The Trinity Doctrine

[Laurel]

Gene,
Thank you for making that most true point about the tribes of Israel. YHWH will and may have already begun, making the two sticks into one stick. I do not remember whwere I saw that, but it is a prophecy about the Nations of Judah and Israel. When the Nations of Israel see the importance of the Torah and worship YHWH their Elohim, and when the tribes of Judah see their Messiah and are blessed with the Spirit. Then, we will be a complete body, a complete church and the Messiah will return as King over us all, and take us to His Kingdom, the kingdom where His Father, our Father dwells.

Laurel

1Ki 17:8 And the word of the LORD came unto him, saying,
1Ki 17:9 Arise, get thee to Zarephath, which belongeth to Zidon, and dwell there: behold, I have commanded a widow woman there to sustain thee.
1Ki 17:10 So he arose and went to Zarephath. And when he came to the gate of the city, behold, the widow woman was there gathering of sticks: and he called to her, and said, Fetch me, I pray thee, a little water in a vessel, that I may drink.
1Ki 17:11 And as she was going to fetch it, he called to her, and said, Bring me, I pray thee, a morsel of bread in thine hand.
1Ki 17:12 And she said, As the LORD thy God liveth, I have not a cake, but an handful of meal in a barrel, and a little oil in a cruse: and, behold, I am gathering two sticks, that I may go in and dress it for me and my son, that we may eat it, and die.
1Ki 17:13 And Elijah said unto her, Fear not; go and do as thou hast said: but make me thereof a little cake first, and bring it unto me, and after make for thee and for thy son.
1Ki 17:14 For thus saith the LORD God of Israel, The barrel of meal shall not waste, neither shall the cruse of oil fail, until the day that the LORD sendeth rain upon the earth.
1Ki 17:15 And she went and did according to the saying of Elijah: and she, and he, and her house, did eat many days.
1Ki 17:16 And the barrel of meal wasted not, neither did the cruse of oil fail, according to the word of the LORD, which he spake by Elijah.

The “oil” here represents the Spirit, the “meal” represents the body.

Also Elijah is famous for having said, You can not worship Elohim and Mammon. In other words you can not worship the Creator and what has been created. Choose one or the other. This is stated in the book of Revelations “part of the three angles message.”

Y'shua said Elijah has already come. He was speaking to the Orthodox Jews of today who at every Seder, put a place at their table for Elijah, and keep the door of their home open for Elijah.

You will see time and time again, that Messiah “upheld” the Torah.

Laurel

[Laurel]

Jer 3:14 Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion:

Two families made into one city.
Jer 52:20 The two pillars, one sea, and twelve brasen bulls that were under the bases, which king Solomon had made in the house of the LORD: the brass of all these vessels was without weight.

Two pillars one sea= two types of people in one sea of people.

Eze 21:19 Also, thou son of man, appoint thee two ways, that the sword of the king of Babylon may come: both twain shall come forth out of one land: and choose thou a place, choose it at the head of the way to the city.

Like two rivers flowing from “ONE” head.

Eze 37:15 The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying,
Eze 37:16 Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions:
Eze 37:17 And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.
Eze 37:18 And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, Wilt thou not shew us what thou meanest by these?
Eze 37:19 Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.
Eze 37:20 And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes.
Eze 37:21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:
Eze 37:22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:
Eze 37:23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.

PROOF!!!

His will, will be done.

[Laurel]

Thus, the bridge.

[IM4Truth]

Laurel why? Judge yoursef. Don't start an argument with me, I have no intrest in that.
I do not have to explain to you at all, only to God.

Love Mrs.

[Towshab]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 04 2007,22:25)

Quote (Towshab @ Nov. 05 2007,12:20) The Jews have been a persecuted people in all of their history. This chapter is not about them atoning for anyone's sins but suffering because of the sins of others. Yes they have transgressed in their own right but please name for me a nation that ever enslaved, persecuted, or slaughtered Israelites that was a righteous and holy nation. Not a one. They were always allowed to fall under the bondage of wicked people. Towshab…..> The Jew's only make up One thirteenth of the tribes of Israel and while the Jew are a tribe of Israel they are no where near the full House of Israel, God Said they would be as the sands of the sea. The conception that the Jew are complete Israel is wrong they are only a small part of Israel. If you look in 2 Kings you will find the Kingdom of Israel at war with the Kingdom of Judah. They were not even the same Nation as the Jew's were. And the Kingdom of Israel as well as the Kingdom of Judah were both stricken By God for their own sin, not for the sins of anyone else. It was God who used the other nations to destory there nations and kicked them out of their land Just as it says, it was for their own transgressions of Idolatry and unfaithfullness that brought on their desasters. Didn't God say He would desperse them into all the nations and send a sword after them where ever they would go. I believe you are totally wrong in saying the Jew's are suffering for others, they are suffering for the own sins not others. And not all Nations perscute Jew's the Untied Sates Has and still does support Israel, infact without our aid there proberly wouldn't even be a Jewish Nation. We are their Allies and have been since there Nation started even to now. Here is a list of the tribes the Kingbom of Israel 1….> Ephriam 2….> Manasseh 3….> Gad 4….> Ruben 5….> Simeon 6….> Asher 7….> Zebulum 8….> Issachar 9….> Dan 10..> Naphtali the Kingdom of Judah 1….> Judah 2….> Levi 3….> Bengamin All these tribes still exist today, infact many who are on theis very site are decendents of these tribes and don't even know it, but someday will. A time will come when God will gather all of Israel from aroung the world where He scattered them. Shalom………..gene

Hi Gene, I will respond to this post later but I will pull it into the messiah thread because this is about the trinity. I had written a response but left it on another computer so it will be tomorrow.

[Samuel]

The bottom line is if your trying to bulldog a doctrine down my throat …i'm never going to believe it. Because Jesus said “Behold, I stand at the door and knock.” not “I'm gonna huff and puff and blow your house down.”

[WhatIsTrue]

In another topic, Is 1:18 wrote:

Quote

It's also notable that for the first and only time the Father forsook Yeshua. They had an exceptionally unique relationship and seperation like this would have been what Yeshua was really fearing in Gethsemane , I think.

This is an extremely interesting admission from a Trinitarian as it seems to imply that Yeshua was seperable from God the Father, (i.e. capable of not being one with God).  But, before I jump to conclusions –    – I did want to give Is 1:18 a chance to clarify.

So, Is 1:18, what did you mean by the above statement?  Does the separation that you describe above involve two separate beings, (e.g. one being consisting of the Father and the Holy Spirit and the other one consisting of the person Yeshua), or is this a separation of God from God within Himself, (i.e. schizophrenia)?

[Mr. Steve]

Samuel;

That's funny. I've never thought of Jesus as the big bad wolf. The devil on the other hand does trespass. The thief cometh not but for to steal, kill, and destroy. Jesus told those in the temple the reason they didn't believe was because they were not his sheep. It's very interesting.

Take Care

Steven

[Samuel]

He's not the Big Bad Wolf …thats precisely my point.

But some people seem to think they have to pry your mouth open and shove the word or their belief rather…down your throat. And in some churches they feel like they have to grab a hold of you and shake your senseless.

Obviously, Jesus is not like this. Thats my point exactly.

[Is 1:18]

Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Nov. 08 2007,09:33)

In another topic, Is 1:18 wrote: Quote It's also notable that for the first and only time the Father forsook Yeshua. They had an exceptionally unique relationship and seperation like this would have been what Yeshua was really fearing in Gethsemane , I think. This is an extremely interesting admission from a Trinitarian as it seems to imply that Yeshua was seperable from God the Father, (i.e. capable of not being one with God).  But, before I jump to conclusions –    – I did want to give Is 1:18 a chance to clarify. So, Is 1:18, what did you mean by the above statement?  Does the separation that you describe above involve two separate beings, (e.g. one being consisting of the Father and the Holy Spirit and the other one consisting of the person Yeshua), or is this a separation of God from God within Himself, (i.e. schizophrenia)?

Wow 900 pages and counting. Not many threads around this long. That's quite a milestone for Heaven.Net. WIT, I'll clarify. The separation that I spoke of was a disengagement in the intimate communion shared by the Father and Son. The Son was our sin offering, at the time of His suffering and death He became sin (2 Cor 5:21), a curse (Gal 3:13).

“he bore our griefs and carried our sorrows; that he was wounded for our transgressions, and bruised for our iniquities; that the chastisement of our peace was laid upon him; that by his stripes we are healed.” (Isa 53:4-5)

Hab 1:13 declares that God cannot look upon sin, therefore I've inferred that for the first and only time in Yeshua's existence there was a severing of their unique relationship. The Father looked away. This, of course, has nothing to do with WHAT Yeshua was and is (i.e His nature). Word was God….Word became flesh.

Clear?

BTW, how's parenthood going for you?

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Towshab @ Nov. 04 2007,03:02)

Quote (IM4Truth @ Nov. 02 2007,14:30) Towshab You come on here and through yourself around like you know it all, and accuse us of all kinds of things. How about you? You disagree with us. I am sorry, but I do not even think you are a good Jew. They do not come here and accuse us of what you do. You are so wrong when saying that we don't read the old Testament. My Husband for one is very involved with the Old Testament. He quotes from it all the time when He posts about Prophecy. I sing out of the Psalms and Charity quotes from Solomon. So think again. You would be better of showing us a little Love rather then what you do. Peace and Love Mrs. I am not a Jew at all. I am a G-d fearing Gentile. Thus my username which is Hebrew for 'sojourner'. I merely associate with the Jewish people and give my dedication to the G-d of all flesh, YHVH. I recognize that Israel is G-d's chosen and He has not changed that. I was a Christian for many years until I started seeing more and more evidence from the Tanakh (your 'old testament' which is an insulting title) that Jesus was not who people said he was. The reason I do what I do is twofold. The greatest threat to the Jewish people today is what it always has been – Christianity. Before it was the anti-semitic nature it created in its adherents and such hatred led to the slaughter and persecution of millions of Jewish people. But the new threat is evangelism. Whereas Christians were killing Jews to try to wipe them off the map before now they are trying a new tactic to eliminate Judaism: conversion. Therefore I join with many of my Jewish brethren in preventing this new threat to Israel. The other reason I do what I do is that Christianity takes away from YHVH. The main theme of Christianity is to worship a man and not G-d. This would not be so bad but they associate this man, Jesus, with YHVH by saying he is either His son or YHVH himself. Either way G-d is reduced to the level of humanity. The Jewish scriptures make man in the image of G-d. The Christian bible makes G-d in the image of man. Finally my love of G-d leads me to show the truth of G-d. What role does YHVH have in the Christian bible? Little to none. He is some mysterious G-d who only speaks a couple of times and goes by the title 'God the Father'. My G-d is not some obscure G-d whose only purpose is to point to His son.

Towshab.

There is a difference between the Body of Christ and Mystery Babylon. You can read about it in The Book of Revelation.

Do not think that one is the other. That is a common mistake of many and they do not see any reality in Christ because of misrepresentation.

But misrepresentation is also a reality. We need wisdom to see the difference.

The other thing is that God reached down to man because man could not reach to God. It is truly not about making a God in man's image. Although I am sure for some people it is, but God's dealings with the Church is him reaching down to us because he loves us.

He reached down to us through his messiah. This is the focus and not a so-called man who is God as has been represented by false teachers. This latter point is not taught in the New Testament at all, and the messiah certainly never said he was God.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Is 1:18 @ Nov. 08 2007,18:28)

Wow 900 pages and counting. Not many threads around this long.

Maybe there should be a prize for the one who posts the 10000 post on the 1000 page?

Maybe a mention in the Guinness Book of world records.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Is 1:18 @ Nov. 08 2007,18:28)

Hab 1:13 declares that God cannot look upon sin, therefore I've inferred that for the first and only time in Yeshua's existence there was a severing of their unique relationship. The Father looked away. This, of course, has nothing to do with WHAT Yeshua was and is (i.e His nature). Word was God….Word became flesh. Clear?

Hi Is 1:18.

I understand that The Father and son were separated because the son took upon himself the sins of the world and this led to Jesus saying “my God, my God, why have you forsaken me.

But from a Trinitarian view point we also have a problem. Did the God substance split in 2 or 1/3 v 2/3?

Or did the God substance stay intact, but only that one of the members was excommunicated for a time, even though he still was attached by the substance?

I am not sure how you would see this, through the Trinity doctrine filter.

[Towshab]

Quote (t8 @ Nov. 08 2007,03:13)

Towshab. There is a difference between the Body of Christ and Mystery Babylon. You can read about it in The Book of Revelation. Do not think that one is the other. That is a common mistake of many and they do not see any reality in Christ because of misrepresentation. But misrepresentation is also a reality. We need wisdom to see the difference. The other thing is that God reached down to man because man could not reach to God. It is truly not about making a God in man's image. Although I am sure for some people it is, but God's dealings with the Church is him reaching down to us because he loves us.

Show me where people in the Tanakh had all of this so-called trouble reaching G-d.

Quote

He reached down to us through his messiah. This is the focus and not a so-called man who is God as has been represented by false teachers. This latter point is not taught in the New Testament at all, and the messiah certainly never said he was God.

Show me in the Tanakh where the Moshiach was to be the biological son of G-d.

Show me in the Tanakh where people were to call of the name of the Moshiach for salvation when the Jewish scriptures emphasized calling on the name of YHVH. Here is one

Joe 2:32 And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved. For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be those who escape, as the LORD has said, and among the survivors shall be those whom the LORD calls.

Nothing here about calling on the Moshiach.

What Christianity does is put a 'middle man' between mankind and G-d. You don't find that in the Tanakh.

2Ch 7:14 if my people who are called by my name humble themselves, and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and heal their land.

See, no 'middle man'.

[WhatIsTrue]

Is 1:18 wrote:

Quote

Wow 900 pages and counting. Not many threads around this long. That's quite a milestone for Heaven.Net. WIT, I'll clarify. The separation that I spoke of was a disengagement in the intimate communion shared by the Father and Son. The Son was our sin offering, at the time of His suffering and death He became sin (2 Cor 5:21), a curse (Gal 3:13). “he bore our griefs and carried our sorrows; that he was wounded for our transgressions, and bruised for our iniquities; that the chastisement of our peace was laid upon him; that by his stripes we are healed.” (Isa 53:4-5) Hab 1:13 declares that God cannot look upon sin, therefore I've inferred that for the first and only time in Yeshua's existence there was a severing of their unique relationship. The Father looked away. This, of course, has nothing to do with WHAT Yeshua was and is (i.e His nature). Word was God….Word became flesh. Clear?

Clear?  Not quite.  Let me put it to you this way:

During this “separation”, were they, Father and Son, still One Being?  If so, how were they “separated”?

By the way, I presume that your definition of the Trinity isn't simply that there are three people who share the same nature, because that is not terribly monotheistic.  You and I share the same nature, but that certainly doesn't make us “one”.  I presume that you define God as One Being who just happens to have three heads be three people.

Quote

BTW, how's parenthood going for you?

Lovely.  My boy just turned a year old, and I'm completely out of breath.  

[kenrch]

The Holy Spirit left Jesus because he was full of sin. I mean FULL!

We have a portion of the Spirit where Jesus had ALL of the Spirit.

[kenrch]

Over 900 pages!  You think all the scriptures were covered?   We just love to debate (Argue?), don't we?

So much we go round and round with those who believe their is NO God!  And those who believe that Jesus is a false Messiah.

WHY?  Just to “DEBATE” (Argue!)?  Or is there doubt?

2Jo 1:6  And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.

2Jo 1:7  For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

2Jo 1:8  Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.

2Jo 1:9  Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

2Jo 1:10  If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:

2Jo 1:11  For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

Who's the fool the liar are the one who, despite the above scriptures, gives an ear to the one he  believes is an liar?

What is the motive of continueing to entertain such a person(s).  Do these people in some way have some truth you want?

2Co 10:5  We destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ,

May God bless us all!

[Morningstar]

good points Kenrch

I suppose it is a balance between your verses and this verse and knowing when to draw the line.

1 Peter 3
15 Instead, you must worship Christ as Lord of your life. And if someone asks about your Christian hope, always be ready to explain it.

[kenrch]

Quote (Morningstar @ Nov. 09 2007,03:08)

good points Kenrch I suppose it is a balance between your verses and this verse and knowing when to draw the line. 1 Peter 3 15 Instead, you must worship Christ as Lord of your life. And if someone asks about your Christian hope, always be ready to explain it.

I know brother but aren't we at some point to shake the dust off our feet?

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Towshab @ Nov. 08 2007,21:39)

What Christianity does is put a 'middle man' between mankind and G-d. You don't find that in the Tanakh.

I don't agree Towshab.

God spoke to people through the prophets and now he speaks to us through his son.

God always speaks through someone.

It's not like God just comes up to people and says “Hi, I am God”.

Even the law was mediated by angels.

[Author]

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