The Trinity Doctrine

[Proclaimer]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 20 2007,10:09)

Before you run off on the Jn 10 thing again. They were wicked, there was no light in them. In fact there is no light in any being that was called a “Theos” in the NT other than the Father and Yeshua! Can you show me one example of one?

Oh, so if they were not wicked, but righteous, then they wouldn't be “theos”? That is surely what you are saying.

What about the angels who are told to worship God. They are 'elohim”. Are they wicked angels?

If Jesus says that we are the light, then are you not part of that light?

WJ, your model has too many holes in it. If it was a boat, you could call it the Titanic. Big, impressive, but it sinks.

The Trinity doctrine is a big and widespread doctrine. But is sinks in the scripture sea.

You do not understand that which you teach. Therefore you shouldn't teach on subjects that are out of your depth.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (t8 @ Dec. 20 2007,10:32)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 20 2007,10:09) Of course there are many lights, but there is One light that lights all men. Does your light, light all men. Do you “Fill all things”? All light eminates from the “One True God”! Likewise, there is one God and Father of all. Even though there are gods and fathers. Is your earthly father a false father? Was Abraham a false father? Was Christ a false father for that matter?

t8

Thats the point!!!

The Father and Yeshua is the only one that the words “True Theos” can be said of in the NT.

[Proclaimer]

I disagree.

And the word Father should be no different. For there is ONE Father of all.

So is Abraham a false father?
Is Christ a false father?
Is you dad a false father?
Is every man who has ever had a son or daughter a false father?

I eagerly await your answer because no matter what your answer is, you have a contradiction according to your way of thinking.

Yes means that you are wrong because Abraham is called a father and Jesus is the everlasting father. No means that your own understanding is wrong, i.e., that there is one and all others are false.

Not even luck can save you on this one.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 20 2007,11:27)

t8 Thats the point!!! The Father and Yeshua is the only one that the words “True Theos” can be said of in the NT.

Theos {theh'-os}

1) a god or goddess, a general name of deities or divinities
2) the Godhead
3) spoken of the only and true God
3a) refers to the things of God
3b) his counsels, interests, things due to him
4) whatever can in any respect be likened unto God, or resemble him in any way
4a) God's representative or viceregent
4a1) of magistrates and judges

Why don't you write to the concordance editors and tell them to correct their meaning.

While you are at it, you could write to the psalmist and Jesus with your correction too.

Psalm 97:7
All who worship images are put to shame, those who boast in idols; worship him, all you gods (Elohim)!

Psalms 82:6
“I said, `You are “gods” (Elohim); you are all sons of the Most High.'

John 10:34
Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, `I have said you are gods (theos)'

The most amazing thing about this is that Jesus, the psalmist, and the concordances are all wrong and you are right, (according to you)

Wow, once in a while a real genius rises up.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (t8 @ Dec. 20 2007,10:38)

[/quote] [quote=WorshippingJesus,Dec. 20 2007,10:09]Before you run off on the Jn 10 thing again. They were wicked, there was no light in them. In fact there is no light in any being that was called a “Theos” in the NT other than the Father and Yeshua! Can you show me one example of one?

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Oh, so if they were not wicked, but righteous, then they wouldn't be “theos”? That is surely what you are saying.

Oposites t8. False gods, true gods. which are so-called gods and not gods at all. Sheez.

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What about the angels who are told to worship God. They are 'elohim”. Are they wicked angels?

Yea, what about them? An angel *of* God! Where is the scripture that says Angels are El or Eloyim or Theos?

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If Jesus says that we are the light, then are you not part of that light?

Jn 1:6
There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

We are the light of the world because the true light lives in us. We bear witness not of our own light but of the “true light” which lights everyman that comes into the world.

You cant see the difference?

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WJ, your model has too many holes in it. If it was a boat, you could call it the Titanic. Big, impressive, but it sinks.

If any model has a hole in it it would be the Henotheistic model.

I dont have a model. I accept all scriptures as they are written without contradiction. And my faith in Yeshua stands!

You do have faith in Yeshua dont you? Oh, wait its supposed to be faith in God!…..HMMM?  Is there a difference?

When you say I have faith in God, is it the Father or Yeshua?

Maybe you should say I have faith in them! You are meaning them are you not?

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The Trinity doctrine is a big and widespread doctrine. But is sinks in the scripture sea.

Really. Well since the early Fathers there have been Henotheist and Unitarians and Arians trying to sink it and it still floats.

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You do not understand that which you teach. Therefore you shouldn't teach on subjects that are out of your depth.

No you refuse to believe what I teach because it would be a huge loss of face, so instead you just resort to condemnation, condescention and patronizing. Weak!

[martian]

WJ says –
Really. Well since the early Fathers there have been Henotheist and Unitarians and Arians trying to sink it and it (trinity) still floats.

Res[pnse –
Turds float too but they still stink.
Witchcraft still exists. In fact it is older then Christianity. Does that make it right?
Atheism still exists. Is it right too?

LOL

[NickHassan]

Hi martian,
Please curb your toilet language lest you offend.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 20 2007,11:54)

Oposites t8. False gods, true gods. which are so-called gods and not gods at all. Sheez.

Let's look at this again.

Psalms 82:6
“I said, `You are “gods” (Elohim); you are all sons of the Most High.'

John 10:34
Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, `I have said you are gods (theos)'

Let's see. You are sons of the Most High and gods.

Hmmm.

Your boat just sunk again.

I suppose next you will trying to convince people that they are false sons of the Most High or sons of the Most High False God.

It is what is says. You rejection doesn't change it one bit.

[martian]

Quote (t8 @ Dec. 20 2007,12:43)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 20 2007,11:54) Oposites t8. False gods, true gods. which are so-called gods and not gods at all. Sheez. Let's look at this again. Psalms 82:6 “I said, `You are “gods” (Elohim); you are all sons of the Most High.' John 10:34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, `I have said you are gods (theos)' Let's see. You are sons of the Most High and gods. Hmmm. You boat just sunk again. I suppose next you will trying to convince people that they are false sons of the Most High or sons of the Most High False God. It is what is says. You rejection doesn't change it one bit.

Right again.
It is clear that YHWH in Psalm 82 was rebuking the leaders of Israel for not acting as God toward the people. In the same way, Jesus uses what is called a Remez. He quotes a portion of scripture, but the listeners would understand the entire context from which the quote is taken. Jesus was rebuking the pharasees for not representing God in a correct manner. He compares them to him who was representing God correctly.

The vice regent, the representative, the expression of God

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 20 2007,12:26)

Hi martian, Please curb your toilet language lest you offend.

Actually maybe it isn't offensive.

Look up the meaning of filthy rags for example.

Disgusting is perhaps how God sees it, and therefore could be an apt description.

But yes, curb anything if it offends. Don't eat meat if it offends.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (martian @ Dec. 20 2007,12:24)

WJ says – Really. Well since the early Fathers there have been Henotheist and Unitarians and Arians trying to sink it and it (trinity) still floats. Res[pnse – Turds float too but they still stink. Witchcraft still exists. In fact it is older then Christianity. Does that make it right? Atheism still exists. Is it right too? LOL

Narrow is the way.

But WJ thinks that the mainstream is right.

[NickHassan]

Hi WJ,
The trinity doctrine only arose more than 150 years after the death of Christ.
It is not written in the NT or OT.
So either God brought some new teaching through Emperor Constantine and his lackeys,
Or it is nonsense.

[Oxy]

Quote (martian @ Dec. 20 2007,08:53)

Can one of the Trinitarians tell me how th Trinity helps me to become like Christ?  As important as some think this doctrine is, it should at least do that!

A simple answer my friend. Firstly, let me explain once again to avoid confusion, that I do NOT adhere to a co-equal Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

The Son is the Door to the Father. No-one can come to the Father except through the Son. The goal and purpose of the Son is to make the Father a Father of many.

Once a person is saved, they need the Holy Spirit to teach them and guide them into all truth, as it is written in the Scriptures. One cannot mature as a son of God without having received the Holy Spirit.

The Father is just that. The Father of all who believe in Jesus Christ and are born again.

All three have a functional part in our relationship. The interesting thing is that the three main feasts which Israel were commanded to keep for all time depict the three relationships, but that's another story.

[NickHassan]

Hi Oxy,
The Father does not have a spirit then?
That is odd as the Spirit He refers to as HIS SPIRIT
Jl2
” 29And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit. '

[Oxy]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 20 2007,16:51)

Hi Oxy, The Father does not have a spirit then? That is odd as the Spirit He refers to as HIS SPIRIT Jl2 ” 29And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit. '

The Father(1) IS Spirit,

The Holy Spirit(2) IS the Spirit of God,

The Son(3) IS the Son of God, and the Word of God

The Spirit He will pour out is the Holy Spirit. Hence the rise of the Pentecostal church!

You see Nick, the Holy Spirit empowers us. With the Holy Spirit we are able to, as it was with the early church, speak in tongues, prophesy, lay hands on the sick and see them healed etc etc. I have done all of these things, but was unable to do so before receiving the Holy Spirit. I wasn't able to do them when I was born again, but I was able to after being baptised in the Holy Spirit.

[martian]

Quote (Oxy @ Dec. 20 2007,15:04)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 20 2007,16:51) Hi Oxy, The Father does not have a spirit then? That is odd as the Spirit He refers to as HIS SPIRIT Jl2 ” 29And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit. ' The Father(1) IS Spirit, The Holy Spirit(2) IS the Spirit of God, The Son(3) IS the Son of God, and the Word of God The Spirit He will pour out is the Holy Spirit.  Hence the rise of the Pentecostal church! You see Nick, the Holy Spirit empowers us.  With the Holy Spirit we are able to, as it was with the early church, speak in tongues, prophesy, lay hands on the sick and see them healed etc etc. I have done all of these things, but was unable to do so before receiving the Holy Spirit.  I wasn't able to do them when I was born again, but I was able to after being baptised in the Holy Spirit.

You say the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God. Do you still contend that this Spirit is a seperate person of the Trinity?

[martian]

Yes, but does anyone konw what kind of car the Apostles drove?
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A Honda – silly – They were all in one Accord. LOL

[Oxy]

Quote (martian @ Dec. 20 2007,17:11)

Quote (Oxy @ Dec. 20 2007,15:04) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 20 2007,16:51) Hi Oxy, The Father does not have a spirit then? That is odd as the Spirit He refers to as HIS SPIRIT Jl2 ” 29And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit. ' The Father(1) IS Spirit, The Holy Spirit(2) IS the Spirit of God, The Son(3) IS the Son of God, and the Word of God The Spirit He will pour out is the Holy Spirit.  Hence the rise of the Pentecostal church! You see Nick, the Holy Spirit empowers us.  With the Holy Spirit we are able to, as it was with the early church, speak in tongues, prophesy, lay hands on the sick and see them healed etc etc. I have done all of these things, but was unable to do so before receiving the Holy Spirit.  I wasn't able to do them when I was born again, but I was able to after being baptised in the Holy Spirit. You say the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God. Do you still contend that this Spirit is a seperate person of the Trinity?

Scripture says there is God, who is Spirit. Scripture also talks constantly of the Holy Spirit. The interesting thing is that Scripture differentiates between God and the Holy Spirit.

For example, when the Holy Spirit came upon Jesus at His baptism, God spoke from Heaven. There we have three identities. Jesus, the Word of God being baptised, the Holy Spirit descending upon Him, and the voice of the Father from Heaven.

I tend to steer away from the word trinity as it causes confusion. My understanding is that trinitarians believe in three co-equal beings, which I do not adhere to.

[kenrch]

Quote (martian @ Dec. 20 2007,15:13)

Yes, but does anyone konw what kind of car the Apostles drove? > > > > > > > > A Honda – silly – They were all in one Accord. LOL

[martian]

Quote (Oxy @ Dec. 20 2007,15:18)

Quote (martian @ Dec. 20 2007,17:11) Quote (Oxy @ Dec. 20 2007,15:04) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 20 2007,16:51) Hi Oxy, The Father does not have a spirit then? That is odd as the Spirit He refers to as HIS SPIRIT Jl2 ” 29And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit. ' The Father(1) IS Spirit, The Holy Spirit(2) IS the Spirit of God, The Son(3) IS the Son of God, and the Word of God The Spirit He will pour out is the Holy Spirit.  Hence the rise of the Pentecostal church! You see Nick, the Holy Spirit empowers us.  With the Holy Spirit we are able to, as it was with the early church, speak in tongues, prophesy, lay hands on the sick and see them healed etc etc. I have done all of these things, but was unable to do so before receiving the Holy Spirit.  I wasn't able to do them when I was born again, but I was able to after being baptised in the Holy Spirit. You say the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God. Do you still contend that this Spirit is a seperate person of the Trinity? Scripture says there is God, who is Spirit.  Scripture also talks constantly of the Holy Spirit.  The interesting thing is that Scripture differentiates between God and the Holy Spirit. For example, when the Holy Spirit came upon Jesus at His baptism, God spoke from Heaven.  There we have three identities.  Jesus, the Word of God being baptised, the Holy Spirit descending upon Him, and the voice of the Father from Heaven. I tend to steer away from the word trinity as it causes confusion.  My understanding is that trinitarians believe in three co-equal beings, which I do not adhere to.

So one God = a voice from heave
one God = a dove
and one God = Jesus

This is not proof of anything.In fact if you would seek out the true translation of Holy Spirit, you would steer away from giving it a aeperate identity.
Holy Spirit should be translated the breath set asside for a special purpose.Add that to the truth seen in the OT that clearifies that the breath of God is the animating force of humanity.The source of Life.

This is not a sepertate person of God but rather an extension of the Father as he breaths on humanity giving them life. Even the baptiism of the breath of God is a further blowing of God on the people.

Jesus is seperate from God in nature and essence in that He is a human being.

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