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Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 10 2014,19:47) Quote (kerwin @ June 10 2014,12:54) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 10 2014,01:36) Quote (kerwin @ June 10 2014,04:52) Gene, I have asked you twice because your answer did not seem to resolve the difference between your doctrine on this issue and Jesus' words.
Jesus quoted Jehovah's words that he is the God of Abraham, that he spoke even knowing Abraham had died previously. So God is the one that testified he was the God of both Abraham, who was dead, and of those that were yet living. Jesus pronounced God was not the God of the dead. How can both what God said and what Jesus said be true if Abraham was dead in all ways?
Fro
Can you state your resolution to that dilemma so that I can understand how it could be?
Kerwin,,,,,,,, when those words were spoken by God himself he was and is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all who believe and trust in him. But the dead are truly dead, but that isn't saying their spirit is dead, because it goes back to God who gave it in the first place. So if you are addressing the spirit it could be said to still be alive even if it is in asleep state, .and in that sense God is the God of those living spirits,But we are not addressing spirits , but LIVING SOULS, that you and Nick say are Separate from the “BODY” , and the SPIRIT, that is our issue, I am not speaking about the Spirit, I know a spirit can exist outside of a body. I have no problem with that, never did..
Kerwin,,,, A LIVING soul “IS” a BODY WITH SPIRIT Breathed into its nostrils by GOD, nothing more and nothing less, IMO
None of you have produced one scripture, that says, a Soul is still alive after the BODY DIES, speculations are not clear facts Kerwin, neither are true ASSUMPTIONS.
Kerwin this whole problem is resolve in Genesis, go there and take it word for word and come back and tell us what it says brother.
Peace and love to you and yours …………………………gene
Gene,Genesis 35:18
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)18 And it came to pass, as her soul was in departing, (for she died) that she called his name Ben-oni: but his father called him Benjamin.
So do you believe that the “soul” in this case is her spirit that is departing to return to God?
Kerwin……….. yes her Soul was DEPARTING SHE WAS DYING. She was no longer going to be a “LIVING SOUL” her body was dying and life was leaving her and she died.No scripture say the SOUL leaves us as a live being of any kind. No scripture say God took a body and a soul and a spirit and made a man. But scripture does say a man , a complete man can DIE, and death does not mean change to another state of existence., Scripture says there is no work ,nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave where you go.
Kerwin ……….Unless we attain unto the resurrection of a body and spirit added back, we will remain DEAD forever, our ONLY HOPE is in the RESURRECTION..
All other hope of continuing to live after we are dead is futile. IMO
Peace and love to you and yours……………………..gene
G,The word “DEPARTING” means going somewhere. It does not mean dying.
Scripture teaches us that when the breath of life meets the body then the living soul first comes to be.
Then when the breath of life first entered her body he living soul came first came to exist but she laid dying it was departing her. When she was dead her soul had departed her body and her spirit had returned to God and her body laid in its resting place.
So looking at what you are saying you claim that her soul as well as her body as dying as it departed from her. Am I correct.
How does this passage tie in?
Matthew 10:28
Young's Literal Translation (YLT)28 `And be not afraid of those killing the body, and are not able to kill the soul, but fear rather Him who is able both soul and body to destroy in gehenna.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 10 2014,23:32) Hi GB,
God is the God of the living.
You are not among them?
Nall who ad died in the flesh are still alive for God as not yet judge them ,
and so destroy them
unless you have scriptures that says otherwise this is what they say
Quote (kerwin @ June 11 2014,04:33) I 28 `And be not afraid of those killing the body, and are not able to kill the soul, but fear rather Him who is able both soul and body to destroy in gehenna.
Kerwin………notice where it says “BOTH” not three things but BOTH that means two thing not three, and where it says Hell, it simply means grave . But Ido not want to go into that part. Also if you care to look up the word used there for Soul, you will find it really means spirit, but even if you left it as soul it still could apply , because when you body dies there is no longer a LIVING SOUL. There won't be until the resurrection occurs.
Why can't you agree with God who told Adam and Eve, that if they ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil that they would “DIE” , He told then and us what we are ” dust YOU “ARE” and dust “YOU” shall return”.
Have you fallen for Satan's LIE, ” for God knows you shall not “SURELY” DIE.
God does not LIE Kerwin and he said the SOUL (that's the complete person) that sins it SHALL “DIE” and when the breath of life leaves our bodies we are “TRULY” DEAD, no matter what Satan or his teachers try to say. GOD our Fathers words re true and exact. IMO
Kerwin the soul is a COMPLETE person not just part of one.
Peace and love to you and yours……………………gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 11 2014,00:27) Quote (kerwin @ June 11 2014,04:33) I 28 `And be not afraid of those killing the body, and are not able to kill the soul, but fear rather Him who is able both soul and body to destroy in gehenna.
Kerwin………notice where it says “BOTH” not three things but BOTH that means two thing not three, and where it says Hell, it simply means grave . But Ido not want to go into that part. Also if you care to look up the word used there for Soul, you will find it really means spirit, but even if you left it as soul it still could apply , because when you body dies there is no longer a LIVING SOUL. There won't be until the resurrection occurs.Why can' thou agree with God who told Adam and Eve, that if they ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil that they would “DIE” , he told then and us what we are ” dust YOU “ARE” and dust “YOU” shall return”
Have you fallen for Satan's LIE, ” for God knows you shall not “SURELY” DIE.
God does not LIE Kerwin and he said the SOUL (that's the complete person) that sins it SHALL “DIE” and when the breath of life leaves our bodies we are “TRULY” DEAD, no matter what Satan or his teachers try to say. GOD our Fathers words re true and exact. IMO
Kerwin the soul is a COMPLETE person not just part of one.
Peace and love to you and yours……………………gene
Gene,In this case Hell is translated from a that references the valley of the sons of Hinnom, a place outside of Jerusalem. Sometimes it refers to the Jewish netherworld but not in this case. Instead it refers to the Lake of Fire. The KJ versions are not the best choice when dealing with these subjects.
Gene,
psuché is the Koine Greek word for soul but it is also the word for “the vital breath, breath of life” so perhaps the soul and breath are one. I asked you about that earlier.
Quote (kerwin @ June 11 2014,05:37) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 11 2014,00:27) Quote (kerwin @ June 11 2014,04:33) I 28 `And be not afraid of those killing the body, and are not able to kill the soul, but fear rather Him who is able both soul and body to destroy in gehenna.
Kerwin………notice where it says “BOTH” not three things but BOTH that means two thing not three, and where it says Hell, it simply means grave . But Ido not want to go into that part. Also if you care to look up the word used there for Soul, you will find it really means spirit, but even if you left it as soul it still could apply , because when you body dies there is no longer a LIVING SOUL. There won't be until the resurrection occurs.Why can' thou agree with God who told Adam and Eve, that if they ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil that they would “DIE” , he told then and us what we are ” dust YOU “ARE” and dust “YOU” shall return”
Have you fallen for Satan's LIE, ” for God knows you shall not “SURELY” DIE.
God does not LIE Kerwin and he said the SOUL (that's the complete person) that sins it SHALL “DIE” and when the breath of life leaves our bodies we are “TRULY” DEAD, no matter what Satan or his teachers try to say. GOD our Fathers words re true and exact. IMO
Kerwin the soul is a COMPLETE person not just part of one.
Peace and love to you and yours……………………gene
Gene,In this case Hell is translated from a that references the valley of the sons of Hinnom, a place outside of Jerusalem. Sometimes it refers to the Jewish netherworld but not in this case. Instead it refers to the Lake of Fire. The KJ versions are not the best choice when dealing with these subjects.
Kerwin……I do not want to get into that at this time, Please address the other points about the soul I was driving at, that is far more important in this discussion. IMOPeace and love to you and yours……………………….gene
Quote (kerwin @ June 11 2014,05:43) Gene, psuché is the Koine Greek word for soul but it is also the word for “the vital breath, breath of life” so perhaps the soul and breath are one. I asked you about that earlier.
Kerwin ……I agree with that, Yes that is exactly what we “ARE” it takes a BODY with the breath of LIFE to be a LIVING SOUL, and without a BODY “AND” the breath of LIFE in IT, you have NO LIVING SOUL, you are a DEAD SOUL when the breath of life leaves you. Gone for ever , NO SOUL left, a man can kill our Soul, but he can not “DESTROY” ONLY GOD can by simply leaving the body in the grave! but he can also resurrect us a new body and add the breath of life back into it and we again become a LIVING SOUL, not a DEAD one.I have said many times here it is absolutely crucial we attain unto the resurrection of the DEAD, in order to continue to live as a living soul again. Just as Jesus had to. IMO
Peace and love to you and yours………………..gene
k
Quote Gene, psuché is the Koine Greek word for soul but it is also the word for “the vital breath, breath of life” so perhaps the soul and breath are one. I asked you about that earlier.
Quote so perhaps the soul and breath are one i DO NOT THINK THAT THEY ARE THE SAME THING FOR IF IT WAS THEN WE ALL ARE GOING TO OUR FINAL DESTRUCTION
AND THEN THE SOUL IS WHAT COME THROUGH NOSTRILS
HMMMQuote (terraricca @ June 11 2014,06:03) k Quote Gene, psuché is the Koine Greek word for soul but it is also the word for “the vital breath, breath of life” so perhaps the soul and breath are one. I asked you about that earlier.
Quote so perhaps the soul and breath are one i DO NOT THINK THAT THEY ARE THE SAME THING FOR IF IT WAS THEN WE ALL ARE GOING TO OUR FINAL DESTRUCTION
AND THEN THE SOUL IS WHAT COME THROUGH NOSTRILS
HMMM
Terricca ………That is right when we die we go into our final destination ,that is it, life is gone we are TRULY DEAD. I know Satan and his teachers do not want us to realize this, but I tell you What God said to Adam and Eve applies to us also, THE SOUL THAT sins, “IT” SHALL DIE. DUST “YOU” “ARE” and DUST “YOU” SHALL RETURN.Pierre the air is not the Soul it goes into the Soul making it a “LUVING SOUL” , just as Genesis shows.
Pierre our ONLY HOPE for life again after DEATH is if GOD our FATHER creates another BODY for US and Put the BREATH of LIFE BACK into IT, for us ever live again brother.
It is ABSOLUTELY crucial we all attain unto the RESURRECTION of our new Bodies , spiritually made by our HEAVENLY FATHER ALONE, or we simply will never live again as a living soul. Just like HE did for JESUS our lord or better our BROTHER. IMO
Peace and love to you and yours…………………………..gene
Hi GB,
So you will not sleep in the earth
You will not have the Spirit of eternal life abiding in youBecause you will not be
Hi GB,
What are these vessels?
2Tim220 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.
21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.
Do these vessels disappear?
Hi GB
2Cor 5For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
What needs to be clothed??
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 11 2014,07:28) Hi GB,
So you will not sleep in the earth
You will not have the Spirit of eternal life abiding in youBecause you will not be
Nick……it will be exactly as God the father said . Dust “YOU” “ARE” and DUST you SHALL return. THERE is NO LIFE In the GRAVE at all. When we bury some ONE they are truly DEAD, no Matter what Satan wants you to believe. OUR “ONLY.” HOPE is in the RESURRECTION FROM the DEAD, a BODY made for us by GOD HIMSELF. IF GOD does not resurrect us we will remain DEAD for ever.Don't you believe God the FATHER meant what he said? Have you bought into Satan's many LIES, like this one, “for God knows you will not SURELY Die”
Are you not saying the same thing in a round about way?
Nick……Paul said for we hope for the Resurrection that will “WITTINESS”
The “REDEMPTION ” of OUR “BODIES”, we cannot be a LIVING SOUL Without a body. WE HOPE FOR THIS NICK. WE can't count ourselves as already achieving it until it happens. Believe GOD and what “HE” Said, when you DIE your SOUL is TRULY DEAD. You are no longer conscious of anything.Peace and love to you and yours……………..gene
Hi GB,
2 Corinthians 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.WHO does things IN the body?
Hi GB,
.Philippians 3:21
Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.What is meant that this VILE body becomes a GLORIOUS one.
Still mortal you think?Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 11 2014,00:59) Quote (kerwin @ June 11 2014,05:43) Gene, psuché is the Koine Greek word for soul but it is also the word for “the vital breath, breath of life” so perhaps the soul and breath are one. I asked you about that earlier.
Kerwin ……I agree with that, Yes that is exactly what we “ARE” it takes a BODY with the breath of LIFE to be a LIVING SOUL, and without a BODY “AND” the breath of LIFE in IT, you have NO LIVING SOUL, you are a DEAD SOUL when the breath of life leaves you. Gone for ever , NO SOUL left, a man can kill our Soul, but he can not “DESTROY” ONLY GOD can by simply leaving the body in the grave! but he can also resurrect us a new body and add the breath of life back into it and we again become a LIVING SOUL, not a DEAD one.I have said many times here it is absolutely crucial we attain unto the resurrection of the DEAD, in order to continue to live as a living soul again. Just as Jesus had to. IMO
Peace and love to you and yours………………..gene
Gene,If soul is the same as the breath of life then God breathed a soul into Adam's body and then it first became a living soul so in that case the soul is not the combination of the breath and body but it is instead the breath of life. That disagrees with what you have been saying.
Hi GB,
.Revelation 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.So what is thrown into the lake of fire?
Quote (kerwin @ June 11 2014,07:56) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 11 2014,00:59) Quote (kerwin @ June 11 2014,05:43) Gene, psuché is the Koine Greek word for soul but it is also the word for “the vital breath, breath of life” so perhaps the soul and breath are one. I asked you about that earlier.
Kerwin ……I agree with that, Yes that is exactly what we “ARE” it takes a BODY with the breath of LIFE to be a LIVING SOUL, and without a BODY “AND” the breath of LIFE in IT, you have NO LIVING SOUL, you are a DEAD SOUL when the breath of life leaves you. Gone for ever , NO SOUL left, a man can kill our Soul, but he can not “DESTROY” ONLY GOD can by simply leaving the body in the grave! but he can also resurrect us a new body and add the breath of life back into it and we again become a LIVING SOUL, not a DEAD one.I have said many times here it is absolutely crucial we attain unto the resurrection of the DEAD, in order to continue to live as a living soul again. Just as Jesus had to. IMO
Peace and love to you and yours………………..gene
Gene,If soul is the same as the breath of life then God breathed a soul into Adam's body and then it first became a living soul so in that case the soul is not the combination of the breath and body but it is instead the breath of life. That disagrees with what you have been saying.
Kerwin……I did not say they were the same thing , what I said was a “
LIVING”, SOUL is, a BODY “WITH” the breath of LIFE IN it. These two things equals a SOUL that IS “LIVING”, remove one of them and you no longer have a “LIVING” Soul.Just that simple , nothing complicated about it . IMO
Peace and love to you and yours……………………gene
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