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Quote Now…before anyone thinks I'm personally attacking them…let me say…I do feel that the Trinitarians and the UPC's/Apostolic (ONENESS) people really do love GOD….and are super sincere…but after hard praying and hard studying…I believe that they are both wrong in their belief. I do feel that GOD knows that they mean well, I don't feel that he would have them perish…unless they have of course been showed the truth and refused it…then you might have some problems.
Most Christians that study and pray regularly are sincere about what they believe. Jesus spoke of a time when some would put you to death and think they were doing God's service. Then we saw the fulfillment of it in the book of Acts. But God can convert anyone. Look at Paul who once persecuted the Church who later died for his faith in Christ.
I contend that if the masses were that concerned to know the truth instead of just accepting what they are taught, many would change. God is the only Judge with respect to what a person believes and why they believe. James said be not many teachers because the teachers shall receive the greater judgment.
What's not being taught in churches today with respect to who Jesus actually is as the Son of God, and not God and equal with God, is spiritual recklessness by the leaders of the church world. But the learned within the church that profess the Trinity with great hesitation with respect to if it's indeed true will have to answer to God for it. After all, how can you believe a doctrine that you cannot explain, which is how most sermons on the Trinity start out. Perhaps it's because it's not espoused in the scriptures. Our churches should be shouting that Christ is the Lamb of God, the Son of God. When they declare Christ is God what they do is undermine the entire work of God in Christ because if Christ is actually God then how can we see him as our example to follow.
For instance, most Christians have never been taught that Christ himself lived by faith. It's everywhere in the gospels. He was constantly implying that if they had his kind of faith they could see God do wonderful things. Paul said he lived by the faith of the Son of God.
If Christ didn't walk in faith then he never really prayed he just consulted God. But Christ prayed in faith and received. Faith actually is believing to receive something specifically, not abstract or general. Substantially everyone that went to Jesus to receive had to tell him what they wanted to receive. If you stop and think about it, how do you know your prayers are granted if you don't know what you asked God to grant.
God Bless you Samuel
Steven
Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 27 2007,03:51) Hey IS, Good to “see” you 
.
Likewise…Quote I have one question related to this: if Yeshua did not know because he took on humanity, what about the Holy Spirit? The verse specifically says only the Father knows. Mat 24:36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone
Therefore, if your argument that Yeshua is God but does not know because of his humanity, what limits the Holy Spirit as another “person” of God, from knowing as well?
Here's a couple of links that address that issue. Sorry to be lazy but it appears that I have a few posts to answer on this thread….http://www.carm.org/diff/Matt24_36.htm
http://forananswer.blogspot.com/2007….it.htmlCheers
PaulQuote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 27 2007,04:25) Isa 1:18…..> you did not answer Samuel's question, and how could God empty Himself of being GOD. Your answers are ilogical and are a deversion from the specific question, which was How could Jesus be God as you trinitarians say
and not Know the time of the end.The most straight forward and Honest answer is, because He is not God. And He never said He was by the way.
IMO…….gene
Incorrect. I did answer his question which pertained to Yeshua's lack of knowledge of His return, relative to the Father. Here it is again, please read it carefully this time.Quote (Samuel @ Oct. 26 2007,17:52) Another thing….if JESUS IS GOD will someone please answer me this question…PLEASE:
Why does JESUS not know when the Father…(GOD), will tell him to come back for his church.
BTW, I did not infer that Yeshua did empty Himself of “being God” (nor does scripture). That was exclusively your assumption Gene.Isa 1:18…..> I didn't say He emptyed Himself of Being God, Because He never was God. Your assumption of the words, (Being in the form of God,) meant He was God is wrong. That verse is more acurately rendered (being in the nature of God) But in either case it does (NOT) say He (WAS) God does it. So you are forcing the text to say that, Isa 1:18.
You trinitarians always have to force texts to make it say somthing it does not spicifically say.
Just the way I see it Isa 1:18……..and my hope is that God will show you this truth brother………gene
Quote (Is 1:18 @ Oct. 26 2007,22:22) Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 27 2007,03:51) Hey IS, Good to “see” you .
Likewise…Quote I have one question related to this: if Yeshua did not know because he took on humanity, what about the Holy Spirit? The verse specifically says only the Father knows. Mat 24:36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone
Therefore, if your argument that Yeshua is God but does not know because of his humanity, what limits the Holy Spirit as another “person” of God, from knowing as well?
Here's a couple of links that address that issue. Sorry to be lazy but it appears that I have a few posts to answer on this thread….http://www.carm.org/diff/Matt24_36.htm
http://forananswer.blogspot.com/2007….it.htmlCheers
Paul
Hey IS,I'll patiently await YOUR answer, because frankly, those two links were grasping at some serious straws. Especially the CARM one. I don't even think the CARM one really even addressed the HS at all other than the heading!
CARM is one of the weakest apologetics sites on the Web. I know YOU can do better than that because I've seen it
.Take your time though, I've been less frequent on here as well.
LG&LP,
KevinQuote (Samuel @ Oct. 27 2007,11:05) Are you serious? At best this scripture stats simply that JESUS was “Pre-existent” in the “Form of GOD” notice that is does not say “AS GOD” but it says instead “In the FORM of GOD” Now…I don't know about you but what I get from reading that is that JESUS existed in the same manner that GOD exist now. Which is in SPIRIT.
Philippians 2:5-8
5Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.Morphe – Perhaps from the base of G3313 (through the idea of adjustment of parts); shape; figuratively nature: – form. (Strong’s Concordance).
“always signifies a form which truly and fully expresses the being which underlies it” (James Hope Moulton and George Milligan, The Vocabulary of the Greek Testament [Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1930], p. 417).
Paul does not say simply, “He was God.” He says, “He was in the form of God,” employing a turn of speech which throws emphasis upon Our Lord’s possession of the specific quality of God. “Form” is a term which expresses the sum of those characterizing qualities which make a thing the precise thing that it is….When Our Lord is said to be in “the form of God,” therefore, He is declared, in the most express manner possible, to be all that God is, to possess the whole fulness of attributes which make God God. (B.B. Warfield, The Person and Work of Christ [Presbyterian and Reformed, 1950], 39)
Being (uparxwn). Rather, “existing,” present active participle of uparxw. In the form of God (en morfh qeou). Morfh means the essential attributes as shown in the form. In his preincarnate state Christ possessed the attributes of God and so appeared to those in heaven who saw him. Here is a clear statement by Paul of the deity of Christ.(Robertsons NT Word Pictures)
So Paul’s clear conveyance here is a continuousness (Being or “Huparcho” stresses the essence of a person's nature – the continuous state or condition of something) of the Logos existing in the very nature (whole fullness of the divine attributes) of God. If you exist in the “morph” of God, you have the exact same nature as God and for all intents and purposes you ARE God. It's just another way of saying it.
Quote I know that there is “One” GOD, which is spirit…and “No man hath seen GOD at any time”. So…At best this scripture stats that Jesus existed with GOD as SPIRIT…or in the same fashion that GOD exists.
If that were true then angels would also be said to have existed in the form of God, as they are spirit beings and are also in God's presence. But never is this kind of language applied to the created Hosts if Heaven.Quote And just because JESUS emptied himself and became poor…don't mean that GOD did. And what about the Holy Spirit?
The Father and Holy Spirit did not empty themselves and become bond servants. I agree.Quote Why does Jesus pray to GOD?
Several reasons, I suppose. To commune with His Father. To set an example for His followers….Quote Why does Jesus Call GOD “His” GOD?
Because He was. He was a man, born under the law (Gal 4:4) and in that regard subject to all of it. Had He not taken the Father as His God He, as a man, would have been a trangressor of that law…..Quote Why does he not know the day or hour when he will return to get his church?
Because He emptied Himself of the independant use of the attributes associated with divinity…I thought I had answered that one….Quote Why does GOD tell him that he will make his enemy's his Footstool?
Why not? How is that a refutation of the trinity?Quote If GOD is Jesus…and Jesus has already Risen to return to his status as GOD as this doctrine would have us believe…then why does GOD need someone or something to make his enemy's his footstool?
How do you know that Yeshua needed someone to do this for Him?Quote The doctrine just don't add up…I'm sorry. There are too many questions that arise or need to be explained with a Oneness or a Trinity belief.
It's not up to me or anyone else to convince you of Who or What Yeshua is. But you should weigh the evidence carefully as a counterfeit Yeshua will not save anyone.Quote Oneness believe that GOD is GOD, Jesus is GOD, and the Holy Spirit is GOD…and they all exist in “One” Being or Deity.
Not quite. Modalists (AKA Oneness believers) believe that the Father, Son and Spirit are three seperate forms or “modes” of the same person.Quote Trinity believe that GOD is GOD, Jesus is GOD, and the Holy Spirit is GOD and they are “Three” Different Beings or Deity's…
Again, that's not quite accurate Samuel. Trinitarians believe that the three persons of the father, Son and Spirit comprise the one being, YHWH. They do not believe there are three seperate “beings” that make up God.Quote but basically both of these doctrines are pretty much saying the same thing…that they are all god.
No. Oneness and trinitarianism are manifestly different. I think you need t
o do a little more research before you draw your conclusions about these doctrines.Quote Oneness just claims they only serve “ONE” GOD because They believe they are all “ONE” but they are not. Jesus is NOT GOD. He just is not…I do not believe it is so. God help me if I'm wrong.
Yes, I pray that God would help you in this regard.Quote JESUS is GODS SON. Just like I am my Dad's SON. So is JESUS GODS SON.
You are using a human construct here and applying it to God. We should avoid doing this if possible. Why should we think that Yeshua is God's Son in exactly the same way human sons are? Tell me Samuel, in what sense is Yeshua the Son of God?Quote Its really not that hard to understand. Really its not. It's pretty simple.
You might be right…What does it mean that Yeshua is the “Son of God”? What does scripture tell us? Maybe we should start there and see if it is as simple as you affirm.Quote Yes…I do agree there is ONE ALMIGHTY GOD…the I AM THAT I AM GOD. But, Jesus is not that GOD…He is that GODS SON.
How can people not understand this?
I can't see how people can't understand this?
Yeshua is the “Son of” man and “man”. One does not invalidate the other.Blessings
Quote (Samuel @ Oct. 27 2007,11:11) Why is Jesus at the right hand of the Father?
Why does GOD state from Heaven that JESUS is his SON in whom he is well pleased…and send a dove in the form of his spirit to represent the HOLY GHOST/or HOLY SPIRIT.Why do devils and unclean spirits refer to him as GODS SON? They obviously know who GOD is …but instead they refer to JESUS not as GOD…which is what the doctrines would have us believe…but as THE SON OF GOD.
These are all great question to ask a modalist….Quote (Mr. Steve @ Oct. 27 2007,11:15) Isaiah; How is your response inconsistent with the call of the question?
I'm not sure what you mean here.Quote Existing in the form of God is not God, it is the image of God. The Son is the express image of the Father, but subject to the Father in all things and always has been. All power Christ possessed was given to him from his Father.
If you research this I think you will find that Yeshua is only ever called by the term “image” after the incarnation. Therefore it's not legitimate to parallel these verses with Phil 2:5-7 (which is patently pre-incarnation in context).Quote On another note, I'm overjoyed that you see that Jesus existed with his Father before he emptied himself and came down from heaven.
It's obvious, isn't it? I can't fathom how anyone could conclude from scripture that Yeshua's existence began at His conception. Silly.Blessings
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 27 2007,15:57) Isa 1:18…..> I didn't say He emptyed Himself of Being God, Because He never was God. Your assumption of the words, (Being in the form of God,) meant He was God is wrong. That verse is more acurately rendered (being in the nature of God) But in either case it does (NOT) say He (WAS) God does it. So you are forcing the text to say that, Isa 1:18. You trinitarians always have to force texts to make it say somthing it does not spicifically say.
Just the way I see it Isa 1:18……..and my hope is that God will show you this truth brother………gene
What does “being in the nature of God” mean to you Gene?It's become quite clear to me that your a very good debater.
You've not really answered any of my questions but yet you've gracefully…sidestepped your way out of havening to answer anything.
What your trying to do is use a “Play of words to infer that you know something everyone else don't” And it would seem to me that it Highly entertains you to have people try to “Speculate” what it is that you feel that you know that other people don't.
I would assume that your a wonderful guy and and even better Christian.
If you have discovered a truth it would probably be better to teach your fellow brothers and sisters of that truth. I've read your debates with T8 and you seem to enjoy presenting yourself as someone that has the answer for everything even when you don't….like I said…your a good debater.
Thats the impression of yourself that you have successfully accomplished in instilling in me about you.
I would guess that you've taken debate class in High School or in College…or maybe your a politician. Nonetheless you've obviously learned superior debating skills from somewhere.To answer some of your questions:
I'm not as ignorant as you would have me to believe. Like I've said…I've read quite a few of your posts and debates with T8, and I've researched quite a few things from them.If you would quit trying to side step around every possible explanation…and rather just go ahead and explain yourself more clearly …you might find it would resolve a number of the refutes you might get from your posts.
I would assume that I'm trying to do what any capable “Man” would do with the knowledge he's been given…and given the scripture says “Man” was created in the “Likeness or Image” of GOD as well…A “Man” might assume that he could apply a “Model” of “Men” to describe the GOD he was created in the “Likeness of”.
What you are doing …is however trying to explore beyond the possibility of your given comprehension of things and assume that you can understand the ways of a “Divine Deity” …even though you really have no knowledge of how a Divine Deity works…Your Carnal Mind can really only ever understand Carnal thoughts at its current state. So man tries to assume that since “ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE” with GOD that it has to be a far more complicated venue that he underwent to do things. Even if he did…I very seriously doubt you'd be able to understand it. And, if you could understand the very mind of GOD or the way a Divine Deity works…It might confuse all your thoughts altogether:
Romans 11
33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable [are] his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?This scripture very clearly asks a “Infers” the question “For who hath known the mind of the Lord?”
Have you known the mind of the Lord? Have you been his counsellor?I'll do the same thing to you on verse 33 as you've done with us on your scripture quote…let you figure out what is supposed to mean.
What is all boils down to really though is a bunch of GODS “KIDS” fighting over the “RED” and the “GREEN” M&M's. I personally think its quite silly.
Lastly you linked some sites that are supposed to explain what? See…this is yet another example of where you have “Gotten something out of something” That in our opinion makes virtually no sense…as one other posters already stated…he don't even know what it was you were trying to prove with those links. And that they leave a lot to be desired.
But I still love you
And I only ask that next time you get ready to answer me a question…answer it. I'm not a debater…I don't want to debate with you, life is like a vapor here today and gone tomorrow…so even if I did want to debate with you…I don't have time to…life is to short.
If you know something…just say it. If you believe something just say it. You don't have to beat around the bush and expect people to assume what your trying to say…Is indeed what you meant…lots of misinterpreted statements can be developed that way. Thats really only being successful at giving birth to more confusion.Quote (Samuel @ Oct. 27 2007,19:19) What you are doing …is however trying to explore beyond the possibility of your given comprehension of things and assume that you can understand the ways of a “Divine Deity” …even though you really have no knowledge of how a Divine Deity works…Your Carnal Mind can really only ever understand Carnal thoughts at its current state. So man tries to assume that since “ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE” with GOD that it has to be a far more complicated venue that he underwent to do things. Even if he did…I very seriously doubt you'd be able to understand it. And, if you could understand the very mind of GOD or the way a Divine Deity works…It might confuse all your thoughts altogether:
Romans 11
33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable [are] his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
Divine deity? A real deity would, by default, be divine I would have thought….Samuel, without wanting to intentionally insult you, I think you need to do some home work in order to develop an accurate understanding of what it is trinitarians believe before you line us up. It's become plain to me that your current understanding is erroneous. I have answered (I think) all of your questions. And asked you a few in return, which you ignored. Here is just one I would like you to answer. Is Yeshua a created being? Yes or no?
ok…
fair is fair…if you can't find any questions you've not answered, I'll help you out:
Quote Quote
If GOD is Jesus…and Jesus has already Risen to return to his status as GOD as this doctrine would have us believe…then why does GOD need someone or something to make his enemy's his footstool?How do you know that Yeshua needed someone to do this for Him?
Bare in mind this is probably not one of the most important questions that I've asked you…however…it is still an example of how in this case you answered a question with a question. As if you want me to guess what your thinking.
Quote (Samuel @ Oct. 27 2007,19:19) It's become quite clear to me that your a very good debater. You've not really answered any of my questions but yet you've gracefully…sidestepped your way out of havening to answer anything.
What your trying to do is use a “Play of words to infer that you know something everyone else don't” And it would seem to me that it Highly entertains you to have people try to “Speculate” what it is that you feel that you know that other people don't.
I would assume that your a wonderful guy and and even better Christian.
If you have discovered a truth it would probably be better to teach your fellow brothers and sisters of that truth. I've read your debates with T8 and you seem to enjoy presenting yourself as someone that has the answer for everything even when you don't….like I said…your a good debater.
Thats the impression of yourself that you have successfully accomplished in instilling in me about you.
I would guess that you've taken debate class in High School or in College…or maybe your a politician. Nonetheless you've obviously learned superior debating skills from somewhere.
Samuel, I thunk you have been quite unfair here. I don't agree that I have been deliberately vague about what I believe and why I believe it. Before the debate with t8 even started I annotated my statement of beliefs in very plain language. I have done this (albeit in a fragmented fashion) on more than one occasion in several threads which you likely have not read. Samuel, I did not make personal observations about your character in any post I have written to you and I would appreciate it if you would reciprocate. Let's just stick to the issues at hand.Blessings
I'm a straight shooting person…really brother, not a debater. I'm not interested in debating. Quite frankly it gets my blood pressure up.
I'd much rather just exchange Views and Opinions.
Quote (Samuel @ Oct. 27 2007,20:00) ok… fair is fair…if you can't find any questions you've not answered, I'll help you out:
Quote Quote
If GOD is Jesus…and Jesus has already Risen to return to his status as GOD as this doctrine would have us believe…then why does GOD need someone or something to make his enemy's his footstool?How do you know that Yeshua needed someone to do this for Him?
Bare in mind this is probably not one of the most important questions that I've asked you…however…it is still an example of how in this case you answered a question with a question. As if you want me to guess what your thinking.
I'm not avoiding the question. The question had a false premise, namely Yeshua “needed” something to make his enemy's his footstool. Scripture does not record this.Quote (Samuel @ Oct. 27 2007,20:02) I'm a straight shooting person…really brother, not a debater. I'm not interested in debating. Quite frankly it gets my blood pressure up. I'd much rather just exchange Views and Opinions.
Okay. So we can leave the personal evaluations out of the dialogue then….Quote Quote (Samuel @ Oct. 27 2007,19:19)
What you are doing …is however trying to explore beyond the possibility of your given comprehension of things and assume that you can understand the ways of a “Divine Deity” …even though you really have no knowledge of how a Divine Deity works…Your Carnal Mind can really only ever understand Carnal thoughts at its current state. So man tries to assume that since “ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE” with GOD that it has to be a far more complicated venue that he underwent to do things. Even if he did…I very seriously doubt you'd be able to understand it. And, if you could understand the very mind of GOD or the way a Divine Deity works…It might confuse all your thoughts altogether:
Romans 11
33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable [are] his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?Divine deity? A real deity would, by default, be divine I would have thought….
Samuel, without wanting to intentionally insult you, I think you need to do some home work in order to develop an accurate understanding of what it is trinitarians believe before you line us up. It's become plain to me that your current understanding is erroneous. I have answered (I think) all of your questions. And asked you a few in return, which you ignored. Here is just one I would like you to answer. Is Yeshua a created being? Yes or no?
Divine Deity…You brought it up…you tell me…and from looking at when you last edited your post…it would seem that you've taken it out completely.
And your still trying to say that your more knowledgeable than me…yet providing no proof of it or answering any of my questions…you speak in riddles and answer questions with questions.And…yes…In my opinion JESUS was “Begotten” by GOD…which means in all practical purposes he “Came From” GOD. And if you want to use the “Term” “Created” then …cool works for me.
Quote Quote (Samuel @ Oct. 27 2007,20:00)
ok…fair is fair…if you can't find any questions you've not answered, I'll help you out:
Quote
Quote
If GOD is Jesus…and Jesus has already Risen to return to his status as GOD as this doctrine would have us believe…then why does GOD need someone or something to make his enemy's his footstool?How do you know that Yeshua needed someone to do this for Him?
Bare in mind this is probably not one of the most important questions that I've asked you…however…it is still an example of how in this case you answered a question with a question. As if you want me to guess what your thinking.
I'm not avoiding the question. The question had a false premise, namely Yeshua “needed” something to make his enemy's his footstool. Scripture does not record this.
Uh..yes it is written my friend:
Hebrews 1:13
But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
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