The Trinity Doctrine

Participant

Quote (Oxy @ Dec. 17 2007,14:57)

Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, the Holy Spirit whom the Father will send in My name, He shall teach you all things and bring all things to your remembrance, whatever I have said to you.

Did the Father send Himself?

I just postd on the other thread the definition of “Holy Spirit” I will not repeat it completely. In essence I said this
Holy means – Set asside for a special purpose
Spirit – means breath or wind.
So yes God sent His special animating/guiding breath/wind to us. He breaths on us like He did in adams nostrils giving him animation. The wind guides us into all truth.

December 17, 2007 at 4:08 am#75059

Participant

Quote (martian @ Dec. 17 2007,15:00)

Quote (Oxy @ Dec. 17 2007,14:54)

Quote (martian @ Dec. 17 2007,14:49)

Quote (Oxy @ Dec. 17 2007,14:25)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 17 2007,14:20)

Quote (Oxy @ Dec. 17 2007,14:05)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 17 2007,13:41)

Hi Oxy,
So Christ was a normal man anointed by the Spirit of God that we can follow?
I agree.

I wouldn't go as far as to call Him normal. He is/was the Son of God and didn't sin. I'd hardly call that normal. He was definately anointed by the Holy Spirit.

Hi Oxy,
Scripture calls him a man but you cannot?

Good grief Nick. Where did I say He isn't/wasn't a man? And you accuse me of presumption!

Of course He was a man!

But you described Him as “normal”. A “normal” man does not measure up to the Son of God, in that context I said I wouldn't call Him normal.

He was made like his brethren in every way.
If he is not just like us then he is not the perfect example for us.

Beg to differ. My father was not God. I was born in sin, Jesus was not.

There had to be something different about Him that enabled Him not to sin.

I am not like Him, but am working towards that goal, and one day i will be transformed.

1. God is your father as source through Adam.
2. You were not born in sin. If you were then had you died at one hour old you would have gone to hell. That ideology is an old Calvinistic doctrine debunked a million times from sunday.
3. If he was not tempted like al men with the same possibility of consequinces then scripture lies.
4. Jesus is our example – If he had an advantage in overcoming sin, how does that help me be like Him? That makes him less of an example for us.

1. My actual father is a man, as is yours. Jesus had God for a Father. This is obviously a distinct advantage.
2. I was born in a state of sin, ie, seperation from God. I did not know God until I was born again.
3. Yes, He suffered temptation, as we all do. The difference is, He is the only one who didn't sin.
4. Jesus is very much our example and our goal. I have no problems with the fact that He was perfect (which is humanly impossible).

December 17, 2007 at 4:10 am#75060

Participant

Quote (IM4Truth @ Dec. 17 2007,15:01)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 17 2007,14:46)

Hi Oxy,
Are there other kinds of men from NORMAL MEN?
He was one of us. We can follow him.

Nick Jesus had Gods Holy Spirit full strenght, is there or was there any other man on this earth that possed that? Not to my knowledge. That makes Jesus somewhat special and not just a normal man. A normal man would have sinned. Jesus could not have sinned, even tho He was tempted in any way we are by Satan. You have to remember that He knew what was at stake here and for that reason I believe He would not sin.
In my own life I have experienced how the Holy Spirit works in me, when I get tempted by Satan and even a white lie for instant would hurt me if I did it. I mean physicall hurt me. That is how I see that Jesus could not sin. Big test that I have failed in my life makes me feel really bad all over. That is how we grow, but Jesus already was the Son of God. That is and makes Him diffrent.

Peace and Love Mrs.

Different only in that He was the first to accomplish God's plan of perfected humanity. He was not diffeent in nature but only in accomplishment. That is why his name is above all other names. His character is better then all other's character. Name caries the concept of character or reputation.

December 17, 2007 at 4:18 am#75062

Participant

Quote (Oxy @ Dec. 17 2007,15:08)

Quote (martian @ Dec. 17 2007,15:00)

Quote (Oxy @ Dec. 17 2007,14:54)

Quote (martian @ Dec. 17 2007,14:49)

Quote (Oxy @ Dec. 17 2007,14:25)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 17 2007,14:20)

Quote (Oxy @ Dec. 17 2007,14:05)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 17 2007,13:41)

Hi Oxy,
So Christ was a normal man anointed by the Spirit of God that we can follow?
I agree.

I wouldn't go as far as to call Him normal. He is/was the Son of God and didn't sin. I'd hardly call that normal. He was definately anointed by the Holy Spirit.

Hi Oxy,
Scripture calls him a man but you cannot?

Good grief Nick. Where did I say He isn't/wasn't a man? And you accuse me of presumption!

Of course He was a man!

But you described Him as “normal”. A “normal” man does not measure up to the Son of God, in that context I said I wouldn't call Him normal.

He was made like his brethren in every way.
If he is not just like us then he is not the perfect example for us.

Beg to differ. My father was not God. I was born in sin, Jesus was not.

There had to be something different about Him that enabled Him not to sin.

I am not like Him, but am working towards that goal, and one day i will be transformed.

1. We do not know that having God as the literal father gave Jesus an advantage. That is speculation. We do know that scripture says he was made under the law and like his brethren in every way. Not in some ways but every way.
2. You were not born in a state of sin. If you believe that then you must conclude that all aborted babies and all who die before they know God are doomed to hell. That is not the God I serve. That false doctrine counters the very nature of God desire that all be saved and none parish. He does not arbitrarily send innocents to hell.
3. So his diference is one of accomplishment not of nature or makeup. I agree with that.
4. Does God command us to do things we cannot possibly do? Be perfect as your father in heaven is perfect ring a bell? Attaining the full stature of Christ ring a bell?

December 17, 2007 at 4:20 am#75064

Participant

I am outta hee for a while. Later gang —

December 17, 2007 at 5:39 pm#75103

Participant

Quote (IM4Truth @ Dec. 17 2007,15:01)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 17 2007,14:46)

Hi Oxy,
Are there other kinds of men from NORMAL MEN?
He was one of us. We can follow him.

Peace and Love Mrs.

You said “Jesus could not have sinned”. This is not true. If it was impossible for Jesus to sin, then he could not be tempted in any way. Being tempted to sin demands the possibility to sin.

To what ever degree you make Jesus different then the est of humanity, to that same degree so you inhibit him being an example for us.

December 17, 2007 at 6:13 pm#75108

Participant

Quote (IM4Truth @ Dec. 17 2007,15:01)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 17 2007,14:46)

Hi Oxy,
Are there other kinds of men from NORMAL MEN?
He was one of us. We can follow him.

Peace and Love Mrs.

Hi Im4,
God chose to fill the normal man Jesus Christ with the fullness of His Spirit.
Christ shares that Spirit with his brothers so that together we make up his body of earth.
But he was just like us.

December 17, 2007 at 8:06 pm#75117

Participant

Quote (martian @ Dec. 18 2007,04:39)

Quote (IM4Truth @ Dec. 17 2007,15:01)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 17 2007,14:46)

Hi Oxy,
Are there other kinds of men from NORMAL MEN?
He was one of us. We can follow him.

Peace and Love Mrs.

You said “Jesus could not have sinned”. This is not true. If it was impossible for Jesus to sin, then he could not be tempted in any way. Being tempted to sin demands the possibility to sin.

To what ever degree you make Jesus different then the est of humanity, to that same degree so you inhibit him being an example for us.

I stand corrected on saying He could not have sinned, but seriously, do you know of anyone else who has never sinned?

Why was it possible for Him and not for any one of the billions of other people? I think the answer is obvious.

December 17, 2007 at 8:13 pm#75120

Worshipping Jesus

Participant

Quote (IM4Truth @ Dec. 08 2007,11:25)

Quote

WJ said…

Yes of course he is not the Father. But he is everything that the Father is. Can you show differently?

Mrs, You say…

Quote

W.J. Yes I can Ephesians 4:4-6
This is the scripture that proves the trinity Doctrine wrong. And others that say that the Father is greater then I from Jesus Himself.

First of all your quote has nothing to do with nature or ontology.

The Father is greater than the Son in rank. Not in nature.
Just as you are no greater human than those who are greater than you.

Now this will blow your mind.

The Son is greater than the Holy Spirit in rank. Yet would you say that Gods Holy Spirit is less God than he is?

Check it out…

Jn 16:14
But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.
15 He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you.

Now here we see the Holy Spirit only “speaks” what Yeshua says to speak and takes from Yeshua and shows it unto us.

The Holy Spirit brings glory to Yeshua (why didnt he say the Father?). The implication of Yeshuas claim here is astounding.
Yeshua sends the Holy Spirit and baptises in the Holy Spirit and fire.

Jn 16:7
But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.

Math 3:11
“I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me will come one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not fit to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.”

The Holy Spirit is “Subservient” to the Son.

Surely this flies in the face of those who say he is just a man like us in every way, or another anointed prophet!!!

For what “son of God” or “god” as some call men, can claim that the Holy Spirit obeys them, or that they baptise men in the Holy Spirit?

Now lets look at your passages.

Eph 4:4-6
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

**One Spirit**

Which Spirit? Or is there more than one?

Phil 1:19
For I know that this shall turn to my salvation through your prayer, and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ,

Rom 8:9
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Spirit of God, Spirit of Christ, Spirit of Jesus? Which is it.
As you show in the verse there is “One Spirit”.

1 Cor 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Many would say that the Spirit of Jesus is in the Spirit of God, thereby claiming there is more than “One” Spirit that we have recieved.

But here is the question. Where do the Apostles in their writings show a distinction between the Spirit of God and Yeshua?

Also, how is it the Spirit of Jesus dwells in every believer in the world speaking to them and leading them all at once?
When you hear the Spirit speak to you, is it the Father, Yehsua, or the Holy Spirit?

Conclusion…
The “One” Spirit is the Spirit of the Father and the Spirit of Yeshua and the Holy Spirit.

Is either One seperated from the other? If Yeshua is a human Spirit, how is it that he can dwell in every believer.

Does he telepath through the Holy Spirit? Yeshua is the great Shephard of the sheep and he knows his own and they follow him. They know his voice, and no man can pluck them out of his hand.

Is there some mere man or creature that you know of that God made or created that could be everywhere in every believer speaking to them and leading them all at once all over the world? Can a created Spirit of man do this?

I dont think so. Yeshua said….

Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. Jn 14:23

Yeshua says, “we will come and make our abode with him”.

Yeshua said…
Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen. Matt 28:20

How many spirits did you receive?

5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

**One Lord**

How many Lords do you have? Yeshua is the “King of Kings and the Lord of Lords”, does this mean the Father is not Lord?

So what makes you think that when the scriptures says there is “One God” that Yeshua is not God also, especially when the scriptures say so.

Does not the Father call him God?

But of the Son he says, “Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever, the righteous scepter is the scepter of thy kingdom. Heb 1:8

Thomas knew who he was and called him his Lord and God without rebuke from Yeshua or the writer John. Jn 20:28. Do you just throw these scriptures out to follow an Arian faith, a man made doctrine that says Yeshua is not deity, but a mere created being like the rest of creation?

**One Faith**

Here is where you hear lots of double talk. People always talking about “Faith in God”. Is our faith supposed to be in the Father, or the Son? Is not the Gospel of God also called the Gospel of Christ?

Can you make a distinction?

Therefore when one says he has faith in God that saves him then he is involking “them” again. The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit since apart from the Holy Spirit drawing men, there is no salvation.

Plurality in Oneness!

**One Baptism**

Need I say who the Baptiser is? And in whos name is it to be done. Not the Fathers, since we don’t know what the Fathers name is.

But we know it is Yeshua, for he has the name that is “Above every name”.

Are you starting to see where this is going? Your scriptures are as much about Yeshua as the Father.

6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Now this is the one you have been waiting for, as if some how this proves that Yeshua is not God.

**One God and Father of all**

We have seen the scriptures that says Yeshua is God, but it will shock you to find that Yeshua also is a Father of all.

For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upo
n his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.Isa 9:6

And why not? After all, “All things were made by him and for him”, that means he is the creator of the human Spirits and would make him a Father of those Spirits.

Abraham and his sons are the Fathers of the faith.

To them belong the patriarchs, and from them, by human descent, came the Christ, who is God over all, blessed forever! Amen. Rom 9:5

Even Paul spoke of being a Father to those in the faith.

For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.

This is not meaning that Yeshua is “the Father”. it simply means he also is a Father, for he is the possesor of all things.

**Who is above all**

Yeshua is above all, in fact he is sitting at the right hand of the Father, not above him nor beneath him but beside him, all power is Yeshuas.

By Yeshua were created and all things consist and all things are upheld by the word of his (Yeshuas) power. Col 1:16,17, Heb 1:2,3

**and through all, and in you all**

Yeshua also is through all and in all…

1 Cor 8:6
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.

This scripture ascribes Deity to Yeshua as well as the Father.

Eph 1:23
which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.

Col 3:11
Here there is no Greek or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all.

Can a mere man be this?

Again, all these are attributes of God. Can you or anybody show me where Yeshua is different in any way to the Father in nature?

If Yeshua says that if you see him you have seen God, then I believe him. For truly he is the express image of the Father.

Yeshua is everything the Father is in nature being revealed to man.

You cannot know or see anything of the Father apart from Yeshua. What created being could reveal all that God is?

Only one that is equal to him in nature!

Blessings! WJ

December 17, 2007 at 8:17 pm#75123

Participant

Hi WJ,
Indeed the glorious clean vessel Jesus revealed God fully to men.
But he was not the God within him that he revealed.

December 18, 2007 at 12:14 am#75161

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 18 2007,09:17)

Hi WJ,
Indeed the glorious clean vessel Jesus revealed God fully to men.
But he was not the God within him that he revealed.

True Nick, by His own confession He came that they/we might know the Father.

Joh 14:6 Jesus said to him, I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life; no one comes to the Father but by Me.

December 18, 2007 at 12:20 am#75162

david

Participant

Quote (Oxy @ Dec. 18 2007,07:06)

Quote (martian @ Dec. 18 2007,04:39)

Quote (IM4Truth @ Dec. 17 2007,15:01)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 17 2007,14:46)

Hi Oxy,
Are there other kinds of men from NORMAL MEN?
He was one of us. We can follow him.

Peace and Love Mrs.

You said “Jesus could not have sinned”. This is not true. If it was impossible for Jesus to sin, then he could not be tempted in any way. Being tempted to sin demands the possibility to sin.

To what ever degree you make Jesus different then the est of humanity, to that same degree so you inhibit him being an example for us.

I stand corrected on saying He could not have sinned, but seriously, do you know of anyone else who has never sinned?

Why was it possible for Him and not for any one of the billions of other people? I think the answer is obvious.

I agree with martian in that he could have sinned, otherwise the word “tempted” would mean nothing. He definitely could have sinned.
The difference between Jesus and us, is that he was the last adam, like adam in one very special way–he wasn't tainted with sin.
Both adam or Jesus could have sinned. Adam did, Jesus didn't.
The rest of the human race since adam has had the imperfection of sin passed down, inherited.
Jesus was different because the holy spirit was involved and “overshadowed” Mary.

December 18, 2007 at 12:23 am#75163

david

Participant

WJ, I was thinking about this the other day. I know you would say there are many, but I'm wondering what the one single strongest scriptural proof is of the trinity in your mind.

Would it be Jehovah being called the “only true God” and Jesus also being called a god or God? (Not that I want to discuss it, I'm just wondering.)

December 18, 2007 at 12:37 am#75167

Participant

Hi WJ,
You say
“You cannot know or see anything of the Father apart from Yeshua. What created being could reveal all that God is?

Only one that is equal to him in nature!”

Nature?

He was a man.
He was a human vessel for God.

God is not a man.

December 18, 2007 at 1:02 am#75173

Proclaimer

Participant

Quote (david @ Dec. 18 2007,11:20)

I agree too.

It is actually possible for a perfect being with FREE will to sin.

Wasn't Satan originally a perfect being?

December 18, 2007 at 1:28 am#75176

Worshipping Jesus

Participant

Quote (david @ Dec. 18 2007,11:23)

WJ, I was thinking about this the other day. I know you would say there are many, but I'm wondering what the one single strongest scriptural proof is of the trinity in your mind.

Would it be Jehovah being called the “only true God” and Jesus also being called a god or God? (Not that I want to discuss it, I'm just wondering.)

David

Yeshua is also “True God”. Even your translation says that Yeshua is a god. Would you say then Yeshua is not a “True God”?

The thing is if he is a “True God” then unless he is One God with the Father and the Spirit then there is a violation of the Hebrew text which clearly teachs there is only “One True God”, and that all other so-called gods are false.

Its not just the scriptures that say Yeshua is “Theos” that I refer to as proof to me of Yeshuas deity. It is also the attributes of Yeshua born out in scripture that to me prove he is “True God” one with the Father and the Spirit.

The early Fathers also spoke of the Deity of Yeshua, and I am not aware of any of them refering to Yeshua as being a god.

The Trinitarian view leaves no contradictions in the text IMO.

The NET has brought out the “One True God” spoke of by John in 1 Jn 5:20…

And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us insight to know him who is true, and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. This one is the true God and eternal life.

This is the footnote on this verse from the NET on 1Jn 5:20…

59sn The pronoun This one (οὗτος, Joutos) refers to a person, but it is far from clear whether it should be understood as a reference (1) to God the Father or (2) to Jesus Christ. R. E. Brown (Epistles of John [AB], 625) comments, “I John, which began with an example of stunning grammatical obscurity in the prologue, continues to the end to offer us examples of unclear grammar.” The nearest previous antecedent is Jesus Christ, immediately preceding, but on some occasions when this has been true the pronoun still refers to God (see 1 John 2:3). The first predicate which follows This one in 5:20, the true God, is a description of God the Father used by Jesus in John 17:3, and was used in the preceding clause of the present verse to refer to God the Father (him who is true). Yet the second predicate of This one in 5:20, eternal life, appears to refer to Jesus, because although the Father possesses “life” (John 5:26, 6:57) just as Jesus does (John 1:4, 6:57, 1 John 5:11), “life” is never predicated of the Father elsewhere, while it is predicated of Jesus in John 11:25 and 14:6 (a self-predication by Jesus). If This one in 5:20 is understood as referring to Jesus, it forms an inclusion with the prologue, which introduced the reader to “the eternal life which was with the Father and was manifested to us.” Thus it appears best to understand the pronoun This one in 5:20 as a reference to Jesus Christ. The christological affirmation which results is striking, but certainly not beyond the capabilities of the author (see John 1:1 and 20:28): This One [Jesus Christ] is the true God and eternal life.

I will say at least the JWS have no problem calling him a god while others in their defence against Jn 1:1 revert to Jn 10 where they say Yeshua called other men god, yet they fall short of calling Yeshua a god, but rather divine.

Yeshua is not nor never has promoted Polytheism! In the context Yeshua was rebuking them for “Their Law” spoke of wicked men and judges as being gods, quoting the Psalmist, revealing their own hypocrosy for accusing him of making himself equal to God by saying he was the Son of God.

The question is how did they get that he was “Equal” with God by saying he was the Son of God. HMMM? I think there is more to this than just they were falsly accusing him!

And if the Pharisees and Sadusees held to a belief in other gods as some claim the sons of God in the Hebrew text is, then why would they say Yeshua is claiming to be “equal” to God? If they knew those text then they would have said you make your self out to be “a god”, not, “you make yourself to be equal to God”.

John 17:3
And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

No one seems to wonder why Yeshua would stick his name right next to the Father as the “Only True God” and Jesus Christ showing that the prerequisite to “Eternal Life” is to know the Father and Yeshua.

John wrote this as well as Jn 1:1 20:20, 1Jn 1:1,2 and 1 Jn 5:20. 1 Jn 5:1,2 shows Yeshua is the “Eternal life” that was with the Father, which is the Word that was with God and was God. This is the “True God” and Eternal life.

Besides all of this…

All things were made by or through Him and for him and without him was not anything made that was made and he is before all things by him all things “Consist” and all things are upheld by the word of his power. He is the express Image of the Fathers person, Substance, Essence, the visible image of the Invisible God.

All that man shall ever know of the Father can only be known through Yeshua because Yeshua is all that the Father is.

No created being could ever reveal all that God is.

He like the Father and the Spirit fills all things. He is Omnipresent, Omniscient, and Omnipotent. No created being could have these attributes!

Blessings!

December 18, 2007 at 1:30 am#75177

Worshipping Jesus

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 18 2007,11:37)

Hi WJ,
You say
“You cannot know or see anything of the Father apart from Yeshua. What created being could reveal all that God is?

Only one that is equal to him in nature!”

Nature?

He was a man.
He was a human vessel for God.

God is not a man.

Can a mere man fill all things?

Hence the dual nature of Christ!

December 18, 2007 at 1:36 am#75181

Participant

Hi WJ,
Did Jesus NEED TO BE more than a man to do God's work?
Did the prophets need to be more than mere men?

You underestimate the transforming empowering work of God's Spirit.

December 18, 2007 at 1:47 am#75186

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 18 2007,14:36)

Hi WJ,
Did Jesus NEED TO BE more than a man to do God's work?
Did the prophets need to be more than mere men?

You underestimate the transforming empowering work of God's Spirit.

Jesus was without sin before the Holy Spirit came upon Him at His baptism. He was also endowed with wisdom before then. (aged 12)

That kinda tells me there was something special about Him, perhaps His Father's influence?

He was/is the Son of God, and also the Son of man of the line of David.

December 18, 2007 at 1:51 am#75188