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Quote (david @ Mar. 06 2011,00:20)
And so, we stretch the meaning of soul from “life/person” to “life prospects of the person.”
“Stretching” the meaning doesn't seem like a good practice to me. Rather, understanding Jesus to be saying that men are only able to kill the BODY of another man, but not his SOUL, is true to the scripture.Quote (david @ Mar. 06 2011,00:20)
I agree, but spirit is of course different from soul. Different words with different meanings.
As is “body” a different word with a different meaning, right?Quote (david @ Mar. 06 2011,00:20)
As for it saying, 'spirit and soul AND BODY,' this seems to signify completeness, being made completely holy in every way…your body is holy or clean, and your soul (life) is also to be holy.
Well if Paul needed to write all three words in order to signify “completeness”, what does that tell you? Maybe you now have TWO scriptures you must “stretch”?
Quote (david @ Mar. 06 2011,00:20)
The Bible does not say that God created a body and then inserted a soul into it. It says that God breathed the breath of life (spirit) into it and the man “became” a living soul.
Again, the body didn't have soul injected into it. Adam WAS a soul, or BECAME a living soul (person).
I agree that based on the words of 2:7, man is made of a body of dirt and breath from God only. But you know as well as I that the scriptures are progressive, and the NT in many cases sheds light on scriptures of the OT.So if man is ONLY dirt and breath (or spirit) from God, then the word “soul” would ALWAYS include the body. Yet both Jesus and Paul make a clear distinction between these two. Not to mention the souls that John sees under the alter in Revelation.
David, I don't disagree with 2:7, or the many scriptures that clearly have “soul” in referrence to “life”. I can only refer back to my “Get your butt over here” analogy. Let's say the word “heart” was generally used as “life” in the Hebrew culture. And they would say things like, “The King beheaded him, thereby destroying his heart”. Or, “These dangerous men are seeking to take your heart”.
But then Jesus clarified we need to worship Jehovah will our heart AND our mind. Now all of a sudden, it becomes clear that they are two different things. This is how I see this issue. Jesus clearly and without any minced words told us that man can only kill the body, but do nothing to the soul.
That is good enough for me.
Also, consider that a person can live without his fleshly body of dirt. Many do and many more will. The soul is the being or life of a person. But we know that soul does not have to be in a body of dirt in order to live, right? Therefore, even though it's not spelled out in Genesis, we KNOW that man does have a body, but does not necessarily NEED that body in order to live.
So understanding 2:7 to be saying the body is included in the soul doesn't follow throughout the scriptures. Or else those raised to life in heaven would need that body of dirt in order to live.
mike
David ………….> David you have it right don't be led into Mike garbage of breaking up what you are saying into little pieces that he can destory to mean something else and change you overall explanation , he is good at diverting what is over all being said by dividing up what is said into small fragments that he can cause confusion and devision on. Don't fall for it brother. You have expressed it correctly . I and other understand what you said clearly so don't be drawn into his trap. IMO
peace and love to you and yours………………………………gene
Mike…………Now who is talking down to who, see your hypocrisy is showing again> If anyone here is a babe it would be you as you yourself said your were a Novice of only a couple of years in studying GOD'S Word. So may be you need to go to the Kids table and start to listen for a change, better you don't speak and let people think you are fool, then to open your mouth and let them know you are right?>
gene
David ……….Now back to the subject before ignorance interrupted it. What you have said is accurate, and in my sturdies on the word Soul it is indeed the complete Person Body and Spirit, and the Hebrew thought is that way as Hebrew scholars have said, and remember Jesus plainly said God could destory (BOTH) (two things only mentioned here) A BODY AND SOUL, OUR BODY IS WHERE THE SPIRIT FUNCTIONS (IN) AND WITHOUT A body it is Just like the unclean spirit mentioned by JESUS, because Spirit (intellect) is Spirit (intellect) rather clean or unclean makes no difference (IT) is still spirit, (IT), the Spirit goes about in Arid (dry)places looking for a place (BODY) to rest (IN) . SPIRIT (INTELLECT)IS USELESS WITHOUT A BODY OF SOME KIND TO ANIMATE AND CONTROL. IMO
peace and love top you and yours David…………………………………………gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 07 2011,13:31) David ……….Now back to the subject before ignorance interrupted it. What you have said is accurate, and in my sturdies on the word Soul it is indeed the complete Person Body and Spirit, and the Hebrew thought is that way as Hebrew scholars have said, and remember Jesus plainly said God could destory (BOTH) (two things only mentioned here) A BODY AND SOUL, OUR BODY IS WHERE THE SPIRIT FUNCTIONS (IN) AND WITHOUT A body it is Just like the unclean spirit mentioned by JESUS, because Spirit (intellect) is Spirit (intellect) rather clean or unclean makes no difference (IT) is still spirit, (IT), the Spirit goes about in Arid (dry)places looking for a place (BODY) to rest (IN) . SPIRIT (INTELLECT)IS USELESS WITHOUT A BODY OF SOME KIND TO ANIMATE AND CONTROL. IMO peace and love top you and yours David…………………………………………gene
geneyou are so carnal oriented, it is not even funny ,
you understanding is purely in the flesh and so men's views.
Pierre
Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 06 2011,04:22) Quote (t8 @ Mar. 06 2011,16:15) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 21 2011,03:56) Hi All, IMO, the soul is like a computer hard drive. It is our intellect and our memories and completely who we are.
Our spirit is like a USB/Power cable plugged into us. It not only give us the electricity needed to power our “hard drive”, but can also feed us information via “God's internet”.
Our body is simply the outer case of the computer.
Great, because I need an upgrade in memory.
But yeah, I think this analogy is a good one.
mike and T8if you are right then we are not guilty of sin,
Pierre
I am not following your reasoning. Could you please step through it for me. Thank you.Mike Boll,
I do not believe the soul sleeps in the grave. I believe the souls of the righteous rest but the souls of the wicked know no rest.
Job 3
16 Or why was I not hidden away in the ground like a stillborn child,
like an infant who never saw the light of day?
17 There the wicked cease from turmoil,
and there the weary are at rest.Isaiah 57
19 creating praise on their lips.
Peace, peace, to those far and near,”
says the LORD. “And I will heal them.”
20 But the wicked are like the tossing sea,
which cannot rest,
whose waves cast up mire and mud.
21 “There is no peace,” says my God, “for the wicked.”Note: Above passage from NIV c.2011
Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 07 2011,02:36) Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 06 2011,04:22) Quote (t8 @ Mar. 06 2011,16:15) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 21 2011,03:56) Hi All, IMO, the soul is like a computer hard drive. It is our intellect and our memories and completely who we are.
Our spirit is like a USB/Power cable plugged into us. It not only give us the electricity needed to power our “hard drive”, but can also feed us information via “God's internet”.
Our body is simply the outer case of the computer.
Great, because I need an upgrade in memory.
But yeah, I think this analogy is a good one.
mike and T8if you are right then we are not guilty of sin,
Pierre
I am not following your reasoning. Could you please step through it for me. Thank you.
I read your reasoning. Mike was most likely including more than just the computers hard drive in the label “hard drive” since the processor actually does the intellectual processing and makes the choices.Never the less his analogy is a work in progress and thus not complete. I have worked on a similar one but am not satisfied myself as yet.
Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 06 2011,15:00) I read your reasoning. Mike was most likely including more than just the computers hard drive in the label “hard drive” since the processor actually does the intellectual processing and makes the choices.
Absolutely I was Kerwin.And I don't know all the fancy computer talk, but I meant the main “memory” and “brain” of the computer. I called that the “hard drive”, but if a processor and a “megabyte” or whatever is part of that, then include those into my analogy!
mike
Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 06 2011,14:51) Mike Boll, I do not believe the soul sleeps in the grave. I believe the souls of the righteous rest but the souls of the wicked know no rest.
Job 3
16 Or why was I not hidden away in the ground like a stillborn child,
like an infant who never saw the light of day?
17 There the wicked cease from turmoil,
and there the weary are at rest.Isaiah 57
19 creating praise on their lips.
Peace, peace, to those far and near,”
says the LORD. “And I will heal them.”
20 But the wicked are like the tossing sea,
which cannot rest,
whose waves cast up mire and mud.
21 “There is no peace,” says my God, “for the wicked.”Note: Above passage from NIV c.2011
Hi Kerwin,Your Job quote says the wicked will CEASE from turmoil. And the Isaiah quote is talking about living people, not souls in Sheol.
mike
Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 07 2011,14:36) Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 06 2011,04:22) Quote (t8 @ Mar. 06 2011,16:15) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 21 2011,03:56) Hi All, IMO, the soul is like a computer hard drive. It is our intellect and our memories and completely who we are.
Our spirit is like a USB/Power cable plugged into us. It not only give us the electricity needed to power our “hard drive”, but can also feed us information via “God's internet”.
Our body is simply the outer case of the computer.
Great, because I need an upgrade in memory.
But yeah, I think this analogy is a good one.
mike and T8if you are right then we are not guilty of sin,
Pierre
I am not following your reasoning. Could you please step through it for me. Thank you.
Kerwinif our soul is “hard drive”so a memory ,then it will be empty because we are missing the operating program to make the hard drive full ,
this is why i say this analogy is good but is missing something.
mike says it only missing the power from “God'
but i do not believe that this would do.
the body is the vehicle that transport the soul,the spirit is in a way part of that soul ,but i do not know what part ,
the body of flesh can not sin because left by it self it can not move,laking a will,motive,
but put a soul in it then it will act and fulfill his desires and so sin ,by not producing the fruit of the will of God.
what Christ did is to provide us with a way to be reconciled with God but we have to learn to produce the fruit of the spirit of God and that is our choice.
now we can be guilty of sin.
wen we die i believe that yes everything we ever did ,said,is registered in our soul and so can be resurrected and be judged.the body or any body will do.
Pierre
Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 06 2011,17:29) the body is the vehicle that transport the soul,the spirit is in a way part of that soul ,but i do not know what part ,
Hi Pierre,I get that.
But I don't think the spirit is “a part of” the soul. I think the spirit powers both the soul and the body. Without the spirit, the body decays and the soul goes into “sleep mode” until power is again supplied to it.mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 07 2011,19:16) Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 06 2011,17:29) the body is the vehicle that transport the soul,the spirit is in a way part of that soul ,but i do not know what part ,
Hi Pierre,I get that.
But I don't think the spirit is “a part of” the soul. I think the spirit powers both the soul and the body. Without the spirit, the body decays and the soul goes into “sleep mode” until power is again supplied to it.mike
Mikeeither the spirit is part of the soul and is so stored ,until resurrected,the body is a replace part ,
wen God destroyed the soul ,i don't know that it would be by removing his spirit from the soul so that it perish,i am not sure ,but something like that.(nothing can subside without Gods spirit)
a resurrected person as is replacement body and so can move on to serve his God,
while the others will be resurrected and be judged.
Pierre
Quote Rather, understanding Jesus to be saying that men are only able to kill the BODY of another man, but not his SOUL, is true to the scripture. But that's just it, Mike, … this isn't true to scripture.
That's why that one and only one verse, the meaning has to be understood as “life prospects” or “future life” rather than simply as “life” as it is so often used.
The real life, that future life eternal cannot be destroyed by man. Other places in the Bible do clearly say that “souls” can be killed or destroyed or die. The term “dead soul” occurs in the Bible.
So yes, a person can kill your body. Other scriptures make clear that souls can be killed. But the future prospects of your life cannot be touched by another man.Since numerous times, the word “soul” is used to mean the life of a person (Some examples: Ge 35:18; Ex 4:19; 21:23; 30:12; Jos 9:24; Jg 9:17; 12:3; 18:25; 2Ki 7:7; 2Ch 1:11; Job 2:4; 6:11; Pr 1:18; 7:23; 22:23; 25:13:Mt 6:25; 10:39; 16:25; Lu 12:20; Joh 10:15; 13:38; 15:13; Ac 20:10; Ro 16:4; Php 2:30; 1Th 2:8; Jas 1:21; 1Pe 1:22,25; 1Jo 3:16), then why is it such a leap for you to understand this verse to mean the future life of a person?
The Bible speaks of ‘holding back,’ ‘rescuing’ and ‘saving’ a néphesh or soul from death. (Psalm 78:50; 116:8; James 5:20) We also read: “Let us not strike his soul fatally.” (Genesis 37:21) “The manslayer must flee there who fatally strikes a soul unintentionally.” (Numbers 35:11) “Their soul will die in youth.” (Job 36:14) “The soul that is sinning—it itself will die.”—Ezekiel 18:4, 20.
This scripture in question must agree with the other 950 scriptures that make use of the word “soul.” If a hundred scriptures give as one meaning of soul: ‘the person or animal’ and another hundred scriptures say that that person or animal (soul) can be can be ‘killed,’ ‘destoyed,’ ‘die,’ etc, then it is so. And if another hundred scriptures give another meaning of soul, namely, ‘the life that the person or animal has,’ then that cannot really be disputed either.
So how does this one scripture compare to those other very clear scriptures that cannot be nullified? It compares perfectly, as it should. It doesn’t go against or conflict with any of them. If we read those other 900 scriptures first, this one is easy to understand. If we start with this one, you will be confused.Quote So if man is ONLY dirt and breath (or spirit) from God, then the word “soul” would ALWAYS include the body. Except, I don't believe that soul simply means: “Person or animal” but I believe it means: “Person or animal, OR, the life of a person or animal.”
Here's 2 sets of scriptures:
LIFE AS AN INTELLIGENT PERSON
Ge 35:18; Ex 4:19; 21:23; 30:12; Jos 9:24; Jg 9:17; 12:3; 18:25; 2Ki 7:7; 2Ch 1:11; Job 2:4; 6:11; Pr 1:18; 7:23; 22:23; 25:13:Mt 6:25; 10:39; 16:25; Lu 12:20; Joh 10:15; 13:38; 15:13; Ac 20:10; Ro 16:4; Php 2:30; 1Th 2:8; Jas 1:21; 1Pe 1:22,25; 1Jo 3:16A LIVING PERSON OR INDIVIDUAL IS A SOUL
Ge 2:7; 12:15; 14:21; 36:6; 46:15,18,22,25,26,27; Ex 1:5; 12:4,16; 16:16; Le 2:1; 4:2,27; 5:1,2,4,15,17; 6:2; 7:18,20,21,25,27; 17:10,12,1518:29; 20:6; 22:6,11; 23:29,30; 27:2; Nu 5:6; 15:27,28,30; 19:18,22; 31:35,40,46; 35:30; De10:22; 24:6,7; 1Sa 22:22; 2Sa 14:14; 2Ki 12:4; 1Ch 5:21; Ps 19:7; Pr 11:25,30; 16:24; 19:2,15; 25:25; 27:7,9; Jer 43:6; 52:29; La 3:25; Eze 27:13; Ac 2:41,43; 7:14; 27:37; Ro 13:1; 1Co 15:45; 1Pe 3:20; 2Pe 2:14Looking at that first group, we find soul used in a way that we would use “life.”
(Judges 9:17) when my father fought for YOU and went risking his soul that he might deliver YOU out of Mid′i‧an’s hand;
Quote But then Jesus clarified we need to worship Jehovah will our heart AND our mind. Now all of a sudden, it becomes clear that they are two different things. This is how I see this issue. Jesus clearly and without any minced words told us that man can only kill the body, but do nothing to the soul. Except, Jesus wouldn't contradict other scriptures that say that people can kill souls (people can kill people). People can destroy souls (people can destroy lives of people).
See above where I list scriptures that show people killing souls.
Quote Also, consider that a person can live without his fleshly body of dirt. Many do and many more will. The soul is the being or life of a person. But we know that soul does not have to be in a body of dirt in order to live, right? Therefore, even though it's not spelled out in Genesis, we KNOW that man does have a body, but does not necessarily NEED that body in order to live. So understanding 2:7 to be saying the body is included in the soul doesn't follow throughout the scriptures. Or else those raised to life in heaven would need that body of dirt in order to live.
That is, if God GIVES that person a spiritual body. I don't believe there is a spirit body inside each of us, as many believe. We are not spirits encased in bodies. If God resurrects someone with a spirit body, that is different then them having a spirit body inside of them.
To All……….Again the Soul is the complete Person His very Being and it can die and when it dies the spirit (intellect) animating it goes back to GOD who gave it in the first place and the other Part (the Body) goes to the grave and is corrupted and returns to dust , and that is it nothing more left of the person , His thoughts parish , he is gone for every unless GOD resurrects his exact DNA Body and Add Spirit back into it , He would never live again , and unless GOD raised Jesus with his body and add back his spirit into it , he would still be dead and not alive. What is so hard to understand about that. Jesus did not say he was still alive when he died, He said plainly He WAS DEAD, and Now (after his resurrection) HE IS ALIVE FOR EVERMORE. Simple and clear no need to muddy up the the clear water with all kinds of suppositions and assumptions here. David has properly related the Soul and has shown many many scriptures to support his findings. Trying to draw some hidden meanings is exactly what MYSTERY RELIGION Does because they who preach it are themselves confused. IMO
peace and love to all who truly seek the truth of GOD……………………………………………..gene
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 07 2011,19:16) Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 06 2011,17:29) the body is the vehicle that transport the soul,the spirit is in a way part of that soul ,but i do not know what part ,
Hi Pierre,I get that.
But I don't think the spirit is “a part of” the soul. I think the spirit powers both the soul and the body. Without the spirit, the body decays and the soul goes into “sleep mode” until power is again supplied to it.mike
Mikewe have both ,but wich one we develop is the question;
Ro 8:5 Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires.
Ro 8:6 The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace;
Ro 8:9 You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.Pierre
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