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Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 03 2007,12:30) Hi MS,
So the firstborn son was another God to be worshipped with God?
They seemed to know only ONE GOD.
Jesus identified their God as the Father.Jn 8.54
” 54Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God: “
Good passage nick, here it is in more context.19Then they asked him, “Where is your father?”
“You do not know me or my Father,” Jesus replied. “If you knew me, you would know my Father also.” 20He spoke these words while teaching in the temple area near the place where the offerings were put. Yet no one seized him, because his time had not yet come.
21Once more Jesus said to them, “I am going away, and you will look for me, and you will die in your sin. Where I go, you cannot come.”
22This made the Jews ask, “Will he kill himself? Is that why he says, 'Where I go, you cannot come'?”
23But he continued, “You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. 24I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be,[a] you will indeed die in your sins.”
25″Who are you?” they asked.
“Just what I have been claiming all along,” Jesus replied. 26″I have much to say in judgment of you. But he who sent me is reliable, and what I have heard from him I tell the world.”
27They did not understand that he was telling them about his Father. 28So Jesus said, “When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am the one I claim to be and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me. 29The one who sent me is with me; he has not left me alone, for I always do what pleases him.” 30Even as he spoke, many put their faith in him.
The Children of Abraham
31To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. 32Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”
33They answered him, “We are Abraham's descendants[b] and have never been slaves of anyone. How can you say that we shall be set free?”34Jesus replied, “I tell you the truth, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. 35Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever. 36So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. 37I know you are Abraham's descendants. Yet you are ready to kill me, because you have no room for my word. 38I am telling you what I have seen in the Father's presence, and you do what you have heard from your father.[c]”
39″Abraham is our father,” they answered.
“If you were Abraham's children,” said Jesus, “then you would[d] do the things Abraham did. 40As it is, you are determined to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham did not do such things. 41You are doing the things your own father does.”
“We are not illegitimate children,” they protested. “The only Father we have is God himself.”The Children of the Devil
42Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me. 43Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. 44You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! 46Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don't you believe me? 47He who belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.”
The Claims of Jesus About Himself
48The Jews answered him, “Aren't we right in saying that you are a Samaritan and demon-possessed?”
49″I am not possessed by a demon,” said Jesus, “but I honor my Father and you dishonor me. 50I am not seeking glory for myself; but there is one who seeks it, and he is the judge. 51I tell you the truth, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death.”52At this the Jews exclaimed, “Now we know that you are demon-possessed! Abraham died and so did the prophets, yet you say that if anyone keeps your word, he will never taste death. 53Are you greater than our father Abraham? He died, and so did the prophets. Who do you think you are?”
54Jesus replied, “If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me. 55Though you do not know him, I know him. If I said I did not, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and keep his word. 56Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.”
57″You are not yet fifty years old,” the Jews said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!”
58″I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!” 59At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.
Jesus is clearly saying the Jews don't know what they are talking about.
The Jews were trying to merge the Father El and the son YHWH.
Jesus was correcting them.
Jesus is the “I AM”.
Hi MS,
You speak as if you do know, but present no evidence there were two gods of Israel and the Son was called YHWH. Show us from the bible PLEASE.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 03 2007,12:36) Hi MS,
You speak as if you do know, but present no evidence there were two gods of Israel and the Son was called YHWH. Show us from the bible PLEASE.
Nick,Over the last 3 pages are many many verses, demonstrating my view.
I think you glossed over them.
address them first.
Hi MS,
Did Jesus ever say he was called I AM?
Or did he say he was before Abraham, and all men as we know he was.
Did he ever teach that he was a God to be worshipped as well as God?Jn4
“21Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.22Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
23But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
24God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.”
What really tops it off is archaeology backs me up.
Even the gnostics understood this, except they thought YHWH was evil. They Thought Jesus was a new son recently arrived on the scene replacing YHWH and the other sons. They believed many other errors as well, but they clearly demonstrate a belief in the division i am discussing.
The early church Fathers, well I should say the very earliest. Like Justin Martyr, taught something very simular. Even using the same passage in dueteronomy.
Archaeology reveals tablets declaring YHWH a son of the most high El.
Hi MS,
Why stop at worshipping two GODS?
God said to Moses He was the God of the Fathers.
If that was Jesus then why did he draw attention to Himself and not the Father, whom he called his God? [Jn20.20]?
On earth Jesus always ascribed all glory and power to his Father.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 03 2007,12:39) Hi MS,
Did Jesus ever say he was called I AM?
Or did he say he was before Abraham, and all men as we know he was.
Did he ever teach that he was a God to be worshipped as well as God?Jn4
“21Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.22Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
23But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
24God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.”
I can't say that he demanded to be worshipped, he pointed to his Father.But, he is shown as being worshipped. Which pleased the Father. Let all the angels worship him is one example.
Jesus is the alpha and omega in revelation and is worshipped their as well.
Primarily, I feel because the jews were trying to be rid of and hide the father Jesus was correcting this and pointing to the Father. You see the most evidence of this in the changes found in the masoretic text from the septuagint.
Which btw the septuagint was the apostles bible. Paul is telling timothy about the septuagint in II Timothy 3:16
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 03 2007,12:45) Hi MS,
Why stop at worshipping two GODS?
God said to Moses He was the God of the Fathers.
If that was Jesus then why did he draw attention to Himself and not the Father, whom he called his God? [Jn20.20]?
On earth Jesus always ascribed all glory and power to his Father.
Because I use context and read for intent.I don't take a word like elohim or god and make that the Fathers personal title or name.
I look at the scriptures as a whole for answers. As do you.
Hi MS,
You seem to place Jesus, if you believe he is YHWH, in the same light ascribing to himself ALONE the role of God to the Jews, in Ex3. Would the humble servant son do this?Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 03 2007,12:49) Hi MS,
You seem to place Jesus, if you believe he is YHWH, in the same light ascribing to himself ALONE the role of God to the Jews, in Ex3. Would the humble servant son do this?
I don't think he was alone. The Jews worshipped El and YHWH.REad of the meeting between Melchezidek (sp?) and Abraham.
Abraham followed YHWH.
Melchezidek followed El directly.
YHWH is the MOST HIGH of all the HOST.
EL is the MOST HIGH over ALL above YHWH.
Father
Son
other heavenly beings.a Divine tier.
Hi MS,
So was there a dual worship system with separate temples for the two Gods?
It seems that the one speaking with Moses was pushing his case at the expense of the One he said was greater.
NaahHi MS,
God is ONE.
Mt 19
” 16And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?17And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: “
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 03 2007,13:03) Hi MS,
So was there a dual worship system with separate temples for the two Gods?
It seems that the one speaking with Moses was pushing his case at the expense of the One he said was greater.
Naah
No they didnt have two temples.They worshipped “their elohim” (or their appointed god) YHWH
and they Worshipped El the Most High.
they werent allowed to worship the other elohim of the other nations. who were appointed by the Father El, but had been poor stewards of their nations.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 03 2007,13:06) Hi MS,
God is ONE.
Mt 19
” 16And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?17And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: “
I agree with this. dont know where you were going with it.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 03 2007,13:37) Hi MS,
ONE GOD
The God of Yahshua.
Hi Nick,One True Eternal God
One appointed begotten God over Israel who Inherited all NationsHebrews 1
9You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
by anointing you with the oil of joy.”Two powers operating as one over creation.
The unbegetton ever existing eternal omnipoten Father El Elyon.
and
His firstborn, begotten, Son, YHWH, who was appointed over Israel. He loved righteousness and was the only good steward of his nation. The other sons where sentenced to death (psalm 82) and Jesus the good shepherd inherited all nations usurping their power. As Jesus identified himself in John 10.
No longer is the earth governed under a divine council of sons (gods) under an omnipotent Father (God).
Now The Father (El) rules by only one mediator. Directly through the regency of his firstborn and only faithful son, Jesus (YHWH).
Quote (Morningstar @ Dec. 03 2007,13:40) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 03 2007,13:37) Hi MS,
ONE GOD
The God of Yahshua.
Hi Nick,One True Eternal God
One appointed begotten God over Israel who Inherited all NationsHebrews 1
9You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
by anointing you with the oil of joy.”
Hi MS,
So God has appointed Jesus to the highest rank
UNDER GODQuote (Morningstar @ Dec. 03 2007,13:50) Two powers operating as one over creation. The unbegetton ever existing eternal omnipoten Father El Elyon.
and
His firstborn, begotten, Son, YHWH, who was appointed over Israel. He loved righteousness and was the only good steward of his nation. The other sons where sentenced to death (psalm 82) and Jesus the good shepherd inherited all nations usurping their power. As Jesus identified himself in John 10.
No longer is the earth governed under a divine council of sons (gods) under an omnipotent Father (God).
Now The Father (El) rules by only one mediator. Directly through the regency of his firstborn and only faithful son, Jesus (YHWH).
Hi MS,
Another new gospel of strange gods?
Serve the God of Israel and of Jesus, the Father.
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