ummm what doe everlasting mean?

And what was born was the body. The body had a beginning. The spirit that dwellt in the body is that of God. God is a spirit. And if they are not the same who is the father, God or the Holy Ghost, because that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost. So the Holy Ghost is the father. So how can there be two fathers.

They are not separate, God did not die on the cross. The flesh did. The body gave up the spirit that dwelt in it. Do you yourself not struglge with your flesh? Do you not want to please God and submit your flesh and your spirit to the will of God. God submitted this will or that of the flesh to the spirit that dwelt in it. When he said this he was not seeking the will of the flesh, but the will of the one that dwelt in the body. Yes I agree that Jesus had the character of God, but it is because he was God.

When your body dies your spirit is going to spend eternity in heaven or hell.

Again they are one in the same. That is why when the Disciples baptized the baptized in the name Jesus. Name being singular, not names plural. No where was anybody baptized in three names in the Bible.

Again this is why is said there is so much some people don't understand. You have to take the Bible as a whole. If you read the Bible you will see where Jesus is the alpha and omega.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Martian, you said…

Quote

WJ, I am not going to dig through all your diatribe and get caught up in the details that lead down dead ends. Intelectual sidetracking is not my game.

Diatribe? Have you looked at your own post? I address your post line by line, you ignore mine and proceed to post your own “diatribe” and accuse me of sidetracking!

Quote

None of what you say here proves that the Holy Spirit or breath has a personality that is additional to that of the Father. I never denied that the Holy Spirit was God.

Well then if the Holy Spirit is God, then God has a personality right?

If you say the Holy Spirit is the Father then why didn’t Jesus just say so?

Why would he speak of the Holy Spirit as one that he sends?

Why does Jesus speak of the Holy Spirit as  one that is subservient to him as the verses I show proves, which you will not address.

Does Jesus send the Father? Jn 15:26, Jn 16:7

Why do we not see the Apostles refer to the Holy Spirit as the Fathers Spirit?

Quote

I deny it is anything other then the Father manifesting himself in the natural realm.

No, apparently you deny that John 16:13,14 is in the scriptures. Or, I can hear you saying the biased translators added it. If not please give me your interpretation. Look again…

Jn 16:13
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

Cant be the Father…

[martian]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 01 2008,11:13)

Martian, you said… Quote WJ, I am not going to dig through all your diatribe and get caught up in the details that lead down dead ends. Intelectual sidetracking is not my game. Diatribe? Have you looked at your own post? I address your post line by line, you ignore mine and proceed to post your own “diatribe” and accuse me of sidetracking! Quote None of what you say here proves that the Holy Spirit or breath has a personality that is additional to that of the Father. I never denied that the Holy Spirit was God. Well then if the Holy Spirit is God, then God has a personality right? If you say the Holy Spirit is the Father then why didn’t Jesus just say so? Why would he speak of the Holy Spirit as one that he sends? Why does Jesus speak of the Holy Spirit as  one that is subservient to him as the verses I show proves, which you will not address. Does Jesus send the Father? Jn 15:26, Jn 16:7 Why do we not see the Apostles refer to the Holy Spirit as the Fathers Spirit? Quote I deny it is anything other then the Father manifesting himself in the natural realm. No, apparently you deny that John 16:13,14 is in the scriptures. Or, I can hear you saying the biased translators added it. If not please give me your interpretation. Look again… Jn 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. 14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. 15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you. Cant be the Father… for he shall not speak of himself but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you. Cant be Yeshua… He shall glorify me:  for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you. Not to mention all the verbs surrounding the pronouns that invariably show the Holy Spirit is a person that Speaks, hears, comforts, leads, teaches, glorifys, recieves, takes, shows, strengthens, gives power, gives life, testifys of Jesus, can be grieved, lied to, and blasphemed, and create and on and on. Quote What I deny is the use of the term “Holy Spirit” when used to add credibility to that false belief. “Hole Spirit” carries with it an idea of a separate animated personality added to the Father . So since you say the Spirit is the Father, again why didn’t Jesus say so? So if we are to say it is just a breath then you would be saying the Father is a breath. If the Spirit is the Father then how does that work in these verses?… Matt 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the (Father), and with fire: Jn 7:39 (But this spake he of the (Father), which they that believe on him should receive: for the (Father) was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.) Jn 14:26 But the (Father), which is the (Father), whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. Quote It is no surprise that it is translated that way. With the influence of the Catholic Church and 1700 years of tradition it has been justified and propagated over and over again. Most scholars are afraid to even broach the subject for fear that they will be ostracized by their peers. Finally, here it is. Since the translations do not agree with you then it is the bias of the translators influenced by the RCC. So who is interpreting the scriptures with their own doctrine instead of letting the scriptures form their doctrine? Since you show no proof of how the text should be interpreted otherwise or that over 600 scholars were biased then your accusations are pointless. If you believe the text is so corrupt then what is the point. I could claim that Arius who was an RCC priest changed the text and injected Jn 17:3 or 1 Cor 8:6. But, I however do not cry bias or foul play. In fact I see those scriptures as supportive of the deity of Christ since Jesus is elevated in the same breath with the Father. I have also heard all the lame and weak arguments that Trinitarians killed thousands of non-trinitarians, but history shows that their was killing on all sides in those days. Check your history, Arians were also guilty of mudering Trinitarians. Millions of Trinitarians died because of there faith and are still dieing because of their faith. “Interestingly Constantine's son sided with the Arians and exiled Athanansius for his beliefs in the Trinity…. eventually the northern Germanic tribes, also Arians, sacked Rome and persecuted trinitarians until they eventually became trinitarians themselves….. “Constantius was pro-Arian in his leanings and took an active part in the affairs of the Christian church — convening one council at Rimini and its twin at Seleuca, which met in 359 and 360.” (Wikpedia) So this argument is a straw. Quote Scripture says we are to be filled with the Spirit. What is it that fills us but the very presence of the Father. Just like Jesus we are to have the Father in us to do His good pleasure. Jesus prayed that we would be one with the Father as He is.  The filling of the Spirit is that oneness being brought about. (not in completion, but the start) Is it the “Presence of the Father” or the Father? You seem confused! Quote The scriptures you quote pertaining to the Spirit being called He, ect do not prove a separate person either. The He refers to the fact that this breath/wind/spirit is the Father, but not a separate person/personality . Are you  sure? Is the Spirit the Father? For you just said the Spirit is the presence of the Father. If the Holy Spirit is the Father then who is this… Phil 1:19 For I know that this shall turn to my salvation through your prayer, and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ, Here you see that the Spirit is the Spirit of Jesus, not the Father. Gal 4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. Here you see that the Father sent the Spirit that crys “Abba” Father. Is the Father crying to himself? Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. Compare these verses with this… II Cor 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that *Jesus Christ is in you*, except ye be reprobates? Here we see that the Spirit of God is the Spirit of Jesus the “Christ”, which means “Messiah” who is in us. Rom 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. Here we see the same Spirit praying through us. I would like to know how a breath does that? So does the Father pray to himself? Obviously with your view there is a lot of unanswered questions. Quote It is true that pneuma has been translated as other things for example the Human spirit as in John 19/30 and Luke 8/55 – And her spirit came again, and she arose straightway: and he commanded to give her meat. I doubt you want to start substituting “human” spirit every place you see pneuma . Then why would you want to substitiute Holy Spirit with the Father or just a breath? You are making my point. Quote There are many other Greek words that are translated holy and carry meanings as to identify it with God, but none are used in most places where Holy Spirit is translated. Example Mat 1/18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost. Most people read the terms Holy Ghost and equate it equally with the third person of the Trinity, however here the terms Holy Ghost comes from two words meaning most holy one and breath or wind. Hagios – most holy or holy one. Pneuma – breath or wind. So Mary was found with child of the most holy one’s breath. We accept this as being the Father because that is what Jesus himself says. Where does Jesus say the Holy Spirit is the personal spirit of the Father? Quote Tie this in with Acts 2/4 and an interesting picture arises. And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. Same exact words used to describe what fills us. Not another person of the Godhead, but the Father Himself. This understanding was common understanding at the time and did not need repeated time and again. For example in that very verse God uses the term pneuma alone referring to that self same Father’s breath. For this reason the term pneuma in the vast majority of cases refers to the breath of the Father. In most cases there is no justification in the Greek for adding the term “Holy” to the translation of pneuma. It is simply poor translation. Translators come across pneuma and instead of properly translating it wind or breath they add an extra word/concept to it that does not exist in the Greek. This is done to add a false personalization, other then the Father, to the word pneuma that does not exist in the Greek. Can you give me an example of the translators adding to the greek? What about the Hebrew scriptures? Did they add to those also?… Ps 51:11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me. Is 63:10 But they rebelled, and vexed his holy Spirit: therefore he was turned to be their enemy, [and] he fought against them. Is 53:11 Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, and his people, saying, Where is he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock? where is he that put his holy Spirit within him? Quote If there is any personalization due the term “Holy Spirit” in the NT, it should come from the above examples in scripture. Identifying the Holy Spirit as the breath of the Father and not some separate personality added to the one true God the Father. Well then you need to ignore much of the NT to hold that view. It is clear that the Holy Spirit is not the Father, but that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son and speaks not of himself but glorifys the Son and takes what he hears from the Son and gives it to us. Quote This is proper hermeneutics using scripture to define scripture. Not using doctrine to define it. Not using English translations or trinitarian scholars because they lend cresence to my preconcieved ideas of doctrine. Yes of course, poor translations. Maybe you can give us your version of the scriptures. At least show us where the greek differs from the English translations or how it is you can prove bias on the translators part. Good hermeneutics requires taking “all” of the scripture and data that we have and letting that dictate to us our doctrine. Please answer my questions? For I have not sidetracked you! BTW!  Happy New Year!

This post is not worth the time to wade through. You have still not agreed to a system for interpreting scriptur. I refuse to deal with you on that level.
Take your intelectualised philosophy and peddle it to someone else.

[martian]

Quote (you decide @ Jan. 01 2008,11:06)

Quote (martian @ Dec. 30 2007,08:22) Quote (you decide @ Dec. 30 2007,07:42) Oh there is so much some people don't yet understand. God, Jesus, and the Holdy Ghost are all one in the same. Jesus wasn't fully man and fully God. Jesus was God in a man's body. He was fully God in a man's body. For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily (colo. 2:9). For in him being Jesus, what dwelleth in him was the fulness of the Godhead. Where did it dwelleth was a body. We called the body Jesus. Also known as Emmanuel which being interpreted is, what, God with us. Did you see that. God with us, not someone else, it was God. They are not separate. Is. 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The might God, The everlastin Father, The Prince of Peace. Ok so we all know the son is Jesus. So the son is either The mighty God, The everlasting Father. Or there are now two God(s) and two Father(s). So which is it are they one in the same or are there two gods and two fathers. Isiah 9/6  this scripture is used often to prove that Jesus is God …..For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given; And the government will be upon his shoulder. And his name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there will be no end, upon the throne of David and over his kingdom, to order it and establish it with judgment and justice from that time forward, even forever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this….. First notice that it says a child is born. Not a God comes down from heaven but a child is born. He was born, began, begotten.  He had a beginning.  He was not eternal. In other words a human. Let me bring your attention to the fact that it says his name will be called Mighty God and Everlasting Father.  It does not say he IS the mighty God and everlasting Father. In the ancient Hebrew the term name as is translated in our modern text is not used as an identifier but rather is best translated as character trait. The fact that Jesus came in His Father’s name simple means He had the character of God. Jesus was just a body? Not according to scripture. Luke 23/46 …. Crying out with a loud voice, Jesus said, Father into your hands I commit my spirit.  With these words he gave up his spirit…….   Note it says his spirit and not Ruach HaKodesh ( Hebrew, The Holy Spirit).  The literal Greek calls it…. the spirit of me….  This is not the Spirit of Yahweh but his human spirit. Did Jesus have a will of his own?  John 5/30 … I (Jesus) do not seek my own will but the will of him who sent me…. This verse indicates that Jesus had a choice to seek His own will or that of the Father’s.  Matthew 26/39 ….. Yet not as I will, but as Thou wilt. Again Jesus had his own will but refused to let it overshadow what God wanted and willed. Did Jesus have a soul? Matthew 26/38… My (Jesus) soul is deeply grieved, to the point of death…. So now we have proven that Jesus was made up of a human body, soul, spirit and will.  Since it is clear that Jesus is made up of these parts, we have to ask ourselves, what part is God? This sounds like a complete human being to me! You say they are not separate? So God died on the cross? God gave up his spirit. God has a soul? You say – k so we all know the son is Jesus. So the son is either The mighty God, The everlasting Father. Or there are now two God(s) and two Father(s). So which is it are they one in the same or are there two gods and two fathers. —-or—- Isa 9 as accurately translated says that Jesus came in the character of the Everlasting Father and mighty God. LOL, yes i notice it says a child is born. Not a God comes down from heaven but a child is born. He was born, began, begotten.  He had a beginning.  He was not eternal. In other words a human. Let me bring your attention to the fact that it says his name will be called Mighty God and Everlasting Father. Ummm what doe everlasting mean? And what was born was the body. The body had a beginning. The spirit that dwellt in the body is that of God. God is a spirit. And if they are not the same who is the father, God or the Holy Ghost, because that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost. So the Holy Ghost is the father. So how can there be two fathers. They are not separate, God did not die on the cross. The flesh did. The body gave up the spirit that dwelt in it. Do you yourself not struglge with your flesh? Do you not want to please God and submit your flesh and your spirit to the will of God. God submitted this will or that of the flesh to the spirit that dwelt in it. When he said this he was not seeking the will of the flesh, but the will of the one that dwelt in the body. Yes I agree that Jesus had the character of God, but it is because he was God. When your body dies your spirit is going to spend eternity in heaven or hell. Again they are one in the same. That is why when the Disciples baptized the baptized in the name Jesus. Name being singular, not names plural. No where was anybody baptized in three names in the Bible. Again this is why is said there is so much some people don't understand. You have to take the Bible as a whole. If you read the Bible you will see where Jesus is the alpha and omega.

All your premiss hangs on the term “name” what does the term “name” mean in hebrew?

[NickHassan]

Hi WJ,
Of course Jesus referred to the Spirit as the Spirit of the Father.
Matthew 10:20
for it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.

Is that not enough for you?

[Author]

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