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Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 01 2010,15:23) Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 01 2010,15:13) What tradition Nick?
Hi LU,
You were explaining how ONLY BEGOTTEN relates to a son of promise but now withdraw that when it comes to Jesus?
Nick,
Jesus didn't have an older brother like Isaac so you can't compare the two. Their situations are like apples to oranges.Hi LU,
That justifies it completely?Why could Jesus not be a son of promise?
Because you would have to agree his sonship shown in Ps2 was prophetic?Nick,
His “sonship” as the other Davidic kings was a fulfillment of prophecy and in that particular “sonship,” He was one of many “sons,” Davidic kings. For example, Solomon was also prophecied about as a future Davidic King.1Ki 8:20
The Lord has kept the promise he made. 1 I have taken my father David’s place and have occupied the throne of Israel, as the Lord promised. I have built this temple for the honor 2 of the Lord God of Israel.
The Son is “monogenes” in one sense and “gennao” in a completely different sense. My conclusion is that the Son of God that was in the “monogenes” sense was in existence before God used Him to create through and was a literal son and only literal son ever.
Right Nick,
We cannot follow Him into a monogenes theos relationship but we can follow Him as being born from the dead and being begotten that way.Quote When he died did he remain such a god? Yes, always the monogenes theos.
Hi LU,
He is the firstborn from the dead and we can follow him.
We can follow him into his death and resurrection.[Rom6]
But he did not really die in your view then, am I right?Ok Nick,
My opinion is that the Son of God had a heavenly body before He came as a baby. At that point the Son of God gave up His heavenly body to take on an earthly body. For a period of 3 days, the Son of God was without a body and thus dead for three days. After three days, He again was contained within a body, this time a glorified body. The spirit apart from the body is dead. The spirit (inner person) of Jesus (the Son of God part) was separated from the body that contained Him.Hi LU,
So dying to you is just shedding a body?
Are we all like this?Eccl 12 says the spirit of man returns to God and he gave up his spirit too[Mt27.50]
Was he still alive by a personal godly spirit in your view or by the Spirit of his God?
Did he have three spirits?Nick
I think Jesus had two, we who are born again have two. The Spirit of the Father left Jesus' body and that is why Jesus said “Father, why did you forsake me,” and then after that, Jesus gave up His own inner person spirit (the Son of God part) into the hands of the Father. The Father placed that spirit within the glorified body three days later.My opinion
HHi LU,
You could not be more dead than Jesus was if so.
But God is faithful and never leaves or forsakes us despite how alone we may feelQuote (Lightenup @ Mar. 02 2010,07:21) If the Son of God was a created part of creation as a firstborn, then He would have had to come from a created being. He was not from a created being before all things were created through Him.
Hi Kathi,If your logic is correct, then to be created we would have had to come from a created being. We know God wasn't created and you say Jesus wasn't created, so what “created being” did we come from?
Sorry, but that makes no sense to me. For God to create a son, He would have had to be created Himself?
peace and love,
mikeHi LU,
The possible different origins of the Son of God is not relevant to his mission.Because of this distraction carnal folk forget he is a man, the Son of Adam, who came to show us the way of salvation. Instead they are tempted to worship him as some sort of demigod instead of listening to his advice.
He was anointed with the Holy Spirit and power and so must we be.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 01 2010,20:33) Hi LU,
The possible different origins of the Son of God is not relevant to his mission.Because of this distraction carnal folk forget he is a man, the Son of Adam, who came to show us the way of salvation. Instead they are tempted to worship him as some sort of demigod instead of listening to his advice.
He was anointed with the Holy Spirit and power and so must we be.
Hi Nick,
Well, not knowing the Son's origins just makes the Son a man, a prophet, that had a work to do for the Father and He faithfully did it. So did John the Baptist, Moses, etc. Jesus's work took 3 years, a little longer than John, but Moses had to lead the people for 40 years and there were a lot more than 12 regular followers. Missionaries now a days give up their comfortable life and even end up dying for a whole tribe of ignorant people involved in witchcraft. If Jesus was just a man like the rest of them who were also set apart for leading people to God and anointed for that purpose then how is it that his death gives us eternal life and not John the Baptist's death?Anyway, knowing the origins of the Son seemed to be pretty significant to understand according to Jesus and therefore, it should be important for us to understand too. Moses was the servant of God, Jesus was the servant and the Son of God. Moses obeyed his LORD, Jesus obeyed His Father.
John 17:8
8 for the words which You gave Me I have given to them; and they received them and truly understood that I came forth from You, and they believed that You sent Me.
NASUJohn 16:27-33
27 for the Father Himself loves you, because you have loved Me and have believed that I came forth from the Father.
28 “I came forth from the Father and have come into the world; I am leaving the world again and going to the Father.”
29 His disciples said, “Lo, now You are speaking plainly and are not using a figure of speech.
30 “Now we know that You know all things, and have no need for anyone to question You; by this we believe that You came from God.”
31 Jesus answered them, “Do you now believe?
32 “Behold, an hour is coming, and has already come, for you to be scattered, each to his own home, and to leave Me alone; and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with Me.
33 “These things I have spoken to you, so that in Me you may have peace. In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world.”
NASUMoses was sent but he didn't say that his father sent him, in fact, God told Moses what to say regarding who was sending him:
Ex 3:10-15
The Mission of Moses 10 “Therefore, come now, and I will send you to Pharaoh, so that you may bring My people, the sons of Israel, out of Egypt.”
11 But Moses said to God, “Who am I, that I should go to Pharaoh, and that I should bring the sons of Israel out of Egypt?”
12 And He said, “Certainly I will be with you, and this shall be the sign to you that it is I who have sent you: when you have brought the people out of Egypt, you shall worship God at this mountain.”
13 Then Moses said to God, “Behold, I am going to the sons of Israel, and I will say to them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you.' Now they may say to me, 'What is His name?' What shall I say to them?”
14 God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM”; and He said, “Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.'”
15 God, furthermore, said to Moses, “Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'The Lord, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.' This is My name forever, and this is My memorial-name to all generations.
NASUSo, the disciples of Jesus truly understood where he was from but you don't seem to and you don't even think that it is important enough to know. You think that seeking understanding of His origins is simply distracting us. Hmmmm. Why don't you do a Bible study on how many times Jesus talked about where He was from and then tell us if Jesus thought it to be important or not.
Hi LU,
Conjecture about the origins of the Son of man has led carnal men to worship him distracting from his mission which was to draw men to the one true God through him.Paul tore his clothes when the same thing happened to him.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 01 2010,20:01) Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 02 2010,07:21) If the Son of God was a created part of creation as a firstborn, then He would have had to come from a created being. He was not from a created being before all things were created through Him.
Hi Kathi,If your logic is correct, then to be created we would have had to come from a created being. We know God wasn't created and you say Jesus wasn't created, so what “created being” did we come from?
Sorry, but that makes no sense to me. For God to create a son, He would have had to be created Himself?
peace and love,
mike
Mike,
You are not following my thoughts accurately. If the Lord gives me words that make it simpler, then I will post you. Begotten is one after the same kind.Kathi
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 02 2010,15:26) Hi LU,
Conjecture about the origins of the Son of man has led carnal men to worship him distracting from his mission which was to draw men to the one true God through him.Paul tore his clothes when the same thing happened to him.
Nick,
Jesus never told us to not know His origins…that is your desire, not Jesus'. Jesus never tore His clothes, did he? Follow Jesus.The Jews were introduced to others by their origins, i.e. Paul from Tarsus, or who their father was, i.e. James the son of Zebedee, etc.
Do you believe that James was the actual true son of Zebedee or is that a problem for you too?Hi LU,
So you get the point and understand the issue?Neither kill nor worship the messenger.
True worshippers worship the Father.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 02 2010,12:33) Hi LU,
The possible different origins of the Son of God is not relevant to his mission.Because of this distraction carnal folk forget he is a man, the Son of Adam, who came to show us the way of salvation. Instead they are tempted to worship him as some sort of demigod instead of listening to his advice.
He was anointed with the Holy Spirit and power and so must we be.
Nick………..Now that is exactly right, except it is very important because this belief of Jesus Preexistence , give cause to false worship and distorts the truth of GOD. Giving Jesus a different origin then us is very damaging, with regards to the truth of GOD. It might be one of the worst false teachings there is with the exception of the Doctrine of the Trinity and the doctrine of PREEXISTENCE ties right in with it and supports it. It is a damnable Heresy and discredits GOD the FATHER as the (ONLY) GOD and CREATOR of (ALL) Things. IMOpeace and love to you and your……………gene
gene
you not only not accepte the scriptures,but you stampete on it,
Jesus answered, “You are right in saying I am a king. In fact, for this reason I was born, and for this I came into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone on the side of truth listens to me.”
Jn 18:36 Jesus said, “My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jews. But now my kingdom is from another place.”
Jn 17:24 “Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.
Jn 17:6 “I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word.
Jn 17:7 Now they know that everything you have given me comes from you.
Jn 17:8 For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me.
Jn 17:9 I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours.
Jn 17:10 All I have is yours, and all you have is mine. And glory has come to me through them.
Jn 17:11 I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name—the name you gave me—so that they may be one as we are one.
Jn 17:12 While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.
Jn 17:13 “I am coming to you now, but I say these things while I am still in the world, so that they may have the full measure of my joy within them.
Jn 17:14 I have given them your word and the world has hated them, for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world.
Jn 17:15 My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one.
Jn 17:16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of it.
Jn 17:17 Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth.
Jn 17:18 As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world.
Jn 17:19 For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified.
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