The Trinity Doctrine

[Oxy]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 18 2007,14:51)

Hi Oxy, Sure his Dad was ever with him. But he was a normal kid and a normal man and only when anointed with the Spirit of God at the Jordan did he come alive in knowledge and power and begin his ministry. Same with Peter and Paul. The Spirit of God enabled these mere men to heal and raise the dead.

So what happened here?

Luk 2:40 And the Child grew and became strong in spirit, filled with wisdom. And the grace of God was on Him.

Luk 2:42 And when He was twelve years old, they went up to Jerusalem according to the custom of the Feast.
Luk 2:43 And fulfilling the days, as they returned, the boy Jesus stayed in Jerusalem. And Joseph and His mother did not know.
Luk 2:44 But they, supposing Him to have been in the company, went a day's journey. And they looked for Him among the kinsfolk and acquaintances.
Luk 2:45 And when they did not find Him, they turned back to Jerusalem, seeking Him.
Luk 2:46 And it happened that after three days they found Him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the teachers, both hearing them and questioning them.
Luk 2:47 And all who heard Him were astonished at His understanding and answers.

[NickHassan]

Hi Oxy,
Guess what his Dad taught him-to love scripture.
We should love it in the same way and base our teaching on the sacred words.

[Oxy]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 18 2007,15:02)

Hi Oxy, Guess what his Dad taught him-to love scripture. We should love it in the same way and base our teaching on the sacred words.

There's nothing wrong with loving Scripture, but it is more important to love the Lord and hear what He has to say to you.

John 5:39 You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life. And they are the ones witnessing of Me,

[Proclaimer]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 18 2007,12:28)

Yeshua is also “True God”.

Hey WJ.

If the Father is the true God.
and Yeshua is the true God,
=======================
equals 2 true Gods.
=======================

Try again.

HINT: It has to add up to one.

[NickHassan]

Quote (Oxy @ Dec. 18 2007,13:07)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 18 2007,15:02) Hi Oxy, Guess what his Dad taught him-to love scripture. We should love it in the same way and base our teaching on the sacred words. There's nothing wrong with loving Scripture, but it is more important to love the Lord and hear what He has to say to you. John 5:39  You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life. And they are the ones witnessing of Me,

Hi Oxy,
What fancy meaning are you reading into these words?
The scriptures speak of the monogenes Son of God so they should have known him when he came.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (t8 @ Dec. 18 2007,13:09)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 18 2007,12:28) Yeshua is also “True God”. Hey WJ. If the Father is the true God. and Yeshua is the true God, ======================= equals 2 true Gods. ======================= Try again. HINT: It has to add up to one.

t8

Still cant understand the “Plurality of Oneness”!

Lets see there is many members to the body of Christ, but each member is the Body of Christ!

Or, there is One Spirit, yet scriptures say there is the Spirit of God, The Spirit of Jesus and the Holy Spirit, so there must be three Spirits?

t8 I didnt write Jn 1:1 and the others.

The Word was with God, and the Word was God!

Why is that so hard to understand?

[Oxy]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 18 2007,15:11)

Quote (Oxy @ Dec. 18 2007,13:07) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 18 2007,15:02) Hi Oxy, Guess what his Dad taught him-to love scripture. We should love it in the same way and base our teaching on the sacred words. There's nothing wrong with loving Scripture, but it is more important to love the Lord and hear what He has to say to you. John 5:39  You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life. And they are the ones witnessing of Me, Hi Oxy, What fancy meaning are you reading into these words? The scriptures speak of the monogenes Son of God so they should have known him when he came.

All I'm saying is that according to Scripture, it is more important to have a relationship with our Lord than it is to know the Scriptures inside out and argue over meanings.

Scripture is, from the beginning, all about God rescuing us and making us part of His family. It's all about Jesus.

Guess what, Jesus lives in me. He talks to me and tells me of things I did not understand. He asks me to do certain things along the way, some of which I don't see the reason for until after the event.

I could survive without the Scriptures (not by choice), but I could not survive without Jesus.

[NickHassan]

Hi Oxy,
Jesus is the Word of God.
Jesus is the living bread from heaven.
He fulfills and proves scripture and scripture proves the Spirit you have is of God.

[kenrch]

Quote (Oxy @ Dec. 18 2007,13:17)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 18 2007,15:11) Quote (Oxy @ Dec. 18 2007,13:07) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 18 2007,15:02) Hi Oxy, Guess what his Dad taught him-to love scripture. We should love it in the same way and base our teaching on the sacred words. There's nothing wrong with loving Scripture, but it is more important to love the Lord and hear what He has to say to you. John 5:39 You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life. And they are the ones witnessing of Me, Hi Oxy, What fancy meaning are you reading into these words? The scriptures speak of the monogenes Son of God so they should have known him when he came. All I'm saying is that according to Scripture, it is more important to have a relationship with our Lord than it is to know the Scriptures inside out and argue over meanings. Scripture is, from the beginning, all about God rescuing us and making us part of His family. It's all about Jesus. Guess what, Jesus lives in me. He talks to me and tells me of things I did not understand. He asks me to do certain things along the way, some of which I don't see the reason for until after the event. I could survive without the Scriptures (not by choice), but I could not survive without Jesus.

Well said Oxy. So you had that experience also! He gives you something to do and by human reason it looks like that doesn't make sense. Then after all is done you SEE Then their is the JOY that follows

[Oxy]

It has happened quite a bit over the years Kenrch. It's always a thrill to be part of what God is doing.

Blessings

[kenrch]

Quote (Oxy @ Dec. 18 2007,13:48)

It has happened quite a bit over the years Kenrch. It's always a thrill to be part of what God is doing. Blessings

Amen Oxy! My spirit bears witness!

[Proclaimer]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 18 2007,13:16)

t8 Still cant understand the “Plurality of Oneness”! Lets see there is many members to the body of Christ, but each member is the Body of Christ!

Of course.

Man + woman.

Two persons, 2 beings, both are mankind.

Or 2 men (as in mankind).

God + Jesus.

Two identities, 2 beings. Both are divine in nature.

Also when we talk to the body of Christ, do you call the body “him”.

No one does. You talk to each person as a he, she. Collectively you use terms like they, them, those, etc. So if this is your theology, then your God should be called they, them, those. If you truly believe in your theory, then go ahead and pray to they, them, those.

Quote

Or, there is One Spirit, yet scriptures say there is the Spirit of God, The Spirit of Jesus and the Holy Spirit, so there must be three Spirits?

Um how long have you been here?

Hebrews 12:9
Moreover, we have all had human fathers who disciplined us and we respected them for it. How much more should we submit to the Father of our spirits and live!

Please there is no need to ask this question again after the answer is given.

Quote

t8 I didnt write Jn 1:1 and the others. The Word was with God, and the Word was God! Why is that so hard to understand?

Oh I see now, you wrote John 1:1 and the Word was the God.

OK, that statement just excluded the Father from being God.

E.g., “and Al Gore is the president”. That statement excludes George Bush.

[david]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 18 2007,12:28)

Quote (david @ Dec. 18 2007,11:23) WJ, I was thinking about this the other day. I know you would say there are many, but I'm wondering what the one single strongest scriptural proof is of the trinity in your mind. Would it be Jehovah being called the “only true God” and Jesus also being called a god or God? (Not that I want to discuss it, I'm just wondering.) David Yeshua is also “True God”. Even your translation says that Yeshua is a god. Would you say then Yeshua is not a “True God”? The thing is if he is a “True God” then unless he is One God with the Father and the Spirit then there is a violation of the Hebrew text which clearly teachs there is only “One True God”, and that all other so-called gods are false. Its not just the scriptures that say Yeshua is “Theos” that I refer to as proof to me of Yeshuas deity. It is also the attributes of Yeshua born out in scripture that to me prove he is “True God” one with the Father and the Spirit. The early Fathers also spoke of the Deity of Yeshua, and I am not aware of any of them refering to Yeshua as being a god. The Trinitarian view leaves no contradictions in the text IMO. The NET has brought out the “One True God” spoke of by John in 1 Jn 5:20… And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us insight to know him who is true, and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. This one is the true God and eternal life. This is the footnote on this verse from the NET on 1Jn 5:20… 59sn The pronoun This one (οὗτος, Joutos) refers to a person, but it is far from clear whether it should be understood as a reference (1) to God the Father or (2) to Jesus Christ. R. E. Brown (Epistles of John [AB], 625) comments, “I John, which began with an example of stunning grammatical obscurity in the prologue, continues to the end to offer us examples of unclear grammar.” The nearest previous antecedent is Jesus Christ, immediately preceding, but on some occasions when this has been true the pronoun still refers to God (see 1 John 2:3). The first predicate which follows This one in 5:20, the true God, is a description of God the Father used by Jesus in John 17:3, and was used in the preceding clause of the present verse to refer to God the Father (him who is true). Yet the second predicate of This one in 5:20, eternal life, appears to refer to Jesus, because although the Father possesses “life” (John 5:26, 6:57) just as Jesus does (John 1:4, 6:57, 1 John 5:11), “life” is never predicated of the Father elsewhere, while it is predicated of Jesus in John 11:25 and 14:6 (a self-predication by Jesus). If This one in 5:20 is understood as referring to Jesus, it forms an inclusion with the prologue, which introduced the reader to “the eternal life which was with the Father and was manifested to us.” Thus it appears best to understand the pronoun This one in 5:20 as a reference to Jesus Christ. The christological affirmation which results is striking, but certainly not beyond the capabilities of the author (see John 1:1 and 20:28): This One [Jesus Christ] is the true God and eternal life. I will say at least the JWS have no problem calling him a god while others in their defence against Jn 1:1 revert to Jn 10 where they say Yeshua called other men god, yet they fall short of calling Yeshua a god, but rather divine. Yeshua is not nor never has promoted Polytheism! In the context Yeshua was rebuking them for “Their Law” spoke of wicked men and judges as being gods, quoting the Psalmist, revealing their own hypocrosy for accusing him of making himself equal to God by saying he was the Son of God. The question is how did they get that he was “Equal” with God by saying he was the Son of God. HMMM? I think there is more to this than just they were falsly accusing him! And if the Pharisees and Sadusees held to a belief in other gods as some claim the sons of God in the Hebrew text is, then why would they say Yeshua is claiming to be “equal” to God? If they knew those text then they would have said you make your self out to be “a god”, not, “you make yourself to be equal to God”. John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. No one seems to wonder why Yeshua would stick his name right next to the Father as the “Only True God” and Jesus Christ showing that the prerequisite to “Eternal Life” is to know the Father and Yeshua. John wrote this as well as Jn 1:1 20:20, 1Jn 1:1,2 and 1 Jn 5:20. 1 Jn 5:1,2 shows Yeshua is the “Eternal life” that was with the Father, which is the Word that was with God and was God. This is the “True God” and Eternal life. Besides all of this… All things were made by or through Him and for him and without him was not anything made that was made and he is before all things by him all things “Consist” and all things are upheld by the word of his power. He is the express Image of the Fathers person, Substance, Essence, the visible image of the Invisible God. All that man shall ever know of the Father can only be known through Yeshua because Yeshua is all that the Father is. No created being could ever reveal all that God is. He like the Father and the Spirit fills all things. He is Omnipresent, Omniscient, and Omnipotent. No created being could have these attributes! Blessings!

Yes, yes, Wj, I've heard this all before and don't wish to explain why you're wrong. My question, once again, was simply this: Would that be your main argument, if you had to pick one?

[david]

ok, even though I said I didn't want to get into this, i can't go around letting WJ think he's right.

IT IS FALSE LOGIC AND JUST WRONG THINKING TO ASSUME THAT BECAUSE THERE IS “ONLY ONE TRUE GOD” THAT EVERYONE ELSE THAT IS CALLED “GOD” IS EITHER A PART OF THAT GODHEAD OR A FALSE GOD.

ARE THE ANGELS A PART OF THE GODHEAD OR ARE THEY FALSE GODS?
THE ANSWER IS “NEITHER” SO THE ARGUMENT IS FINISHED.
THE ANGELS ARE ACTUALLY POWERFUL BEINGS, GODS, IN RELATION TO HUMANS–NOT FALSE GODS, NOT PART OF A GODHEAD.

IF THE ANGELS ARE CALLED GODS AND THE ISRAELITE JUDGES WERE CALLED GODS (AND THAT SCRIPTURE CAN'T BE NULLIFIED) AND IF NEITHER OF THESE TWO WERE FALSE GODS OR PART OF THE GODHEAD, THEN IT IS ILLOGICAL AND FALSELY ASSUME THAT THE STATEMENT “ONLY TRUE GOD” MEANS THAT ALL OTHERS ARE EITHER FALSE GODS OR PART OF A GODHEAD.

Clearly, something has to be wrong with your either/or reasoning. The either/or reasoning is actually a fallacy here, because there is another option.

Maybe an example:

1. T8 is the only real moderator on this site.
2. Nick is also a moderator, but he comes and goes.

Your false reasoning: 'If T8 is the “only real moderator” and Nick is called a moderator, then EITHER Nick is the same person as T8, OR Nick isn't really a moderator.

This is false reasoning. It's the either/or fallacy. You have blinded yourself to another option. And we KNOW there is another option because the angels aren't false gods and they aren't part of a trinity.

The answer lies in the word God and its meaning.
(T8 is the supermoderator and will always be here, it's his site. Nick also moderates. But the degree of each is different, hence, one can be said to be the only real moderator.)

One concordance gives the meaning of elohim this way: “Elohim, G-d (plural of majesty; plural in form but singular in meaning, with a focus on great power); g-ds (true grammatical plural); and person characterized by greatness of power, mighty one, great one, judge” (Zondervan NIV Exhaustive Concordance).

God, means “mighty one” or “great one.” And while many can be called 'mighty' its sort of a relative word. I may be mighty compared to an ant, but certainly am not compared to an angel. And an angel is mighty compared to me, but not to God. Men, angels, Jehovah, can all be called “god.” But only Jehovah is God to all, hence, the only true God.

david

[david]

Quote

And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us insight to know him who is true, and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. This one is the true God and eternal life. This is the footnote on this verse from the NET on 1Jn 5:20… 59sn The pronoun This one (οὗτος, Joutos) refers to a person, but it is far from clear whether it should be understood as a reference (1) to God the Father or (2) to Jesus Christ.

Why is it that we so often find that you highlight and show us the scriptures that are “far from clear” such as this one.

Quote

Yeshua is not nor never has promoted Polytheism!

No he hasn't. Is polytheism the worship of more than one god? Jesus himself said that the scripture can't be nulified that spoke of the Israelites being referred to as gods. Was Jesus promoting polytheism? No. We know that “many gods” exist, although many are false. It is the polytheism that is the worship of more than one God that the Bible condemns. Since Jesus directed worship to his father and since the word proskyneo has a variety of meanings, we certainly have no reason to be certain jesus should be worshiped. Yes, he is called God. He deserves to be called God infinitely moreso than the judges or even the angels. He is at the right hand of Jehovah God, with great authority and power. He is truly a mighty one. But there is one who is above all in mightiness, one is who described as “almighty” some 43 times. It is the one whom Jesus said of: “The father is greater than I.” Hence, Jehovah is God to the ultimate degree, and therefore it can be said, he is the only true God.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (david @ Dec. 18 2007,17:46)

ok, even though I said I didn't want to get into this, i can't go around letting WJ think he's right. IT IS FALSE LOGIC AND JUST WRONG THINKING TO ASSUME THAT BECAUSE THERE IS “ONLY ONE TRUE GOD” THAT EVERYONE ELSE THAT IS CALLED “GOD” IS EITHER A PART OF THAT GODHEAD OR A FALSE GOD.   ARE THE ANGELS A PART OF THE GODHEAD OR ARE THEY FALSE GODS? THE ANSWER IS “NEITHER” SO THE ARGUMENT IS FINISHED. THE ANGELS ARE ACTUALLY POWERFUL BEINGS, GODS, IN RELATION TO HUMANS–NOT FALSE GODS, NOT PART OF A GODHEAD. IF THE ANGELS ARE CALLED GODS AND THE ISRAELITE JUDGES WERE CALLED GODS (AND THAT SCRIPTURE CAN'T BE NULLIFIED) AND IF NEITHER OF THESE TWO WERE FALSE GODS OR PART OF THE GODHEAD, THEN IT IS ILLOGICAL AND FALSELY ASSUME THAT THE STATEMENT “ONLY TRUE GOD” MEANS THAT ALL OTHERS ARE EITHER FALSE GODS OR PART OF A GODHEAD. Clearly, something has to be wrong with your either/or reasoning.  The either/or reasoning is actually a fallacy here, because there is another option.   Maybe an example:   1. T8 is the only real moderator on this site.   2. Nick is also a moderator, but he comes and goes. Your false reasoning: 'If T8 is the “only real moderator” and Nick is called a moderator, then EITHER Nick is the same person as T8, OR Nick isn't really a moderator. This is false reasoning.  It's the either/or fallacy.  You have blinded yourself to another option.  And we KNOW there is another option because the angels aren't false gods and they aren't part of a trinity. The answer lies in the word God and its meaning.   (T8 is the supermoderator and will always be here, it's his site.  Nick also moderates.    But the degree of each is different, hence, one can be said to be the only  real moderator.) One concordance gives the meaning of elohim this way: “Elohim, G-d (plural of majesty; plural in form but singular in meaning, with a focus on great power); g-ds (true grammatical plural); and person characterized by greatness of power, mighty one, great one, judge” (Zondervan NIV Exhaustive Concordance). God, means “mighty one” or “great one.”  And while many can be called 'mighty' its sort of a relative word.  I may be mighty compared to an ant, but certainly am not compared to an angel.  And an angel is mighty compared to me, but not to God.  Men, angels, Jehovah, can all be called “god.”  But only Jehovah is God to all, hence, the only true God. david

David

You said…

Quote

This is false reasoning.  It's the either/or fallacy.  You have blinded yourself to another option.  And we KNOW there is another option because the angels aren't false gods and they aren't part of a trinity.

You asked a question, I answered it. Maybe not to your satisfaction.

But what use is it to throw mud calling me blind!

Why because I dont agree with you?

Do you have all truth?

I have heard all of what you said before and disagree.

You want to believe in gods, then more power to you.

My Bible says there is only “One God” period!

1 Cor 8:4
Therefore concerning the eating of things sacrificed to idols, we know that there is no such thing as an idol in the world, and that there is no God but one.

Exod 23:13
And in all things that I have said unto you be circumspect: and make no mention of the name of other gods, neither let it be heard out of thy mouth.

Isa 45:21
Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.

Isa 44:8
'Do not tremble and do not be afraid; Have I not long since announced it to you and declared it? And you are My witnesses. Is there any God besides Me, Or is there any other Rock? I know of none.' ”

Now David, maybe you can show me one scripture where any Apostle or follower of Yeshua called any other being god besides the oposites which are so-called gods in the NT.

I hear all this talk about angels being gods, however there is no scripture that I am aware of in the NT that calls an angel “Theos”.

And again your Isolated text In John 10 is no proof that Yeshua is promoting Polytheism.

As far as the Hebrew scriptures, the word for angels like the NT could also mean a messenger, so where is the unambiguous scripture in the Hebrew scriptures that calls an angel “El” or “Elohiym”?

Heb 1:13
But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

So you would say that gods are ministering to us, right?

[NickHassan]

Hi WJ,
If the Father is the God of Jesus whom we follow why would you offer any more options?
Or is this intellectual dance more important to you than truth?

[Oxy]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 18 2007,15:31)

Hi Oxy, Jesus is the Word of God. Jesus is the living bread from heaven. He fulfills and proves scripture and scripture proves the Spirit you have is of God.

Absolutely. I totally agree.

But once God told me to buy a truck. Didn't find that in Scripture.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 18 2007,18:52)

You want to believe in gods, then more power to you. My Bible says there is only “One God” period!

OK.

WJ cannot understand. I think we all have to admit this.

He knows that the bible calls angels elohim. He knows that the judges were called theos. Yet he knows that there is one God too.

The answer for him lies in a doctrine that no man can fully understand. A doctrine that cannot be understood explains this dilemma for him. But we know this to be inadequate.

Perhaps we should be talking to WJ about other things. Things that can be easily understood. He obviously cannot comprehend the relationship of God the Father and the son of God. This or maybe God just isn't revealing it to him, or perhaps his heart is proud and the truth cannot penetrate.

Who knows why, but WJ cannot understand for whatever reason. He has been here long enough and had it explained to him in probably hundreds of different ways. Are we not just flogging a dead horse?

WJ, perhaps you should be discussing something like the fruit of the Spirit. I really think you would get much more benefit from such things than trying to discuss things that you cannot understand.

I am sure that you would benefit much more from this than trying to teach about God and his nature. You could also bless people with even a simple understanding of such things.

Just admit that you are out of your depth WJ. We will not hold it against you and we won't even laugh because it is not funny. I personally would love to see you preach that which is scriptural and true, so why not consider teaching that which you understand. There must be something you can say that will bless people with true understanding.

Philippians 4:8
Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things.

Why not consider praying and asking God what he would like you to say and teach? If you are humble and you open your heart to his Spirit, God can use you.

I think we should consider praying for WJ, that he will find his calling in God.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (t8 @ Dec. 18 2007,20:55)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 18 2007,18:52) You want to believe in gods, then more power to you. My Bible says there is only “One God” period! OK. WJ cannot understand. I think we all have to admit this. He knows that the bible calls angels elohim. He knows that the judges were called theos. Yet he knows that there is one God too. The answer for him lies in a doctrine that no man can fully understand. A doctrine that cannot be understood explains this dilemma for him. But we know this to be inadequate. Perhaps we should be talking to WJ about other things. Things that can be easily understood. He obviously cannot comprehend the relationship of God the Father and the son of God. This or maybe God just isn't revealing it to him, or perhaps his heart is proud and the truth cannot penetrate. Who knows why, but WJ cannot understand for whatever reason. He has been here long enough and had it explained to him in probably hundreds of different ways. Are we not just flogging a dead horse? WJ, perhaps you should be discussing something like the fruit of the Spirit. I really think you would get much more benefit from such things than trying to discuss things that you cannot understand. I am sure that you would benefit much more from this than trying to teach about God and his nature. You could also bless people with even a simple understanding of such things. Just admit that you are out of your depth WJ. We will not hold it against you and we won't even laugh because it is not funny. I personally would love to see you preach that which is scriptural and true, so why not consider teaching that which you understand. There must be something you can say that will bless people with true understanding. Philippians 4:8 Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things. Why not consider praying and asking God what he would like you to say and teach? If you are humble and you open your heart to his Spirit, God can use you. I think we should consider praying for WJ, that he will find his calling in God.

t8

That has to be the best example of condescension and patronizing I have ever seen!  

Again, opposites of God, wicked rulers, satan, the man of sin, etc etc etc.

But you nor David can give me one NT example of the word “Theos” ascribed to a man or an angel by the Apostles or the believers in the NT scriptures other than the opposites of God. God is light. The opposite is darkness!

Very simple you see. “One True God” and “many false or so-called gods”.

Therefore, there is “Only One True God' and all other so-called gods are not gods at all!

If you are so sure that there are “true gods” then why dont you adress Yeshua as your god? This is what you are implying is it not?

So all of your belittling and patronizing is just a smoke screen and in fact proves that you dont have an answer to this.

You see t8, I am not the one that believes God made everything through a lessor being than himself, which obviously is a violation of the Hebrew text.

So again, you live with the contradictions!

[Author]

Posts