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Nick,
Have you heard of the “two shall become one?”
I think you have difficulty grasping the meaning of unity-echad.
Two being one is a biblical concept that can be difficult to understand.I see a few ways of this oneness:
One God, the Father
One Lord, Jesus Christ
within in
One Godhead
sharing of the
One Spirit from the Father.Jesus was a servant too because He was perfect and because He was perfect and the Lord of glory, His death could save us.
Worship the one Godhead.
Hi LU,
Godhead as you use it is a traditional usage for trinity or your binity and unrelated to scripture.Two gods did not become one in any bible I have read.
But the Son of God is one with his Father in Spirit since the time of the Jordan
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 03 2010,21:00) Hi LU,
If two gods became one why do you worship them individually?
Nick,
Because they are still individuals. When two married people become one, they are still two individuals, two different personalities too, with two different roles. I don't treat the husband as if he were the wife or visa versa, yet they are one.Hi LU,
Jesus said true worshippers worship the Father but folks prefer their own ideas?
Why would you worship him if you do not want to listen to him?
Why do you call me LORD LORD and not do as I say?Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 03 2010,21:00) Hi LU,
Godhead as you use it is a traditional usage for trinity or your binity and unrelated to scripture.Two gods did not become one in any bible I have read.
But the Son of God is one with his Father in Spirit since the time of the Jordan
I have never used the term binity. I use the term unity. That is a Biblical term.The oneness of the Father and Son is much more than unity of Spirit. They see eye to eye.
Quote Zech 6:13 Indeed, he will build the temple of the Lord, and he will be clothed in splendor, sitting as king on his throne. Moreover, there will be a priest with him on his throne and they will see eye to eye on everything. NET Sound familiar?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 03 2010,21:10) Hi LU,
Jesus said true worshippers worship the Father but folks prefer their own ideas?
Why would you worship him if you do not want to listen to him?
Why do you call me LORD LORD and not do as I say?
Nick,
Jesus didn't say they would worship the Father “only.”I worship the Father.
Let me ask you why you need the Spirit if all you can do is repeat what you read? Any literate person can read and then repeat it…no “spirit” needed for that. The Spirit speaks to the believer and the scripture is there to back it up. Do you think that you have unlocked all the mysteries and hidden messages of scripture? If the Spirit has approved of my worship of the Son as the Son and you can't find it in scripture does that mean that it is not there or could that mean that you haven't discovered it yet.
Maybe you don't want to find it and maybe I do. Who is more likely to find the treasure? God has given me the faith to worship the Son also (as the Son) and I will continue to seek His continued confirmation and uncover mysteries within the Word.
The Word is there to back up the Spirit, not the other way around. The Spirit is first and then the Word.
The scripture is inspired by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit wasn't inspired by the scripture.
Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 04 2010,13:29) The Word is there to back up the Spirit, not the other way around. The Spirit is first and then the Word. The scripture is inspired by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit wasn't inspired by the scripture.
Hi Kathi,I don't know why you are so headstrong about this.
1. All through the Bible we are TOLD to worship God. By God, by prophets, by angels, by Jesus himself.
2. Nowhere in the Bible are we TOLD to worship Jesus as God, a king, a lord or anything else.
Can you see the contrast between #1 and #2?
You say the Spirit leads you to this decision, but if it is required by God that we worship Jesus too, why do only you know about it? (I won't lump you in with the trinity people, because I know you are not.)
Follow the Scriptures over what might be your own mind talking to you instead of Spirit.
Quote 2 Timothy 3:16 NIV
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,peace and love,
mikeQuote (Lightenup @ Mar. 04 2010,13:06) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 03 2010,21:00) Hi LU,
If two gods became one why do you worship them individually?
Nick,
Because they are still individuals. When two married people become one, they are still two individuals, two different personalities too, with two different roles. I don't treat the husband as if he were the wife or visa versa, yet they are one.
KathiWhen you file your tax return, not counting your children, do you claim one, or two dependants?
Georg
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 03 2010,21:56) Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 04 2010,13:29) The Word is there to back up the Spirit, not the other way around. The Spirit is first and then the Word. The scripture is inspired by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit wasn't inspired by the scripture.
Hi Kathi,I don't know why you are so headstrong about this.
1. All through the Bible we are TOLD to worship God. By God, by prophets, by angels, by Jesus himself.
2. Nowhere in the Bible are we TOLD to worship Jesus as God, a king, a lord or anything else.
Can you see the contrast between #1 and #2?
You say the Spirit leads you to this decision, but if it is required by God that we worship Jesus too, why do only you know about it? (I won't lump you in with the trinity people, because I know you are not.)
Follow the Scriptures over what might be your own mind talking to you instead of Spirit.
Quote 2 Timothy 3:16 NIV
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,peace and love,
mike
Hi Mike,
There are very few people that would question me as to why I was so insistent on worshipping Jesus AND the Father and they are all on HN. You few are not the norm in the Christian faith, you know that…right? I see Jesus as the Son within the Godhead, you don't. Trinitarians see Jesus as the Son within the Godhead too. That is why the Trinitarians and I can both worship the Son along with the
Father. I disagree with the Trinitarians on some things in the doctrine like the co-equal and co-eternal terms but not the idea of there being a Godhead made up of more than one person.The people that I read about or learn about that seem full of the Spirit and are very fruitful ALL worship Jesus as a member of the Godhead. They are reaching many for God and are people I would like to be with. God seems to be showing them favor. If they were wrong to worship Jesus and teach others to also, I don't think I would be seeing such fruit and such effective ministries.
Do you know of ministries that are demonstrating the fruit of the HS and are very effective for God that do not consider Jesus as part of the Godhead and only worship the Father? I don't hear of any big orthodox Jewish ministry that is out there healing the sick, clothing the naked and feeding the hungry.
Kathi
Quote (Elizabeth @ Mar. 03 2010,22:36) Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 04 2010,13:06) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 03 2010,21:00) Hi LU,
If two gods became one why do you worship them individually?
Nick,
Because they are still individuals. When two married people become one, they are still two individuals, two different personalities too, with two different roles. I don't treat the husband as if he were the wife or visa versa, yet they are one.
KathiWhen you file your tax return, not counting your children, do you claim one, or two dependants?
Georg
Georg,
My husband is a CPA and I just sign the thing. I really don't know the answer to that question and I do not see the relevance to this conversation. Maybe you can explain why you ask.Kathi
Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 03 2010,23:09) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 03 2010,21:56) Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 04 2010,13:29) The Word is there to back up the Spirit, not the other way around. The Spirit is first and then the Word. The scripture is inspired by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit wasn't inspired by the scripture.
Hi Kathi,I don't know why you are so headstrong about this.
1. All through the Bible we are TOLD to worship God. By God, by prophets, by angels, by Jesus himself.
2. Nowhere in the Bible are we TOLD to worship Jesus as God, a king, a lord or anything else.
Can you see the contrast between #1 and #2?
You say the Spirit leads you to this decision, but if it is required by God that we worship Jesus too, why do only you know about it? (I won't lump you in with the trinity people, because I know you are not.)
Follow the Scriptures over what might be your own mind talking to you instead of Spirit.
Quote 2 Timothy 3:16 NIV
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,peace and love,
mike
Hi Mike,
There are very few people that would question me as to why I was so insistent on worshipping Jesus AND the Father and they are all on HN. You few are not the norm in the Christian faith, you know that…right? I see Jesus as the Son within the Godhead, you don't. Trinitarians see Jesus as the Son within the Godhead too. That is why the Trinitarians and I can both worship the Son along with the
Father. I disagree with the Trinitarians on some things in the doctrine like the co-equal and co-eternal terms but not the idea of there being a Godhead made up of more than one person.The people that I read about or learn about that seem full of the Spirit and are very fruitful ALL worship Jesus as a member of the Godhead. They are reaching many for God and are people I would like to be with. God seems to be showing them favor. If they were wrong to worship Jesus and teach others to also, I don't think I would be seeing such fruit and such effective ministries.
Do you know of ministries that are demonstrating the fruit of the HS and are very effective for God that do not consider Jesus as part of the Godhead and only worship the Father? I don't hear of any big orthodox Jewish ministry that is out there healing the sick, clothing the naked and feeding the hungry.
Kathi
KathiGood points!
Blessings Keith
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 04 2010,17:02) Kathi Good points!
Blessings Keith
Hi WJ,Maybe you could point out the Scripture that TELLS US to worship Jesus?
peace and love,
mikeHi all,
The first thing to do here is to define 'Worship'.
Kathi may well be right that she does what she does to both God and Christ, to both the Father and the Son BUT she uses the word 'Worship', not understanding what it is, re-defining the word in indifference to the scripture that says 'lean not on thine own understanding'.
Kathi, your declaration that noone has disputed your claim to worship 'God and Christ' is more likely if noone was debating the Scriptures with you. This is why I have told you before that your knowledge and acts to God and Christ are sound as far as your current understanding goes.
What you have done here in this forum is to raise your level of understanding. This means that you need refinement of your knowledge but you steadfastly refuse to acknowledge the 'word of truth' that your personal definition of 'worship' is faulty, that nowhere in Scriptures is it stated that Jesus Christ is to be Worshipped by mankind.
Please don't quote verses claiming that Jesus 'was' worshipped. The Scriptures clearly state, as Mike has pointed out, that only God Almighty is to be worshipped.It has also been pointed out that the Disciples, Jews, Pharasees, Scribes, and so on, knew only the One God and Worshipped only the One God.
When Jesus was 'aledged' to have been 'worshipped', why did they not protest and claim that Jesus was being blasphemous by accepting it? Perhaps, the lack of any comment by anyone is a sure clue to the fact that Noone thought that the act performed was in any way classed as Worship!!Kathi, perhaps you would like to state (again):
1) What you think 'Worship' is;
2) Why you think it applies to Jesus Christ; and
3) Where you get your Scriptural backing.Kathi,
I forgot to mention…
There is another word that describes the acts performed to Jesus, and others. That word is 'Obeisance' and is akin to the physical acts of worship but can be applied to anyone, particularly one of great importance: a King, a Judge, a 'Mighty One', a Heroic one, a Saviour, and so on.Why did the Scripture translaters chose the term 'Worship' and not 'Obeisance' when they came across the Greek word at that point? perhaps even they did not believe that someone would mis-interpret the meaning (the 'spirit' not the 'letter'!)
Quote (JustAskin @ Mar. 06 2010,23:41) Kathi,
I forgot to mention…
There is another word that describes the acts performed to Jesus, and others. That word is 'Obeisance' and is akin to the physical acts of worship but can be applied to anyone, particularly one of great importance: a King, a Judge, a 'Mighty One', a Heroic one, a Saviour, and so on.Why did the Scripture translaters chose the term 'Worship' and not 'Obeisance' when they came across the Greek word at that point? perhaps even they did not believe that someone would mis-interpret the meaning (the 'spirit' not the 'letter'!)
Hi JA,The New World Translation does indeed translate those occasions as “did obeisance” intead of “worshipped”. WJ has pointed out that it is the same Greek word as the one used for the worship of Jehovah. But, like you said, one must interpret the spirit of the meaning based on context, not just the letter.
And a little tidbit for WJ: He has challenged us to find in the Bible another who was “worshipped” besides Jesus or Jehovah. Check out 2 Samuel 1:
Quote 1 After the death of Saul, David returned from defeating the Amalekites and stayed in Ziklag two days. 2 On the third day a man arrived from Saul's camp, with his clothes torn and with dust on his head. When he came to David, he fell to the ground to pay him honor. Sounds like what happened to Jesus, but let's double check the definitions to make sure.
Quote wor·ship /ˈwɜrʃɪp/ Show Spelled [wur-ship]
–noun
1.reverent honor and homage paid to God or a sacred personage, or to any object regarded as sacred.
2.formal or ceremonious rendering of such honor and homage: They attended worship this morning.
3.adoring reverence or regard: excessive worship of business success.Looks to me like #3 fits what was done to both David and Jesus.
Now if this man could do obeisance to King David without thinking David was God, could it be possible that some did obeisance to Jesus without thinking he was God?
peace and love,
mikeMikeboll64………You have it right , What WJ is no considering is the those Apostles were Jew Israelites and would never have worshiped Jesus as another GOD, they would have been committing Idolatry by doing that, and they totally Knew Better then to do it, in there culture they would have been stoned to death, if they did that. IMO
peace and love to you and yours…………………….gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 07 2010,01:53) Mikeboll64………You have it right , What WJ is no considering is the those Apostles were Jew Israelites and would never have worshiped Jesus as another GOD, they would have been committing Idolatry by doing that, and they totally Knew Better then to do it, in there culture they would have been stoned to death, if they did that. IMO peace and love to you and yours…………………….gene
Hi Gene,Exactly! The apostles most likely grew up knowing The Law. They knew that God was going to send a Messiah, and that he would be called Mighty God. But never did God say it would be Himself in the flesh. And Jesus certainly never claimed to be God. And we know that the Holy Spirit only speaks what God tells him to, so it's unlikely that the Spirit told them that Jesus was God. So where in the world would these apostles have gotten the idea that Jesus was God?
peace and love,
mike
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