The Trinity Doctrine

Participant

Hi WJ,

Are you one of US?

“For us there is ONE GOD, the Father..”

December 18, 2007 at 8:07 pm#75319

Participant

Some complaints have been made about me “harping” on the concepts of functionality of doctrine and you are probably right. After all the concept of functionality of doctrine is not scriptural.
There is no precedent in scripture for doctrine actually having a function.
I give these scriptural interpretations to prove that functionality is a foreign concept in doctrines such as repentance, faith, Obedience and good fruit.

Repentance –
Acts 3:19?”Therefore repent and return, and nothing will happen.

Faith –
Luke 17:6?And the Lord said, “If you had faith like a mustard seed, you would say to this mulberry tree, 'Be uprooted and be planted in the sea'; and the tree will do nothing.

Obedience –
John 3:36?”He who believes in the Son obtains nothing and he who does not obey the Son will receive nothing

Romans 6:16?Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in no change to you, or of obedience resulting in no change in you?

Bearing good fruit –
Matthew 3:10?”The axe is already laid at the root of the trees; therefore every tree that does not bear good fruit is just fine and should be seen as the way to go.

Of course, these are not accurate quotes. If they were no one would bother walking with God. I misquote them to make a point that we all believe and operate in the functionality of doctrine every day. We repent because it works. By repentance we receive forgiveness. Repentance has a purpose and a function. It changes something in our souls/character.
We operate in faith because it accomplishes something. Not just a head knowledge but an actual tangible result or substance.
We obey because it also does a work. By the same token we understand that disobedience results in a less then favorable conclusions. Obedience does something for us and in us. It brings about a tangible change in our character.
Bearing good fruit is the end result of a life in which we have done the above. Doing all the above, results in good fruit. Doing the above works to build faith, train in righteousness, overcome sin, establish our salvation and change our character. All these doctrines/teachings have a purpose. They “FUNCTION” towards a goal. They actually work and accomplish something. What do they accomplish? The furtherance of God’s plan in us. God’s plan to make other sons and daughters like Christ.

Most Christians will say that Jesus is our example and we are to become like Him but they stop very short of actually believing it. They really only believe we can be partially like Him or think that we will only accomplish that goal in heaven. They claim sin holds us back. They see Christ’s sinless life and look at their own struggles and conclude that Jesus must have some advantage over us. He must be a God. They use this as an excuse for lack of the truth. The truth that Christ has already paid the price for our sins. In fact, all sins of the believer are already forgiven. The sins of past present and future are already gone. They are as far as the East is from the West. We are pure as fresh driven snow in God’s eyes. Any other conclusion invalidates the blood of Christ. With Christ’s blood we can put sin behind us and actually seek character change rather then behavior modification. Unfortunately many ignore scriptures that talk about being perfect and Holy or coming to the full stature of Christ, they justify being less then Christ. They have only been taught the historical dogmas that separate Christ from us. Dogmas that produce doubt about really becoming like Christ. The devil is more then happy to allow us this less then Christ belief and instigated doctrines within the church that actually support it. Doctrines that make Christ less of an example or make him something unattainable. Doctrines that either do nothing to bring about Christ-likeness or in some cases actually work against it.

That which I believe about Jesus Christ’s nature has function and purpose. It does achieve behavior change but does it through character change and not rules. It is not simple head knowledge that produces no fruit other then pride. It requires no mystical, metaphysical or abstract thought process to understand it. Most importantly is that it makes Christ a completely viable example for us in everything that He did.

It is not clear in scripture how Christ was conceived, but the end result must be a full and complete human. I believe that Christ’s purpose on the Earth was to buy back our souls and our position in God’s economy. He is also the perfect example of walking with God as perfected humanity. Scripture clearly teaches that He is the forerunner for us. The example and the one we are to follow.

1 Timothy 1:16?Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.

1 Peter 2:21? For you have been called for this purpose, since Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example for you to follow in His steps,

Hebrews 6:20?where Jesus has entered as a forerunner for us, having become a high priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek.

Christ as my perfect fully human example does something tangible for me. It shows me, with a real live example, that it is possible to do everything that Christ did. From the least of his works to His resurrection directly effects me because it means that I, as a full human, can do the same. In fact, because He went before us and is our mediator we can do greater things then Him.

John 14:12?Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

Doctrines that augment Christ’s full and complete humanity exclude Him as our example. With a less then human Christ, every example He did becomes a matter of speculation as to whether He did it because of being a man or being a God. Everything that He did is now questionable as our example. It is impossible to have faith in speculation. It is impossible to use speculative acts as examples.

All true teachings of scripture will produce good fruit. Good fruit is something that changes the character/heart of the individual. It is not something that strokes our pride in our own head knowledge.
Good fruit does not change the mind it changes the heart. Becoming like Christ is the goal. Any conclusions from scripture, any doctrines derived from scripture, any concepts about the nature of Christ, must serve that goal are they have no positive fruit. They do not FUNCTION toward the plan of God. They either sidetrack us from that goal or in most cases work against that goal.

The doctrine of the Trinity serves no practical purpose in God’s plan. It does nothing to help us become like Christ. In fact, making Christ anything other then human (God, augmented humanity, or dual natured) works against God’s plan.

My heart is to fulfill the plan of God for my life. My Father was gracious to me in giving me a full and complete human example by which I can guide my steps. Every time I have doubt of what God says I can do, I look at my example and say, “If He did it, so can I”. What greater faith builder can I have then a personal relationship with someone (Jesus), just like me, that actually did it? What greater help can I have then to talk to my brother Jesus about how He did it and know that I can do it in exactly the same way? What greater faith can I have then that of my brother who was tempted in all ways just like me and yet overcame? What greater comfort can I have then know my brother, who is just like me, and has suffered persecution and betrayal and understands completely how I feel in these matters?

Why would anyone want to believe any teaching that would lessen these things to any degree. Jesus as a full
and complete human works to accomplish the above things. It has a function that produces good fruit. Every step a doctrine goes away from the complete humanity of Jesus is a step away from the good fruit depicted in the previous paragraph.

Before I get slammed with hundreds of scriptures in response, let me say this: I do not care what you believe the scriptures tell you. I only care about your conclusions. If you want to convince me that you are right, show me how your conclusions/doctrine make Christ a more viable example for me and produce better fruits then the fully human Christ I have described in my beliefs. If you cannot show that your doctrines functions in such a way as to produce fruit that makes me like Christ, then you are wasting everyone’s time.

Simply put, (and you can scream now) show me how your doctrine FUNCTIONS to bring about Christ-like fruit in my life.

BTW – I am not going to bother reading the same old dysfunctional garbage as before. Show me the function or expect no response.

December 18, 2007 at 8:15 pm#75320

Participant

Hi martian,
Is this your salvation message?

“Believe and you are saved
All who hear of Christ and believe are forgiven.
Copy Jesus and you will be like him
No empowerment is required”

It looks like another dysfunctional “save yourself” false gospel.

Do it yourself salvation has always been popular but we cannot save ourselves and it is demanded that we be reborn of water and the Spirit thus being enabled to walk in the ways of Christ.

December 18, 2007 at 9:12 pm#75324

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 19 2007,07:15)

Hi martian,
Is this your salvation message?

“Believe and you are saved
All who hear of Christ and believe are forgiven.
Copy Jesus and you will be like him
No empowerment is required”

It looks like another dysfunctional “save yourself” false gospel.

Do it yourself salvation has always been popular but we cannot save ourselves and it is demanded that we be reborn of water and the Spirit thus being enabled to walk in the ways of Christ.

You are one of the major garbage spreaders. STOP PUTTING WORDS IN MY MOUTH!!!!
I said nothing about empowerment. However, we are required to do something and the system by which God saves us functions toward that goal.
Either speak to the subject of the post or leae it alone.

December 18, 2007 at 9:21 pm#75326

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 19 2007,03:19)

That has to be the best example of condescension and patronizing I have ever seen!

Thanks. At least I think this is a compliment of sorts.

Seriously though, what reward will you receive for teaching a doctrine that is not taught in scripture?
At least if you stick to things in scripture such as the fruits of the Spirit, you can bless people and surely your reward will be better.

You teach the Trinity and admit that it cannot be fully comprehended.

But teaching things you do not understand is actually a foolish thing to do WJ.

Even if you care not for people who read your posts, at least look at it from your point of view, your reward will be better if you teach that which you understand and is of scripture.

December 18, 2007 at 9:29 pm#75328

Participant

Quote (martian @ Dec. 19 2007,08:12)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 19 2007,07:15)

Hi martian,
Is this your salvation message?

“Believe and you are saved
All who hear of Christ and believe are forgiven.
Copy Jesus and you will be like him
No empowerment is required”

It looks like another dysfunctional “save yourself” false gospel.

Do it yourself salvation has always been popular but we cannot save ourselves and it is demanded that we be reborn of water and the Spirit thus being enabled to walk in the ways of Christ.

Hi martian,
So, to clear up this confusion, what is your FUNCTIONAL salvation message?

December 18, 2007 at 9:53 pm#75333

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 19 2007,08:29)

Quote (martian @ Dec. 19 2007,08:12)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 19 2007,07:15)

Hi martian,
Is this your salvation message?

“Believe and you are saved
All who hear of Christ and believe are forgiven.
Copy Jesus and you will be like him
No empowerment is required”

It looks like another dysfunctional “save yourself” false gospel.

Do it yourself salvation has always been popular but we cannot save ourselves and it is demanded that we be reborn of water and the Spirit thus being enabled to walk in the ways of Christ.

Hi martian,
So, to clear up this confusion, what is your FUNCTIONAL salvation message?

It’s not about my salvation message. It is about what scripture says.

1 Cor 15

1Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand,
2by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.
3For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,
4and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,

There are definite things that we must do. It is a covenant with God. If we believe then God saves us.

Verse 1&2 We receive the gospel by which we are saved. What is that Gospel? That Jesus died for our sins, was buried and rose from the dead. God presents the gospel to us (in various ways) We choose to receive/believe it and by that we are saved.

The functionality is that the process which God set up does something. It results in us being saved. It is functional.

The point of the original post still stands. What God teaches does something. It works to help us become like Christ.

December 18, 2007 at 9:56 pm#75334

Participant

Hi martian,
Are you suggesting that hearing the gospel is functionally sufficient for all men to be saved? This is a new gospel and should move to a suitable thread.

December 19, 2007 at 8:05 am#75368

http://www.onelook.com/?loc=pub&w=polytheism

Participant

Quote (david @ Dec. 18 2007,18:07)

Quote

And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us insight to know him who is true, and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. This one is the true God and eternal life.

This is the footnote on this verse from the NET on 1Jn 5:20…

59sn The pronoun This one (οὗτος, Joutos) refers to a person, but it is far from clear whether it should be understood as a reference (1) to God the Father or (2) to Jesus Christ.

Why is it that we so often find that you highlight and show us the scriptures that are “far from clear” such as this one.

Quote

Yeshua is not nor never has promoted Polytheism!

No he hasn't. Is polytheism the worship of more than one god? Jesus himself said that the scripture can't be nulified that spoke of the Israelites being referred to as gods. Was Jesus promoting polytheism? No. We know that “many gods” exist, although many are false. It is the polytheism that is the worship of more than one God that the Bible condemns. Since Jesus directed worship to his father and since the word proskyneo has a variety of meanings, we certainly have no reason to be certain jesus should be worshiped. Yes, he is called God. He deserves to be called God infinitely moreso than the judges or even the angels. He is at the right hand of Jehovah God, with great authority and power. He is truly a mighty one. But there is one who is above all in mightiness, one is who described as “almighty” some 43 times. It is the one whom Jesus said of: “The father is greater than I.” Hence, Jehovah is God to the ultimate degree, and therefore it can be said, he is the only true God.

POLYTHEISM

Encarta® World English Dictionary, North American Edition
belief in several deities: the worship of or belief in more than one deity, especially several deities

Compact Oxford English Dictionary
the belief in or worship of more than one god.

Merriam-Webster's Online Dictionary
belief in or worship of more than one god

Cambridge International Dictionary of English
belief in many different gods

Wiktionary
The belief of the existence of many gods.

The Wordsmyth English Dictionary-Thesaurus
the belief in more than one god.

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language
The worship of or belief in more than one god.

I could go on David but thought this would be enough!

There is more here…

You say…

Quote

Why is it that we so often find that you highlight and show us the scriptures that are “far from clear” such as this one.

You should read on David…

The first predicate which follows This one in 5:20, the true God, is a description of God the Father used by Jesus in John 17:3, and was used in the preceding clause of the present verse to refer to God the Father (him who is true). Yet the second predicate of This one in 5:20, eternal life, appears to refer to Jesus, because although the Father possesses “life” (John 5:26, 6:57) just as Jesus does (John 1:4, 6:57, 1 John 5:11), “life” is never predicated of the Father elsewhere, while it is predicated of Jesus in John 11:25 and 14:6 (a self-predication by Jesus). If This one in 5:20 is understood as referring to Jesus, it forms an inclusion with the prologue, which introduced the reader to “the eternal life which was with the Father and was manifested to us.” Thus it appears best to understand the pronoun This one in 5:20 as a reference to Jesus Christ. The christological affirmation which results is striking, but certainly not beyond the capabilities of the author (see John 1:1 and 20:28): This One [Jesus Christ] is the true God and eternal life.

December 19, 2007 at 9:27 am#75374

Laurel

Participant

Father and Son, One in the Set-apart Spirit.

YHWH our Elohim
Y'shua Messiah, His human Son blessed with YHWH's Set-apart Spirit.

“This is My Son in whom I AM well pleased!”

All was created by YHWH our Elohim through Y'shua Messiah, His Son.

Y'shua WAS there in the beginning, before anything was made that was made. This is possoble because YHWH caused ALL things He will to be done! So it is, and it was, and it will.

Wisdom and understanding are given ONLY to those who have been weaned from His milk. Only those who keep ALL His commandments, are taught through His Set-apart Spirit.

I LJD am Elohim. I and my Father are one. How is it possible that I can be Elohim? I was blessed with His Set-apart Spirit, just like my favorite teacher, Y'shua Messiah. He has shown me the truth. There are NO MYSTERIES!!!

NO MYSTERIES except for “her” the MYSTERY BABYLON. She is the church who teaches mysteries.

Elohim is not the author of confusion.

You would think after almost 1,000 pages, the truth would sink in. No, because none of you keep His Sabbath!

December 19, 2007 at 3:37 pm#75383

Participant

David

You said…

Quote

Your own words betray you.

You say Jesus is a god then say the Father is the “ONLY TRUE GOD”.

If Jesus is a God then is he true?

There is only two choices…

True – False.

Light – Darkness.

Which is it?

December 19, 2007 at 3:52 pm#75385

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 19 2007,08:56)

Hi martian,
Are you suggesting that hearing the gospel is functionally sufficient for all men to be saved? This is a new gospel and should move to a suitable thread.

Did you read the scripture I posted? that is what I believe. If you read something else different into that then you are doing the same thing as the Trinitatians.

I did not bring the nonsense up you did. So go to a new thead.
My post was about the fact that the doctrine of the Trinity does nothing to support the plan of God. It does nothing to help us become like Christ.

December 19, 2007 at 5:13 pm#75391

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 20 2007,02:37)

David

You said…

Quote

Your own words betray you.

You say Jesus is a god then say the Father is the “ONLY TRUE GOD”.

If Jesus is a God then is he true?

There is only two choices…

True – False.

Light – Darkness.

Which is it?

Hi WJ,
Thank you for returning us all once again to stage three, is it?, of the old trinity merry go round.

That is where you define God as being the Father and Jesus by stating all other Gods are false. Next you add in the Spirit of God Himself, by implication.

Then you offer the only reasonable answer to the difficulty you have created by applying logic and inference to scripture the human creation of trinity wheich you say is the only possible choice.

Not an valid answer though because it is from men. And if you had listened to scripture such greek derivations were not ever necessary.

Really you are such a stagestrutting bore desperately trying to justify an ever evil human doctrine. You should rather serve God and desist from opposing Him and defiling His teachings.

December 19, 2007 at 7:53 pm#75396

Participant

Can one of the Trinitarians tell me how th Trinity helps me to become like Christ? As important as some think this doctrine is, it should at least do that!

December 19, 2007 at 8:37 pm#75413

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 19 2007,19:05)

POLYTHEISM

Encarta® World English Dictionary, North American Edition
belief in several deities: the worship of or belief in more than one deity, especially several deities

Such as the Father being God
The son being God.
And the Spirit being God.

That is 3 deities right there.

The answer of course is that there is one God the Father.
This God shares his nature, spirit, and character with others if they are willing.

We can partake in the nature of God as it is written. We can have the Spirit of God live inside us as it is written. We can have attributes of God's character as our character.

The Polytheism charge is against you WJ.

We worship one God the Father as the true God.
You worship 3 as God.

Let the real Polytheist stand up.

December 19, 2007 at 8:44 pm#75416

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 20 2007,02:37)

Your own words betray you.

You say Jesus is a god then say the Father is the “ONLY TRUE GOD”.

If Jesus is a God then is he true?

There is only two choices…

True – False.

Light – Darkness.

Which is it?

Jesus is the light. See John 8:12

But wait a minute we are suppose to be the light of this world. See Matthew 5:14.

OK, so which one is the false light?

Is Jesus the light of the world?
Is the Church the light of the world?
Which one is the false light and which one is the true light according to your model

December 19, 2007 at 9:17 pm#75419

Participant

Quote (t8 @ Dec. 20 2007,07:37)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 19 2007,19:05)

POLYTHEISM

Encarta® World English Dictionary, North American Edition
belief in several deities: the worship of or belief in more than one deity, especially several deities

Such as the Father being God
The son being God.
And the Spirit being God.

That is 3 deities right there.

The answer of course is that there is one God the Father.
This God shares his nature, spirit, and character with others if they are willing.

We can partake in the nature of God as it is written. We can have the Spirit of God live inside us as it is written. We can have attributes of God's character as our character.

The Polytheism charge is against you WJ.

We worship one God the Father as the true God.
You worship 3 as God.

Let the real Polytheist stand up.

exactly right – He can couch it behind greek philosophy and big words, but it boils down to mysticism and 3 gods

December 19, 2007 at 10:59 pm#75443

Participant

Quote (t8 @ Dec. 20 2007,07:37)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 19 2007,19:05)

POLYTHEISM

Encarta® World English Dictionary, North American Edition
belief in several deities: the worship of or belief in more than one deity, especially several deities

Such as the Father being God
The son being God.
And the Spirit being God.

That is 3 deities right there.

The answer of course is that there is one God the Father.
This God shares his nature, spirit, and character with others if they are willing.

We can partake in the nature of God as it is written. We can have the Spirit of God live inside us as it is written. We can have attributes of God's character as our character.

The Polytheism charge is against you WJ.

We worship one God the Father as the true God.
You worship 3 as God.

Let the real Polytheist stand up.

You need to look at the definition again!

You are accusing me of being a modalist.

Fine you can falsly do that if you like.

But I am not the One who “believes” that more than “One god” created the Universe.

You however believe that God made all things through a lessor being or god than himself.

Reconcile all scripture and you will see that God is Plural, Father, Son and Holy Spirit!!!

Of course with the Henotheistic view you cant reconcile all scripture.

You say “The Lord spoke to me”, which Lord t8?

You say God showed me this or that! Was it the Father, Son or Spirit?

You speak of God as I see many here doing and dont even realize you are speaking of the three who does nothing without the other.

Can you tell the difference. Since nothing is done by the Father apart from the Son and the Spirit then with your logic that they are gods of sort, you should be saying…

They told me to do this or that.

They spoke to me.

So who is the Polytheist?

Your logic comes back to you.

December 19, 2007 at 11:09 pm#75447

Participant

Quote (t8 @ Dec. 20 2007,07:44)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 20 2007,02:37)

Your own words betray you.

You say Jesus is a god then say the Father is the “ONLY TRUE GOD”.

If Jesus is a God then is he true?

There is only two choices…

True – False.

Light – Darkness.

Which is it?

Jesus is the light. See John 8:12

But wait a minute we are suppose to be the light of this world. See Matthew 5:14.

OK, so which one is the false light?

Is Jesus the light of the world?
Is the Church the light of the world?
Which one is the false light and which one is the true light according to your model

Of course there are many lights, but there is One light that lights all men.

Does your light, light all men.

Do you “Fill all things”?

All light eminates from the “One True God”!

But of course by your logic all the lights are gods!

Being a true light and being a “True God” who is the source of that light is a different thing.

Its seems you would know these things!

Before you run off on the Jn 10 thing again. They were wicked, there was no light in them. In fact there is no light in any being that was called a “Theos” in the NT other than the Father and Yeshua!

Can you show me one example of one?

December 19, 2007 at 11:32 pm#75453