- This topic has 18,301 replies, 269 voices, and was last updated 1 year, 5 months ago by
.
- Posts
Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Dec. 01 2007,02:30) WJ, First, I am not MRS IM4Truth!
Second, Is1:18 did not answer the question that I asked. I am asking if you can. Here it is again:
During this “separation”, were they, Father and Son, still One Being? If so, how were they “separated”?
One further clarification as well, (if you presume that Is1:18 sufficiently answered the previous question):
How can One Being “[disengage] the intimate communion” within itself? Can your foot cease to have communion with the rest of your body without being amputated?
Look forward to you actually responding to the questions I have posed!
Sorry for calling you Mrs.Thought it was a question that Mrs had asked.
First of all, you are answering a question with a question.
My question contains the answer to your question.
Can you give me one example of the Father or Yeshua or the Spirit acting apart from the other two.
There is no disparity in the ontological nature of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.
You are the one making the seperation. There never was a “seperation” of the Father and the Son.
Jesus said that he was in the Father and the Father was in him. The Father never left Yeshua neither did Yeshua exit or cease to be in the Father.
Yeshua, in his agony quoted the Psalmist…
Ps 22:1
1 My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?Simply put, Yeshuas cry was not a declaration of the Father leaving him Spiritually, but it is the cry of one whos father chooses not to help or deliver when his son is in distress or trouble, in this case to make him a sin offering for us.
Blessings.
Quote (IM4Truth @ Dec. 01 2007,08:31) W.J. Poor you. 3 people to have to answer to. Good luck you are going to need it. The trinity is not bibical. You can't explain it. It is a mystery according to the Cath. Church. 915 pages and still going strong, Oh, boy, oh boy that is all I can say.
Epuesians 4:4-6 explains it all, why in the world do you want to hang unto something that first of all you can not prove and second of all, it was invented by a man named
QUINTUS SEPTIMUS FLORENS TERTULLIAN.
Why don't you look Him up on google.Peace and Love Mrs.
Poor Me!!!
I am not a Catholic and never was and never will be.
I also dont follow “Tertullian”, I have spent 33 years of my life serving Yeshua and not a man. My scriptural knowledge comes from the scriptures by the Holy Spirit.
But of course you will claim the same.
As far as “Tertullian” being the “inventor” of the “Trinity”, are you sure of that?
Did you learn that form the WWC?
Many church Fathers called Jesus God before “Tertullians” existence.
For instance…
Ignatius
Ignatius died in 110 AD. He was a disciple of the Apostle John and was the bishop of Antioch. He was martyred in Rome only 10 years after John died. Ignatius is as close to the source as you can get. He had several interesting quotes concerning the Trinity doctrine:“Be deaf, therefore, when any would speak to you apart from Jesus Christ, who was descended from the family of David, born of Mary, who truly was born, truly took a body; for the Word became flesh and dwelt among us without sin”
Ignatius also wrote about Jesus’ second coming:
“Look for him that is above the times, him who has not times, him who is invisible”.
He believed that only God is was timeless and in his letter to Polycarp, Ignatius stated, “Jesus is God, God incarnate.”
Ignatius also identified Jesus apart from the Father and the Holy Spirit by saying,
“In Christ Jesus our Lord, by whom and with whom be glory and power to the Father with the Holy Spirit for ever”.
He also believed Jesus was fully God and fully man. He clarified this by saying,
“We have also as a Physician the Lord our God Jesus the Christ the only-begotten Son and Word, before time began, but who afterwards became also man, of Mary the virgin. For ‘the Word was made flesh.' Being incorporeal, He was in the body; being impassible, He was in a passible body; being immortal, He was in a mortal body; being life, He became subject to corruption, that He might free our souls from death and corruption, and heal them, and might restore them to health, when they were diseased with ungodliness and wicked lusts.” ( The ante-nicene Fathers, Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, Vol. 1, p. 52 .)
He clarifies this further in one of his epistles to the church in Ephesus:
“…God Himself appearing in the form of a man, for the renewal of eternal life.”( Epistle of Ignatius to the Ephesians 4:13)
Also in this epistle, Ignatius again identifies Jesus as God while identifying His personhood:
“For our God Jesus Christ, was, according to the appointment of God, conceived in the womb by Mary, of the seed of David, but by the Holy Ghost.” ( Epistle of Ignatius to the Ephesians 4:9)
In his letter to the Trallians, Ignatius refers to Jesus as God and being distinguished from the Father:
( Epistle of Ignatius to the Trallians 2:4)
“For even our God, Jesus Christ, now that He is in the Father”.These writings are over 200 years before the Council of Nicaea. He wrote during and very shortly after the life of the Apostle John who was called the beloved of Jesus.
You should really study your Church History.
Blessings!.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 01 2007,11:13) Quote (IM4Truth @ Dec. 01 2007,08:31) W.J. Poor you. 3 people to have to answer to. Good luck you are going to need it. The trinity is not bibical. You can't explain it. It is a mystery according to the Cath. Church. 915 pages and still going strong, Oh, boy, oh boy that is all I can say.
Epuesians 4:4-6 explains it all, why in the world do you want to hang unto something that first of all you can not prove and second of all, it was invented by a man named
QUINTUS SEPTIMUS FLORENS TERTULLIAN.
Why don't you look Him up on google.Peace and Love Mrs.
Poor Me!!! I am not a Catholic and never was and never will be.
I also dont follow “Tertullian”, I have spent 33 years of my life serving Yeshua and not a man. My scriptural knowledge comes from the scriptures by the Holy Spirit.
But of course you will claim the same.
As far as “Tertullian” being the “inventor” of the “Trinity”, are you sure of that?
Did you learn that form the WWC?
Many church Fathers called Jesus God before “Tertullians” existence.
For instance…
Ignatius
Ignatius died in 110 AD. He was a disciple of the Apostle John and was the bishop of Antioch. He was martyred in Rome only 10 years after John died. Ignatius is as close to the source as you can get. He had several interesting quotes concerning the Trinity doctrine:“Be deaf, therefore, when any would speak to you apart from Jesus Christ, who was descended from the family of David, born of Mary, who truly was born, truly took a body; for the Word became flesh and dwelt among us without sin”
Ignatius also wrote about Jesus’ second coming:
“Look for him that is above the times, him who has not times, him who is invisible”.
He believed that only God is was timeless and in his letter to Polycarp, Ignatius stated, “Jesus is God, God incarnate.”
Ignatius also identified Jesus apart from the Father and the Holy Spirit by saying,
“In Christ Jesus our Lord, by whom and with whom be glory and power to the Father with the Holy Spirit for ever”.
He also believed Jesus was fully God and fully man. He clarified this by saying,
“We have also as a Physician the Lord our God Jesus the Christ the only-begotten Son and Word, before time began, but who afterwards became also man, of Mary the virgin. For ‘the Word was made flesh.' Being incorporeal, He was in the body; being impassible, He was in a passible body; being immortal, He was in a mortal body; being life, He became subject to corruption, that He might free our souls from death and corruption, and heal them, and might restore them to health, when they were diseased with ungodliness and wicked lusts.” ( The ante-nicene Fathers, Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, Vol. 1, p. 52 .)
He clarifies this further in one of his epistles to the church in Ephesus:
“…God Himself appearing in the form of a man, for the renewal of eternal life.”( Epistle of Ignatius to the Ephesians 4:13)
Also in this epistle, Ignatius again identifies Jesus as God while identifying His personhood:
“For our God Jesus Christ, was, according to the appointment of God, conceived in the womb by Mary, of the seed of David, but by the Holy Ghost.” ( Epistle of Ignatius to the Ephesians 4:9)
In his letter to the Trallians, Ignatius refers to Jesus as God and being distinguished from the Father:
( Epistle of Ignatius to the Trallians 2:4)
“For even our God, Jesus Christ, now that He is in the Father”.These writings are over 200 years before the Council of Nicaea. He wrote during and very shortly after the life of the Apostle John who was called the beloved of Jesus.
You should really study your Church History.
Blessings!.
Because Jesus is YHWH the son of El.The trinity isn't true, but Jesus is God!
Christians just can't admit that God has a God.
Deuteronomy 32
8When the Most High (El Elyon) gave to the nations their inheritance,
when he divided mankind,
he fixed the borders of the peoples
according to the number of the sons of God (El).
9But the LORD’s (YHWH) portion is his people,
Jacob his allotted heritage.YHWH the God who is the son of the most high inherited Israel from his Father the MOST HIGH GOD.
Hebrews 1
8But of the Son he says,
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever,
the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom.
9You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;therefore God, your God, has anointed you
with the oil of gladness beyond your companions.”The other sons of God (Jesus's Companions) were unfaithful and sentenced to die.
Psalm 82
Verses 1-5 God delivers his case against his disobedient sons who are not rightly ruling their allotted nations.
1 God presides over heaven’s court;
he pronounces judgment on the heavenly beings:
2 “How long will you hand down unjust decisions
by favoring the wicked?
3 “Give justice to the poor and the orphan;
uphold the rights of the oppressed and the destitute.
4 Rescue the poor and helpless;
deliver them from the grasp of evil people.
5 But these oppressors know nothing;
they are so ignorant!
They wander about in darkness,
while the whole world is shaken to the core.Verse 6 God calls the angels / sons of God / Elohim gods!
6 I say, ‘You are gods;
you are all children of the Most High.Verse 7 the sons of God are sentenced to death. Reminds me of Matthew 25:41
41″Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.7 But you will die like mere mortals
and fall like every other ruler.’”In verse 8 the only good Son, the only good shepherd, Jesus, who loved righteousness and was raised to a higher position than his companions, is instructed to rise up and inherit all the nations.
8 Rise up, O God, and judge the earth,
for all the nations belong to you.
Comparison of John 10 and Psalm 82:Jesus reply in Jn 10 makes far more sense if he is referring to
divine beings, because he is making the claim that he himself is divine. If he was merely referring to human judges, then he is simply calling himself a man. I don't think this is what the Gospel is trying to say. On the contrary, it is making the claim that Jesus is God.Then what purpose does it serve to say that the “gods” (presuming they are men here) would die like mere men if they were always going to die as mere m
en? If it was always going to be the case, then why say “like mere men”?No, in the case of Ps 82, the gods of the divine council are condemned to die like mere men because they fail to govern the earth properly. No one expects the gods to die as mere men, so their condemnation to die as mere men is quite telling. This Psalms calls for an end to henotheism with its national deities each ruling a particular domain, and calls for a new monotheism in which a single deity governs the entire earth. Notice that the scope isn't simply national Israel, but universal. The gods of the nations — not the judges of Israel — have failed to govern the world. Therefore God must needs sack this cabinet and assume autocratic control himself.
He gives all authority to the one son (son of God / Elohim) that is righteous and hated wickedness. Jesus!
I love all of you in Christ. But, it saddens me greatly that the higher critics and athiests understand scripture more than believers. They don't believe what the scriptures say, but they understand what they are saying.
Most of this boils down to the Myth of Montheism as it is understood by the modern world.
YES, there is only ONE eternal immortal God, The Father. That is biblical monotheism.
However, this ONE God decided to govern earth through his sons. This is henotheism.
It is not an either / or situation here it is both.
Morning
You said…
Quote
Because Jesus is YHWH the son of El.The trinity isn't true, but Jesus is God!
Christians just can't admit that God has a God.
Yes of course the trinity is not true because you say so.
We have already been aroung this mountain before. God is not a “Polytheist”, there is only one true God.
The Father calls Yeshua God. Heb 1:8. Yeshua calls the Father God. The Spirit is God.
1 Jn 5:20
And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
Morning
You said…
Quote
I love all of you in Christ. But, it saddens me greatly that the higher critics and athiests understand scripture more than believers. They don't believe what the scriptures say, but they understand what they are saying.It saddens me that you think you have “the truth” for over 900 pages and nobody else here does!
Are you following the higher critics and the atheist now?
Hi WJ,
So the Son was never a true son?
Was he always an aspect of his Father?
Are all of the sons of God part of God?Hi WJ,
You say
“Jesus said that he was in the Father and the Father was in him. The Father never left Yeshua neither did Yeshua exit or cease to be in the Father.”WAS or IS?
WJ. You quote from Ephesian but you don't see what it says in Ephesian 4:4-6. Since the trinity Doctrine says that the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit is equal with each other, those scriptures would contradict what the trinity doctrine is all about. The Father is greater then I and many other. No W.J. with that you have no leg to stand on, no matter how hard you try here.
As far as Bible History is concerned I did not get that out of my mind about Tertuillian. It is History. Just look it up. The first Christians were not even aloud to openly worship and nobody discussed about the trinity. It was not until Constantine came on the scene, and everything changed. From Sabbath into Sunday, all the Holy Days like X-mas and Easter were instituted. All Babylonian Holy Days.
So sad.
Peace and Love Mrs. Hi WJ,
You quote
“Ps 22:1
1 My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?”
Sounds like a man calling on his God does it not?Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 01 2007,13:46) Morning You said…
Quote
I love all of you in Christ. But, it saddens me greatly that the higher critics and athiests understand scripture more than believers. They don't believe what the scriptures say, but they understand what they are saying.It saddens me that you think you have “the truth” for over 900 pages and nobody else here does!
Are you following the higher critics and the atheist now?
I came to these conclusions myself by reading the bible, the early church fathers and the apocrypha.Then I read what the higher critics say and discovered I agreed with them concerning the identity of Jesus as portrayed in the new testament.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 01 2007,13:36) Morning You said…
Quote
Because Jesus is YHWH the son of El.The trinity isn't true, but Jesus is God!
Christians just can't admit that God has a God.
Yes of course the trinity is not true because you say so.
We have already been aroung this mountain before. God is not a “Polytheist”, there is only one true God.
The Father calls Yeshua God. Heb 1:8. Yeshua calls the Father God. The Spirit is God.
1 Jn 5:20
And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
It has been said that you can prove just about any doctrine under the sun from the Bible by just taking a verse out of its context. Such is case when Trinitarians use 1 John 5:20 to support the doctrine of the Trinity. However, if we expand the context, the careful reader will see that it is not Jesus Christ who is being referred to as “the true God.”Starting in verse 1 John 5:2, we read…
For this is the love of God….
Then in verse 4…
For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world…
Verse 9…
If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater…
Verse 10…
…he that believeth not God hath made Him a liar…
Verse 11…
…God hath given to us eternal life,
Verse 15…
…we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him (referring to God).
Verse 18…
We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not…
Verse 19…
And we know that we are of God,…
Although admittedly the Son of God is mentioned a few times in 1 John 5, it is God that is mentioned more often. God and His attributes, and our relationship to God, is the interweaving thread throughout 1 John 5. All these truths concerning God when put together causes John to summarize, “This is the true God, and eternal life.”
The reader should also step back and notice that Jesus is referred to as “the Son of God” in verses 10, 12 and 13. To say the least, it would be a total surprise for John, out of the blue, to declare that Jesus is God in verse 20 in light of the fact that Jesus is repeatedly referred to as the SON of God, and never as God in John's epistle.
1 John 5:20 reminds us of Jesus' prayer according to John 17:3: 'This is eternal life: to know you the only true God and Jesus Christ whom you have sent…'
However, WJ even if the above apology is in correct. I fully acknowledge Jesus as God.
I just also believe God has a God.
Yes the one who is true in this verse is God and the eternal life is Jesus.
In case of confusion we only need to look at other scriptures that talk of the same thing and we have our answer.
Good post.
WJ is it safe to say that:
The Father is God
His Son is God because He was born after His kind
And of course the Holy Spirit is their Spirit
Ummm , so I'm completely new to this but you guys seem to really know your scripture.
So I was wondering if you could perhaps answer my question
People often say that the Trinity is false because Jesus is in subjection to God and therefore not equal to God and therefore debunk the whole Trinity Doctrine
As the doctrine states that Jesus and God are co-equal.
I was wondering, what if like Man and Woman
Jesus and God are the sameAllow me to explain a bit, 1 Corinthians 11:3 says “Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.”- NIV
A woman is in subjection to a man, but is she not equal to a man?
We are all people right? So children are equal to their parents but in subjection to them.
So could it not be that Jesus is in Subjection to the Father but still equal to him?
I do not feel like revealing whether I am a Trinitarian or not, I simply wanted to pose a question.
How would a non-Trinitarian respond to this?
Jesus is in subjection to God but is equal to God
just as Woman is in subjection to Man but equal because she is a human being.I would like to apologize if you were all focused on a specific topic
I found it a very daunting task to read all 900+ pages and gave up after about 3……..So if you have already answered my question in a previous post,
could you please post it again, for the sake of time and sanity.-Thank you.
Quote (Searching @ Dec. 02 2007,01:14) Ummm , so I'm completely new to this but you guys seem to really know your scripture. So I was wondering if you could perhaps answer my question
People often say that the Trinity is false because Jesus is in subjection to God and therefore not equal to God and therefore debunk the whole Trinity Doctrine
As the doctrine states that Jesus and God are co-equal.
I was wondering, what if like Man and Woman
Jesus and God are the sameAllow me to explain a bit, 1 Corinthians 11:3 says “Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.”- NIV
A woman is in subjection to a man, but is she not equal to a man?
We are all people right? So children are equal to their parents but in subjection to them.
So could it not be that Jesus is in Subjection to the Father but still equal to him?
I do not feel like revealing whether I am a Trinitarian or not, I simply wanted to pose a question.
How would a non-Trinitarian respond to this?
Jesus is in subjection to God but is equal to God
just as Woman is in subjection to Man but equal because she is a human being.
That's a good analogy Searching.Heb 1:8 But of the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom.
Heb 1:9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness beyond your companions.”The Father is not three. The Father has a Son who is after His own kind GOD. The Father calls The Son God or can anyone deny the above scripture?
The Father and Son have the same Spirit. Because the Son is OF the Father, NOT the Father.
And so as you say the woman is of man. But as scripture declares that the woman IS NOT EQUAL to him.
Being Human they are one!
Thanks!
Ken
I hope I can get some more opinions on this.
Thanks for the reply Kenrch
Hi Searching,
Trinity is not true because it is not written.
God wrote through men what was true.
Trinity is not written.Jesus is the Son of God.
The Father is greater than the Son.
The Son can do nothing except by the Father.
The Son was anointed with the Spirit of God in power and grace.
Thus he revealed the nature and power of God as a vessel for God as Spirit in him.Quote (Searching @ Dec. 02 2007,01:14) Ummm , so I'm completely new to this but you guys seem to really know your scripture. So I was wondering if you could perhaps answer my question
People often say that the Trinity is false because Jesus is in subjection to God and therefore not equal to God and therefore debunk the whole Trinity Doctrine
As the doctrine states that Jesus and God are co-equal.
I was wondering, what if like Man and Woman
Jesus and God are the sameAllow me to explain a bit, 1 Corinthians 11:3 says “Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.”- NIV
A woman is in subjection to a man, but is she not equal to a man?
We are all people right? So children are equal to their parents but in subjection to them.
So could it not be that Jesus is in Subjection to the Father but still equal to him?
I do not feel like revealing whether I am a Trinitarian or not, I simply wanted to pose a question.
How would a non-Trinitarian respond to this?
Jesus is in subjection to God but is equal to God
just as Woman is in subjection to Man but equal because she is a human being.
I would agree with your analogy.Col 1
15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
18And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
19For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
20And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
Christ is the IMAGE of the invisible God. He IS NOT the invisible God but is a perfect REFLECTION OF HIM.
John 14
6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
7If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
You can know the Father by looking to his son who like a ray from the sun displays the true light from the true and eternal source. Very God of God and Light of Light. (from the apostles creed)
John 1
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2The same was in the beginning with God.
God was with God in the beginning. The son was with the Father. Both were divine and of the same substance (as trinitarians say). El and YHWH. The MOST HIGH and the FIRSTBORN.
Phil 2
5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus,
6who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
7but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.
Even when he was equal to the Father he did not think it something to be grasped or maintained. He is even seen as subordinate before his incarnation not just after it. He is always subject to the Father.
I Corinthians
27For HE HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET But when He says, “All things are put in subjection,” it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him.
28When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.
All things are subject to the Son EXCEPT THE FATHER. At the end of the age all things will be returned to the Father.
Revelation 21
1And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
6And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
7He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
At the end of this age, The Father will actually dwell with us. He will be our God and we his Sons. Just like Christ. WE WILL BE EQUAL TO CHRIST. BROTHERS!!! The Father will dwell with his family.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
