- This topic has 3,867 replies, 21 voices, and was last updated 1 year ago by
.
- Posts
Proclaimer…….I guess MOSES was a Moslim then, because he said this, “the LORD your God shall raise up unto you from your brethern a “PROPHET” like unto me, unto him shall you heed”.
By the way it’s repeated in our bibles three or four times, but believing our scriptures makes us all Moslim’s , right? You seem to have a bad habit of branding people who do not agree with you.
Why not just stay with scriptures, I prefer that, as I have said before if what we preach in the new testement doesn’t match the old Testement words , then in most cases it will be the new testement translation that is in error, according to PAUL who told us to search the scriptures (the old Testement is all they had) to see if what was being said was true or not. .
Your problem is with the word “through” it does not carry the same meaning in Greek what it does in English, the word (Dia) Carries the meaning , “for the reason” of , like that was God purpose for creating every thing, in the first place, it was for the perfected “man” Jesus, the pro-type of what God has in mind for “all” his human creation. Jesus being the first to achieve it, but, only the first to, not the last to. Sad you can’t see that.
Peace and love to you and yours………..gene
Proclaimer…….I guess MOSES was a Moslim then, because he said this, “the LORD your God shall raise up unto you from your brethern a “PROPHET” like unto me, unto him shall you heed”.
Gene, something is blocking your understanding because you always get the wrong end of the stick. You are forever getting the opposite meaning to something. Let me clear this one up for you.
Islam is correct. Jesus is the messiah.
Islam, is correct. Jesus is a prophet.
Islam is wrong, they deny that the son came from God in the beginning.Yes, you seem to align with Mohammed’s teachings regarding God and the son.
Islam says that Jesus is a prophet and messenger of God and the Messiah, who was sent to guide the Children of Israel with a new revelation. But the Quran differs from the New Testament in a number of respects including rejecting any kind of divinity and status as the Son of God.
It makes me wonder if yourself, Jodi, and Nick are really looking for Mohammed as your teacher. If you think not, what teaching of his do you disagree with despite having many teachings in common.
Luke 2:11
Today in the town of David a Savior has been born to you; he is the Messiah, the Lord.It doesn’t say ‘he will be’.
Hi Proclaimer,
YOU:
Luke 2:11
Today in the town of David a Savior has been born to you; he is the Messiah, the Lord.It doesn’t say ‘he will be’.
ME: Let’s emphasize how your point is how the text says “he is” verses “he will be”. I find this interesting given that in the past you have not applied this very reasoning to a different passage.
1 Chronicles 17:11 And it shall come to pass, when thy days be expired that thou must go to be with thy fathers, that I will raise up thy seed after thee, which shall be of thy sons; and I will establish his kingdom. 12 He shall build me an house, and I will stablish his throne for ever. 13 I will be his father, and he shall be my son: and I will not take my mercy (Checed, goodness, kindness, faithfulness) away from him, as I took it from him that was before thee: 14 But I will settle him in mine house and in my kingdom for ever: and his throne shall be established for evermore.
As I have pointed out many times, first you have a seed of David that comes of David’s sons, then YHVH declares that He WILL BE his father and not only that YHVH GIVES HIM His goodness to which YHVH promises that He will not take it away. There is not one scripture that says YHVH takes His Son and makes him into David’s son, what we have is YHVH’s word that is the opposite of that.
Hi Proclaimer,
YOU:
Luke 2:11
Today in the town of David a Savior has been born to you; he is the Messiah, the Lord.It doesn’t say ‘he will be’.
ME:
The Old Testament is filled with prophecy of a coming savior. We are given prophecy of a son of David who would have YHVH’s Spirit come to rest upon, an anointing, where he would deliver captives.
ACCORDING TO PROPHECY the child Jesus IS that savior, he IS that Messiah, he IS that Lord.
Luke 2:10 And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people. 11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.
The child Jesus IS, ACCORDING TO PROPHECY.
As I have pointed out many times, first you have a seed of David that comes of David’s sons, then YHVH declares that He WILL BE his father and not only that YHVH GIVES HIM His goodness to which YHVH promises that He will not take it away. There is not one scripture that says YHVH takes His Son and makes him into David’s son, what we have is YHVH’s word that is the opposite of that.
Yes Messiah will be a David’s son and not any preexisting God’s literal son as the Christianity invented to be.
But Jesus was not even qualified for David’s son as he was a virgin born mythical being.
To All,
Luke 1:31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
1 Chronicles 17:11 And it shall come to pass, when thy days be expired that thou must go to be with thy fathers, that I will raise up thy seed after thee, which shall be of thy sons; and I will establish his kingdom. 12 He shall build me an house, and I will stablish his throne for ever. 13 I will be his father, and he shall be my son: and I will not take my mercy (Checed, goodness, kindness, faithfulness) away from him, as I took it from him that was before thee: 14 But I will settle him in mine house and in my kingdom for ever: and his throne shall be established for evermore.
Luke 2:10 And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people. 11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Savior, which is Christ the Lord.
On that day the promised son of YHVH’s WORD was born, that WORD was that YHVH would be a Father unto David’s son where He would settle this son of David into His house and give him an eternal kingdom. That WORD included that this son of David would receive the Spirit and be SENT out into the world to be a savior.
The angel doesn’t call Jesus a savior on the day of his birth because he pre-existed as an anointed one and then was born an infant on earth. The angel declares that day a savior is born because the child is the child of YHVH’s WORD, the prophesies concerning a seed of David who is a savior of the world.
Jodi.., Amen Sis, you nailed it. so glad to see you posting again. Proclaimer thinks he has found one scripture that some how cancels all the many scriptures that say Jesus , “he Shall be”, a future tense statement, So they think they have one, even though they know there many, many, many , scriptures that was pointing to a future event. but as usual they will cancel the hundreds, and force the one to push their points. That is also why they never come to understand the truth about Jesus. You see that’s the only way they can make Jesus out to be a “PREEXISTING” being, Is to force a text to mean something different then the rest of scriptures says.
Good to see you back Jodi.
peace and love to you and yours Jodi……….geneHi Proclaimer,
YOU:
Luke 2:11
Today in the town of David a Savior has been born to you; he is the Messiah, the Lord.It doesn’t say ‘he will be’.
ME: Let’s emphasize how your point is how the text says “he is” verses “he will be”. I find this interesting given that in the past you have not applied this very reasoning to a different passage.
1 Chronicles 17:11 And it shall come to pass, when thy days be expired that thou must go to be with thy fathers, that I will raise up thy seed after thee, which shall be of thy sons; and I will establish his kingdom. 12 He shall build me an house, and I will stablish his throne for ever. 13 I will be his father, and he shall be my son: and I will not take my mercy (Checed, goodness, kindness, faithfulness) away from him, as I took it from him that was before thee: 14 But I will settle him in mine house and in my kingdom for ever: and his throne shall be established for evermore.
When he partook of flesh, it says HE IS.
And before Abraham, I AM.
So he existed before Abraham.
When he came in the flesh, even as a new born he was at that point the Messiah and the Lord. That is what the texts tell us. It’s clearly written. Deny it if you want. That’s your choice to make.
@ Jody
All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
[38] For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.Jesus comes from above
He is the creator of all things, he is before all things, all things subsist in him … (see Colossians, Hebrews, John etc …)Amen !
While I agree with much of your statement Berean, can you explain to me how Jesus created all things when the scriptures state that he was the agent by which God created all things THROUGH.
If I have to travel to LA THORUGH Las Vegas, does that make Las Vegas LA?
Hi Proclaimer,
My understanding of Luke 2:10-11 is of sound reasoning, the angel was most likely not ignorant of prophecy concerning the child and thus declared that which the child was according to prophecy.
The passage thus does not teach by any means in and of itself that Jesus must have pre-existed.
It is unfortunate that your response does not address how you don’t apply your same reasoning of Luke 2:11 to that of 1 Chronicles 17. You instead divert to a passage in John 8, none of the less I am more than happy to address John 8.
Hi Proclaimer,
John 8:12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I AM the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.
Isaiah 42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; 7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.
Acts 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: 23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: 24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
1 Peter 1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: 20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, 21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
Does anyone doubt as to why Abraham rejoiced? Didn’t he rejoice because he knew of the resurrection that would come unto him by means of his own seed? David certainly did as we read in Psalms and Acts!! When Jesus said I AM the light of the world, wasn’t that because YHVH, through him, would bring forth life again unto the dead, life again unto Abraham and David? According to scripture, before Abraham was, before Abraham even existed wasn’t such ordained by God? YES!!.. and thus when Jesus says I AM the light of the world and then says Abraham rejoiced to see my day and was glad and then said, before Abraham was I AM, we know exactly what he was talking about.
I AM the light of the world is Jesus referencing the resurrection and eternal life. He brought forth that life through his shed blood unto death on the cross, which was determined by the foreknowledge of God, which was foreordained before the foundation of the world, which was BEFORE ABRAHAM WAS.
Why not just stay with scriptures, I prefer that, as I have said before if what we preach in the new testement doesn’t match the old Testement words , then in most cases it will be the new testement translation that is in error, according to PAUL who told us to search the scriptures (the old Testement is all they had) to see if what was being said was true or not. .
Hi brother Gene, this is where I differ with you as I blame the NT writers who had changed the concepts on the Messiah and included Jesus in God’s activity which is no where found in the Hebrew Bible. But you always blame the poor translators instead of the very writers of the NT books. Please be fair on this aspect.
Hi Proclaimer
God the Father did not impart his creative power to his Son to create all things, BUT WHEN HE (GOD) BEGOT HIS SON, HE MADE HIM FROM ALL OF ALL THAT HE IS (OMNIPOTENT, OMNISCIENT, OMNIPRESENT). …
THE SON INHERITED EVERYTHING FROM GOD HIS FATHER
LIKE FATHER, LIKE SON
THIS IS MY UNDERSTANDING
Hi Gadam,
The prophets were messengers from God and what about Moses, did he part the Red Sea all by himself? Jesus spoke the words of God just like the prophets and he performed miraculous works like that of Moses. Such was all God’s activity as I see it.
To all……God the Father did it all, every miracle, he himself did, and sent his prophets like Moses and Jesus and all the rest also, to tell us “his” words . Those WORDS and MIRACLES, were not the WORDS OR MIRACLES of them he sent, but the “WORDS AND MIRACLES of God the Father”, who sent them.
God the Father works in and through all his creation, that “that GOD, MAY BE ALL, IN ALL AND THROUGH ALL.
Peace and love to you all and yours………..gene
Hi Gadam,
The prophets were messengers from God and what about Moses, did he part the Red Sea all by himself? Jesus spoke the words of God just like the prophets and he performed miraculous works like that of Moses. Such was all God’s activity as I see it.
Hi Sis Jodi, thanks for your reply to my post. The human activity on behalf God in Hebrew Bible is much different from that of Jesus in the NT. Here are few examples;
Col 1:16
For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him..
Col 2:9
For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily;
John 8:
23 And He said to them, “You are from beneath; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. 24 Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”
58 Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”
John 10: 33
The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.”
John 14:13
If you ask anything in My name, I will do it.
John 16:7
Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you.
Acts 7:59
And they stoned Stephen as he was calling on God and saying, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.”
John 20:28
And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”
John 10:
29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.”
Rev 5:
8 Now when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints
13 And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying:
“Blessing and honor and glory and power
Be to Him who sits on the throne,
And to the Lamb, forever and ever!”The above are the clear statements about Jesus being equated to God and some times even replacing God which is never expected by a Messiah as per the Hebrew Bible.
Hi Gadam,
Thanks for your reply!
Once again I apologize as I am sure you have gone over this well in other posts but at this point I don’t know the answers to your belief in the below questions so much appreciated if you wouldn’t mind going over them with me.
Does the OT give prophecy to a coming Messiah, if so which prophecies do you believe are speaking of him?
Does this coming Messiah stand out in anyway from that of others?…what’s God’s purpose concerning him?
I am assuming you believe he hasn’t came yet and curious to know if you think he maybe coming soon or if prophecy gives signs as to when he is to come?
Once again I apologize as I am sure you have gone over this well in other posts but at this point I don’t know the answers to your belief in the below questions so much appreciated if you wouldn’t mind going over them with me.
Hi Sis Jodi, thanks again for your reply to my post. You need not apologize for any thing as we are all in the learning process. You asked me the following;
Does the OT give prophecy to a coming Messiah, if so which prophecies do you believe are speaking of him?
Yes certainly there are number of texts in the Hebrew Bible that talk about the coming Messiah. The following are such;
- Num 24:7 “I see him, but not now;
I behold him, but not near—
a star shall come out of Jacob,
and a scepter shall rise out of Israel”; - Isaiah 11:1-4 “A shoot shall come out from the stump of Jesse,
and a branch shall grow out of his roots”. - 2 Sam 7:12-14 “When your days are fulfilled and you lie down with your ancestors, I will raise up your offspring after you, who shall come forth from your body, and I will establish his kingdom..”
- Jer 33: 14 The days are surely coming, says the Lord, when I will fulfill the promise I made to the house of Israel and the house of Judah. 15 In those days and at that time I will cause a righteous Branch to spring up for David; and he shall execute justice and righteousness in the land. 16 In those days Judah will be saved and Jerusalem will live in safety. And this is the name by which it will be called: “The Lord is our righteousness.”
- Jeremiah 23:5-6 “The days are surely coming, says the Lord, when I will raise up for David a righteous Branch, and he shall reign as king and deal wisely, and shall execute justice and righteousness in the land..”
- Ezekiel 34: 23 I will set up over them one shepherd, my servant David, and he shall feed them: he shall feed them and be their shepherd. 24 And I, the Lord, will be their God, and my servant David shall be prince among them; I, the Lord, have spoken.
- Ezekiel 37: 24 My servant David shall be king over them; and they shall all have one shepherd. They shall follow my ordinances and be careful to observe my statutes. 25 They shall live in the land that I gave to my servant Jacob, in which your ancestors lived; they and their children and their children’s children shall live there forever; and my servant David shall be their prince forever. 26 I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them; and I will bless them and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary among them forevermore. 27 My dwelling place shall be with them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people…
The above are few of such texts in the Hebrew Bible that talk about the coming Messiah. Your next question;
Does this coming Messiah stand out in anyway from that of others?…what’s God’s purpose concerning him?
Yes he is a special person and different from other so called Messiahs when you read the texts about him as mentioned above.
Your third question;
I am assuming you believe he hasn’t came yet and curious to know if you think he maybe coming soon or if prophecy gives signs as to when he is to come?
Yes I assume that such person has not yet come in this world so far. The following are few signs for his arrival;
Hosea 3: 4 For the Israelites shall remain many days without king or prince, without sacrifice or pillar, without ephod or teraphim. 5 Afterward the Israelites shall return and seek the Lord their God, and David their king; they shall come in awe to the Lord and to his goodness in the latter days.
Isaiah 2:1-4 In days to come
the mountain of the Lord’s house
shall be established as the highest of the mountains,
and shall be raised above the hills;
all the nations shall stream to it……Amos 9; 13-14 ….I will restore the fortunes of my people Israel,
and they shall rebuild the ruined cities and inhabit them;…..Micah 4:1-4 ….For out of Zion shall go forth instruction,
and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
3 He shall judge between many peoples,
and shall arbitrate between strong nations far away;
they shall beat their swords into plowshares,
and their spears into pruning hooks;
nation shall not lift up sword against nation,
neither shall they learn war any more..Zech 8: 23 Thus says the Lord of hosts: In those days ten men from nations of every language shall take hold of a Jew, grasping his garment and saying, “Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you.”
Zech 14:1-9 …Then the Lord will go forth and fight against those nations as when he fights on a day of battle…
Isaiah 32: 8 My people will abide in a peaceful habitation,
in secure dwellings, and in quiet resting places.Hab 2:14 But the earth will be filled
with the knowledge of the glory of the Lord,
as the waters cover the sea.And there are many such signs for the arrival of the Messiah the Prince. Hope this will clear your doubts on Messiah.
- Num 24:7 “I see him, but not now;
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
