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T8….SHOW US WHER SCRIPTURE SAY God’s representive is a God. Even Moses is said to be a representive of God to Aron and the people. But a representive of something is far from being the thing he or she represents. No prophet was ever called a God at any time in scripture.
While I certainly do not advocate the use of calling a certain man or angel as a god, it is clearly written in scripture where men and angels are called theos or elohim. If we want to understand the truth of the word ‘theos’, ‘elohim’, and ‘el’, we also need to understand all the scriptures that use these words.
Starting with theos we have many scriptures that we both agree with, but what about the following:
Ephesians 1:3 (English-NIV)
Praise be to the God (theos) and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ.2 Corinthians 4:4 (English-NIV)
The god (theos) of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God (theos).John 10:34 (English-NIV)
Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, `I have said you are gods (theos)’The next scripture uses ‘El’ and we both agree with it. But what about the following scriptures:
Malachi 2:10 (English-NIV)
Have we not all one Father ? Did not one God (El) create us?
Why do we profane the covenant of our fathers by breaking faith with one another?Isaiah 9:6 (English-NIV)
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God (El), Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.The next verse uses ‘Elohim’ and we both agree with it, but what about the following verses.
Genesis 1:1 (English-NIV) says:
In the beginning God (Elohim) created the heavens and the earth.Psalms 82:6 (English-NIV)
“I said, `You are “gods” (Elohim); you are all sons of the Most High.’Psalm 97:7
All who worship images are put to shame, those who boast in idols; worship him, all you gods (Elohim)!Exodus 20:23 (English-NIV)
Do not make any gods (Elohim) to be alongside me; do not make for yourselves gods (Elohim) of silver or gods (Elohim) of gold.1 Samuel 14:15
And there was trembling in the host, in the field, and among all the people: the garrison, and the spoilers, they also trembled, and the earth quaked: so it was a very great (elohim) trembling.Jonah 3:3
So Jonah arose and went to Nineveh according to the word of the Lord. Now Nineveh was an exceedingly (elohim) great city, a three days’ walk..From all the above scriptures you can plainly see that the one true God is being referenced as well as false gods and idols. However, the word theos, elohim, and el, are used legitimately too when not referring to the one true God. It is this that you need to reconcile with your understanding.
T8……YES, there are many “so-called” GOD’S, but that does not make any of them “TRUE” GOD’S Big or little gods. I have EXPLAINED this many times here, the word GOD IS A “RELETIVE” term, that is why it is said as ,my God, your God, the God of this or the God of that. So it is applied to things, right? But because the word is applied to something does not make that thing it is applied to a real OR “TRUE” God of any kind, To us believers, because we only reconize ONE AS GOD, “HERE O ISRAEL THE LORD “OUR” GOD IS “ONE” LORD (ADONIA). AND we like Jesus say “THOU ARE THE “ONLY” (meaning no other) “TRUE” GOD.
AS FAR AS Palsm 82:6 and John 10:34 goes i have said before those scriptures are given in a possessive sense, because God words came unto his own. Jesus was simply telling those pharissies they were Gods childern themselves, so why were they upset with him for saying he was a son of God also. In none of that dialog did Jesus ever say he was a God, but a son of God as the scripture he quoted was implying in plasm 82:6.
T8, WHY IS THIS SO HARD FOR YOU TO UNDERSTAND, THERE IS “ONLY” ONE “TRUE” GOD, ALL OTHERS ARE “FLASE” GODS, TO US, EVEN IF THEY ARE GODS TO OTHERS, THEY ARE NOT TO US WHO BELIEVE WHAT GOD THE FATHER AND JESUS HAVE SAID.
peace and love to you and yours. ……………..gene
T8……YES, there are many “so-called” GOD’S, but that does not make any of them “TRUE” GOD’S Big or little gods.
I don’t think I have ever said that. What I am saying is that some say that all others who are called theos or elohim are false theos or false elohim.
If an earthquake is elohim, then is the earthquake God or a false god? Neither is the answer. If sons of the Most High God are called elohim or theos, then are they false gods? This is my point. There is more to the way ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ are used than most seem to teach here. I am pointing this out and kindly asking people to deal with this rather than ignore it and put your head in the sand.
What of ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ that are neither God or false gods? What do you say?
T8……The word theos, is Greek for What we call GOD, the word elohim is Hebrew for the word we call GOD. My question to you is where is the dividing line between who is a God to you and who is not a God to you. Where is your line drawn at, or is there a line you can draw between, what is a true God and what is not a true God? It all boils down to what you believe a God really is, so what say you?
peace and love to you and yours. ……………gene
Nick……Are you not the one grappling with nomenclature yourself? Please produce your “generic” “nomenclature” that Jesus gave us about the word God NICK.
As far as you other STATEMENT goes I COULD say the same about you also, you would understand clearly if you knew the Father also, only i would add and JESUS.
peace and love to you and yours. ……………………gene
Lightenup. …….yes i would like to have a discussion , that is why i started this thread.
peace and love to you and yours………………gene
@GeneBalthrop
Hi Gene,
I realize that you want to have a discussion in general regarding the topic of this thread. What I am asking is if you would be interested in a closed discussion between you and me only. Would you like to do that? If so, I will start that and give you a link to it.Hi GB,
Discussions about gods belongs to theology.
But we can know the Father and the Son in the Spirit.
To each person who sees or posts to this thread,
The Lexicon at Blue Letter Bible’s sit reads:
Outline of Biblical Usage
I (plural)
A. rulers, judges
B. divine ones
C. angels
D. gods
(plural intensive – singular meaning)
A. god, goddess
B. godlike one
C. works or special possessions of God
D. the (true) God
E. God
This is what the this lexicon states the various definitions for elohim(god) are in the Old Testament. The case I have laid before you is that the word elohim in Deuteronomy 10:17 is that it means I Jehovah the one you worship accept worship from those who seek to be like me in true righteousness and holiness. The support for my claim is in Deuteronomy 10:16 where he instructs the Hebrews to repent and do all that is right.
You can see that exhibit A is a Hebrew Lexicon and exhibit B is a Hebrews 10:16-17. The evidence is contained in the passage of Scripture while the Hebrew Lexicon is a tool to aid understanding of the evidence.
I have the courage and faith to put my argument forth for it to be cross examined by whoever chooses. Who here can say the same? Who here has examined it with wisdom?
@t8,
While I certainly do not advocate the use of calling a certain man or angel as a god, it is clearly written in scripture where men and angels are called theos or elohim. If we want to understand the truth of the word ‘theos’, ‘elohim’, and ‘el’, we also need to understand all the scriptures that use these words.
This and the rest of your post is well written.
Gene,
T8, WHY IS THIS SO HARD FOR YOU TO UNDERSTAND, THERE IS “ONLY” ONE “TRUE” GOD, ALL OTHERS ARE “FLASE” GODS, TO US, EVEN IF THEY ARE GODS TO OTHERS, THEY ARE NOT TO US WHO BELIEVE WHAT GOD THE FATHER AND JESUS HAVE SAID.
All caps is yelling. Get over it.
I am not going to tell God that he means false gods when he calls a man or angel god. I am not that ignorant to believe he is saying they are to be worshiped. When God states human beings are a little lower than the angels he is not calling the angels false gods. He is saying that angels are a like him and since in the context lower means inferior it follows that he is saying they are like him in being superior. I assure you he realizes he is still the highest chief.
They are not false superiors they are true superiors.
T8……The word theos, is Greek for What we call GOD, the word elohim is Hebrew for the word we call GOD. My question to you is where is the dividing line between who is a God to you and who is not a God to you. Where is your line drawn at, or is there a line you can draw between, what is a true God and what is not a true God? It all boils down to what you believe a God really is, so what say you?
There are many who are called theos and elohim whether legitimately or as false theos and elohim.
But there is one true God who is above all and in all. He is the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. His Father is our father, and his God is our God.
It is not as simple as saying there is one true God the Father and all others are false. That statement itself is false.
Kerwin…….JESUS SAID CLEARLY, GOD IS A “SPIRIT”, ARE HUMAN BEINGS SPIRITS? JESUS SAID AlSO CLEARLY, HE WAS NOT A SPIRIT, SO HOW DOES THAT MAKE HIM A GOD in any sense of the word. Jesus said we are to woship the Father who is a spirit and worship him in spirit and truth. The word God is not defined as a big or little god, all God related words in scripture are upper case letters, the change came only about 700 hundred years ago. You have not produced a single scripture that say there are big Gods or little one greater gods or lessor gods. The word God in scripture is the same throughout all scriptures. And it always indicates a diety And no human is said to be a deity so a man could not be a god of any kind.
Using the scripture that say God is the God of all Gods, does not define if those so-called gods are true gods or not, that he was referencing , that is an assumption on your and others part, that they are true gods. While those people might have believed in those man made gods that does not make them real gods. JESUS sure didn’t think he was a God, or that there were other god beings either, or he would not have said to God the Father that he was the “only’ “true” God. That would have made him a liar. Not only him but God the father himself who said clearly he was the only God that exists, he even said he looked for other gods and found “none”, so how many have you found lately Kerwin? Are you better then God tbe father at finding other God’s, I think not.
If i said to you, you were the “only” person that knew something i told you, do you also “assume” there are other that know it? If i say that is the “only ” one left do you assume there are more left?
Why don’t you look up the word IDOLATRY and see how that fit into your line of reasoning.
All who belive in other “true” God’s are IDOLATAR’S, and will pay the price for their stupidity. By being given a deluding spirit from God himself, so they can believe the “Lie”, reguarding JESUS, AS A GOD SITTING IN THE TEMPLE OF GOD, BEING DESPLAYED AS AS A GOD. IMOPeace and love to you and yours. ……………….gene
T8……I never said there are not “so-called” other God’s, what i am saying is, that to “us” there is no other True God big or little, but the one and only true God our Heavenly Father. Now if I and Jesus and our Heavenly Father says there is only one “true” God, then obvisely all others have to be “untrue” Gods, right?, that is if we truly believe what Jesus said right? , and not only that but God the Father also said he was the only true God, he said he looked and could not find any other God’s. So why are some here trying to find more then one God, for us to acknowledge as a God then?
peace and love to you and yours………………..gene
Jesus said to GOD THE FATHER that HE WAS THE “ONLY” “TRUE” GOD. What should these words mean to us all?
WHAT SAY YOU?
Gene,
Scripture:
John 17:3 Now this is eternal life: That they may know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
First statement: THIS IS ETERNAL LIFE:
Jesus with that statement referred to his own death redemption/salvation/eternal life process!
So HE DIED, AND THROUGH HIS DEATH HE BECAME
THE SOLE PROPRIETOR OF ALL MORTAL FLESH.
NOW
John 17:2 As thou hast given HIM POWER OVER ALL FLESH, that HE may give eternal life to all whom thou hast given HIM.So from the above we have no doubts :
JESUS IS THE SOLE
PROPRIETOR OF ALL FLESH, and therefore alsoIT’S ETERNAL LIFE! AND ETERNAL LIFE IS GOD’S ATTRIBUTE,
Now read this scripture:
Jeremiah 32:26 And THE WORD of the LORD
THEREFORE JESUS’SPIRIT hidden within the process of our creation!
came to Jeremiah, saying:
27Behold I am
THE LORD THE GOD OF ALL FLESH: shall any thing be hard for me?
NOTICE THE EMPHASIS:
I AM THE LORD THE GOD OF ALL FLESH! GOT IT?
HE DIDN’T SAY:I AM THE LORD GOD OF ALL FLESH, TO ASSERT THAT THERE’S JUST ONLY ONE SPIRITUAL GOD!
BUT MADE IT CLEAR THATHE, GOD the Father through the Holy Spirit, IN “THE WORD” MADE FLESH, JESUS CHRIST, IS ANOTHER GOD, APART FROM HIMSELF.
WHICH IS AS CLEAR AS CRYSTAL
GOD OF ALL FLESH
WHOM THE FATHER SENT INTO THIS WORLD and made him the
SOLE PROPRIETOR OF ALL FLESH! AND ALSO HEIR OF ALL THE SPIRITUAL ATTRIBUTES OF GOD THE FATHER INCLUDING THE TITLE OF GOD
Hebrews 1:2………….. whom he hath appointed HEIR OF ALL THINGS, ………………….NOW NEXT STATEMENT:
That they may know thee,
HOW WOULD THEY MAY KNOW THAT THE FATHER IS:
THE ONLY TRUE GOD, AND JESUS CHRIST
NOTICE: NOT JUST
THE ONLY TRUE GOD, ON ITS OWN, BUT STRENGTHENED WITH
JESUS CHRIST THE GLORY OF GOD!
TITUS 2:13 ……………. the glory of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ,
MORE TO COME!
Peace and love in Jesus
CharlesCarmel…….If Jesus was another God, then why did he say this “FOR THOU ARE THE “ONLY” “true” God?
Is jesus a liar, was he just trying to decieve us, by using the word “only” and “true”. Perhaps God tge Father was lying when he said he looked for another God And found None.
You using your own human reasoning and forcing the text to fit you dogmas, but don’t fell alone many here do the same. But this can be easely cleared up , did Jesus himself ever say he was a God, or the GOD THAT WAS ABIDING “IN” HIM, via the Holy Spirit, he recieve at the Jordan river?
peace and love to you and yours. ……………gene
Gene,
Kerwin…….JESUS SAID CLEARLY, GOD IS A “SPIRIT”, ARE HUMAN BEINGS SPIRITS?
That is called testing though you perhaps you misunderstood Jesus’ words. Have you considered that Love is spirit as well and God is Love so the words of Jesus in John 4:24 could well mean that “<span id=”en-AKJV-26181″ class=”text John-4-24″>God <i>is</i> Love: and they that worship him must worship <i>him</i> in love and in truth. </span>” After all, Jehovah is not a ghost; a bodiless soul.
I understand that you are implying that human beings are not the same kind as El. So clearly you realize that in Scripture when the word elohim or one of its derivatives is used in reference to a human being it is not saying he is the same kind as Yawheh. It therefore must have a different meaning in those situations. For example in Psalms 82:6 Jehovah tells the Hebrews that he previously said they were gods, the children of the most high. After applying the test you proposed it is clear that he is not saying they are the same kind as he is even though he also previously declared that they were his children. So it follows that the words gods must mean something else in the given context.
T8……I never said there are not “so-called” other God’s, what i am saying is, that to “us” there is no other True God big or little, but the one and only true God our Heavenly Father.
Then why argue with us because that is what we believe.
Now if I and Jesus and our Heavenly Father says there is only one “true” God, then obvisely all others have to be “untrue” Gods, right?,
Yes in the sense of being the Most High or one true God. But we are only pointing out that ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ are applied to other subjects that are not the one true God. They are not being mentioned this way to compete with the one true God, but in a different way.
Look at it this way. There is one who is the Devil. There are also those (including humans) that are called devil. The latter is not to say that there are multiple persons called The Devil, but that scripture also applies that word to those that are of the devil.
Sometimes ‘theos’ is applied to those that represent God. This is in no way saying that there are multiple one true Gods. Please understand this. Arguing against it is only denying the reality of scripture. Just accept the way scripture uses these words. You are the student, not the one who wrote it.
How about it?
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