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Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 03 2007,15:24) Quote (Morningstar @ Dec. 03 2007,13:50) Two powers operating as one over creation. The unbegetton ever existing eternal omnipoten Father El Elyon.
and
His firstborn, begotten, Son, YHWH, who was appointed over Israel. He loved righteousness and was the only good steward of his nation. The other sons where sentenced to death (psalm 82) and Jesus the good shepherd inherited all nations usurping their power. As Jesus identified himself in John 10.
No longer is the earth governed under a divine council of sons (gods) under an omnipotent Father (God).
Now The Father (El) rules by only one mediator. Directly through the regency of his firstborn and only faithful son, Jesus (YHWH).
Hi MS,
Another new gospel of strange gods?
Serve the God of Israel and of Jesus, the Father.
actually its not new at all.read the early church fathers. look into the historic evidence.
our modern “orthadoxy” is the new gospel.
I agree with you, though. Serve the God of Jesus, the God of Israel. El Elyon the Most HIGH.
However, we should serve his son Jesus (YHWH) as well. He appointed him our King and our God.
Hi MS,
Where is Jesus appointed as our God?Even Jesus says the Father is his God.
Are we not following him?God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself.[2Cor5.19]
Was God in God?God is at work in us too to will and to do[Phil]
Which God?Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 03 2007,16:39) Hi MS,
Where is Jesus appointed as our God?Even Jesus says the Father is his God.
Are we not following him?God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself.[2Cor5.19]
Was God in God?God is at work in us too to will and to do[Phil]
Which God?
He was appointed the God of Israel at babel, when The Father divided the nations. The Table of Nations found in Genesis chapter 10.Dueteronomy 32
8When the Most High (El Elyon) gave to the nations their inheritance,
when he divided mankind,
he fixed the borders of the peoples
according to the number of the sons of God.
9But the LORD’s (YHWH) portion is his people,
Jacob his allotted heritage.
10″He found him in a desert land,
and in the howling waste of the wilderness;
he encircled him, he cared for him,
he kept him as the apple of his eye.Remember when Jacob wrestled God? He was wrestling YHWH the son of the Most High, the appointed elohim over Israel.
YHWH was watching him and encircling him, carrying for him and keeping him as the apple of his eye until the appointed time to establish his covenant on mount sinai.
Yes the Father is Jesus's (YHWH) God and our God, I agree!
We are to follow him, yes!El Elyon via his holy spirit was in his Son YHWH who had taken the form of a man. Yes the Father was in the Son.
Both God's are in us Nick, this is basic Christianity.
Jesus is in us, which allows the Father to be in us since the Father is in Jesus. It's like one of those Russian dolls that you stack inside of each other, metaphorically speaking.
Christianity acknowledges many supernatural beings. Many have the title “god”.
Christianity worships two Gods. The Father and The Son.
The Father because he is the source of all and the only true immortal eternal God.
The Son because he is divine like his Father and has been appointed as:
God
King
ChristThe word God is a title.
I repeat the word God is a title.
It can mean “a mighty one”.
it is also used in the new testament to signify THE ONE AND ONLY TRUE GOD.
Once again meaning that at one point in the distant past only the Father El Elyon existed and no other.
That is the monotheism of Christianity. The origin of all things does indeed come from ONE eternal self existing God.
But the administration and goverment of heaven is henotheism. The Father chose to do this. Does that make the Father no longer the ONE TRUE GOD. Of course not, it is his chosen method of governing creation.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 03 2007,20:19) Hi MS,
Lots of opinion but little supporting evidence.
Well sure if you ignore the majority of bible scholars who are not affiliated with a religious denomination or tradition.And if you ignore archaeology. If you ignore Josephus's writings. If you ignore the writings of the early church. If you ignore the evidence of the various splinter groups of christianity such as the gnostics.
And last of all if you ignore the evidence and verses I do post to support my view. I think most start to read my posts and find something so foreign to them or contrary to their current beliefs that they don't even finish the post let alone consider it.
Well, I guess I understand, I had my own paradigm shift myself and they aren't easy.
Lack of evidence? Or just complete dismal before even considering the evidence?
Morningstar I do not worship Jesus the way I worship our Heavenly Father. Even by the word of Jesus he said that the Father is greater then I. I grant you that He is our King and Lord of Lords and the Head of the Church, but we have to keep things in line other wise we will sin against God Almighty. We Honor our King of King and Lord of Lord and worship to our Father Almighty. To me there is a diffrence. I hope for you too.
Peace and Love Mrs.
Quote (Morningstar @ Dec. 03 2007,20:33) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 03 2007,20:19) Hi MS,
Lots of opinion but little supporting evidence.
Well sure if you ignore the majority of bible scholars who are not affiliated with a religious denomination or tradition.And if you ignore archaeology. If you ignore Josephus's writings. If you ignore the writings of the early church. If you ignore the evidence of the various splinter groups of christianity such as the gnostics.
And last of all if you ignore the evidence and verses I do post to support my view. I think most start to read my posts and find something so foreign to them or contrary to their current beliefs that they don't even finish the post let alone consider it.
Well, I guess I understand, I had my own paradigm shift myself and they aren't easy.
Lack of evidence? Or just complete dismal before even considering the evidence?
Hi MS,
Should we follow the gnostics and other satellite theologies when truth is so much better?Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 04 2007,05:14) Quote (Morningstar @ Dec. 03 2007,20:33) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 03 2007,20:19) Hi MS,
Lots of opinion but little supporting evidence.
Well sure if you ignore the majority of bible scholars who are not affiliated with a religious denomination or tradition.And if you ignore archaeology. If you ignore Josephus's writings. If you ignore the writings of the early church. If you ignore the evidence of the various splinter groups of christianity such as the gnostics.
And last of all if you ignore the evidence and verses I do post to support my view. I think most start to read my posts and find something so foreign to them or contrary to their current beliefs that they don't even finish the post let alone consider it.
Well, I guess I understand, I had my own paradigm shift myself and they aren't easy.
Lack of evidence? Or just complete dismal before even considering the evidence?
Hi MS,
Should we follow the gnostics and other satellite theologies when truth is so much better?
no we shouldn't. and I don't. I referenced them to bring into perspective how they rejected Jesus being YHWH because they thought the creator was evil. So they concocted a splinter group.Hi MS,
BUt the bible has never taught that Jesus is or has ever been YHWH.
He never claimed to be the God of the Israelites.
He is YASHUA, the firstborn monogenes Son of God.Do you claim to know more that the bible reveals?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 04 2007,07:52) Hi MS,
BUt the bible has never taught that Jesus is or has ever been YHWH.
He never claimed to be the God of the Israelites.
He is YASHUA, the firstborn monogenes Son of God.Do you claim to know more that the bible reveals?
It's interpreting scripture that we differ on. Not that I am claiming to know more than the bible reveals.Let me demonstrate by using your words back on you:
The bible teaches that Jesus was YHWH the God of the Israelites. He is the firstborn monogenes Son of God the Most High.
Do you claim to know more than the bible reveals?
Quote Remember when Jacob wrestled God? He was wrestling YHWH the son of the Most High, the appointed elohim over Israel. I can concur with most of your statements with the exception of the above. Jesus made is clear that his Father was the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. John 8:54 says “…it is my Father that honoreth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God.” Jesus was emphatic that his Father sent him and that he came not of his own will but the will of the Father who sent him down from heaven. Consequently, it is a grave error to refer to Christ as Yahweh, Jehovah, or any of the Old Testament names which refer to God his Father. Many refer to Christ as God but fail to distinguish him from his Father who was greater than he by Christ's own admission. Jesus continually distinguished himself from his Father.
The parables of Christ which Jesus went to great length to reveal the truth of being responsible with what you have been given (talents) or they would be taken from you and given to those who have been responsible supports your view of Psalms 82. These parables are huge. A certain nobleman commits his talents to his servants and then goes into a far country to receive a kingdom and then returns to Judge his servants. When you consider that Christ taught very little on certain subjects that the church considers very important today such as marriage, family, receiving from God, etc., he emphasized being attentive to what God has given you to work with probably more than any other form of parable. Not just that we should be responsible, but the consequences for not being responsible, and the exaltation that awaits those who have been faithful over what God has given them. It's an absolute gold mine of truth. He also said that whosover would be chiefest among you would be servant of all. So the true gospel message should emphasize giving not receiving.
Take Care
Steven
Quote (Mr. Steve @ Dec. 04 2007,08:38) Quote Remember when Jacob wrestled God? He was wrestling YHWH the son of the Most High, the appointed elohim over Israel. I can concur with most of your statements with the exception of the above. Jesus made is clear that his Father was the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. John 8:54 says “…it is my Father that honoreth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God.” Jesus was emphatic that his Father sent him and that he came not of his own will but the will of the Father who sent him down from heaven. Consequently, it is a grave error to refer to Christ as Yahweh, Jehovah, or any of the Old Testament names which refer to God his Father. Many refer to Christ as God but fail to distinguish him from his Father who was greater than he by Christ's own admission. Jesus continually distinguished himself from his Father.
The parables of Christ which Jesus went to great length to reveal the truth of being responsible with what you have been given (talents) or they would be taken from you and given to those who have been responsible supports your view of Psalms 82. These parables are huge. A certain nobleman commits his talents to his servants and then goes into a far country to receive a kingdom and then returns to Judge his servants. When you consider that Christ taught very little on certain subjects that the church considers very important today such as marriage, family, receiving from God, etc., he emphasized being attentive to what God has given you to work with probably more than any other form of parable. Not just that we should be responsible, but the consequences for not being responsible, and the exaltation that awaits those who have been faithful over what God has given them. It's an absolute gold mine of truth. He also said that whosover would be chiefest among you would be servant of all. So the true gospel message should emphasize giving not receiving.
Take Care
Steven
You reference John 8. If you go back and read it, Jesus is declaring to the Jews that they “DONT KNOW THE FATHER”.
or how he operates.The Father El ELyon and the son YHWH operate as one unit.
All nations where supposed to have this unity of divine goverment, however, only the most high of the sons of El, The creator son, the unique firstborn monogenes son of El was a good shepherd who followed his Fathers will. The other sons did not.
So to answer your Question both El and YHWH were the Gods of Israel.
However, it was not until MOSES AT SINAI, the the son YHWH stepped in at his appointed time to establish his covenant with Israel.
So yes EL was the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. YHWH was the mediator who corresponded with them between El and the Patriarchs. Then later on Sinai he established his covenant with them.
Hi MS,
One unit? a Binity?Acts 10
” 38How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him. “The power was of God by the Spirit.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 04 2007,09:04) Hi MS,
One unit? a Binity?Acts 10
” 38How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him. “The power was of God by the Spirit.
No binity is like trinity except with only two members.They are distinct seperate beings but they share the same nature being Father and Son.
And yes the power was, is and always will be from God the Father by his spirit.
Hi MS,
But the Son was never revealed in scripture as the God of the Jews.
He was with God serving God as the monogenes Son.
He was not another deity to be worshiped.Is 42
“5Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:6I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;
7To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.
8I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.”
You make him a false god.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 04 2007,09:12) Hi MS,
But the Son was never revealed in scripture as the God of the Jews.
He was with God serving God as the monogenes Son.
He was not another deity to be worshiped.Is 42
“5Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:6I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;
7To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.
8I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.”
You make him a false god.
I do not.Jesus is the Lord who created all things via the power invested in him by his Father EL.
Jesus is the sole son of God who was not dethroned. (psalm 82)
He was lifted above all the other fallen sons. Jesus will not share his Father given glory with these fallen sons or with an idol.
In fact even these fallen sons must worship him.
Hebrews 1
6And again, when he brings the firstborn into the world, he says,
“Let all God’s angels worship him.”
7Of the angels he says,
“He makes his angels winds,
and his ministers a flame of fire.”8But of the Son he says,
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever,
the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom.
9You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;therefore God, your God, has anointed you
with the oil of gladness beyond your companions.”10And,
“You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning,
and the heavens are the work of your hands;
11they will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment,
12like a robe you will roll them up,
like a garment they will be changed.
But you are the same,
and your years will have no end.”When did he bring the Firstborn into the world officially?
?Well that verse is a direct quote from Deuteronomies “song of moses”.
The exact section I keep referencing demonstrating YHWH as the son of El who inherited the nation of Israel and stepped into that position when he established his covenant on Mt. Sinai.
Deuteronomy 32:8-9
8When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance,
when he divided mankind,
he fixed the borders of the peoples
according to the number of the sons of God.
9But the LORD’s portion is his people,
Jacob his allotted heritage.Here is the Hebrews quote source:
Deuteronomy 32: 43
43 “Rejoice with him, O heavens;
bow down to him, all gods,
for he avenges the blood of his children
and takes vengeance on his adversaries.
He repays those who hate him
and cleanses his people’s land.Hi MS,
The 'gods' spoken of in Ps 82 are identified by Jesus as men.
No scripture says all the other sons were evil and dethroned.
Jesus is not the creator God but was used of God in this work.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 04 2007,10:10) Hi MS,
The 'gods' spoken of in Ps 82 are identified by Jesus as men.
No scripture says all the other sons were evil and dethroned.
Jesus is not the creator God but was used of God in this work.
THIS IS NOT TALKING ABOUT MEN!Scholars know this. Those with religious agendas make up their own answers for this so that it does not mean the Fathers divine council of sons.
This is exactly who Jesus was saying he was. The Son given Israel as an inheritence.
The other sons of God (Jesus's Companions as declared in Hebrews chapter 1) were unfaithful and sentenced to die.
Psalm 82
Verses 1-5 God delivers his case against his disobedient sons who are not rightly ruling their allotted nations.
1 God presides over heaven’s court;
he pronounces judgment on the heavenly beings:
2 “How long will you hand down unjust decisions
by favoring the wicked?
3 “Give justice to the poor and the orphan;
uphold the rights of the oppressed and the destitute.
4 Rescue the poor and helpless;
deliver them from the grasp of evil people.
5 But these oppressors know nothing;
they are so ignorant!
They wander about in darkness,
while the whole world is shaken to the core.Verse 6 God calls the angels / sons of God / Elohim gods!
6 I say, ‘You are gods;
you are all children of the Most High.Verse 7 the sons of God are sentenced to death. Reminds me of Matthew 25:41
41″Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.7 But you will die like mere mortals
and fall like every other ruler.’”In verse 8 the only good Son, the only good shepherd, Jesus, who loved righteousness and was raised to a higher position than his companions, is instructed to rise up and inherit all the nations.
8 Rise up, O God, and judge the earth,
for all the nations belong to you.Comparison of John 10 and Psalm 82:
Jesus reply in Jn 10 makes far more sense if he is referring to
divine beings, because he is making the claim that he himself is divine.If he was merely referring to human judges, then he is simply calling himself a man. I don't think this is what the Gospel is trying to say. On the contrary, it is making the claim that Jesus is God.
Then what purpose does it serve to say that the “gods” (presuming they are men here) would die like mere men if they were always going to die as mere men? If it was always going to be the case, then why say “like mere men”?
No, in the case of Ps 82, the gods of the divine council are condemned to die like mere men because they fail to govern the earth properly. No one expects the gods to die as mere men, so their condemnation to die as mere men is quite telling. This Psalms calls for an end to henotheism with its national deities each ruling a particular domain, and calls for a new monotheism in which a single deity governs the entire earth. Notice that the scope isn't simply national Israel, but universal. The gods of the nations — not the judges of Israel — have failed to govern the world. Therefore God must needs sack this cabinet and assume autocratic control himself.
He gives all authority to the one son (son of God / Elohim) that is righteous and hated wickedness. Jesus!
Also, scholars KNOW that gensis 6:4 is talking about these sons of God as angelic-type beings coming to earth and creating hybrids, giants.
Hi MS,
I have little faith in scholars and human opinions.God did not send Jesus with a hidden gospel to be found only by the clever as the trinity and binity proponents claim.
He taught simple things to children and spoke plainly especially about such vain men.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 04 2007,10:16) Hi MS,
I have little faith in scholars and human opinions.God did not send Jesus with a hidden gospel to be found only by the clever as the trinity and binity proponents claim.
He taught simple things to children and spoke plainly especially about such vain men.
I agree, except I do think modern scolarship has gone along way. It disproves the trinity for one.I don't think Jesus has a hidden gospel. I think Jesus spoke in parables at times though and not straight forward dialogue.
The early christians of the 1st century did not get confused over this issue.
Jesus is Lord!!!! the earliest christian creed.
They knew son of God who inherited (no longer just Israel) the whole world.
They Knew the Father was the MOST HIGH over his son YHWH.
Even the greek gentiles understood this at first.
They acknowledge he Father DOES NOT OFFICIALLY HAVE A NAME rather only titles. The son YHWH is JESUS.
Justin Martyr (c. 100 – 165 A.D.)
“To the Father of all, who is unbegotten, no name is given; for anyone who has been given a name has received the name from someone older than himself. Father and God and Creator and Lord and Master are not names but appellations derived form His beneficences and works. His Son, who alone is properly called Son, who was BOTH WITH HIM AND WAS BEGOTTEN BY HIM BEFORE ANYTHING WAS CREATED, when in the beginning the Father created and put everything in order through Him — He is called Christ, from His being anointed….”
(Second Apology 6; Jurgens, p. 57)
“Although the Jews were always of the opinion that it was the Father of all who had spoken to Moses, IT WAS IN FACT THE SON OF GOD, who is called both Angel and Apostle, who spoke to him; they are, therefore, justly accused by both the PROPHETIC SPIRIT AND BY CHRIST HIMSELF of knowing neither the Father nor the Son. They who assert that the Son is the Father are proved to know neither the Father, nor that the Father of all has a Son, who is both the first-born Word of God AND IS GOD [John 1:1].”
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