- This topic is empty.
- Posts
To all,
Mike has chosen to open to open this discussion to all. His stance is that the word spiritual in 1 Corinthians 15:44 is speaking of the composition of the body while mine is that it is instead speaking of the Holy Spirit that will give the new body life.
1 Corinthians 15:44
Emphatic Diaglott New Testament version44 Is a body soulical, and is a body spiritual.
So according to Mike's reasoning the body that is buried is composed of soul stuff. According to my reason it is led by the soul and not by God's Spirit.
Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 04 2014,12:25) According to my reason it is led by the soul and not by God's Spirit.
Therefore, Jesus' flesh body on earth was not led by the Spirit either?Can a person's BODY even be “spiritual” or “non-spiritual” – in the way you are thinking, Kerwin?
I know a PERSON can be either spiritual or non-spiritual – but a FLESH BODY?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 06 2014,07:16) Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 04 2014,12:25) According to my reason it is led by the soul and not by God's Spirit.
Therefore, Jesus' flesh body on earth was not led by the Spirit either?Can a person's BODY even be “spiritual” or “non-spiritual” – in the way you are thinking, Kerwin?
I know a PERSON can be either spiritual or non-spiritual – but a FLESH BODY?
Mike,According to the literal translation the Koine Greek words in 1 Corinthians 15:44 there us a body that is either “of, relating to, consisting of, or affecting the soul and there is a body that is either “of, relating to, consisting of, or affecting the.
Do you believe there is a body consisting of soul material?
I don't. If Paul wanted to say flesh then he would have said it. For some reason Paul chose to call the two bodies soulical and spiritual.
Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 05 2014,20:55) Do you believe there is a body consisting of soul material?
No I don't, Kerwin. That very thought is illogical, since the soul is something OTHER THAN the body. Likewise, the spirit is also something OTHER THAN the body.That's likely why virtually all English Bibles translate that Greek word as “natural”.
A body cannot be “soulical” or “spiritual” – in the way you are trying your hardest to understand it. And the only reason you try so hard to understand it in such a nonsensical way is because you simply don't LIKE the sensible understanding of what Paul taught.
Here are the definitions of that Greek word. Pay attention to 1b1, and the synonym at the end of the definition:
1) of or belonging to breath
1a) having the nature and characteristics of the breath
1a1) the principal of animal life, which men have in common with the brutes
1b) governed by breath
1b1) the sensuous nature with its subjection to appetite and passion.Synonym : See Definition 5912
Strong's 5912 is:
Synonym for: Fleshly, Fleshy, Sensual.
The words are synonyms, according to those who know Greek much better than you and I do.
Besides, you act as if Paul never mentioned flesh in that teaching. He did indeed specifically tell us that “flesh and blood” (a common idiom for “human being”) cannot inherit the kingdom of God.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 07 2014,06:32) Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 05 2014,20:55) Do you believe there is a body consisting of soul material?
No I don't, Kerwin. That very thought is illogical, since the soul is something OTHER THAN the body. Likewise, the spirit is also something OTHER THAN the body.That's likely why virtually all English Bibles translate that Greek word as “natural”.
A body cannot be “soulical” or “spiritual” – in the way you are trying your hardest to understand it. And the only reason you try so hard to understand it in such a nonsensical way is because you simply don't LIKE the sensible understanding of what Paul taught.
Here are the definitions of that Greek word. Pay attention to 1b1, and the synonym at the end of the definition:
1) of or belonging to breath
1a) having the nature and characteristics of the breath
1a1) the principal of animal life, which men have in common with the brutes
1b) governed by breath
1b1) the sensuous nature with its subjection to appetite and passion.Synonym : See Definition 5912
Strong's 5912 is:
Synonym for: Fleshly, Fleshy, Sensual.
The words are synonyms, according to those who know Greek much better than you and I do.
Besides, you act as if Paul never mentioned flesh in that teaching. He did indeed specifically tell us that “flesh and blood” (a common idiom for “human being”) cannot inherit the kingdom of God.
Mike,Soulical, as used in Scripture means:
Quote 1) of or belonging to breath
1a) having the nature and characteristics of the breath
1a1) the principal of animal life, which men have in common with the brutes
1b) governed by breath
1b1) the sensuous nature with its subjection to appetite and passion.Why is soulical a synonym of Fleshly, Fleshy, Sensual? I think you answer is they have in common the 1b1 meaning.
I am saying the body we no occupy is governed by the soul(1b) but that resurrected body is governed by the spirit.
But instead use 1b1 and see what we come up with. In the body we have now is sensuous in nature and subjected to appetite and passion just like an animal is while the body of the resurrected is godly in nature and so subject to the desires of righteousness. That use does not seem to fit the context of 1 Corinthians 15:44.
Even if it did work it does not support your understanding that the resurrected body is composed of spirit.
Mike………The word in 1 Cor 15:44, has nothing to do with a “SPIRIT” Body, because Spirits do not have bodies, they are what is “IN” BODIES> The apostle Paul was talking about a PHYSICAL BODY that is SPIRITUALLY SUSTAINED. why do is say that because the words “IT” in the dialogue is always referring that a Physical Body and even after resurrection the IT is still a Physical Body, not to even mention, Jesus would have had no need of a Physical resurrection if it was not needful. Without his body he said he was “DEAD” and dead does not mean ALIVE now does it. That is to say, if you believe Jesus' words, that is. Mike why do you not understand this?
peace and love to you and yours……………………………………gene
Gene,
This is a private thread! Oh, sorry! Force of habit since you posted so many times when it WAS still a private thread!
(Just messin' with ya, brother.
)Gene B.
God is a spirit.
Yet He said: Let us make man in our image.What image if He has no shape?Looking at Adam and at our shape, is as looking at Gods shape/form.
So how can you say that a *spirit body* has no body?
You are confusing it with spirit as of man's spirit.
Sample: The spirit of greed in man has no body.
The spirit of lust in man has no body.
Both has not a body;but has its works.
Its works manifests itself.Sorry;this suppose to be a private discussion.
wakeup.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 07 2014,10:03) Mike………The word in 1 Cor 15:44, has nothing to do with a “SPIRIT” Body, because Spirits do not have bodies………
Gene,Wakeup just told you what I've told you a hundred times already: The word “spirit” does not always refer to the same thing.
Remember that I've told you before that “team spirit” does not have a body? But angels, who are ministering spirits, DO have bodies. Jesus, who became a life-giving spirit, DOES have a body.
Even God, who is a spirit, has a body/form in heaven.
Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 06 2014,22:03) I am saying the body we now occupy is governed by the soul(1b) but that resurrected body is governed by the spirit.
And does that apply also to Jesus? Did Jesus have sinful desires when he was on earth? Or was he (and his body) led by the spirit?Mike,
I believe that Jesus was a spiritual man in a soulical body before his resurrection because he descended of Adam, as for the body.
That is not the point I am discussing. The point I am discussion is Paul is not saying the body that is sown is fleshly and the body that is raised is spiritual since simply would the meant composed of flesh. So since using the word soulical does not mean the mortal body is composed of soul then using the word spiritual in the same comparison does not mean that the risen body is composed of spirit.
As far as I know there is not passage of Scripture that even proves that there is a body composed of spirit.
Hi MB,
Jesus was tempted in every way that we are.heb 4.15
Where does temptation come from? jas1.14
We follow one who is an overcomer rev 3.21Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 09 2014,12:30) Hi K,
We are meant to be governed by the Spirit now.
Rom 8.14
Nick,Our spirit must be governed by the Spirit but our body is still subject to frustration and awaits the glorious freedom of government by the Spirit.
Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 08 2014,11:37) Mike, I believe that Jesus was a spiritual man in a soulical body before his resurrection because he descended of Adam, as for the body.
Explain to me a “soulical” body, Kerwin. Is our soul an actual PART of our body? Is our spirit an actual PART of our body?You are speaking in riddles again. Like I said before, you have an “answer” for everything, but those “answers” really don't amount to much. And they never override the scriptures that make it clear that those who are to dwell in heaven are now flesh, but will be something other than flesh after the resurrection.
Kerwin,
You seem to be saying that our souls now guide our bodies into unseemly things. And in the futures, our bodies will be led by our spirits, and not our souls.
So the same flesh bodies, but led by a different part of us?
What then, becomes of our old souls and spirits? Will our soul be a thing of the past after the resurrection – so it can't lead us around anymore? Will our soul be “washed” or something, so it will lead us better? I don't see the end conclusion to your train of thought.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 09 2014,13:11) Hi KW,
Like Paul we await release from our condemned natural bodies- rom7.24
Nick,That passage has a different context. Its context is equivalent to the flesh spoken of in Galatians 5:10-21. You can see that by Paul's words in Romans 7:23 that he is speaking of the law in his members.
Romans 7
King James Version (KJV)23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?Another place the equivalent idea Paul is expressing in Romans 7:23 is in 1 Corinthians 2:14.
1 Corinthians 15:44 is using a different context than the battle between the spiritual mind of a person and the soulical/flesh desires of that same person.
1 Corinthians 15:44
Diaglott(i) 44 Is a body soulical, and is a body spiritual.It is speaking instead about the creature being delivered from the bondage of corruption.
Romans 8:18-23
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. 20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, 21 because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. 23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
My point that Mike is having trouble accepting is since Paul called the corrupted body a soulical body and is not composed of soul then he clearly was not using spiritual to say that the redeemed body was composed of spirit.
1 Corinthians 15:44
Diaglott(i) 44 Is a body soulical, and is a body spiritual.I have done a search of the AV of the KJV and 1 Corinthians 15:44 is the only mention of spiritual body I found. It seems the teaching that there is a spiritual body comes from a misunderstand of Scripture.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 09 2014,22:41) Kerwin, You seem to be saying that our souls now guide our bodies into unseemly things. And in the futures, our bodies will be led by our spirits, and not our souls.
So the same flesh bodies, but led by a different part of us?
What then, becomes of our old souls and spirits? Will our soul be a thing of the past after the resurrection – so it can't lead us around anymore? Will our soul be “washed” or something, so it will lead us better? I don't see the end conclusion to your train of thought.
Mike,I will point out that God stated that the animal soul was in the blood. Some translators choose to translate soul as life and that choice obscures the truth but it also has some truth to it. Given that it us my understanding the soul gives live to the mortal body and the Spirit gives life to the immortal body. The later is superior to the former.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
