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Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 04 2007,10:44) Hi MS,
Then where is the plain teaching of Jesus that he is our God?
Well, he spoke in parables. Using many many allegories to express this. He references himself as the good shepherd the good son. The one who wishes Israel in times past would have repented so that he could have taken them into his bosom. etc….It is the apostles that wrote more specifically about this.
Jesus wasn't even letting it be known through most of his ministry that he was in fact the Christ.
I believe he wants us to seek him out for ourselves. Is he the Christ? Is he Lord? (YHWH, as the NT follows directly the tradition of the OT use of Lord for YHWH as found in the septutuagint which WAS the bible of the apostles)
You would need to ask on higher than myself to explain to you why the Father and Son chose to teach in the many they did.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 04 2007,11:15) Hi MS,
So somewhere in there he says he is the God of Israel who spoke to Moses?
One example of specifically what you are asking:37 And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You
have never heard his voice nor seen his form,
38 nor does his word dwell in you, for you do not believe the one he sent.
39 You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them
you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about
me,
40 yet you refuse to come to me to have life.The OT scriptures testify about the LORD the one WHO DID speak to Moses, yet the Jews refused to except that.
Even though it is clearly evident in scripture that YHWH is the son of God who inherited Israel and then the whole world.
Hi MS,
Indeed the scriptures did speak of the Son of God and God's mission of salvation through him.
But none of those scriptures said he was YHWH.
That is your opinion.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 04 2007,12:21) Hi MS,
Indeed the scriptures did speak of the Son of God and God's mission of salvation through him.
But none of those scriptures said he was YHWH.
That is your opinion.
Correct, but more specifically the interpretation I read in scriptures.I share this interpretation with those whom archaeology, textual criticism and early church writings have revealed as the oldest understanding of who Jesus is.
I do think that you fully do not get the fairly direct revelation Jesus is discussing in these verses:
John 5
37 And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You
have never heard his voice nor seen his form,
38 nor does his word dwell in you, for you do not believe the one he sent.
39 You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them
you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about
me,
40 yet you refuse to come to me to have life.Later on in the same chapter he says:
45″But do not think I will accuse you before the Father. Your accuser is Moses, on whom your hopes are set. 46If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me. 47But since you do not believe what he wrote, how are you going to believe what I say?”
Here he further identifies himself as the Lord who spoke with Moses and whom Moses wrote about.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 04 2007,12:21) Hi MS,
Indeed the scriptures did speak of the Son of God and God's mission of salvation through him.
But none of those scriptures said he was YHWH.
That is your opinion.
It is not possible to directly proove that Jesus is YHWH because the NT uses “titles” for diety (Lord, Father and God).We must seek out truth via context since Jesus is called Lord but not directly YHWH. Not even the Father is called by a name other than GOD or Father. So for him one must use context as well.
here, is an example I would like to show you.
NIV
Jude vs. 5
5Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord[c] delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe.
in NIV margin is: [c] Some early manuscripts Jesus
notice here in the ESV (in my opinion the most up to date public translation)
Jude vs. 5
5Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that Jesus, who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe.
My point is the very early christians recognized LORD, YHWH AND JESUS as the same.
Hi MS,
So why would you teach what cannot be shown by you to be true?
Context and inference alone does not suffice.
God is not a God of confusion but of peace.Show me one example where the Israelites worshiped both God and His son and lets look at that.
Some early manuscripts say Jesus in the Jude passage.
One swallow does not make a summer.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 04 2007,14:50) Hi MS,
So why would you teach what cannot be shown by you to be true?
Context and inference alone does not suffice.
God is not a God of confusion but of peace.Show me one example where the Israelites worshiped both God and His son and lets look at that.
Some early manuscripts say Jesus in the Jude passage.
One swallow does not make a summer.
Very well then proove to me that The Father is the one who spoke with and was seen by Moses.or
Proove to Me that the Father is YHWH.
Lets turn the tables.
Its the same both ways Nick.
Then explain to me why YHWH received an inheritence from the MOST HIGH.
This is the same misunderstanding the Jews had in John 8.
Hi MS,
What is plain from the OT and the NT is that there is for us ONE GOD.
That God is not Jesus but he is the Son of God, our Lord.Deuteronomy 6:4
Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:Pr30
4Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?
Mk12
29And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:30And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
31And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.
32And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:
1 Corinthians 8:6
But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
5One Lord, one faith, one baptism,6One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
7But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
5One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
7But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
5One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
7But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;James 2:19
Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.1 John 5:1
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 04 2007,15:41) Hi MS,
What is plain from the OT and the NT is that there is for us ONE GOD.
That God is not Jesus but he is the Son of God, our Lord.Deuteronomy 6:4
Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:Pr30
4Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?
Mk12
29And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:30And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
31And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.
32And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:
1 Corinthians 8:6
But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
5One Lord, one faith, one baptism,6One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
7But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
5One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
7But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
5One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
7But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;James 2:19
Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.1 John 5:1
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
none of these conlfict with what I am saying when you consider the uses of the word God.Indeed there truly is ONLY ONE IRREDUCIBLE FIRST CAUSE, THE FATHER.
This ONE IRREDUCIBLE OMNIPOTENT ETERNAL INVISIBLE FIRST CAUSE decided to create all things through his firstborn son. He also decided to govern the world through his sons whom he appointed as watcher, guardians and gods.
Define for me what this means when translated using YHWH rather than LORD
Hear O Israel: YHWH our elohim is one YHWH
Hi MS,
Certainly you have a different opinion as to the nature of our God.
But since you have no evidence it remains a lone opinion.
And truth is not established on opinion is it?Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 04 2007,16:44) Hi MS,
Certainly you have a different opinion as to the nature of our God.
But since you have no evidence it remains a lone opinion.
And truth is not established on opinion is it?
Nick,At least be honest and acknowledge your interpretations are ALSO your opinions.
Our empass is that we don't agree with each others opinions.
What is your opinion of the Nature of God? And please dont just say what the bible says, because I would be forced to agree with you. What is your interpretation of what the bible says God's nature is?
And I really did want your opinion on the Shema when translated literally.
Hear O Heaven.net Forums: Nick, our friend, is one Nick.
What does this mean? The Shema doesn't make much since if YHWH is actually a personal name and not a title, perhaps even a shared title.
Such as when:
YHWH rained on Sodom and Gomorrah, fire and brimstone from YHWH in heaven.
Hi MS,
There is a familiar look to the odd and different verses you are using to justify your new doctrine. They are also dredged up to try and show there are two gods called YHWH and to try and justify the false trinity theory about God.You have yet to address my query as to which god was being discussed in all those verses if there are two …or three.
And you have yet to show from scripture that the God Jesus came to reveal is himself and not his greater Father God.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 04 2007,17:40) Hi MS,
There is a familiar look to the odd and different verses you are using to justify your new doctrine. They are also dredged up to try and show there are two gods called YHWH and to try and justify the false trinity theory about God.You have yet to address my query as to which god was being discussed in all those verses if there are two …or three.
And you have yet to show from scripture that the God Jesus came to reveal is himself and not his greater Father God.
I don't think Jesus came to reveal himself. I think he came to reveal his Father. In the process he clarifies that Israel has had set over them a divine son of God throughout their history and that he is that son. The very one who spoke to Moses and interacted with all the patriarchs.Just to remind you this isnt new at all. Of course, you seem not to care that history and archaeology support my position and instead just say it's “new”.
Most of modern orthadoxy is new. Including and more importantly the “satisfaction” theory of attonement created by Anselm in the 1100s AD, that pratically all of Christianity sucribes to instead of the origianl “ransom” doctrine.
Christians today believe the God was so JUST and ANGRY that he needed to kill something to calm himself down so he could forgive us. Ironically trinitarians believe he killed himself in his righteous wrath instead of us.
No Christ came to rescue us from the kingdom of darkness and the mess created by the fallen “other” sons of God.
His blood does purify us so that we can enter God's presence, however, God is willing to forgive and has always been willing to forgive without having to kill something or without having to have blood offerings like a vampire God.sorry i got off on a tangent but it boggles the mind when I hear people declare something new when they haven't even taken the effort to see if indeed it is new or if their own “interpretations” are actually the new ones.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 04 2007,15:41) one Faher of us allHi MS,
What is plain from the OT and the NT is that there is for us ONE GOD.
That God is not Jesus but he is the Son of God, our Lord.Deuteronomy 6:4
Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:Pr30
4Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?
Mk12
29And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:30And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
31And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.
32And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:
1 Corinthians 8:6
But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
5One Lord, one faith, one baptism,6One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
7But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
5One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
7But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
5One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
7But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;James 2:19
Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.1 John 5:1
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
Nick When you say one Lord, one Faith, one Baptism, one Father who is above and in us all. You say those scripture come out of Cointh. I find them in Ephesians 4:4-6. Is trhat not what you meant to say?Peace and Love Mrs.
Nick, throughout scripture you just need to keep in mind the following and questions like “well which ?od is talking?” or which God is being spoken of?” won't be as hard to understand.
Jesus is the “word of God”.
Whenever God is communicating it is Jesus doing the talking.
However, Jesus is one with the Father in nature, purpose, intent, obediance, and love (and a bunch of other traits) therefore he only says and does what his Father wants him to do and say.
Unfortunately, the other sons of the other nations were not “one” with the Father as the “one” good shepherd was and is.
We will one day be one and bare the same privelage and glory as Jesus.
Morningstar I have a Question for you, do you worship Jesus the same way then you worship our Heavenly Father?
Peace and Love Mrs.
Quote (IM4Truth @ Dec. 04 2007,18:36) Morningstar I have a Question for you, do you worship Jesus the same way then you worship our Heavenly Father? Peace and Love Mrs.
Well yes and no.Meaning I don't physically or verbally differentiate between the two. I sing and praise both….etc..
However, intellectually and spiritualy I acknowledge the MOST HIGH as truly being the MOST HIGH and greater than the son.
I worship as the angels do; they worship both Father and Son.
And when he brings the firstborn into the world he says let all God's angels worship him.
It pleases the Father to have his fullness of deity dwell in his unique firstborn son.
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