The Trinity Doctrine

[IM4Truth]

Timothy We did have, in fact my Husband used to work for a Jewish Bakery and so did I. Our Son bought the Business when the owner died. Let me tell you , very interesting People.
Will never forget when I was cleaning out the Showcases which were pretty dirty. I was using an S.O.S. Pad, when the Rabbi came in. He told me what I was doing. He told me I was not aloud to use the S.O.S.Pad. I told Him I am not going to eat it. They have very strict rules. We owed our own Bakery on the other side of the City, and I am glad the Inspector is not Jewish. I had some real run in with those Inspectors about some ridiculous rules. I just told Him ,well as soon as you leave the coffee sticks come out again. Everything needs to be wrapped up and our costumers did not like that. We had loose ones and He knew it, just turned around and walked out. When I think back of all the things I did when we were in Business, it was fun. But the Jewish Business no thank you. Going out to eat with a Jewish Person is also fun. You have to go only to their People who are Kosher. I could not bring in Mc. Donalds into the Bakery and eat it, either. If the Rabbi or any other Jew would see it they would not come buy from you again. So much for that.
One more thing, what does scriptures tell us who Anti-Christ is. The one that does not belief that Jesus came in the flesh. I should not tell Him what my beliefs are? I was responding to His post and He was not holding back at all. I just told Him how I feel. I belief He is only here to cause us trouble, not to learn or fellowship. Right from the beginning of His first post I noticed that. I belief I am not the only person that thinks so.
Peace and Love Mrs.

[IM4Truth]

Quote

Group: Members Posts: 429 Joined: July 2007 Posted: Nov. 03 2007,11:24 ——————————————————————————– To all: With respect to the Trinity it is espoused the Jesus is not just the Son of God, but God himself. The lord gave us an insight on this issue. If God were to come himself would he represent himself as God, or if God sent someone that he wanted to appear as God would he want us to know it was God or believe that God was present in some manner himself? In the Old Testament, the Bible says in Genesis that the Lord appeared to Abraham and spake to him on numerous occasions. So God visited Abraham representing that he was God. The Lord spoke to Adam and represented that he was the Lord. The Lord appeared in some manner to Noah and told him to build an ark. The point is that if the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob wanted us to believe that he was coming to us himself he would have done so as he did throughout the Old Testament. When he sent his Son into the World, he did not go himself, he sent his Son in his name, or in the authority of his Father. When a Son is sent in the name of his Father, the truth conveyed is that he is not the one that sent him, but that he has come on behalf of someone else. When Christ was sent, he came on behalf of his Father, and spoke the words of his Father. The distinction between the Father and the Son is maintained throughout the New Testament, by Christ and the Apostles. So when a person espouses that the Word that was sent was not actually the person of the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, as John the Baptist proclaims and bears record, you can know for certain that he pre-existed. No one was ever sent that did not exist first with the person by whom they were sent. That is the essence of being sent in Judeo history. The birthright is given to the first born. All power is given to the first-born. Christ was identified as the first-born with many sons to follow. Remember, all things were made by “him” and without him was not anything made that was made. He was there in the beginning, but unrevealed until the fullness of times. It's interesting that when they asked Jesus where he was from, he never mentioned Mary or the whole story of the immaculate conception. He barely gives any recognition to his mother at all. In John, the only two times he refers to her, he calls her woman, not even his mother. The only truth with respect to his origin was that he was from above and was returning to where he was before. It's very clear. For those who do not believe he was there prior, but only in foreknowledge, where is he returning to, a thought in the mind of God? Is he returning to a non-existent state as the non-pre-existent Son of God? If that were true then he no longer exists as the Son of God. Incidentally, there are some trinitarians who hold Christ was God, but did not pre-exist as the Son of God, but only as God. So if Christ was God, then they must also hold that Christ, who was returning to where he came from, no longer exists as the Son of God, but only as God. This holding of course is scripturally defective as any person, whether in Christ or not, would see is non-sensical. So Christ had to of pre-existed as the Son of God or what he taught made no sense. Take care

Thank you Steven very nice Post. Everything you say, I belief too.

Peace and Love Mrs.

[Morningstar]

Please seriously give this serious thought. I feel that terminology really hinders alot of the discussion on this thread. I would like to share my view which is the very of the first and second generation of Christians.

My view and the early Christian view.

We believe in a trinity BUT NOT the Trinity doctrine of today. The early Christians even used the word trinity BUT NOT what it means today.

The Difference between the terminology of the titles God and Godhead.

God when discussing the Father = Most High only eternal TRUE God. The Source and Power of all things.

God when discussing Jesus = the divine begotten son who shares the very same nature as the Father, but is not the eternal TRUE God but is his firstborn. Jesus was the instrument of Creation the Father used. Jesus is God by nature being of the same substance of divinity but he is not a multiple personality of a triune God. He is the Son of God who revealed his Father to men both in the Old and New Testaments.

Godhead =the administration of the office we call God. Not discussing a person but a hierarchy of administration. God communes with man through his Son as a conduit for his Holy Spirit. This is what the early Christians talked about when they used the term Trinity. (look it up) This is how the Godhead works as a trinity. But God IS NOT a trinity.

God is a title Shared by the Most High and his firstborn and only begotten Son. Two beings of the same nature, like Father like Son. One unbegotten and eternal (the Father) one begotten in the exact image of the unbegotten (the son).

Godhead is a title of the office of God. No longer a divine council as describe in the Old Testament. The Most High only operates through one Son the other principalities and powers fell. The Father works through his Son to share his Spirit. The Trinity is a term of administration describing the Godhead not a definition of the nature of God as a being.

The Father only operates through his one Good Son who loved righteousness and hated wickedness. Through Jesus he can unite with us so we can also share in his nature like his son so that we can become children of God. We must be born from above (born again is what most bibles say) YES! Like Christ himself born of the Father so that we can be LIKE HIM join-heirs with Christ.

[TimothyVI]

Quote (IM4Truth @ Nov. 03 2007,12:17)

Timothy We did have, in fact my Husband used to work for a Jewish Bakery and so did I. Our Son bought the Business when the owner died. Let me tell you , very interesting People. Will never forget when I was cleaning out the Showcases which were pretty dirty. I was using an S.O.S. Pad, when the Rabbi came in. He told me what I was doing. He told me I was not aloud to use the S.O.S.Pad. I told Him I am not going to eat it. They have very strict  rules. We owed our own Bakery on the other side of the City, and  I am glad the Inspector is not Jewish. I had some real run in with those Inspectors about some ridiculous rules. I just told Him ,well as soon as you leave the coffee sticks come out again. Everything needs to be wrapped up and our costumers did not like that. We had loose ones and He knew it, just turned around and walked out. When I think back of all the things I did when we were in Business, it was fun. But the Jewish Business no thank you. Going out to eat with a Jewish Person is also fun. You have to go only to their People who are Kosher. I could not bring in Mc. Donalds into the Bakery and eat it, either. If the Rabbi or any other Jew would see it they would not come buy from you again. So much for that. One more thing, what does scriptures tell us who Anti-Christ is. The one that does not belief that Jesus came in the flesh. I should not tell Him what my beliefs are? I was responding to His post and He was not holding back at all. I just told Him how I feel. I belief He is only here to cause us trouble, not to learn or fellowship. Right from the beginning of His first post I noticed that. I belief I am not the only person that thinks so. Peace and Love Mrs.

I think that would have been fascinating Mrs.
I enjoy learning what other people and cultures believe.

I have to admit that I would not enjoy living under the rules and “law” under which the orthodox Jews live.

Praise God that I am free of that.

Tim

[TimothyVI]

Quote (Not3in1 @ Nov. 03 2007,11:18)

Tim[/quote] Hi Tim, With all due respect, you don't need to have Jewish friends to understand why they reject the Messiah.  It's all apart of the grand design. Read Romans chapter 11. Unless of course you want to listen to the messenger who will tell you not to trust the NT for it is not of God? Charity, Also, it is one thing to be passionate about beliefs and theories, it is quite another to deny the one who has bought us with his blood.

Hi not3,

Yes in Romans we are told how God will prevent the Jews from understanding the truth.
But the Jews don't read or believe in Romans, so I just enjoy hearing from their perspective why they do not believe.
I suppose that I could go to a jewish site for this understanding if this information is too disturbing to the rest of the folks on this site.

It is merely my overactive curiosity Mandy.

Tim

[Towshab]

Quote (IM4Truth @ Nov. 02 2007,14:30)

Towshab You come on here and through yourself around like you know it all, and accuse us of all kinds of things. How about you? You disagree with us. I am sorry, but I do not even think you are a good Jew. They do not come here and accuse us of what you do. You are so wrong when saying that we don't read the old Testament. My Husband for one is very involved with the Old Testament. He quotes from it all the time when He posts about Prophecy. I sing out of the Psalms and Charity quotes from Solomon. So think again. You would be better of showing us a little Love rather then what you do. Peace and Love Mrs.

I am not a Jew at all. I am a G-d fearing Gentile. Thus my username which is Hebrew for 'sojourner'. I merely associate with the Jewish people and give my dedication to the G-d of all flesh, YHVH. I recognize that Israel is G-d's chosen and He has not changed that. I was a Christian for many years until I started seeing more and more evidence from the Tanakh (your 'old testament' which is an insulting title) that Jesus was not who people said he was.

The reason I do what I do is twofold. The greatest threat to the Jewish people today is what it always has been – Christianity. Before it was the anti-semitic nature it created in its adherents and such hatred led to the slaughter and persecution of millions of Jewish people.

But the new threat is evangelism. Whereas Christians were killing Jews to try to wipe them off the map before now they are trying a new tactic to eliminate Judaism: conversion. Therefore I join with many of my Jewish brethren in preventing this new threat to Israel.

The other reason I do what I do is that Christianity takes away from YHVH. The main theme of Christianity is to worship a man and not G-d. This would not be so bad but they associate this man, Jesus, with YHVH by saying he is either His son or YHVH himself. Either way G-d is reduced to the level of humanity.

The Jewish scriptures make man in the image of G-d. The Christian bible makes G-d in the image of man.

Finally my love of G-d leads me to show the truth of G-d. What role does YHVH have in the Christian bible? Little to none. He is some mysterious G-d who only speaks a couple of times and goes by the title 'God the Father'. My G-d is not some obscure G-d whose only purpose is to point to His son.

[kenrch]

Quote (Towshab @ Nov. 04 2007,03:02)

Quote (IM4Truth @ Nov. 02 2007,14:30) Towshab You come on here and through yourself around like you know it all, and accuse us of all kinds of things. How about you? You disagree with us. I am sorry, but I do not even think you are a good Jew. They do not come here and accuse us of what you do. You are so wrong when saying that we don't read the old Testament. My Husband for one is very involved with the Old Testament. He quotes from it all the time when He posts about Prophecy. I sing out of the Psalms and Charity quotes from Solomon. So think again. You would be better of showing us a little Love rather then what you do. Peace and Love Mrs. I am not a Jew at all. I am a G-d fearing Gentile. Thus my username which is Hebrew for 'sojourner'. I merely associate with the Jewish people and give my dedication to the G-d of all flesh, YHVH. I recognize that Israel is G-d's chosen and He has not changed that. I was a Christian for many years until I started seeing more and more evidence from the Tanakh (your 'old testament' which is an insulting title) that Jesus was not who people said he was. The reason I do what I do is twofold. The greatest threat to the Jewish people today is what it always has been – Christianity. Before it was the anti-semitic nature it created in its adherents and such hatred led to the slaughter and persecution of millions of Jewish people. But the new threat is evangelism. Whereas Christians were killing Jews to try to wipe them off the map before now they are trying a new tactic to eliminate Judaism: conversion. Therefore I join with many of my Jewish brethren in preventing this new threat to Israel. The other reason I do what I do is that Christianity takes away from YHVH. The main theme of Christianity is to worship a man and not G-d. This would not be so bad but they associate this man, Jesus, with YHVH by saying he is either His son or YHVH himself. Either way G-d is reduced to the level of humanity. The Jewish scriptures make man in the image of G-d. The Christian bible makes G-d in the image of man. Finally my love of G-d leads me to show the truth of G-d. What role does YHVH have in the Christian bible? Little to none. He is some mysterious G-d who only speaks a couple of times and goes by the title 'God the Father'. My G-d is not some obscure G-d whose only purpose is to point to His son.

Sure you are a Jew you believe in G__D

[IM4Truth]

People stop answering this Guy, He is Antichrist.

[kenrch]

Not all worship Jesus.

Most of us on this site rejoice in Jesus because He is the Lamb that God provided so we wouldn't have to sacrifice animals WHICH is why you don't sacrifice animals.

OR what good do feasts without a sacrifice do?

Phi 3:3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

The people who slaughted Jews are NOT Christians. They are of the Harlot that the New Testament testifies of. Deceived people who like you did not have the Holy Spirit. Only a few ~the remnant~ Keep the commandments of God AND the testimony of Jesus.

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Do you sin all year then once a year keep a feasts with NO offering for your sin. IS this YOUR G____D

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (Towshab @ Nov. 04 2007,03:02)

The reason I do what I do is twofold. The greatest threat to the Jewish people today is what it always has been – Christianity. Before it was the anti-semitic nature it created in its adherents and such hatred led to the slaughter and persecution of millions of Jewish people. The other reason I do what I do is that Christianity takes away from YHVH. The main theme of Christianity is to worship a man and not G-d. This would not be so bad but they associate this man, Jesus, with YHVH by saying he is either His son or YHVH himself. Either way G-d is reduced to the level of humanity. The Jewish scriptures make man in the image of G-d. The Christian bible makes G-d in the image of man.

Towshab…..> if you study the word Sematic you will find it comes from the word Shem one of the three sons of Noah and the Jew's applied this term to them only when infact it is all the white race, Son's of Shem. And should be pronounced Anti-Shematic. Check it out type in the word Shem on google schrarch.

Towshab…..> I do agree with you concerning what so called “Christanity” has done by turnning Jesus into very God Himself and worshiping Him instead of God The Father. It's kind of like robbing Peter to Pay Paul, they rob God The Father and pay Jesus, somthing Jesus NEVER DID. They do tend to want to make him a God Man in one way or another giving Him all kinds of extra advantages, such as preexistence and creative experience and involvement, which takes away from the TRUE creator of ALL THINGS, YHWH our ONLY GOD.

I believe by turning Jesus the Man into a God or the God is what is anti-christ and is what creates the Man of Sin, spoken of in 2Ths 2-

But at the same time the Jew's reject Jesus as the Messiah when in there bibles in Isaiah 53:1-12, plainly showes Jesus is the Messiah

Peace to all truth seekers……..gene

[Towshab]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 03 2007,12:39)

Quote (Towshab @ Nov. 04 2007,03:02) The reason I do what I do is twofold. The greatest threat to the Jewish people today is what it always has been – Christianity. Before it was the anti-semitic nature it created in its adherents and such hatred led to the slaughter and persecution of millions of Jewish people. The other reason I do what I do is that Christianity takes away from YHVH. The main theme of Christianity is to worship a man and not G-d. This would not be so bad but they associate this man, Jesus, with YHVH by saying he is either His son or YHVH himself. Either way G-d is reduced to the level of humanity. The Jewish scriptures make man in the image of G-d. The Christian bible makes G-d in the image of man. Towshab…..> if you study the word Sematic you will find it comes from the word Shem one of the three sons of Noah and the Jew's applied this term to them only when infact it is all the white race, Son's of Shem. And should be pronounced Anti-Shematic. Check it out type in the word Shem on google schrarch. Towshab…..> I do agree with you concerning what so called “Christanity” has done by turnning Jesus into very God Himself and worshiping Him instead of God The Father. It's kind of like robbing Peter to Pay Paul, they rob God The Father and pay Jesus, somthing Jesus NEVER DID. They do tend to want to make him a God Man in one way or another giving Him all kinds of extra advantages, such as preexistence and creative experience and involvement, which takes away from the TRUE creator of ALL THINGS, YHWH our ONLY GOD. I believe by turning Jesus the Man into a God or the God is what is anti-christ and is what creates the Man of Sin, spoken of in 2Ths 2- But at the same time the Jew's reject Jesus as the Messiah when in there bibles in Isaiah 53:1-12, plainly showes Jesus is the Messiah Peace to all truth seekers……..gene

Thanks Gene but you are wrong about Isaiah 53. Isaiah 53 is about G-d's servant nation Israel. After the oppression of Israel by the various Gentile nations, Isaiah 53 shows that Israel will once more be lifted up in the eyes of those who oppressed him, the Gentile nations. The kings of the world will be awestruck when they realize what they have done to G-d's chosen servant.

Look at Is 53:10

Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

The KJV is not the most friendly version to use because they often twisted scripture to present Jesus in the 'old testament' but one very important word in Is 53:10 is 'seed'. Since Jesus did not have biological children he never passed his seed to successive generations. The word for 'seed' is 'zerah' and it cannot be use metaphorically. Besides that Jesus was said to be the first of many brethren not a father. Therefore he had no seed thus Is 53:10 disqualifies Jesus as the suffering servant of Is 52-53.

But look farther in verse 10. The phrase 'he shall prolong his days' comes from the two words 'yom' and 'arak' which do not mean eternal life but a long physical life. Since Jesus died at the age of 33 and Israel has been around thousands of years already I think you see the difference. If 53:10 was about someone having an eternal life the words would be 'chay olam' as seen in Daniel 12:2.

Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life {'chay olam'}, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

For all of you who believe Jesus is G-d and want to believe Is 53 is about Jesus, why would G-d be promised a long life? I think immortality would already lead to a long life wouldn't you .

If anyone has an issue with the use of singular pronouns to represent Israel, look back to Is 52.

Isa 52:4 (LITV) For so says the Lord Jehovah: My people went down to Egypt at the first, to reside there, and without cause Assyria oppressed him.

Of the Christian translations only LITV translates this properly. At the end of the verse you can see 'him' referring to Israel.

[Towshab]

Quote (TimothyVI @ Nov. 03 2007,07:07)

Quote (IM4Truth @ Nov. 03 2007,12:17) Timothy We did have, in fact my Husband used to work for a Jewish Bakery and so did I. Our Son bought the Business when the owner died. Let me tell you , very interesting People. Will never forget when I was cleaning out the Showcases which were pretty dirty. I was using an S.O.S. Pad, when the Rabbi came in. He told me what I was doing. He told me I was not aloud to use the S.O.S.Pad. I told Him I am not going to eat it. They have very strict rules. We owed our own Bakery on the other side of the City, and I am glad the Inspector is not Jewish. I had some real run in with those Inspectors about some ridiculous rules. I just told Him ,well as soon as you leave the coffee sticks come out again. Everything needs to be wrapped up and our costumers did not like that. We had loose ones and He knew it, just turned around and walked out. When I think back of all the things I did when we were in Business, it was fun. But the Jewish Business no thank you. Going out to eat with a Jewish Person is also fun. You have to go only to their People who are Kosher. I could not bring in Mc. Donalds into the Bakery and eat it, either. If the Rabbi or any other Jew would see it they would not come buy from you again. So much for that. One more thing, what does scriptures tell us who Anti-Christ is. The one that does not belief that Jesus came in the flesh. I should not tell Him what my beliefs are? I was responding to His post and He was not holding back at all. I just told Him how I feel. I belief He is only here to cause us trouble, not to learn or fellowship. Right from the beginning of His first post I noticed that. I belief I am not the only person that thinks so. Peace and Love Mrs. I think that would have been fascinating Mrs. I enjoy learning what other people and cultures believe. I have to admit that I would not enjoy living under the rules and “law” under which the orthodox Jews live. Praise God that I am free of that. Tim

Why would G-d have them do that? Once a Jewish person becomes a Christian he is no longer a Jew. Then this prophecy would not be fulfilled

Zec 8:23 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.

Notice it doesn't say that people will grab the garment of a Christian. Of course 'Christian' did not come until the Christian bible but still it does not say Gentile either. It specifically says 'Jew'.

[Towshab]

Quote (TimothyVI @ Nov. 02 2007,16:53)

Hi Mrs. The simple truth is that the Jews do not believe that Jesus is our saviour. Never will until God makes them. Towshab has been telling us why they do not believe. Personally, I prefer to be informed rather than quiet the messenger. I have no close Jewish friends to ask about these things. Tim

Oops my response to above was to this post not the one above **shame**

[Towshab]

Quote (t8 @ Nov. 02 2007,18:41)

Quote (Towshab @ Nov. 03 2007,00:46) T8 accused me of 'beating a dead horse' in showing the conflicts of the Christian bible. After 895 pages and Christians cannot agree on the nature of their god. And you don't see a problem with your bible? Well Towshab. It is not like all who read the Old Testament are in agreement either. There are all kinds of disputes pertaining to the messiah for example. It is inevitable that imperfect man trying to grasp perfection will stumble time and time again. It is wise to see why and not to throw away the baby with the bath water.

But those who hold to the faith of YHVH and not YHVH and a man are not confused as to who is in control and who is G-d. That's the most vital part of faith.

[Towshab]

Quote (kenrch @ Nov. 03 2007,11:05)

Quote (Towshab @ Nov. 04 2007,03:02) Quote (IM4Truth @ Nov. 02 2007,14:30) Towshab You come on here and through yourself around like you know it all, and accuse us of all kinds of things. How about you? You disagree with us. I am sorry, but I do not even think you are a good Jew. They do not come here and accuse us of what you do. You are so wrong when saying that we don't read the old Testament. My Husband for one is very involved with the Old Testament. He quotes from it all the time when He posts about Prophecy. I sing out of the Psalms and Charity quotes from Solomon. So think again. You would be better of showing us a little Love rather then what you do. Peace and Love Mrs. I am not a Jew at all. I am a G-d fearing Gentile. Thus my username which is Hebrew for 'sojourner'. I merely associate with the Jewish people and give my dedication to the G-d of all flesh, YHVH. I recognize that Israel is G-d's chosen and He has not changed that. I was a Christian for many years until I started seeing more and more evidence from the Tanakh (your 'old testament' which is an insulting title) that Jesus was not who people said he was. The reason I do what I do is twofold. The greatest threat to the Jewish people today is what it always has been – Christianity. Before it was the anti-semitic nature it created in its adherents and such hatred led to the slaughter and persecution of millions of Jewish people. But the new threat is evangelism. Whereas Christians were killing Jews to try to wipe them off the map before now they are trying a new tactic to eliminate Judaism: conversion. Therefore I join with many of my Jewish brethren in preventing this new threat to Israel. The other reason I do what I do is that Christianity takes away from YHVH. The main theme of Christianity is to worship a man and not G-d. This would not be so bad but they associate this man, Jesus, with YHVH by saying he is either His son or YHVH himself. Either way G-d is reduced to the level of humanity. The Jewish scriptures make man in the image of G-d. The Christian bible makes G-d in the image of man. Finally my love of G-d leads me to show the truth of G-d. What role does YHVH have in the Christian bible? Little to none. He is some mysterious G-d who only speaks a couple of times and goes by the title 'God the Father'. My G-d is not some obscure G-d whose only purpose is to point to His son. Sure you are a Jew you believe in G__D

Yes I believe in YHVH not 'God the Father' a practically unknown character in your bible. Your bible is about a man, the bible I cherish is about my G-d.

[GeneBalthrop]

Towshab….> Isa 53:12 when did Israel ever pour out His (SOUL) unto death,

Isa 53:8….> when was Israel ever cut off from the land of the living, and for the Transgressions of (MY) people He was stricken, who's people was Isaiah talking about.

Isa 53:3 say's a (MAN) of sorrows, not a nation of sorrows as it would have said if the text meant Israel.

Towshab…..read the whole thing it can not mean Israel as a nation, as the Jew's say. Its describing a sacrifical Lamb who would carry the sin's of the people of Isreal and the whole world, its tlking about Jesus the Messiah. Israel never really served God, thats why they were thrust out of their land because of their sins. They could never quilify to carry the sin for anyone not even their own sin could they carry.

Please don't think i am against the Jews I have many Jewish friends and have sat and descused this topic with their Rabbies a number of times.

There are other points I could bring up also like the time Period of when the Messiah was to be Born in Daniel. The Jews new that it was the time of the Messiah apearence, thats why Herod reacted the way he did, by killing all the male babies at that time.

IMO…….>gene

[Towshab]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 03 2007,17:04)

Towshab….> Isa 53:12 when did Israel ever pour out His (SOUL) unto death,

The millions of Jews that have been killed and you even need to ask that question? One of the smallest peoples of all time will be numbered among the great because they are G-d's chosen people and He will redeem them and make them mighty in the end.

Zec 8:23 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.

Quote

Isa 53:8….> when was Israel ever cut off from the land of the living, and for the Transgressions of (MY) people He was stricken, who's people was Isaiah talking about.

Again, do you need to even ask? How many Jewish people have been cut off from the land of the living? And when was Jesus ever in prison? He never was! But think of the millions of Jews imprisoned, particularly in the death camps of the Nazis. The Jews have been persecuted over the last 2000 years not for their transgressions but those of the people who chose to mistreat and kill them.

Quote

Isa 53:3 say's a (MAN) of sorrows, not a nation of sorrows as it would have said if the text meant Israel.

The whole of Is 53 is represented in singular why would it switch here? Plus look at the tense of the verse:

Isa 53:3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

Note the present tense. How can a present tense written by Isaiah apply to a future messiah? Israel has continuously been despised by the world. All you really need to do is look at the history of the Jewish people to see how this applies to them even now.

Even in other Christian translations the verse has a past tense but not a single one has a future tense.

Quote

Towshab…..read the whole thing it can not mean Israel as a nation, as the Jew's say. Its describing a sacrifical Lamb who would carry the sin's of the people of Isreal and the whole world, its tlking about Jesus the Messiah. Israel never really served God, thats why they were thrust out of their land because of their sins. They could never quilify to carry the sin for anyone not even their own sin could they carry.

The Jews have been a persecuted people in all of their history. This chapter is not about them atoning for anyone's sins but suffering because of the sins of others. Yes they have transgressed in their own right but please name for me a nation that ever enslaved, persecuted, or slaughtered Israelites that was a righteous and holy nation. Not a one. They were always allowed to fall under the bondage of wicked people.

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Please don't think i am against the Jews I have many Jewish friends and have sat and descused this topic with their Rabbies a number of times. There are other points I could bring up also like the time Period of when the Messiah was to be Born in Daniel. The Jews new that it was the time of the Messiah apearence, thats why Herod reacted the way he did, by killing all the male babies at that time. IMO…….>gene

Daniel 9 is not about THE messiah but an anointed one. Two actually. One after the first 49 years and another after 434 years. There is not definite article before either 'moshiach' in Daniel 9. Thus either anointed one could be a king or priest. The predominant Jewish interpretation is King Cyrus and the high priest over the temple in 70 AD.

[Morningstar]

I am reposting this in hopes of having someone respond. I wanted to get the opinion of those who DO believe in the preexistence of Christ.

Please seriously give this serious thought. I feel that terminology really hinders alot of the discussion on this thread. I would like to share my view which is the very of the first and second generation of Christians.

My view and the early Christian view.

We believe in a trinity BUT NOT the Trinity doctrine of today. The early Christians even used the word trinity BUT NOT what it means today.

The Difference between the terminology of the titles God and Godhead.

God when discussing the Father = Most High only eternal TRUE God. The Source and Power of all things.

God when discussing Jesus = the divine begotten son who shares the very same nature as the Father, but is not the eternal TRUE God but is his firstborn. Jesus was the instrument of Creation the Father used. Jesus is God by nature being of the same substance of divinity but he is not a multiple personality of a triune God. He is the Son of God who revealed his Father to men both in the Old and New Testaments.

Godhead = the administration of the office we call God. Not discussing a person but a hierarchy of administration. God communes with man through his Son as a conduit for his Holy Spirit. This is what the early Christians talked about when they used the term Trinity. (look it up) This is how the Godhead works as a trinity. But God IS NOT a trinity.

God is a title Shared by the Most High and his firstborn and only begotten Son. Two beings of the same nature, like Father like Son. One unbegotten and eternal (the Father) one begotten in the exact image of the unbegotten (the son).

Godhead is a title of the office of God. No longer a divine council as describe in the Old Testament. The Most High only operates through one Son the other principalities and powers fell. The Father works through his Son to share his Spirit. The Trinity is a term of administration describing the Godhead not a definition of the nature of God as a being.

The Father only operates through his one Good Son who loved righteousness and hated wickedness. Through Jesus he can unite with us so we can also share in his nature like his son so that we can become children of God. We must be born from above (born again is what most bibles say) YES! Like Christ himself born of the Father so that we can be LIKE HIM join-heirs with Christ.

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (Towshab @ Nov. 05 2007,12:20)

The Jews have been a persecuted people in all of their history. This chapter is not about them atoning for anyone's sins but suffering because of the sins of others. Yes they have transgressed in their own right but please name for me a nation that ever enslaved, persecuted, or slaughtered Israelites that was a righteous and holy nation. Not a one. They were always allowed to fall under the bondage of wicked people.

Towshab…..> The Jew's only make up One thirteenth of the tribes of Israel and while the Jew are a tribe of Israel they are no where near the full House of Israel, God Said they would be as the sands of the sea. The conception that the Jew are complete Israel is wrong they are only a small part of Israel. If you look in 2 Kings you will find the Kingdom of Israel at war with the Kingdom of Judah. They were not even the same Nation as the Jew's were.

And the Kingdom of Israel as well as the Kingdom of Judah were both stricken By God for their own sin, not for the sins of anyone else. It was God who used the other nations to destory there nations and kicked them out of their land Just as it says, it was for their own transgressions of Idolatry and unfaithfullness that brought on their desasters. Didn't God say He would desperse them into all the nations and send a sword after them where ever they would go.

I believe you are totally wrong in saying the Jew's are suffering for others, they are suffering for the own sins not others. And not all Nations perscute Jew's the Untied Sates Has and still does support Israel, infact without our aid there proberly wouldn't even be a Jewish Nation. We are their Allies and have been since there Nation started even to now.

Here is a list of the tribes
the Kingbom of Israel
1….> Ephriam
2….> Manasseh
3….> Gad
4….> Ruben
5….> Simeon
6….> Asher
7….> Zebulum
8….> Issachar
9….> Dan
10..> Naphtali
the Kingdom of Judah
1….> Judah
2….> Levi
3….> Bengamin

All these tribes still exist today, infact many who are on theis very site are decendents of these tribes and don't even know it, but someday will.
A time will come when God will gather all of Israel from aroung the world where He scattered them.

Shalom………..gene

[Laurel]

Quote (IM4Truth @ Nov. 03 2007,07:30)

Towshab You come on here and through yourself around like you know it all, and accuse us of all kinds of things. How about you? You disagree with us. I am sorry, but I do not even think you are a good Jew. They do not come here and accuse us of what you do. You are so wrong when saying that we don't read the old Testament. My Husband for one is very involved with the Old Testament. He quotes from it all the time when He posts about Prophecy. I sing out of the Psalms and Charity quotes from Solomon. So think again. You would be better of showing us a little Love rather then what you do. Peace and Love Mrs.

I just want everyone to see this. The next time Iam4 (Mrs.) tells, “Don't don't listen to Laurel because she uses the Old Testament and we are in the New Testament now.”, then remind her that she is contradicting herself!!!!

Thank you,
Laurel

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