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Quote Divine Deity…You brought it up…you tell me…and from looking at when you last edited your post…it would seem that you've taken it out completely.
And your still trying to say that your more knowledgeable than me…yet providing no proof of it or answering any of my questionsDivine deity was your phrase Samuel, I was quoting you. Never mind….
I only changed grammar with the edit to make the post readible, I didn't delete anything significant, so I'm not sure what you mean there….
Quote you speak in riddles and answer questions with questions.
Not true. Please stop getting personal Samuel. I thought we agreed on that.Quote And…yes…In my opinion JESUS was “Begotten” by GOD…which means in all practical purposes he “Came From” GOD. And if you want to use the “Term” “Created” then …cool works for me.
Yes Yeshua was begotten? But when? What does scripture say?Quote (Samuel @ Oct. 27 2007,20:14) Quote Quote (Samuel @ Oct. 27 2007,20:00)
ok…fair is fair…if you can't find any questions you've not answered, I'll help you out:
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If GOD is Jesus…and Jesus has already Risen to return to his status as GOD as this doctrine would have us believe…then why does GOD need someone or something to make his enemy's his footstool?How do you know that Yeshua needed someone to do this for Him?
Bare in mind this is probably not one of the most important questions that I've asked you…however…it is still an example of how in this case you answered a question with a question. As if you want me to guess what your thinking.
I'm not avoiding the question. The question had a false premise, namely Yeshua “needed” something to make his enemy's his footstool. Scripture does not record this.
Uh..yes it is written my friend:
Hebrews 1:13
But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
Where is the word “needed”?Ok well it would seem that I owe you an apology on the Divine Deity thing…Its one of those instances where I had to “GUESS” what you meant by your post.
The word Needed…ok…your being over analytical.
I can see that I am not going to get a single “Sound” answer from you on anything.
God bless you…and may your life be full of joy.
But I'm going to have to end our conversation…because it's never going to go anywhere.
Samuel, you asked me a question I could not legitimately answer because it contained the false premise that Yeshua “needed” this to be done for Him. I don't think that could be true given that ALL power/authority was given to Him (Matt 28:18) and He is Lord of all (Acts 10:36). Psalms 110:1 is not evidence against His deity.
Regarding the begotten issue, I'm not trying to trap you in something here. Everyone believes He was begotten. I'm always interested in how people interpret those statements. I personally believe that He was only begotten once – at the incarnation. That appears to be what scripture supports. Do you agree with me?
Quote and He is Lord of all (Acts 10:36). Jesus is Lord of all because of the following:
Acts 2:36
“Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”They were cut to the heart not because they crucified God, but because they crucified the one who God MADE Lord and Christ.
So God has made Jesus Lord.
It is written and therefore we should accept that, if we are to be disciples and followers of the truth.
Jesus being Lord was never to be understood that he is God, rather that God made him Lord.
Again it is simple to comprehend, unless something else gets in the way of the simplicity, such as a conflicting doctrine.
Quote (Samuel @ Oct. 27 2007,11:05) Are you serious? At best this scripture stats simply that JESUS was “Pre-existent” in the “Form of GOD” notice that is does not say “AS GOD” but it says instead “In the FORM of GOD” Now…I don't know about you but what I get from reading that is that JESUS existed in the same manner that GOD exist now. Which is in SPIRIT. I know that there is “One” GOD, which is spirit…and “No man hath seen GOD at any time”. So…At best this scripture stats that Jesus existed with GOD as SPIRIT…or in the same fashion that GOD exists. And just because JESUS emptied himself and became poor…don't mean that GOD did. And what about the Holy Spirit? Why does Jesus pray to GOD?
Why does Jesus Call GOD “His” GOD?
Why does he not know the day or hour when he will return to get his church?
Why does GOD tell him that he will make his enemy's his Footstool? If GOD is Jesus…and Jesus has already Risen to return to his status as GOD as this doctrine would have us believe…then why does GOD need someone or something to make his enemy's his footstool?The doctrine just don't add up…I'm sorry. There are too many questions that arise or need to be explained with a Oneness or a Trinity belief. Which really its super silly IMO. Oneness believe that GOD is GOD, Jesus is GOD, and the Holy Spirit is GOD…and they all exist in “One” Being or Deity. Trinity believe that GOD is GOD, Jesus is GOD, and the Holy Spirit is GOD and they are “Three” Different Beings or Deity's…but basically both of these doctrines are pretty much saying the same thing…that they are all god. Oneness just claims they only serve “ONE” GOD because They believe they are all “ONE” but they are not. Jesus is NOT GOD. He just is not…I do not believe it is so. God help me if I'm wrong. JESUS is GODS SON. Just like I am my Dad's SON. So is JESUS GODS SON.
Its really not that hard to understand. Really its not. It's pretty simple.
Yes…I do agree there is ONE ALMIGHTY GOD…the I AM THAT I AM GOD. But, Jesus is not that GOD…He is that GODS SON.
How can people not understand this?
I can't see how people can't understand this?
Exactly Samuel. Good points.It is amazingly simple to understand, but many do not like simplicity perhaps it offends their intellectual pride. They don't like the fact that God's foolishness is greater than mans wisdom.
Many would rather go with a complicated a doctrine instead, even so complicated that it makes no sense to anyone, like the Trinity doctrine.
Then they excuse the fact that the doctrine cannot be comprehended by saying, “God is beyond our comprehension”.
It is true that God is beyond comprehension, but it is also true that God has revealed himself and part of that revelation is scripture. God wouldn't reveal a doctrine that we could never understand because if we were to accept that, then we could accept any amount of foolishness and false teachings that make no sense. And guess what? That has happened. Because Jesus is God to them, then to some of them, Mary becomes the Mother of God. Then some even accept that they can pray to saints, because they can pray to God's mother. The foolishness just creates more foolishness, and in order to sustain lies, more lies are invented.
When God reveals, it is because he wants us to understand. That is why prophecy is a greater gift than tongues. Prophecy can be understood and tongues cannot unless there is interpretation.
Quote (Samuel @ Oct. 27 2007,11:28) Well…brother I've really been doing some praying and some studying….I mean you just don't know. I've had some things laid on my heart.
I can tell you what the answer to all my questions are…some won't agree with me or believe me…but nonetheless I can tell you…
Gene already answered them…the answer is quite simple.
JESUS IS NOT GOD! GOD IS GOD…and JESUS IS HIS SON!
Pretty cool eh?
Exactly what the first few generations of Christians believed. It's amazing how you can see the “evolution” of the trinity doctrine through the writings of the early church.Even with these writings. Even with the consent of scholars. And even with the early churches view following scripture more closely and more literally, our dear brothers the trinitarians ond oneness folks just won't budge.
Morningstar…….> I have thought about what you have said also aboutTrinitarians and them holding on to their false belief's. The only answer I could come up with is either their pride blinds them our the past traditions cause them shirt the truth when presented to them. I believe you have to really love the truth more them, what you've learned in the past and must be willing to let it go if whats presented to you is true, even if it means you were wrong in what you believed.
It say's in 2Thes2, because the recieved not the love the truth, GOD will send unto them a strong delusion in order for them to believe the LIE.
So you see if God deludes someone, it's impossible for those who have the truth to undelude them with out God's help. I know these trinitarians are sincere people, but you can be sincere and sincerely decieved at the same time. Remember when Jesus said those that Kill you would think they were doing God a service. Look at the past of the Trinitarians, at all the millions they killed in the name of their trinitarian God.
May God the Father bless all who truly love truth……gene
Quote (Samuel @ Oct. 27 2007,19:19) It's become quite clear to me that your a very good debater. You've not really answered any of my questions but yet you've gracefully…sidestepped your way out of havening to answer anything.
What your trying to do is use a “Play of words to infer that you know something everyone else don't” And it would seem to me that it Highly entertains you to have people try to “Speculate” what it is that you feel that you know that other people don't.
I would assume that your a wonderful guy and and even better Christian.
If you have discovered a truth it would probably be better to teach your fellow brothers and sisters of that truth. I've read your debates with T8 and you seem to enjoy presenting yourself as someone that has the answer for everything even when you don't….like I said…your a good debater.
Thats the impression of yourself that you have successfully accomplished in instilling in me about you.
I would guess that you've taken debate class in High School or in College…or maybe your a politician. Nonetheless you've obviously learned superior debating skills from somewhere.To answer some of your questions:
I'm not as ignorant as you would have me to believe. Like I've said…I've read quite a few of your posts and debates with T8, and I've researched quite a few things from them.If you would quit trying to side step around every possible explanation…and rather just go ahead and explain yourself more clearly …you might find it would resolve a number of the refutes you might get from your posts.
I would assume that I'm trying to do what any capable “Man” would do with the knowledge he's been given…and given the scripture says “Man” was created in the “Likeness or Image” of GOD as well…A “Man” might assume that he could apply a “Model” of “Men” to describe the GOD he was created in the “Likeness of”.
What you are doing …is however trying to explore beyond the possibility of your given comprehension of things and assume that you can understand the ways of a “Divine Deity” …even though you really have no knowledge of how a Divine Deity works…Your Carnal Mind can really only ever understand Carnal thoughts at its current state. So man tries to assume that since “ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE” with GOD that it has to be a far more complicated venue that he underwent to do things. Even if he did…I very seriously doubt you'd be able to understand it. And, if you could understand the very mind of GOD or the way a Divine Deity works…It might confuse all your thoughts altogether:
Romans 11
33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable [are] his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?This scripture very clearly asks a “Infers” the question “For who hath known the mind of the Lord?”
Have you known the mind of the Lord? Have you been his counsellor?I'll do the same thing to you on verse 33 as you've done with us on your scripture quote…let you figure out what is supposed to mean.
What is all boils down to really though is a bunch of GODS “KIDS” fighting over the “RED” and the “GREEN” M&M's. I personally think its quite silly.
Lastly you linked some sites that are supposed to explain what? See…this is yet another example of where you have “Gotten something out of something” That in our opinion makes virtually no sense…as one other posters already stated…he don't even know what it was you were trying to prove with those links. And that they leave a lot to be desired.
But I still love you
And I only ask that next time you get ready to answer me a question…answer it. I'm not a debater…I don't want to debate with you, life is like a vapor here today and gone tomorrow…so even if I did want to debate with you…I don't have time to…life is to short.
If you know something…just say it. If you believe something just say it. You don't have to beat around the bush and expect people to assume what your trying to say…Is indeed what you meant…lots of misinterpreted statements can be developed that way. Thats really only being successful at giving birth to more confusion.
samuelYou say…
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If you have discovered a truth it would probably be better to teach your fellow brothers and sisters of that truth. I've read your debates with T8 and you seem to enjoy presenting yourself as someone that has the answer for everything even when you don't….like I said…your a good debater.Ha. Read your own post because that is exactly what you are doing. You bring up these questions assuming you have the answer to all things. Why dont you address the scriptures he gave you? Instead you just continue to sidestep the scriptures he gave you. What is your interpretation of Phil 2:5-7 and John 1:1 or John 20:28. If you read those scriptures without on bias and take them litterally what do they say?
You are the one here assuming you have the answers to everything.!
Quote (t8 @ Oct. 27 2007,23:03) Quote and He is Lord of all (Acts 10:36). Jesus is Lord of all because of the following:
Acts 2:36
“Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”They were cut to the heart not because they crucified God, but because they crucified the one who God MADE Lord and Christ.
So God has made Jesus Lord.
It is written and therefore we should accept that, if we are to be disciples and followers of the truth.
Jesus being Lord was never to be understood that he is God, rather that God made him Lord.
Again it is simple to comprehend, unless something else gets in the way of the simplicity, such as a conflicting doctrine.
t8This was after his ressurection when all power and authority was given back to him.
Phil 2:5-8
And besides that is a cute way to try and disprove the trinity.
But what about this….
Pss 110:1
The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.Matt 22:41
While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them,
42 Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The Son of David.
43 He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying,
44 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?
45 If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?
46 And no man was able to answer him a word, neither durst any man from that day forth ask him any more questions.You yourself says Yeshua pre-exist, then according to this statement by Yeshua was David calling him Lord?
Or do you like those who were trying to trip him up not have have an answer also?
Quote (t8 @ Oct. 27 2007,23:05) Quote (Samuel @ Oct. 27 2007,11:05) Are you serious? At best this scripture stats simply that JESUS was “Pre-existent” in the “Form of GOD” notice that is does not say “AS GOD” but it says instead “In the FORM of GOD” Now…I don't know about you but what I get from reading that is that JESUS existed in the same manner that GOD exist now. Which is in SPIRIT. I know that there is “One” GOD, which is spirit…and “No man hath seen GOD at any time”. So…At best this scripture stats that Jesus existed with GOD as SPIRIT…or in the same fashion that GOD exists. And just because JESUS emptied himself and became poor…don't mean that GOD did. And what about the Holy Spirit? Why does Jesus pray to GOD?
Why does Jesus Call GOD “His” GOD?
Why does he not know the day or hour when he will return to get his church?
Why does GOD tell him that he will make his enemy's his Footstool? If GOD is Jesus…and Jesus has already Risen to return to his status as GOD as this doctrine would have us believe…then why does GOD need someone or something to make his enemy's his footstool?The doctrine just don't add up…I'm sorry. There are too many questions that arise or need to be explained with a Oneness or a Trinity belief. Which really its super silly IMO. Oneness believe that GOD is GOD, Jesus is GOD, and the Holy Spirit is GOD…and they all exist in “One” Being or Deity. Trinity believe that GOD is GOD, Jesus is GOD, and the Holy Spirit is GOD and they are “Three” Different Beings or Deity's…but basically both of these doctrines are pretty much saying the same thing…that they are all god. Oneness just claims they only serve “ONE” GOD because They believe they are all “ONE” but they are not. Jesus is NOT GOD. He just is not…I do not believe it is so. God help me if I'm wrong. JESUS is GODS SON. Just like I am my Dad's SON. So is JESUS GODS SON.
Its really not that hard to understand. Really its not. It's pretty simple.
Yes…I do agree there is ONE ALMIGHTY GOD…the I AM THAT I AM GOD. But, Jesus is not that GOD…He is that GODS SON.
How can people not understand this?
I can't see how people can't understand this?
Exactly Samuel. Good points.It is amazingly simple to understand, but many do not like simplicity perhaps it offends their intellectual pride. They don't like the fact that God's foolishness is greater than mans wisdom.
Many would rather go with a complicated a doctrine instead, even so complicated that it makes no sense to anyone, like the Trinity doctrine.
Then they excuse the fact that the doctrine cannot be comprehended by saying, “God is beyond our comprehension”.
It is true that God is beyond comprehension, but it is also true that God has revealed himself and part of that revelation is scripture. God wouldn't reveal a doctrine that we could never understand because if we were to accept that, then we could accept any amount of foolishness and false teachings that make no sense. And guess what? That has happened. Because Jesus is God to them, then to some of them, Mary becomes the Mother of God. Then some even accept that they can pray to saints, because they can pray to God's mother. The foolishness just creates more foolishness, and in order to sustain lies, more lies are invented.
When God reveals, it is because he wants us to understand. That is why prophecy is a greater gift than tongues. Prophecy can be understood and tongues cannot unless there is interpretation.
t8You say…
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Then they excuse the fact that the doctrine cannot be comprehended by saying, “God is beyond our comprehension”.Isnt that exactly what you were saying to the Unitarians?
Quote (Morningstar @ Oct. 27 2007,23:10) Quote (Samuel @ Oct. 27 2007,11:28) Well…brother I've really been doing some praying and some studying….I mean you just don't know. I've had some things laid on my heart.
I can tell you what the answer to all my questions are…some won't agree with me or believe me…but nonetheless I can tell you…
Gene already answered them…the answer is quite simple.
JESUS IS NOT GOD! GOD IS GOD…and JESUS IS HIS SON!
Pretty cool eh?
Exactly what the first few generations of Christians believed. It's amazing how you can see the “evolution” of the trinity doctrine through the writings of the early church.Even with these writings. Even with the consent of scholars. And even with the early churches view following scripture more closely and more literally, our dear brothers the trinitarians ond oneness folks just won't budge.
MSFunny you should say that. There is no mentioning of other gods in the NT unless you want to count the false ones like satan or where men were eaten with worms or simply denied such or idols.
It seems to me the doctrines of Henotheism and Arianism began to develop around the time Arius and other opposers of the diety of Yeshua “The One true God” according to Jn 1:1 and John 20:28 and 1 Jn 5:20 and Rev 1:8 and the early church Fathers like Ignatius.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 28 2007,05:00) Quote (Morningstar @ Oct. 27 2007,23:10) Quote (Samuel @ Oct. 27 2007,11:28) Well…brother I've really been doing some praying and some studying….I mean you just don't know. I've had some things laid on my heart.
I can tell you what the answer to all my questions are…some won't agree with me or believe me…but nonetheless I can tell you…
Gene already answered them…the answer is quite simple.
JESUS IS NOT GOD! GOD IS GOD…and JESUS IS HIS SON!
Pretty cool eh?
Exactly what the first few generations of Christians believed. It's amazing how you can see the “evolution” of the trinity doctrine through the writings of the early church.Even with these writings. Even with the consent of scholars. And even with the early churches view following scripture more closely and more literally, our dear brothers the trinitarians ond oneness folks just won't budge.
MSFunny you should say that. There is no mentioning of other gods in the NT unless you want to count the false ones like satan or where men were eaten with worms or simply denied such or idols.
It seems to me the doctrines of Henotheism and Arianism began to develop around the time Arius and other opposers of the diety of Yeshua “The One true God” according to Jn 1:1 and John 20:28 and 1 Jn 5:20 and Rev 1:8 and the early church Fathers like Ignatius.
MSBTW
Maybe you can give me an example of one of the Disciples or the Apostles or any Believer in the NT calling a man or an angel or any other being “god”.
Is there an example we can follow?
Before you say Yeshua in Jn 10 he was simply refering to a quote of the Pss calling ungodly men and judges god therefore rebuking the heritics for saying he was the Son of God.
Heck the NT does that , it calls satan a god.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 26 2007,16:36) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 26 2007,14:20) Toshab….> I agree with you on the Idolatry of Trinitarinism, God plainly said ” You shall have No other God Besides Me”.
Representing any other person as the Almighty God is IDOLATRY.
IMO…….gene
GBIdolatry would be worshipping a false God would it not?
GBYou didnt answer my question?
Samuel;
Recently, what I've been realizing is that while some scriptures may be reasonably interpreted that Jesus is God such as John 1:1, John 20:28, or Phil 2:5-8, these scriptures to not given the expressive explanations that Jesus taught. For instance, he said, I came down from heaven not to do mine own will but the will of him who sent me. Jesus is showing us that the Father has authority over him. Jesus said he kept the commandments of his Father. He said the doctrine was not his, but his Father. Notice, Jesus doesn't even make a claim that the doctrine is his, too, or equally his, too. Jesus worships the Father, the Father does not worship Jesus. Once you see all these depictions of Christ relationship with his Father you see very clearly that God the Father is over his Son, whom some also refer to God, without any clarification of how their relationship is characterized above. While it's sincere and innocent, you've come to the place where you understand there much more to the truth the Jesus is Lord than meets the eye at first glance.
You'll notice that Trinitarians never expound upon the scriptures that characterize Christ relationship with his Father. Jesus didn't qualify any of those characteristics either like some assert. For instance, he said that because he was on earth. That's the big lie to watch out for. It's a major twist that must be used by every trinitarian because the scriptures are loaded with truths of Christ being subject to his Father.
Take Care
Steven
I'm really not interested in getting in a debating contest with people about it.
Actually I had a post I was going to …but the page refreshed and I lost it…and I don't feel like retyping it…its really not worth telling someone the same thing over and over again if they are not going to get it anyway.
The Oneness and Trinity battle is just as bad as the Baptist and Pentecostal battle. It's all in the name of GOD that they get mad argue with one another and profess to be Christians. I will have no part in it.
God bless you all.
Quote (Mr. Steve @ Oct. 28 2007,07:21) Samuel; Recently, what I've been realizing is that while some scriptures may be reasonably interpreted that Jesus is God such as John 1:1, John 20:28, or Phil 2:5-8, these scriptures to not given the expressive explanations that Jesus taught. For instance, he said, I came down from heaven not to do mine own will but the will of him who sent me. Jesus is showing us that the Father has authority over him. Jesus said he kept the commandments of his Father. He said the doctrine was not his, but his Father. Notice, Jesus doesn't even make a claim that the doctrine is his, too, or equally his, too. Jesus worships the Father, the Father does not worship Jesus. Once you see all these depictions of Christ relationship with his Father you see very clearly that God the Father is over his Son, whom some also refer to God, without any clarification of how their relationship is characterized above. While it's sincere and innocent, you've come to the place where you understand there much more to the truth the Jesus is Lord than meets the eye at first glance.
You'll notice that Trinitarians never expound upon the scriptures that characterize Christ relationship with his Father. Jesus didn't qualify any of those characteristics either like some assert. For instance, he said that because he was on earth. That's the big lie to watch out for. It's a major twist that must be used by every trinitarian because the scriptures are loaded with truths of Christ being subject to his Father.
Take Care
Steven
mr steveYou say…
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Recently, what I've been realizing is that while some scriptures may be reasonably interpreted that Jesus is God such as John 1:1, John 20:28, or Phil 2:5-8, these scriptures to not given the expressive explanations that Jesus taught.So John and Paul contradicts Jesus teaching. Sorry my friend you are denying the inspired scriptures if you say their words are not true.
Let me give you an example of what you are doing.
Jesus said…
For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. Jn 6:38
Now like the Unitarians I could say that because Jesus was born from above that is what he meant, not that he pre-existed.
Yet you would say… “No, Jesus is litterally saying that he came down from heaven”.
You are doing exactly the same thing with John 1:1, 20:28, 1 Jn 5:20, Rev 1:8, or Isa 9:6 as the Unitarians are with Jn 6:38.
How can you accuse Unitarians of doing exactly what you are doing?
Besides how does their words contradict Jesus? Because they say he is God? God is a title that describes a particular type of being, but you seem to think that whenever God appears in the Bible it means the Father.
Look at this one…
Rom 8:9
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.Paul out of the same breath is saying the Spirit of God is the “Spirit of Christ”, Christos which means Messiah.
Was this a slip of the tongue? No.
For he also says…
2 Cor 13:5
Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?Notice it dosnt say just “Christ” but it says Jesus Christ is in you. How is that? A mere man dwells in 1000s of believers world wide and can be among two or three at the same time?
Just so you know the Spirit of God is also the Spirit of Yeshua Paul writes…
Phil 1:19
For I know that this shall turn to my salvation through your prayer, and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus ChristYou say…
Quote
For instance, he said, I came down from heaven not to do mine own will but the will of him who sent me. Jesus is showing us that the Father has authority over him. Jesus said he kept the commandments of his Father. He said the doctrine was not his, but his Father. Notice, Jesus doesn't even make a claim that the doctrine is his, too, or equally his, too. Jesus worships the Father, the Father does not worship Jesus. Once you see all these depictions of Christ relationship with his Father you see very clearly that God the Father is over his Son, whom some also refer to God, without any clarification of how their relationship is characterized above. While it's sincere and innocent, you've come to the place where you understand there much more to the truth the Jesus is Lord than meets the eye at first glance.Everything you say here is post “Incarnation” after he came in the flesh and was born a man.
Paul gives us the explanation for this in Phil 2:5-7.
He emptied himself and came to do the will of the Father as a man according to Heb 10.
But what do you think about this scripture and his relationship with the Father?
Jn 5:19
Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvelWait a minute, that sounds like double talk. First he says…
The Son can do nothing of himself
Yet he says…
but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
So is Jesus contradicting himself? No. He is simply saying that he will do nothing unless it is the Fathers will.
Tell me what kind of being would it take to do all the things the Father does? For that is what it says.
Unitarians as well as yourself have taken the first part of Jn 5:19 to make Jesus out to be some kind of a puppet on a string who had no power or ability of his own.
This is a lie. Jesus had power to take up his own life, to raise himself from the dead. Sure he said this commandment he recieved of the Father because he was doing the Fathers will, and according to Phil 2 being found in fashion as a man he humbled himself becoming obedient even unto death.
But the world did not know who this Jesus was, even satan and his demons didnt know who he was, if they had of they wouldnt have crucified the “Lord of Glory”. HMMM? Who was this “Lord of Glory”.
But we have men believing the demons that Jesus is a Son of God like you and I.
That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. Jn 1:9,10.Yeshua had all of the power of the Father at his disposal anytime he wanted it for he could have called legions of angels to defend him at his death but did not.
Its a distortion of the truth and a lie from hell to say Jesus the creator of all things had no power, he simply gave up his will to do the Fathers over his own. So when yoiu rea
d “I can of my ownself do nothing” he is saying he will not do anything apart from the Father. Hello Godhead. Neither does the Father nor the Spirit do anything without the Son.Do you know of anything the Father has done apart from the Son?
And all the Glory and the power Jesus had with the Father in eternity was given back to him after he accomplished the Fathers will. Now all things are subject to him as they were in the beginning when he laid the foundation of the world.
And soon he will subject himself to the Fathers will one more time and God will be all in all once again.
But what being do you know that can do “ALL” things that the Father shows him. For to do all things the Father shows him he would have to be God.
Jn 3:35
The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.Again, What being could hold “All” things in his hand? Not only that… “All things are upheld by the word of (Yeshuas) Power”. Heb 1:3
You say…
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You'll notice that Trinitarians never expound upon the scriptures that characterize Christ relationship with his Father. Jesus didn't qualify any of those characteristics either like some assert. For instance, he said that because he was on earth. That's the big lie to watch out for. It's a major twist that must be used by every trinitarian because the scriptures are loaded with truths of Christ being subject to his Father.I just expounded on a scriptures that characterizes the relationship Christ has with the Father. But I have extolled on him the honour due his name, whereas you have like the Arians made him out to be just a puppet on a string who had no power of his own by making him just another anointed man or prophet.
The big lie is to deny that…
In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God. Jn 1:1
Trinitarians seek to exalt Yeshua as he is “With God as God”.
Thomas knew who he was and Yeshua blessed him for his remark.
The Father calls him Lord and God also. Ps 110:1 and Heb 1:8.
Truly Yeshua is my Lord and my God.
Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 18 2007,05:23) Quote (Morningstar @ Oct. 16 2007,22:52)
i had a couple thoughts1. that was spoken at a time prior to the incarnation so nope he wasnt a man. so he is saying he isnt a man, men lie. doesnt mean he couldnt choose to become a man in the future..
If this supports your belief, go ahead. Just know that scripture contradicts you.Quote 2. God has changed his mind before in the OT. so what do we do with that?
Did He literally “change His mind” or did He leave the people an option? Keep doing what you are doing and face the consequences, or repent, and I won't do what I said I would do. It was always predicated on man's repentence. None of this would indicate that He would change His mind about not being man, or son of man. What does this have to do with repentence? After all, before Yeshua was born, the people were not too repentent.Quote 3. Maybe this? Sometimes El is speaking sometimes YHVH. El never changes his mind and never assumes a form. Nobody has ever seen or heard him just ask Jesus. However, YHVH was seen by Moses, Daniel, and John. And by many many in his human avatar.
Yes, and we're supposed to say “Must be El speaking here, out of character for YHWH”. Sound's like a “pick and choose” theology to me. You and Mark Twain might be related“It ain't those parts of the Bible that I can't understand that bother me, it is the parts that I do understand “
Hi All,
Welcome newbies! You will find open and good discussion here at heaven.net. That is why I enjoy it so much.I have been in AZ on vacation for the last 2 weeks. I was doing catch-up tonight an so far the only things I want to comment on are these:
First I'd like to say to Samuel, I really enjoyed your posts on your personal search for the truth. Usually you are pretty qiuet. It is nice to hear from you and know you are searching. I know YHWH our Elohim will make known to you the things you search for, if you promose to make good on what He shows you, and not let it go to waste.
Then I wanted to share this with whomever thinks that “no man” has ever seen Elohim. Y'shua says that only those whom He (Y'shua) sows Elohim to have seen Him. YHWH is our Elohim. Moses spoke to Him face to face as a friend because His belief in the Messiah showed Him to Moses.
I have some things to do here at home. I was taking the Sabbath rest and have to get back to worldly things, like buying some dog food!
This Sabbath was awesome. I hope you all who keep it had an awesome Spirit lead one as well!!!!
Love in Messiah Y'shua, Son of Elohim! Glory to YHWH our Father!
Laurel
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 28 2007,05:17) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 26 2007,16:36) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 26 2007,14:20) Toshab….> I agree with you on the Idolatry of Trinitarinism, God plainly said ” You shall have No other God Besides Me”.
Representing any other person as the Almighty God is IDOLATRY.
IMO…….gene
GBIdolatry would be worshipping a false God would it not?
GBYou didnt answer my question?
WJ……> Don't you worship Jesus as your God, and totally ignore what Jesus said “For (THOU) art the (ONLY) true GOD”.So tell me WJ, which God do you worship, God the Father, God the Son, or God the Holy Spirit.
And while your at it please tell us who was Jesus Worshiping. Was it His self.
And while your at it please explain what Jesus meant when He said “I am going to my Father and your Father, and My God and Your God.”
And also what he meant when He said He could do (NOTHING) by His self.
And also what did He mean when He Said the Father was GREATER the Him.
And lets not forget this scripture, 1 Cor 15:27-28…> For He (God) Has put all things under His (Jesus) feet”, (BUT) when He (GOD) say's “All things are put under Him”, It is (EVIDENT) that He (GOD) who put all things under Him is (EXCEPTED). Now when all things are made subject to Him (Jesus) then the Son(JESUS) (HIMSELF) will (ALSO) be (SUBJECT) to Him (GOD) who put all things under Him (JESUS), that GOD may be all in all.
WJ, you and Isa1:18 have never accepted these Scriptures as truth because if you did you would not believe in the TRINITY in all honesty.
I have to agree with Samuel all the things you and Isa 1:18 produce are just lame brain reasons to Skirit the straight forward Scriptures given to you both, and it's really a waste of time to debate the issues with you both it never goes anywhere.
The only advantage i can see in this is that others who are being lead by the Father to question the Trinity Doctrine my be given some Help by these debates, but that's all.Other then that a agree with Samuel. Its all shuck, as a good old friend of my once said.
don't mean to be disgracefull, my prayer is that the Father will cause You and Isa 1:18 eyes to open and cause you to raconcider your positions……….peace to you both……geneQuote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 28 2007,14:42) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 28 2007,05:17) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 26 2007,16:36) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 26 2007,14:20) Toshab….> I agree with you on the Idolatry of Trinitarinism, God plainly said ” You shall have No other God Besides Me”.
Representing any other person as the Almighty God is IDOLATRY.
IMO…….gene
GBIdolatry would be worshipping a false God would it not?
GBYou didnt answer my question?
WJ……> Don't you worship Jesus as your God, and totally ignore what Jesus said “For (THOU) art the (ONLY) true GOD”.So tell me WJ, which God do you worship, God the Father, God the Son, or God the Holy Spirit.
And while your at it please tell us who was Jesus Worshiping. Was it His self.
And while your at it please explain what Jesus meant when He said “I am going to my Father and your Father, and My God and Your God.”
And also what he meant when He said He could do (NOTHING) by His self.
And also what did He mean when He Said the Father was GREATER the Him.
And lets not forget this scripture, 1 Cor 15:27-28…> For He (God) Has put all things under His (Jesus) feet”, (BUT) when He (GOD) say's “All things are put under Him”, It is (EVIDENT) that He (GOD) who put all things under Him is (EXCEPTED). Now when all things are made subject to Him (Jesus) then the Son(JESUS) (HIMSELF) will (ALSO) be (SUBJECT) to Him (GOD) who put all things under Him (JESUS), that GOD may be all in all.
WJ, you and Isa1:18 have never accepted these Scriptures as truth because if you did you would not believe in the TRINITY in all honesty.
I have to agree with Samuel all the things you and Isa 1:18 produce are just lame brain reasons to Skirit the straight forward Scriptures given to you both, and it's really a waste of time to debate the issues with you both it never goes anywhere.
The only advantage i can see in this is that others who are being lead by the Father to question the Trinity Doctrine my be given some Help by these debates, but that's all.Other then that a agree with Samuel. Its all shuck, as a good old friend of my once said.
don't mean to be disgracefull, my prayer is that the Father will cause You and Isa 1:18 eyes to open and cause you to raconcider your positions……….peace to you both……gene
GbShuck!
Thats a new one.You must be speaking to a Modalist!
You say…
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I have to agree with Samuel all the things you and Isa 1:18 produce are just lame brain reasons to Skirit the straight forward Scriptures given to you both, and it's really a waste of time to debate the issues with you both it never goes anywhere.Yeshua says…
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship (proskuneo) him in spirit and in truth. Jn 4:24The Greek word for “worship” is 'proskuneo' which means…
1) to kiss the hand to (towards) one, in token of reverence
2) among the Orientals, esp. the Persians, to fall upon the knees and touch the ground with the forehead as an expression of profound reverence
How about these scriptures…
Matt 8:2
And, behold, there came a leper and worshipped (Proskuneo) him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean.Matt 9:18
While he spake these things unto them, behold, there came a certain ruler, and worshipped (Proskuneo) him, saying, My daughter is even now dead: but come and lay thy hand upon her, and she shall live.Matt 14:33
Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped (Proskuneo) him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God.Matt 15:25
Then came she and worshipped (Proskuneo) him, saying, Lord, help me.Matt 20:20
Then came to him the mother of Zebedees children with her sons, worshipping (Proskuneo) him, and desiring a certain thing of him.Matt 28:9
And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped (Proskuneo) him.Mk 5:6
But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped (Proskuneo) him,Lk 24:52
And they worshipped (Proskuneo) him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy:Jn 9:38
And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped (Proskuneo) him.Notice all the “Worship” (Prokuneo) being given to Yeshua.
Yet not once can you find Yeshua saying “dont worship me worship God”.
The Amazing thing GB is, Yeshua even uses the same word “Proskeneo” in Jn 4 in telling us to worship the Father in Spirit and in truth.
Now he could have used a different Greek word for honour or respect etc but he didnt.
Since some would say Proskuneo is used for honor or respect, then maybe they can give me a scripture that shows this word being directed toward any other being except Yeshua and the Father where it was not discouraged or is toward a false deity.
Check these out…
Jn 12:20
And there were certain Greeks among them that came up to worship Proskuneo) at the feast:Acts 8:27
And he arose and went: and, behold, a man of Ethiopia, an eunuch of great authority under Candace queen of the Ethiopians, who had the charge of all her treasure, and had come to Jerusalem for to worship (Proskuneo),Acts 24:11
Because that thou mayest understand, that there are yet but twelve days since I went up to Jerusalem for to worship (Proskuneo).So we see here examples of the Jews “worshipping” Proskueno God. The Word means “Worship”.
Paul uses the word…
1 Cor 14:25
And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship (Proskuneo) God, and report that God is in you of a truthThen the writer of Hebrews tells us…
Heb 1:6
And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship (Proskuneo) him.So we see here the Father says the Angels are to “Proskuneo” him.
GB do you think it is Ido
latry for the Angels to “Proskuneo” Yeshua?Are we higher than the Angels yet?
Notice my friend what is going on in heaven right now…
Rev 5:6
And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.
8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;
12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.
13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
14 And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.Notice who is sitting in the midst of the throne with the Father and being praised with the Father.
There is a lot of praise and honour and glory and blessing going on in heaven right now to the Father and and to the Lamb (Yeshua) sitting on the throne.
Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to recieve honour and glory and praise both now and forever more.
Sing a new song unto him. For you alone are worthy O God to recieve blessing and honour and glory both now and forever.
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