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You left the door open to LU where you say, ‘The son is from God’. LU can take that to mean ‘born from God and is therefore himself god’ as she wrongfully ideologieses.
I find that you need to write an essay to close all doors. I have learned over the years to open doors when they need to be opened and close them when when they need to be closed. One precept at a time, that way you can be thorough and build precept upon precept. I have in the past tried to do it all in one post, but I find that people generally do not have the patience to read long posts. I prefer to keep that style of writing as a main writing or opening post in a topic rather than a comment or reply post. That said, as far as Jesus coming from God, he said this as recorded in John 8:42 (English NIV).
“If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me.”
I guess if he could boldly state as much, then we should too. And I am sure that the Pharisees could have taken all kind of meaning from his words, but Jesus spoke words that not all could hear. That will happen and it is the way it is.
Blessings.
t8, I know you are right about the verse. What I commented on is that LU could use that (if unexplained) for her own excuse ideology that Jesus ‘CAME (as in Was Born) from God’. But I agree since you explained that it is her problem if she misinterprets (or rather, HIJACKS) Jesus’ own words and their meaning, just as the trinitarians misinterpret ‘Before Abraham was, I Am’.
Yes. t8, like how Pentecostals adopt the symbol of a dove to represent the Holy Spirit – DESPITE their belief in trinity that the Holy Spirit is a PERSON!!!
Moreover, the stranger fact that THERE WAS NO ‘DO E’ observed at the Pentecost event.
I do not view the Holy Spirit as a dove in form (like you I assume). To me, the Spirit descended like a dove (in graceful fashion upon Jesus).
t8, if there was any suggestion that I implied you thought that then I apologise. I believe what you believe in that the Holy Spirit descended on Jesus ‘in the manner’ of a dove. I have said so many many times.
‘In the manner of a dove’ is to mean that the spirit was gentle, light, a pleasant breeze, sanctifying, adoringly, with delicate reverence.
I made this point prominent in my argument concerning why Pentecostals claim a dove as their symbol of the Holy Spirit – even though they claim the Holy Spirit is a person.
More importantly that there was no ‘dove’ at the Pentecostal event. in fact, the Holy Spirit came in the manner of ‘tongues of fire and wind’. Why did they not adopt this view of their ‘third God’ if they were to claim the name ‘Pentecost’ and ‘Pentecostals’?
Then, God is immutable, does not ring true in that the Holy Spirit, for them and all trinitarians, changed to another form… breaking the absolute singularity of the being of God.
You will no dought have noticed the miriad omission of the Holy Spirit in Jesus’ mindful unity with the Father. … No mention of same (or any) unity with the Holy Spirit.
Of course, we must not leave this claim hanging as many will easily deride it: The Holy Spirit IS ‘The Spirit of the Father; the Spirit of the one God: YHWH’ and thus unity with God and Father is, ipso facto, unity with the Spirit of the Father; the spirit of YHWH God. The father’s spirit is united in mindfulness with Jesus christ’s own spirit so Christ Jesus can say, ‘Not my will but yours [Father]’. Jesus, knowing the pain and suffering – and DEATH – that was his in waiting momentarily desired ‘another way’ to reach the goal that was on offer to him: the rulership over creation. The willing subjection of his own will to god’s is a sign of honoured reverence to a greater mind.
A side comment – and one willingly dismissed by ALL TRINITARIANS and major scholars and theologians, is: ‘Why was Satan the steward of the created world’ such that he could ‘Give it to whomever he will’?
Responses, and NO RESPONSES, clearly show that this question is FEARED among those who wish to follow ‘another christ’ and deny the testament that Jesus brought from God the Father.
The true answer is that the Angels are the keepers and stewards by rank and file over the created world which is why Scriptures states that ‘The world to come will by no means be governed by Angels’. In fact, the new world to come will be ruled over by Jesus Christ, and governed by ‘Kings and Priest’ of Christ, as revelation states, one hundred and forty four from every tongue and nation’.
t8, if there was any suggestion that I implied you thought that then I apologise. I believe what you believe in that the Holy Spirit descended on Jesus ‘in the manner’ of a dove. I have said so many many times.
Ha, sorry I just realized that the way I worded the following could be misconstrued and was. I said:
I do not view the Holy Spirit as a dove in form (like you I assume).
What I meant was (as I think you believe also). Now read the above quote again and my intention becomes clearer. But yes, it certainly looked like I was saying the opposite of what I was trying to say.
Apologies.
Actually I think my original wording was correct, just not clear. I said:
I do not view the Holy Spirit as a dove in form (like you I assume).
But if I said the following instead, then it would have meant we had differing opinions.
I do not view the Holy Spirit as a dove in form (UNLIKE you I assume).
I assume ‘like’ and ‘unlike’ are opposites.
Regardless, I think we are both on the same page. The Holy Spirit is not a dove. A dove is a created thing and God’s form is not like any created thing. Descending like a dove it what the verse says. Keyword is ‘descending’.
t8, I cannot believe that in these enlightened days we are discussing disputes concerning the holy spirit ‘as a dove’ vs ‘in the manner of a dove’.
As I see it, even the protagonists of ‘as a dove’ are only retaining the false concept because they need to do it so they can continue to be a church leader. If they confessed the belief was false they would be thrown out. If they taught the truth they would lose most of their congregation… and the MONEY they rake in from the false ideology…
Being a church leader is a VERY LUCRATIVE BUSINESS POSITION.
Business… I’ve heard that a Pentecostal church has to return a given amount of takings to the higher Business organisation each period. There were severe consequences if they did not. The result of this was that pressure was put on the leaders to force by public embarrassment low or none congregational donators into coughing up more.
I was a visitor at this church so was not in that category and I noticed the little bags with people’s names on by which their contributions are monitored. Of course some churches impose fixed amounts of personal earnings (Mormons!) and it’s amazing who some of the contributors are…. Those churches are ‘Money Rich’ but ‘Spirit Poor’ but are more attractive despite their delusional ideology than any church that speaks the truth.
It seems that (we KNOW that) fantasy is more impressive than reality to the many.
It’s sad alright. Jesus taught to give to the poor and in most cases these churches are richer than the people they are getting the money from. The exact opposite of what Jesus taught. I have seen many churches compelling people to dig deep and give to them. Shame on them. Jesus Church is not reliant on money, but many of these churches would crumble without it.
Each of you should give what you have decided in your heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.
i.e., we decide how much we give , when we give, and who we give it to. Some of these churches have sheep in wolves clothing. They care little about the sheep accep that which they can extort from them each week.
Hi T8,
In Jn 8.42 It is the Spirit speaking.
The Spirit came from God and was sent by Him.
Surely you know the anointed Jesus spoke the Words of God?
Are you saying that the Spirit is speaking of himself in Jn 8.42 or of Jesus?
Blessed are the peacemakers,
for they will be called children of God.Hi T8,
Jn 8.42
Jesus said to them
”If God were your Father you would come to me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come of my own initiative, but He sent me.”
The Spirit spoke these words through the anointed vessel Jesus.
Listen to the Spirit and do not be like the pharisees who only heard and saw the vessel and judged falsely.
You say the spirit spoke these words though the body of Jesus. The problem with the view that Jesus is but a mere flesh body but was the chosen vessel for the Spirit is numerous. For a start, Jesus would go around saying he was God and the Father if God hijacked the body for his purpose and spoke directly for himself. Further, when Jesus says: “not my will but yours”, that unleashes a whole teaching on the definition of flesh as it suggests that the flesh has a mind of its own.
The truth is Jesus is a unique son of God. He has his own spirit and he is one with God’s spirit as we should be too. However, he has inherited a much greater name than anyone else. And he is the primary reason for creation. All things were made through him and for him. He is the firstborn of all creation and God made the cosmos through him.
t8, can you explain what you mean by: ‘Jesus is the unique son of God’?
In your opinion, what is it that marks Jesus’ as unique, and, what does it mean that he is [a] son?
t8, I don’t understand what you mean by ‘Prototype Son’.
My questions were:
1) What makes Jesus a unique son?
2) What is the meaning of the term ‘Son’?
Jael…..Good question, to me Jesus is the actual human being that God has in mind for us all. He is not unique as meaning different from us human beings, but the exact purpose God the Father has in mind for us all, he is a “perfected” human being. There it behoved him to be made exactly as we are, at his berth, therefore he coul not have a prexisting being of some kind as many assume.
Satans whole pln is to make JESUS appear different then we are and by that false teaching decieve all mankind, into thinking they could never attain to the “Full” measure and stature of JESUS, so he turned the image of Jesus into a God,inorder to move his stature and idenity away from all the rest of mankind. Satan and all his messengers infected the whole church at the very begining through he teaching of the Gnostic’s who taught that jesus was not a human but a God and onl desguised as a man, they also taught he was not an anointed human being, hence the term ANTICHRIST (against the anointing) a term coined by the the apostle John.
The church fell away from the truth early on through these false teachings of the Gnostic’s . 2 Ths 2 the man of sin mentioned there is not a real person , it is a “Lie’ about Jesus, which turns the “IMAGE” OF JESUS INTO THE MAN OF SIN.
Remember the first commandment “thou shall have no OTHER GOD BESIDES ME” , You shall make “NO” IMAGE OF ME IN HEAVEN ABOVE OR IN EARTH BELOW. BY TURNING JESUS INTO A GOD THEY ARE TURNING HIS “IMAGE’ INTO A GOD. IT IS A SIN.
Peace and love to you and yours. ………gene
Jael…..Good question, to me Jesus is the actual human being that God has in mind for us all. He is not unique as meaning different from us human beings, but the exact purpose God the Father has in mind for us all, he is a “perfected” human being. There it behoved him to be made exactly as we are, at his berth, therefore he coul not have a prexisting being of some kind, as many assume, because That would have made him different then we are.
Satans whole plan is to make JESUS appear “different” then we are, and by this false teaching decieve all mankind, into thinking they could never attain to the “Full” measure and stature of JESUS, so he turned the image of Jesus into a God, inorder to move his stature and idenity away from all the rest of mankind. Satan and all his messengers begain to infected the whole church at the very begining through the teaching of the Gnostic’s, who taught that jesus was not a real human being, but a God, and only desguised as a man, they also taught he was not an “anointed” human being, hence the term ANTICHRIST (against the anointing) a term coined by the the apostle John.
The church fell away from the truth early on through these false teachings of the Gnostic’s . 2 Ths 2 the man of sin mentioned there is not a real person , it is a “Lie’ about Jesus fostered by Satan himself, which turns the “IMAGE” OF JESUS INTO THE MAN OF SIN.
Remember the first commandment “thou shall have no OTHER GOD BESIDES ME” , You shall make “NO” “IMAGE”, OF ME IN HEAVEN ABOVE OR IN EARTH BELOW. BY TURNING JESUS INTO A GOD THEY ARE TURNING HIS “IMAGE’ INTO A GOD. IT IS A SIN.
Peace and love to you and yours. ………gene
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